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Real Estate Investor vs. Real Estate Agent: What's A Quality Investment Property?

By
Real Estate Agent with Ad Astra Realty BR00222587

 There has been some discussion recently on active|rain regarding the usefulness of real estate agents to the real estate investor.  And I think it is a discussion worth having.

Here are two recent and related blog posts:

Agents vs. Investors: language of real estate investing
Realtors & Investors: Are You Speaking The Same Language?

Let me start this out by saying that if you are a real estate agent even remotely interested in learning more about real estate investing you should do three things:

  1. Read the 3 books pictured throughout this post
  2. Read Bawldguy - One of the best real estate investing agents in the country
  3. Read Real Estate Investing In The Real World - A great look inside the mind of a working real estate investorShemin book

We need to get a few things straight before I go any farther.  First, this blog is directly targeted to the "house" agent out there who will always answer "YES!!!" when asked if they work with investment property or real estate investors.  You need to know that investors think VERY differently than you do. So before you say "yes" you better understand what you are saying "yes" to.  Secondly, if you think you can bluff your way through a transaction, either on the buyer's or seller's side, with a REAL real estate investor you will find out quickly that you are wrong.   And lastly, if you are one of the commercial agents reading this, I'm obviously not talking to you.

THE LANGUAGE, ART & SCIENCE OF BEING AN INVESTOR'S REALTOR

I could do 10 different posts on this subject alone.  In fact, I keep toying with the idea of writing a book on the subject.  So I'm going to be brief here.  Real estate investors are looking for returns on their income property investments.  And if you're their real agent, you better be adding to the return and not subtracting from it.  Because they are buying present or future cash.  That's what investing is.  Get used to it.

It will take hard and time consuming work on YOUR part to learn about real estate investing.  You need to know how to measure returns and what the most popular forms of measurement are.  Ever heard of Gross Rent Mulitiplier, Cap Rate, Internal Rate of Return?  If you are going to work with investors you better google them an start studying. You better know what a cash on cash return is and what the standard for your community is before you say "YES!!! I'll work with you."

You can bring value to the tablefor the professional real estate investor by bringing them pre-packaged rental properties with all the returns laid out before them that meet their criteria.  What is criteria?  Learn what returns are important to them.  Location?  Multi or single?  Any architectural preference?  To the investor it just might be worth something to them if you have these properties all ready for them instead of them wasting their time looking for them.

TWO DISTINCTLY DIFFERNT KINDS OF REAL ESTATE INVESTORS

Pay careful attention here.  As a professional real estate agent actively working the investment property market in the Greater Kansas City area I can break down my calls from real estate investors into two very distinct categories;

  1. Those buying for cash
  2. Those buying for growth

You need to know from the outset that as a professional real estate agent you will make far more money and spend far less time working for those investors in the second category.

Everyday I get calls from investors looking for housing that can be purchased at 50%, 60% or 70% of ARV  (That is After Repair Value)  so that they can buy, rehab and sell.  Want to have some fun?  Get on your MLS right now and look for properties currently priced at 50% of their neighborhood's value that won't require the other 50% to bring it up to value.  Go ahead.  Let me know how many you find.

Those kinds of investors work very hard, turn over every stone and risk a lot of their personal time and money to make their livings.  They are generally doing their work full time and they are, if they are to succeed, very good at what they do and very tight with the money they spend.  They have to be.  Especially in this market.  They don't really have time to work with agents that will waste their time and cost them money.  About 2-3 times a year I find a property for one of these guys.  Can you make a living on 2-3 transactions a year?  I didn't think so.

SchaubThose investors that fall into the second category help me to make a very good living.  They generally aren't the people who watch HGTV or A&E's Flip This House.  They are generally professional with good incomes that don't have a lot of time to spend trolling for houses.  They want good rental properties that will help them secure a Retirement Worth Having

And here is the key, they will remain loyal to you so long as you save them time and generate the kinds of returns they are looking for.  Simple as that.

But don't mistake their willingness to work with REALTORs as a weakness or a lack of understanding about real estate investments.  They are very demanding on how their money works for them.  That is why they have the jobs they have and the savings to invest.  They expect professionalism, an agent that can calculate returns and even coordinate attorneys, tax advisers and property managers for them. 

THE PERFECT STORM

I've been working with real estate investors for 5+ years now.  I have taken accounting classes, tax classes, commercial real estate evaluation classes, real estate investing classes and much more on top of the continuing education classes required to keep my real estate license.  I read every day.  I regularly counsel with other residential and commercial real estate investment agents around the country and I routinely will question my investors to see what they can teach me and what service I can add-on for them.  I also own my own properties.

So I cringe when I hear some agents in my office going out the door with obviously new investors.  I know that agent's experience with income property and I can tell their client is an avid watcher of A&E's Flip This House.  (Click this link to see fraud from that show.)  And I think to myself "there is a foreclosure waiting to happen."   One party walking out the door is eager to join the country's real estate millionaires.  The other party doesn't have a real clue as to how to advise them to move forward. 

BECOME AN AGENT OF VALUE TO THE REAL ESTATE INVESTOR

The scenario above doesn't have to be repeated week after week.  It makes investors think badly of our profession and it makes you want to quit when you can't sell them anything after working with them for 6 months.  There is an easy answer to this.  You can do one of two things:

  1. Learn about real estate investing.  Heck, buy your own income property!  Take the time to truly educate yourself as to what it is an investor is looking for and how you can assist them in their goals.
  2. Refer your client to an agent that works regularly with investors.  Someone that really knows their business.

And before you think point #2 is self-serving, and to a degree it is, you need to understand that I'm smart enough to know where I don't belong.  Want me to list or help buy a track of land?  Great. Let me introduce you to Larry Kueser, Kansas City's Land Man.  Looking for a luxury home?  I'll refer you to Jim Smith.  By introducing you to those two men for those two categories you'll get better service and I'll get a referral fee. Everybody wins. 

And isn't that what it's all about?

NOTE:  It was brought to my attention that Fox no longer has the video link that I was linking to.  So here is a link to the Kansas City Star story on the subject.

Jordan M. Mackey
Overland Park Real Estate (No association with Inc) - Overland Park, KS
Overland Park Real Estate ::
First wanted to send a congrats on the featured as well as thanks for the awesome article!  You're content is just getting more and more rich and in debth...  Heck I also love the pictures :-)
Jun 01, 2007 09:22 PM
Linda Box Taylor
Castle Connections Realty - Plano, TX
Your Plano, TX Realtor

Chris,

I ordered Building Wealth One House At A Time from Amazon.  I hope to receive it anyday and start reading.  Thanks for the recommendation!!

Jun 07, 2007 08:35 AM
Anonymous
crm

THANK YOU! I had so much trouble with Agents. I really wanted to focus on investing, and not to have to be an agent myself. But even the agents who were also themselves investors, well, they just refused to pursue my vision and model. They were married to their own models, or simply wanted to take me for a ride, and to get my very hard earned investment dollars spread around to all their "friends" (um, I thought kickbacks were illegal, but have learned the last few years they are alive and very well).

 Result? I don't speak ill of anyone. But, suffice it that no one - no agent, broker, nor mortgage brkr -- has won my referral. And, indeed, I'm going into busines myself, to be the sort of investor-advocate/advisor/agent that I very much wanted to find and never did.

 I hope that I can serve investors in the way you have. Responsibly.

Jun 25, 2007 03:26 PM
#30
Anonymous
crm

I should temper my comment by saying that I have been won over for referrals by a couple-few people that I've done personal business with. Just not any I've encountered in investing. Even been burned by those who did fine for me personally, then burned me on investment deal. Maybe it is just overpopulated right now. Maybe last couple years, everyone is feeling tight and greedy. I dunno. I've only played the last couple years, so cannot say for sure.

Jun 25, 2007 03:59 PM
#31
Chris Lengquist
Ad Astra Realty - Olathe, KS
Kansas City Real Estate Investing

crm - I am flexible when it comes to working with investors because I fully understand what they are trying to accomplish.  What you need to know is that while not every real estate agent understands investing they do understand that if the client never  buyers or sells they never make money.

You have no idea how many calls a day agents get from people who just finished watching HGTV or A&E or just went to a success seminar.  It can just get crazy.  So some agents try to work with a few and then throw up their hands.  The frustration can run both ways, believe me. 

My bread and butter are the long term Buy & Hold clients.  There might be some rehabbers out there that don't think I know what I'm doing, in fact I know there are, because I can't get them a steady supply of homes at 50% ARV.  I know what they are trying to accomplish.  I just can't/won't find them in the MLS. 

When an agent commits a lot of time to those investors both parties are going to come away frustrated.  Believe me.

Jun 26, 2007 12:43 AM
John Occhi
Excellence in Real Estate Tm @ Allison James Estates & Homes - San Jacinto, CA
ePRO, Five Star Certified, Riverside Cnty REO Expert, 951.443.6259
I really like all of Gary Kellers books - lot os  good info there
Jul 01, 2007 04:54 PM
Chris Lengquist
Ad Astra Realty - Olathe, KS
Kansas City Real Estate Investing
John - Thanks for stopping by!
Jul 02, 2007 01:36 AM
Dwight Puntigan
DRP Realty, LLC - Saint Peters, MO
Dwight Puntigan

As The Market turns

People that found multi-family with a cap rate of 10 over the past couple years, indeed worked hard and earned it.  Most people were buying with the hope of fast appreciation over a three year period.  Now most of these who have no equity, and purchased above todays market will have to make a compromise.  Rents in many of the neighborhoods are lower so cash flow is not as good.  At least they still have depreciation at tax time.

Jul 02, 2007 05:26 AM
Chris Lengquist
Ad Astra Realty - Olathe, KS
Kansas City Real Estate Investing

Quite true for many folks.  Counting on appreciation is a slippery slope.  That's like the icing.

 

Jul 03, 2007 08:10 AM
Carol Smith
Casmi Photography - Mebane, NC

Chris - you have offered some very sound advice here.  Thank you.

I do work with several investors.  Most are buying for long term returns.  The couple that thought they would flip the property were warned ahead of time that TV and real life are not the same.  In our area there are tons of properties on the market that would fall in the <50% ARV category.  The problem is that they will not generate any appreciable income as a rental and they certainly won't sell to an owner occ.  So essentially they are wasted stock.

One thing the 'flippers' don't realize is that there are seasoning issues with many types of loans and without perfect documentation on the sellers part it probably isn't going to happen.  Then they get angry because of the 12 months carrying costs.  

My hubby and I are investors, too.  We are building a solid portfolio of rentals, stocks, mutual funds, etc.  Not all is tied into just one thing.  Our rentals are in an area of the city that has (historically) maintained a strong appreciation even in a generally bad market.  And just for my own peace of mind I have made my own policy of never purchasing any property that I would not live in.  This policy originally frustrated my other half, but when he saw the numbers on the last couple years of tax returns he has agreed that this is not a bad policy.


Jul 03, 2007 08:28 AM
Chris Lengquist
Ad Astra Realty - Olathe, KS
Kansas City Real Estate Investing

Carol - great comments.  Thanks.

Jul 03, 2007 09:20 AM
Bill Roberts
Brooks and Dunphy Real Estate - Oceanside, CA
"Baby Boomer" Retirement Planner

Hi Chris,

I like your attitude. I prefer investors to pirates every day of the week. Real value is in the future selling price, not in how cheap can you get it for. i believe in paying market value, then changing the value by improving the property either by phyical improvements, managerial improvements, or neighborhood improvements. Its all about trends. And use.

Good article. I'll be watching for more from you. I'll take that book you want to write a chapter at a time.

Bill Roberts

Jul 03, 2007 09:45 AM
Chris Lengquist
Ad Astra Realty - Olathe, KS
Kansas City Real Estate Investing
Bill - thanks for the kind words.  :)
Jul 03, 2007 09:59 AM
Anonymous
Robin Rogers

Excellent post, Chris! I must be one of the few agents in San Antonio who specializes in working with investors, mostly in single-family homes, because so many multi-family properties are priced ridiculously. I don't think you can make a killing in San Antonio because sales prices and rents are reasonable and appreciation is, too. It's a great buy-and-hold market.

Some people who must have watched the Montelongos work their magic or have been to a guru seminar contact me full of enthusiasm, and when I send them some listings of good potential properties, often they send me back some listings they found on Realtor.com of lower-priced properties, sometimes VERY low-priced. I know all the street names and neighborhoods, and I know why they're always on the market, too. Then I have to educate them as to why I chose the listings I sent them in the first place.

As a buyer's agent for investors, I tend to specialize in quality rental properties rather than rundown fix-and-flips. So much of my time involves educating investors that I can't make a decent living if I ALSO ran around town looking at $70,000 properties, estimating their rehab costs, preparing CMAs and ARV, and every once in a great while writing a contract. My average price range for a single-family rental is $140,000 so I'm not exactly raking it in on them either; but I do really enjoy working with investors--at least the ones who appreciate all I do for them.

Anthony, I like your advice about joining a local REI club to find out about non-MLS properties and make some contacts. I run across lots of properties, since I preview them regularly, that I would love to be able to match up with a buyer. I also have deals fall through occasionally if I haven't been able to calm the buyer's fears, and it would be great to be able to substitute another buyer for a good property. I've done this a couple of times, but I'd sure like to have a larger list of potential investors.

Jul 07, 2007 05:01 AM
#41
Robin Rogers
Robin Rogers, Silverbridge Realty, San Antonio, Texas - San Antonio, TX
CRS, TRC, MRP - Real Estate Investment Adviser

Excellent post, Chris! I must be one of the few agents in San Antonio who specializes in working with investors, mostly in single-family homes, because so many multi-family properties are priced ridiculously. I don't think you can make a killing in San Antonio because sales prices and rents are reasonable and appreciation is, too. It's a great buy-and-hold market.

Some people who must have watched the Montelongos work their magic or have been to a guru seminar contact me full of enthusiasm, and when I send them some listings of good potential properties, often they send me back some listings they found on Realtor.com of lower-priced properties, sometimes VERY low-priced. I know all the street names and neighborhoods, and I know why they're always on the market, too. Then I have to educate them as to why I chose the listings I sent them in the first place.

As a buyer's agent for investors, I tend to specialize in quality rental properties rather than rundown fix-and-flips. So much of my time involves educating investors that I can't make a decent living if I ALSO ran around town looking at $70,000 properties, estimating their rehab costs, preparing CMAs and ARV, and every once in a great while writing a contract. My average price range for a single-family rental is $140,000 so I'm not exactly raking it in on them either; but I do really enjoy working with investors--at least the ones who appreciate all I do for them.

Anthony, I like your advice about joining a local REI club to find out about non-MLS properties and make some contacts. I run across lots of properties, since I preview them regularly, that I would love to be able to match up with a buyer. I also have deals fall through occasionally if I haven't been able to calm the buyer's fears, and it would be great to be able to substitute another buyer for a good property. I've done this a couple of times, but I'd sure like to have a larger list of potential investors.

(Sorry to double-post, but I forgot to login first!)

Jul 07, 2007 08:31 AM
Chris Lengquist
Ad Astra Realty - Olathe, KS
Kansas City Real Estate Investing

Robin - No problem.  Thanks for the words.   When I decided to specialize in real estate investments I thought I was out on an island.  Today, I realize that there aren't many that actually know the inner workings of real estate investing. 

You might want to check out a couple good blogs regarding real estate investing, if you haven't already.

Equity Scout

Bawld Guy

BBQ Capital

Jul 07, 2007 09:11 AM
Wendy Casey
A-List Home Staging & Decor - Surrey, BC

Valuable knowledge from this post. Thanks for sharing the pitfalls of hiring a non-investor realtor. I know what to look for now!

 

Wendy Casey

Vancouver, BC.  Canada

Jul 08, 2007 11:31 AM
Chris Lengquist
Ad Astra Realty - Olathe, KS
Kansas City Real Estate Investing
Thanks for visiting!
Jul 08, 2007 11:44 AM
Anonymous
Kathy Becklin, R(S) Maui, HI

Fabulous posts and follow ups.  I am a new agent and new investor looking for good opportunities.  With my background, I tend to be a numbers person so I've decided to make the investor community my target.  I've recently signed up for investor training through Wealth Intelligence Academy (Rich Dad affiliate) and am just starting.  I just ran into an issue with my experienced agents saying "that is never done" or "that won't work in this market".  

I really love the advice on 2 categories of investors and where I should spend my time.  The training we are in is focusing primarily on #1 investors.  I can understand why (people coming in with no $$ and possibly no credit need to find ways to raise cash fast) but that is not my personal situation nor the target of Maui investors! It is still a numbers game but build for growth not cashflow.   Has anyone thought of starting a group for for investors and agents?  I feel challenged by balancing what is good for my real estate business vs what is good for me as an investor!  

Thanks much for letting me know that there is a happy medium. 

Jul 11, 2007 05:32 PM
#46
Chris Lengquist
Ad Astra Realty - Olathe, KS
Kansas City Real Estate Investing

Kathy - I'm quite certain there is a market in Maui for vacation rentals.  Seems to me that would be another form of investing.  Those won't be quick turns but long term Buy & Holds.  Hmmmm. I smell opportunity.

I'm sure "Rich Dad" will be a fine opportunity.  But I would again refer you to taking a commercial course or two like CCIM intro course.  Or just read Jeff over at BawldGuy.  I would assume the people purchasing Maui vacation properties won't be get rich quick lemmings.  They will be educated professionals with staggering incomes.  You'll need to know how to speak their language.  When you do, watch out.

Jul 12, 2007 01:36 AM