I must admit that when I first learned President Obama stated the “we do not see ourselves as a Christian nation” I was quite distressed. Why would he say this during Holy Week while in a predominately Muslim nation?
I kept asking myself, what was the point? The two conclusions my feeble mind deduced is he is either pandering or he is making a proclamation.
Pandering
Was he just pandering to the Muslims, Agnostics, Atheists, secularists, etc? This is certainly possible. He spent most of the week in Europe pandering by apologizing for American arrogance. His perception not mine!
If this was the case, again what was the point? Are the militant Muslims going to like us better? Are the radical atheists and secularists going to exhibit less vitriol towards Christianity?
The President is more naïve than even I think he is, if he believes making this statement will help us to all just get along.
Why would he feel the need to downplay his nation’s historical roots? This is a nation that was settled by those seeking religious freedom. And yes, almost all of those early settlers seeking religious freedom were some form of Christian sect.
Religious freedom is, or at least has been constitutionally protected in the United States! Although Christians in America are being increasingly tread upon.
We need not look to far and wide in many Muslim countries to understand there is an extreme lack of religious freedom and tolerance. In many of these countries they will persecute and perhaps kill you if you are another faith. Muslim sects will kill each other over their beliefs.
I know you secularists and atheists are jumping up and down saying centuries ago Christians have persecuted and killed non-believers and those of varying Christian sects. There is no denying that historical fact. But it has not been the case in the United States of America!
If President Obama was pandering what did he hope to accomplish? Share with me your thoughts.
Proclamation
My other thought is Obama was making a Presidential Proclamation. Declaring to all the world that the United States was not a Christian nation. This has no historical basis, and would serve as a departure.
Albeit, it is a departure that has been building for the past couple of generations.It reminds me of the Emancipation Proclamation. This nation struggled with the scourge of slavery for two or three generations. President Lincoln finally ended slavery with his proclamation.
President Lincoln’s proclamation was just and long overdue. If President Obama statement was a proclamation I feel tread upon!
I know, I know you secularist and atheists out there are again jumping up and down out there. You are screaming how it is just not true that most of the founding fathers were not Christians. But this is simply not true!
Let’s just lift a few quotes, as a representative sampling, from those that are considered deists or secularists:
John Adams: “ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.” • “[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.” –John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress
Benjamin Franklin: “ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech
John Jay: “ Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.” Source: October 12, 1816. The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay,
Thomas Jefferson:
“ The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”
“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”
"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."
James Madison:
“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]`
Excerpt from Supreme Court Ruling Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States, 143 U.S. 457 (1892)
“But, beyond all these matters, no purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation, state or national, because this is a religious people. This is historically true.”
For those you that still doubt Christianity in America let me invite you to this site from the Library of Congress.Click Here.
If this was a Presidential Proclamation then I reject it. I will not be tread upon. It’s time for the Christian community to rise up and not take it any more. What do you think?
Happy Easter, from a citizen that does consider this a Christian nation.
Thanks for putting this video clip on your blog. I've been hearing all sorts of things about Obama saying "We do not see ourselves as a Christian Nation". Now that I've heard the clip, I don't know what the big deal about it is. It sounds to me that he is saying we are don't have one faith in the country and everyone has a right to their own beliefs. He's not saying anything about our founding fathers and their beliefs. America is made of of all types of people with all types of beliefs and we are FREE to believe what we choose, which is not the case in some other countries. At least that's my take on the point he was trying to make.
We are one nation under God. I am a Christian. But i do not want to be part of a Christian Nation. Because that might mean a political shift could make me part of a , lets say Hindu nation. So we can be a nation of Christians but not the other way around. I tink that was the message
Tony, that is true, religious tolerance is one of the great virtues of this country. My point is two fold. What was the point? Was is pandering or a proclamation or something else. So far, no one has advanced any other reason for him to bring it up.
Thank you Gary, for providing some real perspective! I have to agree with the voices of the other commentators. This nation was founded with the basic idea of separation of church and state. The guiding principal is Freedom of Religion, not freedom for Christians, Muslims, Protestants or any other specific religious preference.
Why did he say anything about this? If you saw the whole dialogue, the issue being discussed was referring to how and why America wants to establish peaceful relationships with Turkey and other eastern countries. There are some Middle Eastern zealots that believe America wants to destroy their religious foundations, and impose Christianity upon them, and Pres. Obama was addressing that very issue. I am now leaving the spin zone. Have fun!
Jay, My only surprise is that anyone is surprised. Obama.s allegiance is certainly not to this nation. At least not in the form in which we have survived the first 233 years.
Jay, please stop to remember this country was founded on freedom of religion. It was not founded on Christian tenet. Most of the founding fathers were not christian. So why the big deal? We are now a country of christians, moslems, buddhists, hindu, agnostics, athiests. We are NOT a christian nation. So why is it so important that we say it is or try to make it so?
Hugh, read my comment to Jay. Why do you keep insisting this country was founded on christianity when in fact we all know it was founded on freedom from christianity, or at least the form of christianity that was dictated to the people who left England to come here to worship as they pleased.
Jenny, glad you were able to view the video. My real point is why say anything. This is just more of the "if we play nice our enemies will like us". That is a grave miscalculation.
Additionally I'm tired of the secularist revising history. They have been and are propagating lies.
Charlie, you may have a good point. As fast as our foundations are being crumbled who know what will happen next. I saw a poll this week that only 53% favored capitalism as the preferred economic system. Over 20% preferred socialism and 29% were not sure.
Gary, my guess is you are new here. If so, welcome aboard. My view if Active Rain that it is a community. There are groups you can join and post relevant topics to those groups. Like this post which went to two Christian groups, two political groups and group for the state in which I live.
You can write what you want, read what you want and comment on what you want.
It's a beautiful thing.
Again welcome and I hope you enjoy your experience.
Jay - I think a more telling phrase came near the end when he defined us as a "secular" nation. In that statement he is attempting to take the country away from the religious and spiritual persuasions of the founders and the impacs of those persuasions on developing the constitution and laws of this country.
Granted, he did mention "a secular nation that respects the religious beliefs" however, his words and actions show little respect, i.e. And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion...
It is a subtle proclamation of how little he really views values that are not consistent with his own, and those of the secular left and right (yes, there are secularists on the right also).
Michael, I don't believe the radical Muslims are worried about Christians of America imposing religion on them. Quite to the contrary. It is the militant Muslims that intend to kill those that don't believe the same as them.
Do we really think these pandering words have any effect on their desire to annihilate both Christians and Jews? No way.
In America, we are free to pursue any religion that seems good to us. In Muslim countries, at least in modern times, that is not really an option. Turkey is much more open minded than the majority of Muslim nations and that is why they have a shot at joining The European Union. It is reactionary to think that President Obama is putting down Christianity or pandering to Turkey. He is being diplomatic and friendly. Something we haven't done very well the last eight years.
Terry, you really need to read the writings of the signers of the Declaration of Independence and the members of the Constitutional Convention. Freedom of religion yes. To say that this country was not founding on Christian tenets is, frankly unbelievable. Judeao-Christian principles are exactly what this country was founded on. I'm certain you would like to have that statement back. Again, if you read the writings of those involved in our founding you can't help but come away with the certainty that the overwhelming majority were Christian.
Please click on the link to the Library of Congress for your proof. Hardly a group of right wing Christian zealots.
You've bought into the lies of the secular revisionists. That is sad.
I'm proud that Obama made the religious truth about our free nation known. It is neither pandering nor proclamation, just a simple observation that lets the world know that all are welcome here regardless of belief.
I find it curious how you and others like pulling quotes from past presidents that you feel denounce the separation of church and state. Thomas Jefferson also said, "Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man." Obama would never say such a thing, so be thankful he's leaving room for everyone. It is one of our founding distinctions for which we should all (Christian, Muslim, Jewish and atheists, etc) be proud.
Jay - We aren't a Christian Nation. We aren't a Muslim Nation. We aren't a Jewish Nation. We aren't a Scientology Nation. Freedom of Religion seems a wonderful thing. You have freedom to chose it or freedom from it. That's the way it should be. As far as writing, "Obama intends to remake the United States in his own image."... kind of a stretch, don't you think?
It would be much better if the quote Jennifer presented were complete and put into context, This was a specific statement to Joseph Priestly, and it is expressing a sentiment somewhat akin to Jesus in the temple with pharisees and the money changers.
The full quote ""Those who live by mystery and charlatanerie, fearing you would render them useless by simplifying the Christian philosophy - the most sublime and benevolent, but most perverted system that ever shone on man - endeavored to crush your well-earned and well-deserved fame."
He was not calling Christianity, in itself, perverted but rather those that have twisted it as well as the results of that twisting.
Jefferson, while a Deist and not a Christian, recognized the influence of God on man, he was definitely a proponent of freedom of religious expression. However, he was not an advocate of secularism, as such.
Mike, yes it is a telling statement. The secularists have been revising our culture in earnest, now going on three generations.
It was a statement that will have no effect among the militant Muslims. I therefore, view it as a Proclamation. It is a proclamation the I reject and will resist.
Israel, this is the same Turkey that as a member of NATO that would not allow our troops to station an invasion force on their soil or fly over their airspace for the 2nd Gulf War. And why, they are terrified of the radical elements of Islam and for good reason.
Pandering, and yes that is what it was (he pandered the entire trip) will have no effect on those that call for the total annihilation of the country that has your namesake.
Mike, a deist is NOT a christian! Most of the founding fathers were deists.
Jay, once again, founded on Judeo-Christian does not mean this country has been, or should be Christian. What you are saying is exactly what people are saying against Islamic countries, that those countries should not be governed by Sharia law. Again I ask you WHY is it so important to you that we as a country be Christian? If we ever were, we certainly are not now, as commented by Jennifer and others. Kinda insults all the Jews we have in this country don't you think? BTW I haven't bought into anything. I went to school, listened to the history lessons and formed my own opinion based on the facts presented in the history books. I have never in my life thought this country should be Christian or any other religion. We are a melting pot of many religions, as was intended. One of the reasons YOU are able to worship as you please is because of the intentions of the founding fathers. Had that not happened YOU would probably be observing whatever religion the government said you had to observe.
Hugh, what does that passage from Chronicles have to do with this conversation? Nowhere in the Bible does it say "the United States of America Shall Be A Christian Nation."
Israel,- I am also Happy for freedom of Religion, it gives me the right to work as hard as I can for Christianity. I know I can never convince everyone to see it my way but I will die trying.
Terry~ It was the passage Ronald Reagan chose when he was sworn in and during these troubled times I think it is a fitting verse you should read it what could it hurt.
Jay~ sorry if I got things worked up but Holy Week is an emotional time for me
Terry - it was obvious that you were so eager to make another attempt at proving me wrong you failed to read what I wrote Jefferson, while a Deist and not a Christian,....
And without diggin a lot deeper I would hesitate to state that most, or even many, of the founding fathers were of any type of religion. However, I do know that, by their writings, they had a strong belief system, in God, that influenced their lives and policies.
Jennifer, it is the first amendment that makes it abundantly clear that all are welcome here regardless of religious belief. We shouldn’t need Barack Obama to inform them of that. Can we say the same of the Iranians or Saudi’s?
You are the first to offer an explanation other than pandering or proclaiming, that being an observation. Here are my observations. This week Newsweek reported that 75% of our population identified themselves as Christian. Today I saw a Gallup poll that indicated 44% go to church almost every week.
Regardless, we are a Christian nation. This is not the same as a Christian Theocracy. Iran, on the other hand is a Muslim Theocracy.
Well I’m off to church I will be back.
Jay
I found it to be a very inclusionary comment. We're not an [insert your religion here] nation. Whatever religion you belong to - or if you don't have religious beliefs - that's your private, personal business. The country is all of ours. And keeping religion out of government is not treading on anyone's religious beliefs. There's church and there's state. I was proud of President Obama for his statement.
Jason, I don't think it is a stretch for Obama. It seems every week that goes by I find myself shaking my head and thinking I never thought I would live to see this.
Mike, I'm not convinced as to what Jefferson was. I do understand that the Sunday after his infamous letter where he penned "separation of church and state" he attended church services that were held at the Capital. In fact he regularly attended church at the Capital during his Presidency. It just doesn't add up to me.
Terry,why is it important to you that we not be considered Christian. Again even Newsweek, this week stated that 75% of the population identify themselves as Christian. That's 3 out of 4, sounds pretty Christian to me.
I am insulted that Obama would even bring it up. That he would bring it up in a Muslim nation. Yes, I call Turkey a Muslim nation because the population is predominately Islamic. I'm further insulted that the timing of this was during Holy Week.
Was he pandering or proclaiming. Or can you advance another theory?
Mike, I think the digging deeper is exactly what needs to be done. The secular revisionists are taking one passage and labeling a founder as X. But upon closer inspection you find an overwhelming number of writings going the exact opposite way.
The problem is the secularists control education and the media and they shape what people believe.
If we want the truth we must did it out ourselves.
Jay, I can't believe you're asking me that question? If you weren't would you want to be considered a christian? Its insulting to other religions to lump them in with the christian population. Please answer my question, WHY is it so important to you that we be considered a christian nation? Because you are a christian and thats the way YOU want it? I would say of the Newsweek poll, if someone is not affiliated with one of those other "scary" religions, but also one is not really a practicing christian, then one would probably answer the poll saying they are christian. Actually I saw another poll last week that had those number substantially lower. I'm sorry Obama "insulted" you when he spoke the truth. If this planet is ever going to get along, we must all recognize the diverse differences. His statement about this country not being christian was accurate. We are not, unless of course you would prefer we outlaw all other religions.
Terry, I asked you that question because I wanted to surface the answer you gave. You are not a Christian and you resent those of us who are.
In this country today we want to talk about tolerance, we are so afraid to offend, and we are conscious not to denigrate every group but one.
It is open season on Christians. Lack of tolerance OK. Offend them that is fine. Go ahead and denegrate them for their beliefs. Push them out of public life and restrict their ability to speak why not.
I could go on and on. I for one to not intend to take it any more. I will fight, with words, the secular revisionists.
Excuse me Jay, your insulting comments about my religious convictions are one of the reasons this country is having heated discussions right now. How dare you belittle my belief system? In fact at no time did I indicate to you what i believe or don't believe other than people do not have the right to force their belief system on others! However, apparently because I disagree with you about making this country christian, I must be a heathen. Honestly Jay, you're telling me I'm intolerant against christians, when you in fact are having a problem with "your" religion not being recognized as the religion of state. My tolerance far exceeds yours because I am willing to allow all people of all faiths to worship as they please, as the founding fathers intended, without having to do so under a waving christian flag.
It is open season on Christians. Lack of tolerance OK. Offend them that is fine. Go ahead and denegrate them for their beliefs. Push them out of public life and restrict their ability to speak why not. How can you say that with a straight face? It seems to me, Moslems are the ones who had to go into hiding after 9/11. Seems to me Moslems are the ones who have been shunned and ridiculed. Seems to me there is still hatred toward the Jews in this country. If there is a backlash against christians its probably because we are all getting tired of hearing your spin on what we should believe and how we should worship. Please Jay, you've always seemed to be a reasonable person, answer my question WHY is it so important to you that we be a christian nation? I would imagine were you a Jew that question would be moot.
This is no surprise. Obama showed us some of his true colors before he got elected. Buddying up with Reverend Wright. America is getting what it deserves for putting a left-wing radical into the White House.
Our nation was founded not on Christian principles but on Enlightenment ones.
In 1797 our government concluded a "Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli, or Barbary," now known simply as the Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11 of the treaty contains these words:
As the Government of the United States...is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion--as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity of Musselmen--and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
This document was endorsed by Secretary of State Timothy Pickering and President John Adams. It was then sent to the Senate for ratification; the vote was unanimous. It is worth pointing out that although this was the 339th time a recorded vote had been required by the Senate, it was only the third unanimous vote in the Senate's history. There is no record of debate or dissent. The text of the treaty was printed in full in the Philadelphia Gazette and in two New York papers, but there were no screams of outrage, as one might expect today.
Jay, did you delete my last comment here? The one where I asked you if you were other than christian would you be wanting this country to be called christian?
Mitchell, good research!
We are a country that is of many faiths and many traditions and we are able to live as we do because of our Great Constitution which Obama and Liberals in power are trying to throw out the window.
As One Angry Man.com states
Barack Obama's legacy will be that he shocked a sleeping Nation awake and they realized they could no longer let their government run on auto-pilot.
Put your hands in the air and your feet in the street Christian Americans. A good place to start is the upcoming Tea parties going on around the Country on April 15th.
Jay, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. In this case, the art of diplomacy we've not engaged in for so many years is taken as an affront to Christianity by some. Not surprising, considering we are so out of practice.
Inna, so if I get your comment this is just diplomatic speak. OK, accepting that, then it would be targeted to "normal" Muslims. It will not have any effect on radical Islam. To the extent this helps the day to day Muslim to help root out the radicals OK. Time will tell.
I do question additional actions this week. He goes to Georgetown Univ, a Jesuit school, to deliver a speech. Then asks them to cover a Christian symbol. Which they do. Why go there if he is not comfortable with their heritage. Coincidence or pattern.
Jay - I was simply saying that each percieves things said by others through the many filters they acquired over the years. Cigar is just a cigar, but no one is capable of truly seeing it as such. It's a philosophical impossibility to not read into stuff, hence any argument for objectivity is inherently wrong. Of course the degrees of our predispositions towards seeing things our way vary from person to person, and group to group. At the end of the day, the ones fartherst removed from center (as you'd call 'normal') turn into extremists. My not so humble and not in the least objective opinion, of course.
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those seeking religious freedom. And yes, almost all of those early settlers seeking religious freedom were some form of Christian sect.
I know you secularists and atheists are jumping up and down saying centuries ago Christians have persecuted and killed non-believers and those of varying Christian sects. There is no denying that historical fact. But it has not been the case in the United States of America!
proclamation I feel tread upon!
John Jay
If this was a Presidential Proclamation then I reject it. I will not be 
;)
;)
Jay, One nation under God, not a certain religious belief or category. This allows for everyone to have their own belief. This is my interpretation.