Ar_home_b_search
 

Slide showing proposed changes to the language in NAR Rules regarding scraping vs. indexing from 2009 NAR Midyear Meetings.

photo courtesy of PhoenixREGuy

I hate writing this post.

I feel angry, frustrated, and annoyed that I am doing this post.  I shouldn't have to.  For those of you that have been following along with the recent decision by MIBOR (Metropolitan Indianapolis Board Of Realtors®) to send everything back to committee (again).  If you haven't been following, these articles will help bring you up to speed:

AgentGenius - Did Google Scrape My Website? You Be The Judge. Rules Threaten Realtors & IDX Providers. - Paula Henry

ActiveRain - Is Google A Scraper Site? - Missy Caulk

AgentGenius - NAR Responds in DC - The MLS Committee to recommend Google policy change - Paula Henry

AgentGenius - MIBOR Blocks Change, NAR Committee Agrees- Politics Beats Agents In DC - Benn Rosales

Does MIBOR's decision affect me?

There are several issues at play here and I think most of them affect each on of us directly.  First, is the issue of scraping vs. indexing.  It's a no brainer in my book.  My sellers want their house sold.  I want it sold.  I don't care about dual-agency.  Getting their listing in every corner of the internet is my goal.  My goal is not to advertise myself.  That comes naturally.  When I sell houses, my reputation increases.  I do not need to control my data so that no one else can do my advertising for me.  I know some people disagree with this rationale, but I do not.  I am all for the idea that my listings can be brought to your site via IDX.  And if your IDX solution is indexable, more power to you.  You've just added all your visitors eyeballs to my listing.  They might not have found it through my efforts, but now they have.  I sell the house and me and my sellers win.  The idea of Google being a "scraper" is just flat out absurd.  Google is a search engine (if you don't know the history of search engines, read this) and although on the web sever level its functionality may look just like scraping, it is clear that it's not scraping our sites for nefarious purposes.

Mr. and Mrs. Smith Go To Washington.

At the request of NAR, Paula Henry (the agent directly affected by the MIBOR decision) and Jay Thompson were sent to Washington to represent their opinions to the MLS Committee at NAR's Midyear Meetings.  They did and from all accounts, they did it well.  I applaud the efforts of Todd Carpenter, Hilary Marsh, and Cliff Niersbach to make this reality.  By seeing the need for a dialog and allowing it to happen, they certainly helped boost my opinion of NAR.  Even if they were just paying lip service to the outrage that was being bantered about on the various blogs and Twitter (which I don't think they were doing) at least there were some gains.  Of course, the announcement came that Jay and Paula had been successful in convincing the committee and the agents that had followed along couldn't have been more thrilled.

MIBOR puts its foot down.

After the gains were celebrated (and believe me, everyone knew there was still more road to travel to full success), MIBOR turned the agent world on its head by deferring the decision back to committee.  NAR agreed and now there won't be any word on this until November.  I am of the opinion that MIBOR got its feelings hurt by an agent standing up to them and knew what they were doing when they deferred to the committee (after the committee had just recommended changes to the Board Of Directors).  In effect, they have moved the issue off the table (for now) and allowed themselves to save face.  They weren't defeated by an agent (Paula) with the backing of her peers.  Now while I'm sure MIBOR would not frame this as I have, I really believe this is nothing more than a case of a child having a temper tantrum for not getting their way.

Where do we go from here?

I know agents like Paula and Jay have seen a new light in their lives.  They both dropped everything to wage a battle in our names and fly to D.C. to help make change come to NAR.  I'm proud of both of them for their actions and words.  I admit, I have been rather inspired by this and my own personal involvement in it and I have decided to become more involved in the politics of NAR, TAR (Texas Association Of Realtors®), and SABOR (San Antonio Board Of Realtors®).  For the record, I hate politics.  But, if it means the difference between having the ability to run my business my way and having to deal with the decisions of others, I would rather jump into the fray and take a few bruises for myself and my fellow agents.  As it states in my profile here on ActiveRain:

I not only hope to help my clients, but other agents as well*, because I believe that the better we are as a whole in San Antonio, the better we can all serve our clients.  I continue to further my education, not just for my mandatory licensing requirements, but because I want to know more.  The more we know, the better we can serve our clients and help each other out.

*emphasis added

The question is, what are you going to do to help make the associations work how we want them to work?  We all disagree on many things, but from my reading over the past few weeks, I know one thing - we all seem to think there's room for improvement and change.  I have already reached out to several Realtors® at the local and state level requesting information on joining committees and volunteering my time to make San Antonio a better place to participate in a real estate transaction.  If I can help locally, I can move to make change nationally.

Please comment on the issue on Realtor.org (thanks to Missy Caulk for the tip to the post).  Comments are moderated and will take awhile to appear, but it's a great place to make sure your voice is heard (although I know NAR has been monitoring the posts associated with issue quite a lot over the past week or so).  I'd rather see comments over there than here, so if you don't have time to comment on both, please go to Realtor.org first.

All content ©2008-2010 by Matt Stigliano unless otherwise noted.

 Matt Stigliano, Realtor® Becker Properties | (210) 646-HOME | www.RErockstar.com

"Your all access pass to San Antonio real estate."

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76 Comments on The "Google Is A Scraper" Saga Continues.

MAY
17
2009
732,170 Points 144 Featured Posts Outside Blog Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

What's going on with all this man? I've heard in other markets that local boards are being told the same thing.

11:33am • #1
848,852 Points 153 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Hit Router Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

Matt, there is now a post up on the Realtor.org site where they are asking for comments on NAR passing the ball back.

Everyone NEEDS  to go there and comment ASAP.

11:35am • #2
Localism Sponsor

I will go and visit the link...thanks Missy..great post Matt

11:49am • #3
4 Featured Posts

I am on my way to Realtor.org to make my voice heard!

Thank you all for fighting the good fight!

- Harrison

11:58am • #4
320,285 Points 5 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Great attitude and blog and Im right there with you on most of this. I will head over and make my position known as well.

12:04pm • #5
269,874 Points 59 Featured Posts Outside Blog Called Shot Master

Greg - That's what makes this all so important.  One boards decision can affect us all.  I sure hope SABOR doesn't go with the flow and I will be monitoring the situation here.

Missy - Excellent link!  Thank you.  As you can guess, I've just come back from voicing my opinion.  Everyone reading my blog should immediately head over there and make your voice heard.  When I have a second, I will update the post to add this link in case it is missed in the comments section.

Anne and Eddie - Thanks.  I do hope you go and leave your comments.  This is a huge decision that can (and I fear will) affect us all.

Harrison - And thanks to you for joining in and putting your voice out there!  It wasn't that long ago that I felt I was just one guy...not anymore.  I see I am part of a larger whole and I will do what I can to make that whole better.

 

12:04pm • #6
4 Featured Posts

If you ask me, all of this is a clear sign of lack of understanding of the internet by a lot of people and is a huge waste of time.  I can however agree that MLS systems need to be protected against "hacking" and the seller for sake of privacy should be given the option to not disclose address or web advertising at all.  On the other hand, the arguments being presented do not really seem to having anything to do with either of those to items and seem to be more driven by competitive reasons.  And if an IDX system which an individual pays for and gets approval from an Association to have gains them more exposure on the internet, then so be it.  In the world of competition, you learn what the competition is doing and do it better.  For argument sake, one could then make the argument that Realtors can not blog, use enhanced listings, email campaigns, meta tags, website systems which allow for sharing of properties for sale, so forth and so on.  All of which can contribute to increased web exposure.

 

 

12:06pm • #7
5 Featured Posts

Hullo Matt - great post - as a web developer with a very large agent client base, I'm watching this one closely. Many of my agent clients are IDX users, for many of the reasons you've mentioned, but also because, let's be honest, not everyone has a ton (if any) listings and IDX is an affordable method to keep site content current and increase revenue potential with dual-agency.

What I find somewhat bemusing about the who "scraper or not" discussion is that, to some degree, it should be irrelevant. In order to "spider" a site, which the bigger search engines do, the (to all intents and purposes), load a "text" version of each page and "crawl" it. It is a form of scraping, but it's the only way to index a site, short of relying only on site maps or criteria submitted by the author for the search engine dictionaries.

My take in this is that, "scraped" or not shouldn't matter, the fundemental question is a referendum on whether IDX is "technically legal" and listings being in search engines at all. If this question isn't established and ruled upon then, as technology changes and other site indexing methods are developed, this question is going to crop up time and again.

Cheers,

Dave

PS - I am concerned that regulating this sort of thing beyond the "privacy protection" of the sellers is going to result in a level of regulation and control from professional organizations that risk stifling any form of (marketing) creativity on the part of agents.

12:10pm • #8
1,226,938 Points 262 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Hit Router Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

Brother Matt...

I just wrote a new listing 10 minutes ago... and new language has JUST been added with checkboxes to "opt out" of Internet marketing on three levels! So, how is the consumer benefiting from this? I just don't see it.

12:12pm • #9
483,320 Points 1 Featured Post Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

Hi Matt,  Thanks for the update.  This looks like a long and rough road.

12:24pm • #10
260,424 Points 10 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

Matt - great article. Very well put. Missy - thanks for the link. I'll be visiting it next.

Matt - Back to your article. I couldn't agree with you more. That is why I am trying to get involved in my Association. I just submitted an application to become the Secretary for the Sierra Nevada Association of Realtors (SNAR). (You gotta start somewhere, right?) I figured I'd get my feet wet in that role, and get more involved. The RE/MAX Office I work in has over 6 past Presidents of our Association and a member of our local MLS Board Trustees. I'd run for that too if I could. (I'm actually just waiting for an announcement that they're looking for volunteers.)

I believe as you do that any exposure is good exposure for my sellers, but I also want to be involved so that I can have a say in my "destiny" as a real estate agent. Great post.

12:25pm • #11
152,860 Points 5 Featured Posts

Protectionism of information does not help our industry's effectiveness, and it negatively affects consumers' perception of our profession.  Beyond protecting a client's personal information, more information for the public is always the best answer.  A more educated client is a better starting point for all of us.

Clients don't want to hire us on the basis of how much information we've already held back from them.  They want us to help them understand the process as much as possible.

12:32pm • #12
Localism Sponsor

Sam makes a good point and I can't help but think that its fear that drives people from withholding information. Regardless, the more open our sharing of information is, the better it ultimately is for the consumer. At least that's my .02. Thanks for brining the issue to light.

12:36pm • #13
269,874 Points 59 Featured Posts Outside Blog Called Shot Master

Kathy - I'm not so sure I view it simple as an issue of competition.  I work hard to move up the rankings, but this (for me) is more about getting a seller's home sold.  I don't care who brings me the buyer, I just want my listing sold for the benefit of my client.  IDX helps move me towards that goal.  Indexing allows it on a bigger scale.  If my "competitor" sells my listing because of their IDX being indexed, I am not losing - I am gaining a sale for my clients.  Unless I insist on dual agency in all of my listings and that's all I care about in life (which I don't), I can't see why I would be against the idea of indexing.  Of course, many agents out there want nothing more than to "pick up both sides" - for them, I can see where this would be detrimental for them.  Of course, I think that clashes with our responsibility to our clients.

Dave - NAR made it clear that the scrapers and search engines were basically performing the same function, but what they did with it was the difference.  That difference is what made new language in the rule necessary (although I think the original interpretation that started all this was flawed if you looked at the rule with a dose of common sense - ie, Google is not a malevolent scraper site).

Brother Richard - I do think the consumer should have every right to have a say in whether their home is all over the internet or not.  It's their home after all.  Of course, if a seller wanted to tie my internet marketing hands behind my back, I'm afraid I'd have to walk away.

Bill - Well it's at least 6 months long thanks to the latest news.

12:38pm • #14
179,006 Points 13 Featured Posts

Good post, I like this sentence, "For the record, I hate politics.  But, if it means the difference between having the ability to run my business my way and having to deal with the decisions of others, I would rather jump into the fray and take a few bruises for myself and my fellow agents".

I think the problem we have in Washington is that there are too many people that actually do like politics and have no desire in actually making a difference.

12:39pm • #15

yabba dabba doooooooooooo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zX53PVe8Rck

12:39pm • #16
269,874 Points 59 Featured Posts Outside Blog Called Shot Master

Laura - Somehow I missed you, my apologies.  I look forward to seeing what you post on Realtor.org.

Christianne - Thank you.  I feel in this case, I'm just a reporter spreading the news to those that may not have seen it yet.  Missy knows me well, had she held back with that link for fear of upsetting me with links, I would have pushed her to get it up here right away.  I'm thrilled to hear that you're seeking to get involved.  It's not easy.  As I mentioned at one point during the AgentGenius discussions, I would jump on the NAR MLS Committee tomorrow if I could, but unfortunately, I do not have the experience they are looking for.  So I'm looking to get it elsewhere.  I am still a very young (in terms of licensed time) Realtor® and I know I am not the expert of the ins and outs on our various associations and boards, so I'm going to learn as much as I can and keep taking little steps forward.  Luckily, I have a lot of great, knowledgable friends who have schooled me time and time again on the issues.

While we're on the subject, if any of you ever want to post a link in my comments, please do - as long as they are relevant to the conversation I encourage it.

Sam - "Beyond protecting a client's personal information, more information for the public is always the best answer."  Exactly.  I'll comment separately on your Zillow post, I have opinions on that too (shocking, eh?).

Ronnie - If you read through the comments of the first AgentGenius post by Paula Henry on the issue, you'll see the "fear" that caused some of this to happen.

12:49pm • #17
269,874 Points 59 Featured Posts Outside Blog Called Shot Master

Mark - I have always been of the opinion that many people who get into politics get into it for the wrong reasons.  Or they get into with the right intentions, but wind up giving up.  Politics and policy making are not easy tasks.  I'm sure as I take my first steps into it, I will get discouraged and frustrated by a lot that I see, but if I just sit on the sidelines and whine, I'm not really helping any either.

Lee - Not quite sure what you're trying to say there, but "Wiiiiiiiillllllllllllmmmmmmmmmmmmma!" right back at you.

1:01pm • #18
548,980 Points 110 Featured Posts Outside Blog Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

Matt...

I finished typing my comment and then erased it. There's so much I want to say but I better hush :)

TLW...ROAR!

1:03pm • #19
412,493 Points 1 Featured Post

I will check this out, thanks for the head's up on this today.

Patricia Aulson/Portsmouth NH Real Estate

1:08pm • #20
269,874 Points 59 Featured Posts Outside Blog Called Shot Master

TLW - I too know the pain of losing a great comment that took too long to write.  Of course, I also know you're very opinionated, so I beg you, retype it!  I'd love to see your thoughts.

1:08pm • #21
269,874 Points 59 Featured Posts Outside Blog Called Shot Master

Patricia - It's a lot of reading, but I highly recommend it.  As always, the comments add a lot to the story, so I encourage everyone to read those as well.  It will take awhile, but it will be enlightening to say the least.

1:10pm • #22
548,980 Points 110 Featured Posts Outside Blog Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

Matt...

I erased it on purpose. My opinions have a way of getting me in trouble :)

Let me think about it. Maybe I'll find a way forward that won't put too much of a hurtin' on me :)

TLW...ROAR!

1:18pm • #23
415,283 Points 22 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Matt - I can not fathom a seller saying to me that they only want me nobody else to bring them a buyer (as their listing agents). How is it going to help the seller to limit the exposure. I do feel as well that this all was started not to benefit the seller but the listing agent in question. Now wonder how the seller would feel if the agent was blocking the exposure. I could see a seller suing the agent for not getting them the max exposure possible. I too am very concerned there is so much going on. Our site does get indexed by google (same guys who did Paula's site). Unfortunately I wouldn't be surprised if our area would move to similar way. What this tells me that there is so much that need to be address and changed, or more so move to the current times. I also feel that so many are still trying to hoard the information where it really needs to get out to the potential sellers and buyers and benefit them to the fullest. ~Rita

1:20pm • #24
4 Featured Posts

Here is my response on Realtor.org:

Our business has made so much progress over the last decade when it comes to working in the best interest of the consumer, and this situation has moved us all 10 steps backwards.

What makes this even worse?

The fact is that our industry has been dragged through the mud during this economic downturn, and the main task the National/State/Local Boards should be working on today is the rebuilding of our overall image, finding better ways to create value for the consumer, and moving into the internet/social media age!

Jay made a great statement above showing that 6 months on internet time is an eternity! (Example: Where was Twitter 6 months ago?)

This deserves an “Emergency” meeting. The membership is making noise, but the good news is we have the power to fix this before it becomes a very large issue with the consumer.

Let’s work together and repair this misunderstanding so that it does not further damage the industry we all love so much.

Matt, I want to thank you again for making more Realtors aware of what is going on, and getting more voices out there to be heard! We also need to thank A|R for featuring these type of posts, and creating such an effective vehical to make some noise!

- Harrison Painter

 

1:20pm • #25
861,732 Points 76 Featured Posts Outside Blog Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

Matt--Great conversation here. I am primarily a listing agent and I don't care WHAT brings a buyer to my property, or if another agent is out there pushing my listing on his website. Just sell it! Bring me more PR for my listing, and God Bless anyone with a buyer.

1:43pm • #26
269,874 Points 59 Featured Posts Outside Blog Called Shot Master

TLW - Ahhhh, I understand that.  Sometimes I find myself saying "you're the professional here, perhaps that's not the right way to phrase that."

Rita - I don't know any seller who thinks they'd rather have their house remain hidden when they're trying to sell it.  If they did, I really think I'd have to walk away from the listing.

Harrison - I think you made a great comment on the site.  I'm sure it's still stuck in moderation purgatory (mine has taken forever), but I'm glad to see it here.  I'm more than happy to spread news when I can.  Since joining ActiveRain, AgentGenius, and just becoming a blogger; I've seen the power that we all wield (both to do good and bad) with our words.  We can also join together better than ever before.  As a collective, we have a much louder voice.  And I agree with you, the featuring of the posts not only shows that ActiveRain wants us to be educated and work towards a better real estate industry, but also that they have their finger on the pulse of real estate.  They know what matters to both us and the consumer!

Erica - E-X-A-C-T-L-Y!  (I think that's the second time I've said that recently.)  Get my listing sold.  That's my goal.  If you want to help me do it and bring me the buyer because they saw it on your site - good on you.

2:07pm • #27
269,874 Points 59 Featured Posts Outside Blog Called Shot Master

Missy - I updated the post to reflect your link to the conversation on Realtor.org.  Thanks for bringing it up and posting it here!

2:08pm • #28

We as a nation, have been led to believe that "supply and demand" principles are allowed to innocently exist in the marketplace without much interference with the supply and/or demand. Not true...

"Plenty" is the arch enemy of "profits," therefore American sellers and their agents don't spend much time injecting quality in plenty (as Japanese tend to do). They actually invest in manufacturing "necessity out of thin air", "hype of scarcity", "financial engineering," etc. to move their products at a good profit levels.

What does that have to do with the real estate "sales" business? Plenty [pun intended. :) ]

The real estate brokerage industry manufactures scarcity through their MLSs.

Engineers, Google, IDX vendors, Zillow, etc., on the other hand, are hell-bent in creating "data plenty" for reasons of their own. [Suggested reading: The Longer Long Tail, Cluetrain Manifesto, What Would Google Do?, The Search, etc.]

So the battle is on between Flintstonish MLSs supported by their sugar-daddies aka listing brokerages, and the Google Generation's quants [mathematics wizards, currently the top most cushy job holders in America] who need massive amounts of data about not only real estate, but also about every other online line and off-line activity Americans get involved in.

The privacy argument coming from the Flintstonish MLSs is lame. Their argument is the last ditch effort to hide their production of scarcity. REALTORS would be better off flexing their 1.3 million member muscle against Google and its ilk with what they are doing with those gazzilion bytes of data. [Suggested reading: Numerati, Click, etc.]

The real privacy battle must be waged against Google, Optimum Online, Comcast, AOL, etc., who are selling the data, they are gathering about all of us, to other marketing quants [http://www.jdpowerwebintelligence.com/, AOL wasted $275 million on Tacoda] to sell us things we don't need [e.g.,we don't need Coke but it is one of the most loved products and brand] with financing products [e.g., GM's financing of Hummer, banks giving loans to anyone who could fog a mirror, etc.] we could live without.

As I say often, "But what do I know. I am just a guy on the Internet." :)

2:12pm • #29
197,862 Points 5 Featured Posts

I have always said that I don't care who sell my listings as long as somebody does!!!  I appreciate the people who have jumped on this situation and are investing their personal time and resources on our behalf.  You are so right about getting involved...part of the reason the REALTOR community gets steam rolled is because of REALTOR apathy.  It is like abstaining from voting and then griping about the guy who won the election!  At least is your guy didn't win you can claim that you are not responsible for putting the guy in office who did win.  But back to local involvement.  I am a Texas REALTOR and I got involved in my local board (New Braunfels/Canyon Lake...I am also a SABOR member) and I started on the MLS/Technology committee some ten years ago.  I ended up president of the board in 2006 and have served at the TAR level as a TREPAC Trustee.  I made my voice heard and represented my constituents well by always putting their best interest first.  I highly recommend involvement in the REALTOR associations...I would rather give some of my time and be in the decision making seat than sit back and pray everyone serving looks out for me.  Great post and thank you for it!

3:17pm • #30
269,874 Points 59 Featured Posts Outside Blog Called Shot Master

Lee - I wasn't sure if you were just "Yabba Dabba Do-ing" for effect or if you were going deeper with the dinosaur/Stone Age reference.  I see which was right now.

Jeani - Well, if all goes well for me, expect to see my name joining those ranks.  If you have any advice about joining committees getting involved in SABOR or TAR from your own personal experience, I would love it if you would share those with me (you can do it via email).

MyRealty Today - Although I feel like this is just a bit of an advertisement for your services, I'm going to leave it where it is.  I have to say, the issue at hand will help all of us (if we use it to our advantage) relegate the need for services like yours (and yet another monthly fee) and give us power over our own listings.  Will it destroy companies like yours?  I don't think it will - there will always be those that need help building and using IDX and web technologies to their advantage.  Using IDX to your own advantage isn't rocket science with a little know how.  I would appreciate it however, if you would remove the lengthy Department Of Justice information and replace it with this link (if only to keep the flow of the conversation):

http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/nar.htm

5:43pm • #32
830,093 Points 156 Featured Posts Outside Blog Hit Router Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

Thank you for bringing the update on this issue back to us. I was hopeful that the issue could have been resolved. Thanks for the link for further commenting.   

7:46pm • #33
622,286 Points 21 Featured Posts Outside Blog

I am going there to post.  We have to share info.  And not try to control who can see and who can't

7:47pm • #34
181,971 Points Attended Rain Camp

Matt - It's sad.  So many companies have come into our industry and taken profits from the transactions because our leadership doesn't understand that it's about the consumer - not us!

8:29pm • #35
269,874 Points 59 Featured Posts Outside Blog Called Shot Master

William - I have enjoyed doing this.  It has really encouraged me to look at my role in the bigger real estate picture.  If I am going to be asked to be a Realtor®, then I'm going to get the most out of NAR for myself...and others.

Russ - I'm still waiting for moderation on my comment.  Because of my experience in the music industry, I worry about the "control" issue over information.  I watched as things got worse and worse.  I didn't agree with file sharing at first, but I did see the problem and that by ignoring it and trying to control it, the industry was shooting itself in the foot.  I think the real estate industry needs to look at the music industry and see what's going on in relationship to what has already happened.  We can't hold onto the information with an iron fist anymore.  It may be the way "we" want it, but it's not going to work in the long run.

Fred - And although some disagree with them, I can't say I blame all those companies.  They took advantage of the situation and created thriving businesses from it.

8:55pm • #37
115,880 Points 2 Featured Posts

Thank you for bringing this to my attention.  I just went over to Realtor.org to voice my concern.

9:03pm • #38
865,699 Points 50 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Hit Router Attended Rain Camp

I'm on my way over there next to comment.  It is obvious that this whole thing is about the money.  When Google "scrapes" me, it is terrible.  When they "index" Realtor.com, Zillow or Trulia... it seems to be alright. 

Kind of backwards that they won't look out for us, but they are cool with helping the companies we are competing against for search engine results.

9:40pm • #39
865,699 Points 50 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Hit Router Attended Rain Camp

Here is the comment I put there...  We'll see if it gets approved. 

I find it amazing that the NAR and local boards find it acceptable to limit the ability of THEIR OWN MEMBERS to compete with 3rd party listing aggregators. There is NO way that the BoD could not figure out that the exact same data that is being indexed by the 3rd parties is the data that they are denying to dues paying members.

If anything, one would think that the NAR would be trying to allow the members to be the ones to have the listing data indexed while stopping the 3rd party sites from using the same data to get between consumers and agents in order to sell the agents back the leads.

Shameful.

9:46pm • #40

I come to real estate from the IT, engineering background. Before real estate, most of my career revolved around streamlining inefficient business systems. "Business solutions through technology" was my motto.

Thomas Jefferson once said that if he had the choice between MLS without real estate, or real estate without MLS, he would not hesitate to choose the latter...maybe he was referring to government vs. newspapers.

MLSs have been rendered unnecessary. They are fighting for their lives. That's all...RIP.

10:59pm • #41
546,529 Points 11 Featured Posts

Hi Matt -- It's amazing how the RE leadership has their head stuck in the last century.

11:49pm • #42
MAY
18
2009
372,750 Points 10 Featured Posts Called Shot Master

Matt, here's my comment on Realtor.org

As realtors, we are dedicated to promoting and protecting our clients’ best interests. My sellers want their homes sold. I advertise my listings everywhere I can. If someone else wants to advertise my listings on their site, great! The more people who are aware that the house is for sale, the better chance we have of selling the home quickly. Search engines are our friends; not our enemies.

 

To Lee Ali: The MLS is the only place to get all of the accurate information on properties. The other sites are good for consumers to "shop" but not suitable for providing professional realtors with the accurate, up to date information that we need. Suggesting that we do away with MLS is asking to go back in time.

2:33am • #43
897,222 Points 20 Featured Posts Outside Blog

I am heading over to Realtor.org to add my comments too.

We have been talking about this locally and it certainly will affect most agents

your friend in Charlottesville Virginia!

6:34am • #45
1,018,579 Points 25 Featured Posts Outside Blog Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

It is obvious that we are in need of leadership now more than ever. . . we can all start ground root support . .but unfortunately that will only serve for future purposes.. . 

6:41am • #46
262,009 Points 8 Featured Posts Outside Blog

MAtt, thanks for bringing this up, we need to keep it forefront until its done.  Thanks to Missy for the link, I went and added my 2 cents too... Then I went and sent the link to all the agents in our office explaining how we all need to post a positive comment about passing this.. get it off the TABLE. 

Right now, we the REALTORS, who pay for NAR, as being hobbled and the 3rd party sites have free rein...  how is that again?  I am paying for NAR to allow others to do what I CAN NOT DO? 

7:45am • #47

Matt, I don't see many comments at the link Realtor.org you provide above. Is there a different place people leaving comments at?

8:45am • #48
200,212 Points 6 Featured Posts Outside Blog

I"ve stated previously that many a Realtor has a a blind-stealth website that is a direct infraction. Nobody in the organization cares. To suddenly jump on the podium over this issue is a slap in the face IMO....

8:45am • #49

One of the problems with IDX and technology is that there is no way of controlling content once it goes to IDX and we may be held accountable for the content or sued even if we didn't create the content.

My son who is at the highest tech levels at a major company, tells me there is no way of stopping the harvesting of this content. And indeed the Supreme Court has ruled that certain information in our listings is public domain such as room sizes, address, taxes. Comments, pictures you take are copyrighted information.

I imagine if you put in IDX, the courts may rule it is in the public domain. If someone knows of a court decision involving IDX and the domain issue, please email me.

9:13am • #50
1 Featured Post Localism Sponsor

Hey, Matt.  I had no idea this was even an issue.  I appreciate you raising awareness and I'm going to head over to Realtor.org to check out the post and get smarter on the subject.  It's a little confusing at the moment.

10:18am • #51
269,874 Points 59 Featured Posts Outside Blog Called Shot Master

MyRealtyToday - After realizing your comment was an exact copy of your blog post (posted prior to your comment), I have removed it from the comments list.  I don't usually delete comments other than spam (like the recent Air Jordan advertisement on this post) or double posts.  If you wish to leave a comment again, I welcome you to do so as long as it is original and relevant to the conversation.  Thanks.

10:30am • #52
531,247 Points 4 Featured Posts Outside Blog

This has been a very intersting topic indeed. I will be heading over to the link posted by Missy

10:45am • #53
269,874 Points 59 Featured Posts Outside Blog Called Shot Master

Pam - Saw your comments there.  It's been great to see many of you jumping over to the site to leave your thoughts and comments!

Lane - I haven't even really begun to comment on the "Google can't index me, but they can index you" part of the conversation.  I'm still too flabbergasted that they would call Google a scraper.  I understand why they said it (at the web server level, they see no difference), but at the common sense level, just about everyone seems to agree.  So common sense needs to be ruled on by a committee now?  I see your comment did get approved.

Lee - I don't think the MLS is obsolete.  We disagree there.  It could easily be made obsolete - if and when the internet learns to publish accurate data.  I love Trulia, think it's a great site, but the fact is their data is often wrong.  I comment more on Voices about homes that are already sold and long gone then I do about homes that are active in the market.  The MLS has the most up to date information and thanks to IDX, so do I.  (I'm not calling out Trulia solely - just using them as the example.)

Chris - The real shame of it is that many of them seem to understand the misinterpretation of the rule as being just that, but for some reason, we're back to square one.  It's also quickly sounding like a blame game between NAR and MIBOR which doesn't sit well with me.  Someone stand up and do what's right.

Maria - I agree.  See my comment to Lee above.

Charles - Thanks for adding your voice.  The more that voice their concerns, the better the chances of action.

Fernando - That's why I will refuse to let this die.  If we have to wait six months, so be it.  But as I told Paula Henry (the agent directly affected by this and the one who helped get this conversation going), if I have to blog about it everyday until then - I will.

Gail - I know this issue is probably very important to you and your office and I've been following what you're up to over there too.  Good on your broker for taking a chance and a stand!  I haven't settled on what I want to do about that issue yet, I'm still mulling it over.

Lee - All the comments are moderated, so it's been slow to show up.  This morning there are 31 comments, but I hope that number will grow much larger.

Frank & Jodi - What gets me is that MIBOR made a "hasty" decision over a "hasty" interpretation to the rules.  They "hastily" took the power from Paula to do her job her way and NAR "hastily" flew her and Jay Thompson to D.C. to discuss this issue.  The MLS Committee approved the new language, but someone complained that the decision on a rule written in 2005 was being made to "hastily."  Uh, do you see the flawed logic anywhere in that?  I do.

Norma - One of the very reasons I think they need to re-think the rules more often.  A four year old rule just doesn't cut it in the internet age.

Natalie - I definitely recommend reading the posts mentioned at the top of the article.  And the comments.  Its a lot of reading, but will give you a good look at what's going on.

 

10:56am • #54
269,874 Points 59 Featured Posts Outside Blog Called Shot Master

Roland - Feel free to post your comments from over there in here.  It takes a long time for them to be approved and I think everyone has enjoyed reading them here before they post over there.  (Wow, that was a lot of "here" and "there.")

10:57am • #55
399,890 Points 12 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Hit Router Attended Rain Camp

Lot going on with this - thank you for writing the post even if you hated to:)

1:10pm • #56
548,980 Points 110 Featured Posts Outside Blog Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

Okay Matt...

I do have something to say. My thoughts on this is that NAR is much like talking to a wall. Have you ever had a conversation with a wall? :)

TLW...ROAR!

1:38pm • #57
278,556 Points 15 Featured Posts

I have served on the Oklahoma City MLS Board. I have alerted to current Board members about your post.  They were unaware this was going on. Thank you for spending the time to give out this information.

2:17pm • #58

Matt, I am sure that many people still use Yellow/White/Government/Local/Regional/Greater This/Metro That Pages from under their rotary phones. More power to them. The rest of us use http://www.google.com/goog411/ I refuse to pay cell phone companies money to get phone number information so that I can use their network which I am paying for anyway.

OK, OK, I admit it. I have love/hate relationship with Google. I love their products (engineering) but I hate their access to gazillion bytes of data which they must be using against us all. :)

Real estate is local but MLS does not need to be local anymore.

In terms of accuracy, the reason MLSs are "accurate" is because an army of REALTORS voluntarily maintain the highly inefficient data entry system in the milky way AFTER paying $130,000,000 in the MLS dues. Here I am assuming 1.3 million members paying $100/year for their "favorite" MLS.

Let's assume that only 10% of REALTORS spend one hour per week maintaining the accuracy of the God-knows-how-many MLSs around the country. That equates to 52x130,000 = 6.76 million hours/year = 3,380 full-time data entry people spending full 8 hours/day or 40 hours/week or 2,000/year maintaining the data.

I doubt if Zillia even has 33.8 full-time employees to maintain the accuracy of their data. Even if Zillia had 5,000 full-time employees, there is no way they would be able to maintain the data without the cooperation of the listing agents. So the solution is NOT to have data entry people or to import dated data from various source.

The solution is to provide a more robust system to the listing agents to enter their listings, at a central location. Sellers can choose what they want to show and what they want to hide.

MLSs, as we know them, are obsolete. :) IDX is one way and only exists because MLSs would not relinquish control of their data.

2:27pm • #59

TLW, you are absolutely correct about talking to the wall. Check this out. These guys at NAR are talking to the wall instead of each other. :)

2:41pm • #60
548,980 Points 110 Featured Posts Outside Blog Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

Matt...

Please don't kill Lee's link. The vid he's pointing too is flippin' hilarious :)

Pretty please with sugar on it? :)

TLW...ROAR!

3:25pm • #61
269,874 Points 59 Featured Posts Outside Blog Called Shot Master

Courtney - Despite the time and effort to keep up with all of this, I have enjoyed it.  I've learned more over the past week and a half than I thought possible.  I have great teachers and am on a personal quest for knowledge now, so it's good for me in a sense.

TLW - I've had a few in my day...both people who seemed like walls and probably a few real walls as well.  The worst part of all this is that NAR did listen and did move in the right direction for a moment.  It's been a bit of an up and down ride.

Joe - Thanks for passing it on to them.  I hope they see things the way many of us do.  The problem with MIBOR is that they had one complaint and they didn't see it the way most of us do.  And then they went to NAR for clarification and the interpretation (which is admittedly not quite right according to Cliff Niersbach and others as they all see that the intent of the rule was not to classify Google as a scraper).  They got an answer and put it in place.  Even with the outcry and the MLS Committee's additional suggested language, MIBOR has still refused to move forward - throwing it back into NAR's lap.

Lee - I see what you're saying, but I'm not so sure a national database in the answer.  If the big sites can't get it right (and still provide inaccurate data), whose to say that we (whether it's NAR or some other company or group) will be able to build and maintain a database of at least 4 million homes for sale (according to realtor.com - that doesn't include every FSBO, although as we know, plenty of those are on realtor.com as well).  Although I understand your issue of control on the local level and the problems that come with it, that information is still available on a global scale via IDX and the various syndication systems (as well as realtor.com).  It just seems that moving everything up to the national level would only mire us in more politics and control.  I'm not against the idea, just not so sure it would work.

Lee - I laughed.  A little too much probably.

TLW - I am leaving the link.  I may actually write about this, but I'm feeling a bit like you did earlier.

3:40pm • #62
548,980 Points 110 Featured Posts Outside Blog Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

Matt...

I feel compelled to tell you there's no such thing as laughing too much :)

I hope you do write about it. I am swamped with moving so please feel free to 'e' me when you post it. I need the heads up right now :)

TLW...ROAR!

4:01pm • #63
269,874 Points 59 Featured Posts Outside Blog Called Shot Master

TLW - I agree.  I have about a million posts to write, so hopefully I can find time and the words to express what I was thinking when I watched it.  I'll let you know.  Good luck with the move.

7:37pm • #65
848,852 Points 153 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Hit Router Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

The Flintstones was my fav cartoon growing up. LOL

8:38pm • #66
734,128 Points 136 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Hit Router Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

Matt, I applaud you and the others for taking a stand on this, particularly you in a different state and less directly affected.  I agree... representing our sellers requires maximum exposure and any effort by NAR or a state association to interfere with this is flat out unethical.  If google or anyone else helps expose our listings to the market place, or helps buyers find the "right" home for them, I'm all for it!

9:47pm • #67
734,128 Points 136 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Hit Router Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

'Looking forward to hearing Paula Henry and Jay Thompson discussing this on Blog Talk Radio tomorrow (Tuesday) at 6 p.m.

9:57pm • #68
865,699 Points 50 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Hit Router Attended Rain Camp

I guess they learned their lesson about approving comments.  Back when they first started their blog, I got involved in a little scrap... back then they moderated comments away if they didn't like them. 

10:28pm • #69
MAY
19
2009
172,704 Points 3 Featured Posts Attended Rain Camp

Good Post Matt.  Thanks for the information!  It was new news to me.

6:56am • #70
1 Featured Post Outside Blog Hit Router Attended Rain Camp

not exactly heartwarming is this news....what are they thinking?

7:43am • #71
105,770 Points 12 Featured Posts

I don't know what is more agonizing... the controversy over what has been going on with the IDX indexing (so called misappropriation/scraping debate) or watching the link to the Podcast that Lee provided.

Certainly a strong indication of where the NAR is when it comes to technology when you start talking about IDX so called scraping/misappropriation of data..

Simply because the address from the web page is being put in the page title so the search engines can index the page they are calling it scraping and a "misappropriation" of IDX data ...

...and then watch that podcast... LOL!

Somebody please call/hire the Shamwow guy...

 

9:13am • #72
269,874 Points 59 Featured Posts Outside Blog Called Shot Master

Missy - I have to admit, I liked it too.

Margaret - I just can't understand anyone thinking it's a bad idea.  It equates to free advertising.  I really think the only people that disagree with the issue are a) unable to work the internet to their advantage or b) looking to pick up both sides of the transaction everytime.  I'd love to see someone's opinion that states otherwise.

Lane - Just read your posts on the topic.  Wow, I really hope they've gotten over that.  I learned years ago that censorship on the internet without any real warrant (obscenity, profanity, spam, etc.) is never looked kindly upon.  In fact, it often just causes the censored user to rise up and do whatever they can to call the censor out.

Michael J. - Spread the word.  The more people that know what's going on, the more we can get our voice heard.  Many agents don't know about it, because they don't visit or listen to the people that are speaking up about it.  I want every agent to know what's going on.  Right now, I'm not even affected by the issue (other than seeing my friend Paula having her whole business changed overnight), but it can easily pass from one board to the next and before you know it, we're all in the same boat.

Michael S. - I'm not sure what anybody was thinking.  It sure seemed like the MLS Committee and NAR in general were thinking in the right direction, but MIBOR wanted no part of it.

Paul - Oh, if only NAR would hire the Shamwow guy to be our spokesman.  I'd probably take any bad rule they passed if he explained it to me.  That guy can sell honey to a bee.

9:54am • #73

Paul, the discussion here and the Postcast I provided are the two sides of the same coin. The coin is: "Disconnect from the ground reality."

Real Estate is as people a business as it gets.

ShamWow guy works for me. He is talking to the camera as if he is standing in my kitchen. The rightly inserted video clips are bonus.

10:21am • #74
269,874 Points 59 Featured Posts Outside Blog Called Shot Master

Lee - Excellent quote - "Real Estate is as people a business as it gets."

I thought I'd post my comments from Realtor.org here as well (as many of you have).  There is also a great comment from Stacey Moncrieff of Realtor® Magazine there that everyone should read.  This is someone "inside" the organization (on a slightly different side of it), but I think her comments are rather telling of what several at NAR are thinking.

Here's my comment:

I was one of those that followed this case with great attention over at AgentGenius and various other blogs. In fact, I just finished up a post on ActiveRain about the issue and the decision to defer this until November. I am a great loss to comprehend all of this at the moment.

The “concern at the speed at which these changes were about to be implemented” is an argument that I have a hard time swallowing. Why? Didn’t MIBOR go to NAR and get an immediate interpretation of the rule that was then the basis of this whole deal? Didn’t MIBOR’s quick reaction to the interpretation change the game overnight? Weren’t the rules that we’re fighting for clarification of enacted in 2005? It’s 2009 last time I checked.

If we as an association can’t keep up with the pace of technology, then we need to get out of the game or create a new system. The internet moves at a faster pace than the pre-internet world. If we can’t keep up with it, we’re going to lose. Just ask any record industry executive or the RIAA (Recording Industry Association Of America). Right or wrong, they got burnt by being slower than molasses when music came to the internet. Now, they have to fight back to remain relevant and they have a long road ahead of them. Truth be told, Apple saved them all by finally giving them a decent business model to build off of.

The worst part? An agent who’s trying her hardest to be the best agent she can be has become caught in the middle of a battle. The best part? She has inspired many of us to take action. I count myself amongst on those people.

12:18pm • #75
548,980 Points 110 Featured Posts Outside Blog Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

Matt...

Allow me to be honest with you. I don't think I'm smart enough to participate in this conversation :)

TLW...ROAR!

12:55pm • #76
269,874 Points 59 Featured Posts Outside Blog Called Shot Master

TLW - Allow me to be honest with you, I didn't think I was when I joined the fray.  I received a quick education and applied my own thoughts to it.

I posted a new comment on the Realtor.org site in reaction to Todd Carpenter's release of the NAR's updated position on the topic:

Matt Stigliano’s updated position is as follows:

Maybe NAR needs to take one lesson from the music industry. When we received contracts it always contained language referring to future marketing tools, delivery methods, etc. (ie, internet sales which didn’t exist when I signed my contract, internet radio which wasn’t even a reality, websites (barely any band had a website when I built our first one), my first record came out on cassette still, etc.). By allowing for “the future” in the language, cases like this could be avoided a little better. By the time NAR gets done shuttling this back and forth, there will be a new technology that brings up a whole other set of issues.

I still say that this is a case of no one (NAR or MIBOR) wanting to act first or step up and be the game changer. The interpretation is flawed and that’s clear as a bell to me in Cliff’s comment to Jay (which he allowed to be published on AgentGenius):

It should be understood that the focus of the rule in question has never been on blocking indexing by search engines. That potential effect was not contemplated when the rule was adopted by the NAR Board of Directors in 2005 and only came to light in the past few weeks. Simply put, the issue is whether - and how - indexing by search engines can be accommodated while at the same time clearly and objectively distinguishing that functionality from the scraping the IDX policy prohibits to protect MLS databases from misuse and misappropriation.

4:08pm • #77
210,438 Points 1 Featured Post Outside Blog

Hey look! One of my photos made it on a featured post!

Thanks for bringing this to the attention of the AR community Matt. It was an interesting experience going to DC and addressing the MLS committee. We went from elation to disappointment in a couple of days.

BUT, at least the issue is in front of people now. It's *really* important to not let this issue die so it's just swept under the rug come November.

Of note, the MLS Committee passed these changes unanimously. So the supprt is there. We just need to get the Board of Directors to understand the importance now.

And I think we will.

6:50pm • #78

The talk about SEO and search engine results is silly. It exists because MLS gods have manufactured scarcity of data in the guise of privacy, prevention of abuse, blah, blah, blah... [Price has a strange habit of going down if scarcity is not artificially maintained.]

SEO works for static information. The MLS information is not static. Properties get listed, go into contract, come back out of contract, sold, etc.

The reason clients use Google to find a property is because MLSs are fragmented and Google/Trulia/Zillow/etc. provides a window into that fragmented world of data through one search box.

Short Term - MLSs should only be populating Realtor.com with all kinds of listings not just home listings. We can then have links from Realtor.com to agent's websites.

IDX vendors can re-write their data feeds to point to Realtor.com API (Application Programming Interface. In English, a set of programs which talk to two different systems to provide functions/data from one system to the other.)

Long Term - All the MLSs in the US should be consolidated into one web-based MLS. This will make Realtor.com unnecessary.

Crystal Ball - I see massive consolidation of MLSs and the elimination of IDX.

8:58pm • #79
MAY
21
2009
269,874 Points 59 Featured Posts Outside Blog Called Shot Master

Jay - I searched for photos from you and Paula just so I could tie them all together.  Once again, thanks for going to D.C.  You know I'm not forgetting it anytime soon, especially if you read my latest post on AgentGenius.  I thought it important to take the discussion outside of AgentGenius to other places to raise some awareness, so that's why I did this.  I know not everyone reads every post over there.  I know what I felt like at the victory/defeat - I can only imagine what you and Paula felt like.

P.S. Your post "You Have Full Permission To Advertise My Listings" is quite possibly one of my favorites.  It's given me some ideas, so as soon as I get a few moments, I'll start working on them.

5:47am • #80

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