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Obama Continues His Sell Out

US Flag Iwoa Jima, 9-11 Obama made his speeches to the Muslim world and to sum it up, he thinks more about what theses folks think than what the majority of Americans think.

What do at least Half of Americans voters think? I challenge you to ask. They think this country is a great country; a country that is strong, that stands for right principles, that defends weaker nations, oppressed countries, attacked countries (Kuwait, Bosnia,) A country that feeds those who have no food (Somalia) We have defended Muslim Countries, fed them, protected them.

WE HAVE NO REASON TO APOLOGIZE FOR ANYTHING!

The majority of Americans think that we are a nation whose declaration of independence and constitution drew wisdom and principles from the large reserve contained in Judeo-Christian scriptures--not the Koran.

The majority of Americans love and appreciate their military--they believe that Generals know more than any politician in washington. They know that the military is interested in only one thing: WINNING; winning battles, wars and the hearts and minds of people who are oppressed by TERRORISTS!

Obama is a man who is selling out Israel. He is spitting in their faces; preaching to them and siding with people who want to see Israel wiped off the map.

He is weak. He allows the proliferation of nuclear weapons, and not doing a thing to discourage bullies.

More, and more, there are those who voted for Obama that see him as a threat to all that at least one half of the voting public holds dear: our freedom and our standing in the world as a power to be reckoned with.

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Posted by John March, Broker/Realtor Low Country Home Buyer Services on 06/04/2009 07:47 AM

Comments (72)

obama sell out

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72 Comments on Obama Continues His Sell Out

JUN

John, I commend you for being so restrained, I don't think he is weak I think he wants us defeated.

Hugh, it really upsets a lot of folks, especially those who serve in any capacity as their service means the president must apologize for doing what is right to protect our freedom--imagine those who are under fire everyday--i just hope they don't listen to the news or hear the "apologizer-in-chief" speak.

God Bless you.

The majority of Americans think its time we try a little diplomacy for a change instead of getting in everyone's face. Why do you think, because he is trying to mend fences, that the majority of Americans prefer to keep things tense with the middle east? Obama has a lot of apologizing to do, for the indescretions of the previous administration. I'm pretty sure when the polls come out, the 21% "base" of the republican party will be the only ones who disagree with his diplomatic overtures.

BO speaks in a country that spits on human rights for its own people with a special disdain for women and tells them that:

1. Our intelligence community tortures Muslims (guess he didn't see the videos of Americans getting their heads hacked off).

2. Israel is violating all kinds of laws by building housing in their own territory and country.

3. We should all disarm our nuclear weapons but go ahead Iran and continue with your nuke program.

4. The american people are all sorry for their acts of agression against radical muslim terrorists.

5. Hey, radical muslim terrorists, go ahead and keep doing what you are doing because I'll be happy to talk to you about it.

Yeah, we are all feeling warm and fuzzy this morning and the world is a better place. Bet the economy in this country will turn around by lunch time now that the most brilliant man in the world saved us from ourselves.

Tim

Terry, and you are dreaming. Diplomacy never works with TERRORISTS. Do you remember JIMMY CARTER?

Do you remember your history: In 1938, as British prime minister Neville Chamberlain was in the same business as Obama: appeasement--making nice, nice, until it was too late.

FDR felt sure Hitler’s ambitions could only be dealt with by force. Obama is no FDR. Obama is an appeaser-AKA diplomacy.

Everyone forgets that muslims attacked us several times leading up to 9/11. I am featuring this in silent majority. I agree, don't apologize for me Mr. President. I did not go out and attack innocent people in the name of Islam!

Terry,

I wonder what the majority of Americans will say when we are attacked again. How quickly your kind forgets. Why don't you tell the families that lost their loved ones in the World Trade Centers we should apologize! Tell the people of Kuwait that it was ok for Saddom to march into their country and kill men, women and children alike.

Let's apologize to the world for killing Hitler, because it was ok kill 6,000,000 people because their Jewish. Wake up, if not for the American Servicemen this world would not exist as we know it. Hitler would have had his pure race, genocide would continue because the UN is to weak to do anything about it and God only knows what the ramifications for Israel would be like.

The World should apologize to us for not joining us in human rights for all and eliminating terrorists. I guess you need to see more American Blood shed, before you'll host an American Flag and calm your a patriot.

John - I generally agree with you. However, I think it's too broad to say "WE HAVE NO REASON TO APOLOGIZE FOR ANYTHING!" In fact, there have been things we've needed to apologize for. (Such as the abuses at Abu Graib.) However, to the best of my knowledge, we've already apologized for them. So, the only thing(s) we may need to apologize for would be any new offense.

I would also point out that most Americans don't necessarily believe that "Generals know more than any politician in washington." Certainly not as a blanket statement. (Although there may be some exceptions in terms of certain Generals and certain politicians.) I think the more accurate statement is, "Generals know more about the battle grounds they're fighting in, and military strategy and practices than any politician in Washington."

Finally, it sure would be nice to have a Commander In Chief who knew a thing or two about Commanding - not just drawing a line in the sand... and then, when that line is crossed, or rubbed out, merely drawing another line. With all his posturing and speeches, President Obama's stance with countries such as N. Korea and Iran boils down to, "Don't you dare cross this line. If you do, I'll have to draw another line!!" Maybe if they push him too hard he'll start to beg, "Please, oh, please don't cross THIS line!! I promise to be even nicer to you. I'm begging you. PLEASE don't do it!!" Now that WILL make many others around the world much happier with us. After all these years, they'd love to see some other country (perhaps their own) in the lead in terms of power and real leadership.

He is a fool. Everyday it becomes more clear.

You guys must have listened to a different speech than I did. I am no Obama fan, but I am fair. You guys that think Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay are acceptable, are in the minority in this country. If You count the world, you probably make up 1% of the population.

Mike, thanks for the feature.

Terry and mike, it seems that everything is all "backwards" today. What was once "right and honorabble" is now dishonorable and worthy of an apology. This is insanity.

David, you are right and that is what I meant, "Generals know more about the battle grounds they're fighting in, and military strategy and practices than any politician in Washington."

Thank you.

if I were in a street fight, and Obama was there, I wouldn't want his help, and the only weapons he'd offer would be two teleprompters to give a speech, while I am getting the ___ kicked out of me.

\\\\ kool -aid////alert

Israel, why not check the facts--

This from an AP Poll

Nearly eight years after terrorists struck on U.S. soil, more than a third of Americans say they worry about the chance that they or their relatives might fall victim to a terrorist attack — essentially unchanged from 35 percent five years ago.

The poll also shows potential areas of political vulnerability for Obama, indicating he must walk a fine line as he seeks to both protect the country and turn the page on Bush’s national security policies.

Some 52 percent of people say torture can be at least sometimes justified to obtain information about terrorist activities from suspects, an increase from 38 percent in 2005 when the AP last asked the question. More than two-thirds of Republicans say torture can be justified compared with just over a third of Democrats.

So, could we also surmise that these same 52% would not be OK with closing GITMO?

the Democratic-controlled Senate voted 90-6 to refuse to give him $80 million he requested--they want two things--more details from obama and they don't want to lose reelection VOTES for themselves

Israel - as the one who brought up Abu Graib, perhaps you failed to notice that I thought it appropriate that we apologized for the abuses there. I didn't mention that I also thought it appropriate that we prosecuted the perpetrators within our own ranks and brought them to justice for their acts. The place itself - Abu Graib - is neither good nor bad, it's what was done there. And from what I've read, the vast majority of what was done there by our troops was indeed acceptable. I believe the same is true of Gitmo.

Are you going to argue that NOTHING in either of those places was acceptable?

John - I don't mean to be always correcting you, but you said,

If I were in a street fight, and Obama was there, I wouldn't want his help, and the only weapons he'd offer would be two teleprompters to give a speech, while I am getting the ___ kicked out of me.

I think he wouldn't offer two teleprompters. He'd offer to give a speech if he could get two teleprompters while hoping for change.

Yes I do. I remember when he got Begin and Sadat to shake hands and make nice. I remember that it brought a semblance of peace to the middle east which lasted for many years. And I remember when Reagan gave arms to Iran. I suppose that did not foster terrorism, or at least give the terrorists some ammunition. But if you prefer just to blow them all to hell, better read your bible because I think it says something in there about what happens when you don't play nice. 8 more years!

David- Abu Ghraib was a place of terror for years before we ever got there. We were just the cherry on top. As for Guantanamo Bay, that place is a symbol of everything we did wrong over the last eight years. We said that we were defending the U.S. from the Muslim savages and then did a bunch of barbaric , unamerican crap.

John- Your kool aid alert is humorous. I am able to find good and bad with both sides of the aisle, while you are stuck squarely in the neocon aisle. I laugh at your poll. Did you get it off The Drudge Report? I can go to moveon.org and find a poll also. I wish that some people could see that going around and killing people does nothing to improve our security. Obamas speech probably did more to protect our country than all the citizens we killed in Iraq put together.

Israel

It is an AP Poll that's Associated Press. So enjoy your chuckle.

Terry, you need to read the Bible, especially the Old testament. You'll find lots of examples of God's people warring against their enemies and winning. And Oh, you'll also remember that when Jimmy Carter was President how the Iranians made fools of us?

But here's how the Jimmy Carter Library and Museum tells it:

"On November 4, 1979, Iranian militants stormed the United States Embassy in Tehran and took approximately seventy Americans captive. This terrorist act triggered the most profound crisis of the Carter presidency and began a personal ordeal for Jimmy Carter and the American people that lasted 444 days.

President Carter committed himself to the safe return of the hostages while protecting America's interests and prestige. He pursued a policy of restraint that put a higher value on the lives of the hostages than on American retaliatory power or protecting his own political future.

Here's the real story--Under Carters watch and because of his ill-conceived policies toward Iran (and OBAMA is making the same mistakes) here's what we got:

Ayatollah Khomeini's dictatorship executions of the Shah's prisoners, predominantly communist militants, and more than 20,000 pro-Western Iranians. The oprresion of women. In addition to American diplomats being taken hostage, the invasion of Afghanistan by the then Soviet Union. result of this chaos and the emergence of Muslim zealots like Osama bin Laden. (Source The American Thinker August 2007)

Does any of this sound familiar to you?

JUN

Gary - I believe Hitler took his own life.

John - Reading your post, I'm not sure you followed the same speech that Obama delivered. I just read it through 10 minutes ago and I saw it as relatively neutral.

Regarding comment #17, I wouldn't say that Carter's policies toward Iran was the cause of the 1979 uprising. There was a lot more going on before Carter even got there.

John, there is nothing in the bible that says innocent countries are to be invaded based on lies and false information. There is nothing in the bible that says we are supposed to torture people, just because we can. Guess you didn't get the memo about the supposed terrorist that gave up information because he was offered cookies did you? I think there is something in the bible about a similar scenario, an olive branch or something like that. You use the bible to defend every heinous action we have committed. Just like the taliban uses the Qur'an.

Tchaka, thanks for the input on Iran. All that information has been lost because the Reagan worshipers never knew the circumstances surrounding that entire event.

Tchaka,

Hitler did take his own life.

There is nothing "neutral" about Obama's speeches. He is apologizing continually for American. He stands with those who want us to bow down, not only to their kings, but also to their desires--and in particular, they love it when we don't stand strong for an ally like Israel. They don't care for Israel; they don't care for our way of life; they don't care a wit about DEMOCRACY (never mentioned by Obama)

So, what's "neutral about that--you know what NEUTRAL is? It is what politicians do--it is what slick tongued who want to please and appease everyone--who want popularity more than truth--it's all fluff.

Check the facts: Jimmy Carter's human rights demands from the shah of Iran spawned a revolution and the rise of the “extremists” AKA Terrorists!

“Jimmy Carter's misguided implementation of human rights policies not only indirectly led to overthrow of the Shah of Iran, but also paved the way for loss of more than 600,000 lives, Iran's rule by Ayatollahs, the Iran-Iraq War, Iraq's Invasion of Kuwait and Desert Storm, the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, the Taliban, Al Qaeda, Osama bin Laden, and the mass murder of Americans and destruction of the World Trade Center towers on September 11, 2001” Source American Thinker

Terry,

The Koran or the BIBLE can be misused by anyone.

The Bible is not meant to be used as a hammer.

The Bible is meant to draw all men and women to The Lord Jesus Christ, the way, the truth, and the life. Did you ever read the BIBLE, cover to cover? One of the things it does say is to speak the truth in love. And I do love you abd bless you in Jesus name.

P.S. have you ever read the Koran? I have. It is an eye-opener.

Terry, God was in the constitution and our forefathers, the thing that you have an issue with is who's God. We are not saying the Catholic, Jewish, Presbyterian religions...Which you think we are..We are saying God..Period.

John, I have to wonder while I have spent the last 2 years listening to shows and reading books by Muslim Professors and Psychiatrist that are speaking to our Universities about the Islam Extremist and Radical Islam mentality that have warned us to not do what Obama is doing.. How do these experts from their own Countries interpret what Obama is doing as a sign of weakness and a green light to go ahead and attack America, Why does not the Obama Administration know these facts? Why are they so ignorant that they or Obama is putting us in danger? I have finally come to the conclusion that God reveals what he wants us to know to his people and we have the first heads up on this. We have tried to caution the secular Americans and enlighten them and they do not hear us.

All at this point we can do is show them by praying for Obama and this administration that their eyes will be open and they will see God's will for the United States.
I was in a prayer group this weekend and the conclusion is that we must show by example How God is protecting us in this economy by our prosperity that he is showing us and our joy that we live in, living in God's economy not the US Economy. I think the thing people do not see when we put out this information is that we are trying to warn them and help them, that to me is the sad part.

Hopefully, their eyes will be opened by the Lord before they have to suffer the consequences of ignoring our warnings..That is all we can pray for..

Great post!

Tchaka, Of course it looks relatively neutral to you..but not to radical islam and muslim extremists..Check Iran's leader comments and google Professors of Mulsim countries and how it is percieved...That is were the danger lies not in our eyes..If everyone thought like Americans we would not have a Middle East Problem right now...

Hi Mary,

thank you for your thoughtful post. Do you like Bible Prophecy? I do. I came to know the Lord after I read a book called, "The Late Great Planet Earth." I recommend this book to those who think all is OK and we are on the way to peace because of Obama's conciliatory strategies with our enemies. No, We are on the road to what Lindsey speaks about in this book. We are on the road to what the Bible Prophesied, that is coming and The Lord's return is closer than we all think.

John - you must really not have heard or read the actual spees, as there was an entire section devoted specifically to Democracy.

I am not surprised that you see the sentiments voiced in the speech as appeasements that would weaken our country. It is amazing what seclusionist thinking will do. I, for one, am thrilled that we finally have a human being at the helm who does not hate the world around us, and who has the balls to address the people elsewhere in the world, in their languages, with their metaphors, and yes, with quotes from their holy books.

As for apologizing - we violated every rule that we, Americans, should have held sacred by abuse, and that was systematic, sadistic abuse of people in our bases and illegal prisons. We have killed innocent people in retaliation for 9.11 and tortured people who never had a chance to have their cases heard. The punishement were doled out to the lowest ranking service men and womne, and those were not by any means adequate, by anyone's standards. The right to be treated humanely even by one's enemy - no, especially by one's enemy, is something we ourselves rely on, as does most of the civilized world. We screwed up, plain and simple.

And finally, speaking at a University to a rather diverse and young crowd in a way that does not threaten their way of life, their culture, their traditions is going to do a hell of a lot more for our security that all the bombs we could get our hands on.

\\\\ kool -aid////alert/////

By Golly Inna, for the life of me, I don't know what a seclusionist is. could you splain it? But I am glad that you are thrilled.

Obama said:

" America does not presume to know what is best for everyone, just as we would not presume to pick the outcome of a peaceful election."

He was successful in throwing stones at the previous President who truly believed in Democracy for ALL people. In short, he says things that are sure to not offend and he is a weakling who doesn't know what he is doing.

He went On

"But I do have an unyielding belief that all people yearn for certain things: the ability to speak your mind and have a say in how you are governed; confidence in the rule of law and the equal administration of justice; government that is transparent and doesn't steal from the people; the freedom to live as you choose.

Have you listened to the news lately? Obama wishes more for others in the world than he does for us: Nationalizing banks, Car Companies, appointing Czars as he pleases, stealing money from the American Tax Payer, not being transparent, and blah, blah, blah.

Enjoy the kool-aid

By golly, John - you seem to be under a strange and rather antiquated assumption that America is the judge, jury and executioner of all things it believes to be unworthy of our bible, our way of life, our Judeo-Christian principles, as you put it. Obama seems to recognize that no one religion or culture or belief is more valid or worthy of protection and respect than the next. To me - that's the American ideal. To you, it's weakness. Hence you are indeed stuck in glass house, John, with your righteousness. The world is a lot bigger than us, and it's certainly a hell of a lot more complex than the previous administration was willing to acknowledge.

By golly Inna, first you talk about Democracy and now you are on religion. Did you read my response? Still don't know what a seclusionist is...enjoy the kool aid.

John - It's pretty clear to me that the speech you're referring to differs from the one given in Cairo yesterday. I will provide a link to it here. I urge you to read it, but before doing so, clear your mind of any preconceived notions or ideas of the President and read it for what it is.

Your "Check the facts" is about as laughable as anything I've read recently. Do you really believe that nonsense? If I were to use American Thinker (or should that be Thunker) logic, I could extend that to the War in Iraq and the current economic crisis. Basically Jimmy Carter is the reason people are in foreclosure today.

It staggers the mind that the Thunker purports to have such highly educated contributors but then we get this garbage. Perhaps a staffer wrote that? The history is Iran is deep.....very deep.....and the cause for uprising is so far beyond Carter that I'm still stunned that someone actually wrote that. I'm going to suggest you read publications by R.K. Ramazani to get a clearer picture of what's going on. Despite his humbleness, I consider him to be one of our country's foremost experts on Iran.

BTW, I define NEUTRAL as the gear in which too many people in our country park their brains.

Mary - If "everyone thought like Americans" they'd have a President like Obama and the Middle East would exist with a better relationship with the United States. I'm not sure why you and John perceive all Middle Easterners as enemies. Talk about serious generalizations!

JUN

Tchaka, everyone out there is forgetting that we engineered the overthrow of a democratically elected government in Iran in 1953? The start of the problems in that country. I wish I could get selective amnesia sometime.

Anybody who brings up " Bible Prophecy " in a political discussion is going to be impossible to reason with. You could point out 100 reasons why they are getting it wrong and they will just say " The Bible says......". You can't win.

Tchaka,

Your right, Hitler took his own life, because he knew his time had come to an end. American Forces had a boot on his neck and he took the cowards way out. If not for American forces who knows what Hitler would have accomplished with his madness. I love the Neutral analogy. However the jury is still out on President Obama.

Most people don't understand the history of middle east conflict, which is really no different from Hitler's actions, the killing in Bosnia, Somalia, Kuwait, Georgia, it all comes down to genocide. If we must bring the Bible into this conversation, I hope we can all agree it tells us that conflict has been around since the beginning of mankind and war is what mankind does best. How sad!

My point is this, freedom is not free! I'll say it again, for those of you who have never been in a voilent confrontation. "The only way to deal with a violent individual hell bent on hurting innocent people, is to be more violent!"

America has defended human rights around the globe, while the UN and the rest of the world does nothing. Sometimes we are forced to do ugly things to achieve the greater good. Those of you who have never been on the battle field will never understand the sacrifices or the committment necessary to achieve the greater good. Until the WORLD stands up united against voilent behavior, every American Leader will have difficult decisions to struggle with.

May this Country or it's people never loose sight of the pursuit of LIBERTY & JUSTICE FOR ALL!

Isreal, it's not a question of "reasoning" when one brings up Bible Prophecy. 96% of the prophecies in the bible have come to pass. if you have the time, read this article written 12 years before the crash of the Soviet Union-- and if you don't believe what the bible says, well that's your problem, not mine.

If your don't have time for that then consider the following:

"the Bible accurately foretells specific events-in detail-many years, sometimes centuries, before they occur. Approximately 2500 prophecies appear in the pages of the Bible, about 2000 of which already have been fulfilled to the letter—no errors. (The remaining 500 or so reach into the future and may be seen unfolding as days go by.) Since the probability for any one of these prophecies having been fulfilled by chance averages less than one in ten (figured very conservatively) and since the prophecies are for the most part independent of one another, the odds for all these prophecies having been fulfilled by chance without error is less than one in 10²⁰⁰⁰ (that is 1 with 2000 zeros written after it)!"

Source

Tchaka, I do appreciate your suggestions and we could compare the veracity of sources all day long, it still doesn't change the fact that we have a President who is selling us out; whose judgment is highly questionable, especially when it comes to foreing affairs (Hilliary Clinton said as much in her campaign about Obama--he is naive.) So, you may think my sources are laughable, but I fear our enemies will have the last laugh--in fact, they are laughing at us now.

Gary, Liberals are fixated on blaming, just as OBAMA insists on saying repeatedly that he inherited all of the "problems" from Bush. All Presidents before Obama had to deal with problems and did so without blaming prior administrations. Obama lovers are in la la land. Bush was not perfect, nor has any President been so--but his policies kept us safe. Obama's, on the other hand, are undermining our security as well as our economy. He appears to be smart--reminds me of the kid who got all A's in school but couldn't tie his shoe laces.

John - Please be more careful with your numbers - at least with regard to the Bible and Prophecy.

In your first paragraph you claim: "96% of the prophecies in the bible have come to pass." But then two paragrapns later you quote: "Approximately 2500 prophecies appear in the pages of the Bible, about 2000 of which already have been fulfilled to the letter—no errors. (The remaining 500 or so reach into the future and may be seen unfolding as days go by.)"

2000 out of 2500 is only 80%. And 80% is NOT 96%.

That's all without even bothering to go to your sources.

Yes, the Bible has an absolutly incredible record of accuracy in terms of fulfilled prophecy. Far beyond mere "coincidence." But that in no way means we can be loose with our accounting of that.

I say this as one who used to openly call myself a Christian, but have more recently felt the need to just say I'm a follower of Christ as a result of the poor examples set by so many others who claim the title of Christian.

Are you guys nuts? Finally we have a president who can actually pronounce three syllable words. I believe their is a strong amount of jealousy towards Obama because he seems very intelligent ,sincere, and working for the majority of Americans who need it most.

JUN

How right you are. It is amazing that this elected official is still liked and admired by many Americans. They still do not see the direction this country is taking. The take their freedom and rights as Americans for granted. Do they not see that soon many of our freedoms and rights will be restricted if this man and the dems have their way.

And I wonder? How many democratic congress and senate members are beginning to turn against him? They haven't voice it yet due to the majority leadership, but I believe it is coming and then we will see that things are NOT moving his way--just like funding for the closure of Gitmo. The Republican leadership has passed so many opportunities to speak up and be heard on so many issues that I believe that we as Americans need to vote them out and replace them with those that think as we do.

Pat - Which freedoms and rights are you referring to?

Elizabeth, yeah you're right, George had problems pronouncing words like Nukeler (Nuclear) and that's one of the words Obama doesn't seem to get. He also doesn't get "Terrorist", "Israel" "Debt" and a whole host of other words. But, he is very, very smart and well spoken.

Pat, 'splain right to Tchaka. If I try, he'll tell me my sources are laughable.

David, you're right about that-- was very careless of me.

As to your remark:

"I say this as one who used to openly call myself a Christian, but have more recently felt the need to just say I'm a follower of Christ, as a result of the poor examples set by so many others who claim the title of Christian."

Christians are human. We are all fall short of the glory of God. Jesus said: "There is no one good no at one" But, that might not include you--your statement about other Christians sounds awfully self-righteous to me.

You see, at least some of us know we mess up every single day. Thank God we have a Savior who can forgive us our sins--that is if we can admit them, confess them and resolve to turn away from them toward Him.

And Hey, thanks so much for pointing out my error.

David and John

Therefore by their fruits you will know them Mathew 7:20

John - it's not that I think I am perfect, nor that I think any self-proclaimed Christian is or should be perfect (save Christ himself), but rather what passes for "Christianity" yet could only be described offensive, if not blasphemous. Off the top of my head one "church" comes to mind: Westboro Baptist. Over the years, I've heard of others that spread their "gospel" of hate and death, and yet somehow seem to believe they are "christian." Similarly, I've run into quite a few individuals who claim to be "christians" but who do more to hurt the cause of Christ than help it. (For example, I believe one is seriously twisting the message of Christ when the objective is to incite people to insult, persecute, and say evil things about the "spreader of the gospel". And on the other end, there are a significant number of self-proclaimed "christians" who's only claim to the name is that they attend a church most years at Christmas and/or Easter, or perhaps slightly more often.)

From my perspective, the term "Christian" has been twisted in our culture to mean something other than one who follows Christ. It's loke so many other words/ideas that have been morphed over the years, to the point that to use the word in its original meaning, one has to include disclaimers or explanations. (For an example, using a word that's not politically charged, consider the original meaning of "prevent" as used in here. Reading that Kings English translation, with a modern understanding of the word "prevent" it looks like a previously unknown miracle! But compare that to a modern translation such as this. Yes, "prevent" has changed meaning between the 18th and the 21st centuries. So too, I'm no longer likely to describe myself as "gay" - even though I may be in a lively mood or merry. Despite the order of the definitions, that word's meaning is now generally first associated with sexual orientation.)

I agree whole-heartedly with Hugh. It's not so much about using a name (which Christ never used to describe his followers) as it is about seeing what is done and the attitudes that are adopted. Watch for behavior and results. Everyone messes up. But in the long run (and with a long-term perspective) the truth will be seen.

JUN

John,

I think this administration is treading on thin ice. I also think Obama doesn't have enough experience or backbone to play hardball with a world that's afraid to deal with the leaders of N. Korea or Iran. Again I'll say the United Nations worthless...

What scares me is that most Americans honestly think being nice to bad people and apologizing is actually going make it safer for us. Now is not the time to be indecisive or show weakness to our enemies. We owe no one an apology, our efforts around the globe have been for the greater good. Can anyone name one country that has handed out the kind of money or military support we have for humanitarian reasons. How much has the American taxpayer given Palestine recently, how much did the American taxpayer do for aids in Africa. The list goes on and on. I wonder, did any countries come to our aid when Katrina hit.

Who's done more then any of our presidents with regards to the peace process in the Middle East. Trying to stop the conflict in the Middle East is like trying to stop gang violence in our country. I'll agree were not perfect but our intentions are for the greater good of mankind and this country certainly has done a hell of alot more then any other country on the planet.

So Apologize, I think not! Be nice to countries that harbor terrorist, hell no! Be afraid to be harsh with countries that don't like our way of life, who cares nothing we do is going to change their minds anyway. Allow innocent people to be oppressed or exterminated because of race or religion, I'll fight against anyone who thinks that's ok !!!!!

Wake up America, this war against terrorists is for real and it's to late to worry about who started it. The stakes are high and there are no do overs!

Interesting discussion. The right will hate whatever Obama does. The left will support whatever he does. Talk about Kool-Aid, I do believe both sides are adding powder to the water. For me, I believe that Obama is smarter than the average bear. I guess we'll see.

John - I only laugh at the laughable ones. And regarding your earlier comment, he's doing just fine in foreign affairs. He's seeing the bigger picture, which is exactly what I need a President of the US to do.

Gary - You've packed a lot of subjects into one comment. You are correct in a number of the things you wrote, however I do have a few comments/questions based on what you wrote:

1. Because we do a lot for the greater good does not mean we don't err. An apology goes a long way.

2. Sadat and King Hussein did a lot for the ME peace process.

3. American taxpayer money isn't the #1 need of Palestinians.

4. Are you ready to talk to Iran, now that we've made them the #1 power in the ME?

Jason, "the right" doesn't "hate" what Obama does, it abhors his assault on our freedom, on our bank accounts, on our history and good accomplishments. Wake up and smell the coffee

Tchaka, I find laughing at someones contribution--as if "the laugher" holds the key to all truth, as arrogant--kind of like out President.

David, I appreciate your response. what I suggest to you, is to pray for those who are nominal Christians, witness to them; pray for their conversion of heart. What I will say is that the Gospel message has been watered down, their are confusing signals sent out by leadership of many Churches with respect to what is morally right. And, this is a topic for a separate another post--

Hey Gary, I am with you, all the way. Americans better start reading; learn what's really going on; turn off Oprah, and get real.

Using Bible Prophecy to prove a point is not acceptable in intellectual debate. If a Buddhist started telling you he was right based on his religion, you would laugh him out of the building. It is unproven and unprovable.

Israel, who made the rule: "using bible prophecy to prove a point is not acceptable in intellectual debate?" And, second, why isn't it? I'd like to know. Lastly, I made a comment to Mary about Bible Prophecy, I wasn't using it as a proof for any discussion here. I made a statement as to what I believe. People are free to agree or not.

John- You already know all the answers to the questions you are asking. We need to operate in the real world to be taken seriously. It is akin to my saying " I am an expert on The Lord Of The Rings and your argument is moot because the great book tells us Sauron will be defeated and everything will be okay."

JUN

Israel, with all due respect, your answer is a cop out. Who made "the rule" you mention? The Lord of the Rings is 'fiction', isn't it? Unless you're telling me that you believe the Bible is fiction? You are making up your own rules and they make no sense--at least to me.

You cannot prove the Bible isn't fiction. That is the point. You can't expect to win an argument using data that is unprovable. Religion and logic are not good bedfellows. You, of course, can use bible prophecy in your arguments all you like, just don't expect to be taken seriously.

On a side note, I don't believe that the Bible is entirely fiction. I think that there really was a King David and that many of the places and events actually transpired. Historically, it seems to be very accurate in places. I am an agnostic and don't purport to have the answers. I just contend that if you can't prove something, it is not admissible as evidence and should not be considered.

John - I appreciate you comparing me to our President. Thank you.

Israel - I agree the Bible isn't entirely fiction, however a good portion of what's in there likely is. Tales (some true, some not) are passed on and through generations and some scribes embellish.

JUN

John- I think obama should apologize to the people of Israel for not supporting them in THEIR War on Terror! Then he can apologize to us in 2012 after he loses.

Tchaka, wow, you disappoint me--you take a position without having done any research in this area. Should I take your word or the word of Scholars, Archaeologist, and non -Christians who have no axe to grind, who have more evidence that the Bible not a book of fables and myths?

Larry, Obama is a wrecking ball. Here we have a democracy in the middle of it's enemies, a strategic ally -- he's insulted and kiss them off; and he is arrogant in his insistence on no settlements.

He has done a great deal to harm relations with Israel who knows, I am sure, that they are on Their Own, now.

Israel you said,

"you cannot prove the Bible isn't fiction. That is the point."

It has been proven, over and over again.

One of the greatest evidences is one you dismiss and that is prophecy.

What is written in Scripture has ALREADY come to pass? When something predicted and comes to pass and this happens over and over--what would you think of that?

Could it be that the 20% of prophecy, not fulfilled will also come to pass?

These are just the Messianic Prophecies that have been fulfilled:

Jesus would be born of a virgin Isaiah 7:14--Fulfilled in Matt. 1:18,25, "This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary...was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit... But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus."

Jesus' place of birth in Bethlehem Micah 5:2, Fulfilled in Matt. 2:1, "After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem."

Jesus would be preceded by a messenger Isaiah 40:3, Fulfilled in Matt. 3:1-2,

Rejected by His own people Isaiah 53:3--Fulfilled in John 7:5, "For even his own brothers did not believe in him," and John 7:48, "Have any of the rulers or the Pharisees believed in Him?"

Jesus' side pierced Zech. 12:10--Fulfilled in John 19:34, "Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water."

Jesus would be crucified Psalm 22:1, Psalm 22:11-18--Fulfilled in John 19:23-24, "When the soldiers crucified Jesus, they took his clothes, dividing them into four shares, one for each of them, with the undergarment remaining. This garment was seamless, woven in one piece from top to bottom. Let's not tear it, they said to one another. "Let's decide by lot who will get it." This happened that the scripture might be fulfilled which said, "They divided my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing." So this is what the soldiers did." for more detail search this website

And one more thing, there are eye-witness accounts, historical documents and more that are proofs that is is God’s truth

Lastly, the bible is about one overarching subject and that is Jesus Christ—that he would be sent by the Father to save sinners. That Jesus would be offered as a sacrifice in place of us, who deserve to spend an eternity separated from God; that Jesus, indeed did die and he rose again from the dead

That he will Come Again, to judge both the living and the dead—

JUN

John ~ Keep preaching the faith that we have embraced, that has been proven in our hearts and nothing these atheists say can steal that hope we have in our hearts.

As for Obama doing hust fine in foreign policy? The brain washed are zombies for sure.

JUN

Hey Nick, thanks and you do the same, keep pounding away.

BeBlessed

JUN

John- Sorry to burst your bubble, but you can't prove any of that. The virgin birth is a major part of numerous near Eastern religions and how could you prove Jesus mother was a virgin? Many women have claimed to be virgins who weren't.

As for Jesus being born under a star. Look it up. Also, how can you prove he was even born in Bethlehem? Numerous instances of numerous Gods being born under a star. Also, it can't be proven. There is no contemporary mention of Jesus in any writings. Some sneaky Christians tried to slip some forged passages in Josephus, but were found out.

Much of The Bible has been lifted directly from Egyptian mythos and even earlier tales. Gilgamesh and the great flood for instance. Osiris was murdered and then rose from the dead three days afterwards. Basically everything you just pointed to as proven facts are hearsay and could be completely invented. That is why anything quoted from the Bible is inadmissible.

JUN

John, I hope that is the case but we had some relatives who voted for him and we are not hearing a word from them. Now mind you I have not called since they voted for him as I thought it was totally hypocritical.

JUN

When I see Obama Sticckers on the cars of people who are in their 40's,50.s and up who ought to know better, I cringe--maybe that's the case with you? Funny they don't want to talk about him now.

Israel you said

“John- Sorry to burst your bubble, but you can't prove any of that. The virgin birth is a major part of numerous near Eastern religions and how could you prove Jesus mother was a virgin? Many women have claimed to be virgins who weren't.”

When you say the virgin birth was a major part of eastern religions, whose birth and what virgin? Judeo-Christian Scripture offers it's own proof texts; I defy you to take any pagan myth and prove it's veracity by other ancient texts which claim the same thing.

There is preponderance of evidence that the claims made in the bible are true. How is this so?

Here is an example:

If you were a judge and a defendant came to you and said: I have proof that I didn’t steal a car on October 5^th, 2008 and I submit to you, this piece of paper that says, “I didn’t do it.”

The plaintiffs attorney comes to the bench and says, I have the eyewitness accounts of 20 people,

5 saw the defendant do it 5 recognized this individual in a video captured and aired on Most Wanted and called the police and there were 5 police officers who arrested this individual before for the same crime. There were also 5 inmates who heard the news recognized the MO of the defendant and are willing to testify that he told them he was going to steal the car.

This is what I mean by the weight of evidence. In the case of Scripture we have thousands of eyewitnesses. Thousands of pieces of written and verified evidence; thousands of Scholars, translators of ancient languages who attest to the credibility of every shred of ancient texts which would rigorously tested by over 70 translators spanning thousands of years.

You use this a proof to burst my bubble— “Numerous eastern religions: which ones and what are the claims?”

I submit to you that you are trying to burst it with a very dull pin”

When you refer me to virgin births in other religions, then, are you telling me that you believe virgin births occurred in the past— is that correct? If so, then believing a Virgin Birth of Christ is not a far stretch.

I also think you’re assuming that early Christians were ignorant. It is true that most of the apostles were uneducated men. On the other hand apostle Paul was a Pharisee, well educated, studying the Jewish law at the feet of Gamaliel

[ Gamaliel the Elder (gəmā'lēəl), or Rabbi Gamaliel I, was a leading authority in the Sanhedrin in the mid first century. He was the grandson of the great Jewish teacher Hillel the Elder, and died twenty years before the destruction of the second temple in Jerusalem. In the Christian tradition, Gamaliel is celebrated as a Pharisee doctor of Jewish Law, who was the teacher of Paul the Apostle ^[3]; the author of the Book of Acts portrays Gamaliel with great respect^[4].] In the Talmud, seven leaders of Hillel's school of thought, of which Gamaliel was the first, are given the title Rabban^[5] (master), a rabbinic title given to the Head of the Sanhedrin; although it is not doubted that Gamaliel genuinely held a senior position, whether he actually held this highest position has been disputed.^[1] Gamaliel holds a reputation in the Mishnah for being one of the greatest teachers in all the annals of Judaism:] (WIKIPEDIA)

None of Paul’s letters mention the Virgin Birth. Does that mean that it didn’t happen or he didn't believe it?

Paul’s mission was different than that of the other Apostles: In the four Gospels you have accounts that relate to Jesus coming, His life, His attributes, His miracles, His Crucifixion, Death and Resurrection all eye-witness accounts. In the Acts of the Apostles you have the History of the Church and an account of Paul’s ministry to the gentile world.

To him exclusively was given a secret mystery—From Paul’s letter to the Ephesian Church we read: (chapter 3:8-13)

“To me – less than the least of all the saints ¹⁹ – this grace was given,²⁰ to proclaim to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ 3:9 and to enlighten ²¹ everyone about God’s secret plan ²² – a secret that has been hidden for ages ²³in God ²⁴ who has created all things. 3:10 The purpose of this enlightenment is that ²⁵ through the church the multifaceted wisdom ²⁶ of God should now be disclosed to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly realms. 3:11 This was according to ²⁷ the eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord, 3:12 in whom we have boldness and confident access ²⁸ to God ²⁹ because of ³⁰ Christ’s ³¹ faithfulness.³² 3:13 For this reason I ask you ³³ not to lose heart because of what I am suffering for you,³⁴ which ³⁵is your glory.³⁶^{“ (Net Bible, Bible, org)}

Paul revealed this secret plan in a letter to believers in Ephesus, (it was written to them while Paul was imprisoned for his faith)

The Secret:

Before God made the world, He loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy (set apart) and without fault (without blemish)

Only a pure, holy and unstained vessel can contain a Holy God. The only way out of God’s sentence to an eternity of separation from Him and agonizing suffering forever is Christ.

The only way one can reach that level is to be cleansed God’s way—the only way to the Father is through the SON-- and that way was through the shed blood of Jesus—

He chose believers to be IN HIM before the foundation of the world.

I have been adopted into God’s family. All believers have also been adopted. Paul, wrote that the Gospel which he preached was foolishness to the world.

So, the virgin birth is just one stumbling block, for you and the “Secret” is huge--

So, you might think that I am a mad man. But, this is the Gospel truth.

God’s unchanging plan is and always has always been to adopt us into His family through His Son Jesus Christ. We learn in the Gospels that Jesus Christ offered His salvation over and over again. He offers it to you and all men and women this day.

It is our choice to accept His invitation or reject it.

Jesus never forced anyone to believe in Him or believe what He said:

Jesus said, “You shall know the truth and The Truth shall make you free” He also said, “ I am the way, The Truth and the Life.”

Jesus is Truth.

You would say that I am mad. Christ is dead, you would say. NO, Christ is alive and he lives in me and ever Christian who calls Him Lord. Do you want to hear something even crazier: Right NOW, I am seated with Christ in heavenly places—that is My Spirit is seated with Him. My eternity with Him has already begun. When I live I am with Him, and In Him and when my body dies, My spirit is still with Him.

The Body is only a tent for the Soul and spirit. When you die, do you know where your spirit will reside?

So, you see believing in the Virgin Birth, although important in the scheme of things becomes a lesser matter than believing what Christ preached while on earth and contained in the bible. I can connect with Jesus, in this way, and by my spirit.

You will not be able to accept these spiritual truths. The world, outside of Christ, cannot. It is because you ears to hear and eyes to see, but you cannot hear nor can you see.

I don’t mean to offend you.

It is a spiritual truth. Only the Holy Spirit of God can give you the light and the heart to take all of God’s word and believe it. This is faith.

“ faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the preached word¹ of Christ.² “ Paul’s Letter to the Roman Church 10:17

The apostle Paul believed wholeheartedly in the divinity of Jesus. Jesus--God-man-- could be born of man and woman—he was “BORN of woman (according to the scriptures) and the “seed of Abraham” This is a spiritual seed.

This is confirmed in the New Testament accounts. Jesus came as flesh and blood. He was God’s only begotten son--

How is one begotten, not by Human means. He came to earth with the major and ultimate purpose: To die in our place so that all who believe in Him, might live forever.

Jesus had to die in Your place and my place and every single sinners place—Why? Because there is NOTHING you can do to become acceptable to God. We are all sinners who fall short of the high mark God sets: absolute Holiness, Purity and Integrity.

Apart from Christ, we are all unclean and unworthy in God’s eyes.

You and I can’t be good enough, do enough, to please God. Only Christ is pleasing enough to God—only he is able to pay our sin debt—no human would be acceptable enough.

This is the Truth spelled out in God’s word, starting with the Book of Genesis and ending with Revelation

Did you ever here of will Durant? He was an agnostic like you, but could not dispute the historicity of Jesus.

Will Durant

Secular scholar Will Durant, left the Catholic Church and embraced humanism—here is what he said in one of his history of Civilization--volumes: Caesar and Christ (the third volume of his Story of Civilivation), the

“The Christian evidence for Christ begins with the letters ascribed to Saint Paul. Some of these are of uncertain authorship; several, antedating A.D. 64, are almost universally accounted as substantially genuine. No one has questioned the existence of Paul, or his repeated meetings with Peter, James, and John; and Paul enviously admits that these men had known Christ in his flesh. The accepted epistles frequently refer to the Last Supper and the Crucifixion.... The contradictions are of minutiae, not substance; in essentials the synoptic gospels agree remarkably well, and form a consistent portrait of Christ. In the enthusiasm of its discoveries the Higher Criticism has applied to the New Testament tests of authenticity so severe that by them a hundred ancient worthies,

for example Hammurabi, David, Socrates would fade into legend. Despite the prejudices and theological preconceptions of the evangelists, they record many incidents that mere inventors would have concealed the competition of the apostles for high places in the Kingdom, their flight after Jesus' arrest, Peter's denial, the failure of Christ to work miracles in Galilee, the references of some auditors to his possible insanity, his early uncertainty as to his mission, his confessions of ignorance as to the future, his moments of bitterness, his despairing cry on the cross; no one reading these scenes can doubt the reality of the figure behind them.

That a few simple men should in one generation have invented so powerful and appealing a personality, so loft an ethic and so inspiring a vision of human brotherhood, would be a miracle far more incredible than any recorded in the Gospel.

After two centuries of Higher Criticism the outlines of the life, character, and teaching of Christ, remain reasonably clear, and constitute the most fascinating feature of the history of Western man.

This is but one example; Now, if you want to deny the virgin birth, OK. The Bible is not a science book. But, if Will Durant cannot deny the Historicity of Christ, then why would one take bits and pieces out of the New Testament accounts and determine that lies were written.

How could it be that a church that was begun over 2000 years ago and has expanded world-wide and continues to grow even in the face of persecutions; a church (Christ’s body) that raises up men and woman who are willing to die—even, today-- because they would not and will not deny Christ, or refuse to bow to pressure to worship other gods?

The blood of the saints are on the hands of those who have killed innocent people for their faith. Were these people insane? Were they stupid?

Christianity—real Christianity is not for whimps. The cost of denying Christ is high.

I am not willing to deny Christ.

“But whoever denies me before people, I will deny him also before my Father in heaven.” ( Matthew 10:33)

None of the books of eastern religions can claim that they are literally God-breathed. (Divinely inspired.)

The bible is not a manufactured book—it is a collection of writings which were not included, willy-nilly.

There were stringent requirements for any writings to be included in the “Canon” of Scripture. Many writings from antiquity were not included, because they were deemed as NOT divinely inspired. It took many centuries and 70 translators of ancient languages, the examination of ancient texts including, Archaeology, councils of the Fathers of the Church to corroborate so much of what is described in the ancient texts.

Modern techniques, the discovery of the dead sea scrolls have shed more light on the scriptures, handed down for over 2000 years.

Doesn’t all of this seem like a lot of trouble to go for a book that you call a myth?

The Gospels were written by eyewitnesses; in the Gospel of Matthew we have a genealogy of stretching from the old testament, tracing his lineage down through the ages; confirming his coming (Genesis 3:7 ) and the Virgin Birth Isaiah 17.

If one part of the bible is not true, than all of it is not true. God’s word IS truth. It is not a book. It is 66 separate books that are internally consistent. One book does not contradict the other.

We can compare “scripture with scripture” and see there are no contradictions. The “contradictions that bible bashers come up with can be disproved and have been disproved by scholars.

Back to the virgin birth: In the Gospel of Luke, we have more corroboration: Luke, who was not only an apostle but also a medical doctor, writes about all that led up to the birth of Jesus. He indicates that Joseph, Mary’s husband, thought she had conceived a baby by another man because he did not have any sexual relations with her. Do you think this man was a fool or could be fooled?

Of course, you could make the claim that all of this is all made up. If you’re a man of reason and you took the time to read; you’d see that the Holy Scripture proves itself, down through the ages; the virgin birth is not provable by any scientific means. There is logic. There is the weight of the evidence. Then, there is faith.

What are the chances that we could have in the Old Testament a claim that something was to happen and in the New Testament we have this happen? We already covered this ground.

Do you believe that you are more wise, more learned, more well versed than all of the academics, archaeologist; and experts in Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic?

Has any effort been made to prove the claims of the Koran?

Would you believe Buddah? He lived 500 years before Jesus and “prophesied” his coming

http://bibleprobe.com/buddhatoldofjesus.htm

So, if there is a bubble to pop it’s yours.

And speaking of science, you say you are an agnostic—you either don’t believe God exists or you’re unsure—therefore, one could never bring God into any polemic.

But, perhaps this will help you: These notable Scientists believed in God. Did they know something you don’t?

Nicholas Copernicus (1473-1543)

Sir Francis Bacon (1561-1627)

Johannes Kepler (1571-1630)

Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)

Rene Descartes (1596-1650)

Isaac Newton (1642-1727)

Robert Boyle (1791-1867)

Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

You said:

“As for Jesus being born under a star. Look it up. Also, how can you prove he was even born in Bethlehem?

I rest upon what I’ve already stated.

You said:

“Numerous instances of numerous Gods being born under a star.”

Which ones, do you have a number of sources which indicate the same thing?

You said:

There is no contemporary mention of Jesus in any writings. Some sneaky Christians tried to slip some forged passages in Josephus, but were found out.

There is some grain of concern about these texts:

“The problem with the copies of Antiquities is that they appear to have been rewritten in favor of Jesus as they are very favorable, some say too favorable to have been written by a Jew. Add to this that the Christians were the ones who kept and made the copies of the Josephus documents throughout history and you have a shadow of doubt cast upon the quotes.”

This is the truth about the writings of Josephus, with respect to Jesus:

“The Testimonium Flavianum cannot be so easily dismissed as pure Christian interpolation (insertion into the text). Though it seems probable that interpolation did occur, we cannot be sure what was added. Also, the Arabic version contains very similar information as the Greek one regarding Jesus in His resurrection.

Even if both versions have been tampered with, the core of them both mentions Jesus as a historical figure who was able to perform many surprising feats, was crucified, and that there were followers of Jesus who were still in existence at the time of its writing.

You said:

Much of The Bible has been lifted directly from Egyptian mythos and even earlier tales. Gilgamesh and the great flood for instance.

I rest my case

You said:

Osiris was murdered and then rose from the dead three days afterwards.

Give me the eyewitness accounts; give me the texts and the proof; the weight of evidence?

Basically everything you just pointed to as proven facts are hearsay and could be completely invented. That is why anything quoted from the Bible is inadmissible.

I want to thank you for your response to my posts. I have learned from it. I dare you to do this:

Get a bible. Pray to the “God who isn’t there” and ask Him to open your heart, your ears and your eyes.

This is my prayer for you--that the Holy Spirit of God will draw you to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. God Bless you my friend.

JUN

John- Man, that was a long read:) Obviously you are a man of faith, and that is great. I was never trying to imply that I thought Jesus never existed. I was just trying to make the point that there are no contemporary sources that mention him. He was never written about until after he was dead. That is why all of the tales about him cannot be verified. You cannot use stories from The Bible to prove the accuracy of The Bible.

This link will show you some similarities between Christ and other Indo European myth types. http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa4.htm

Life events shared by Jesus and another god-man:

There are numerous god-men in the ancient Mediterranean area and Middle East. There are many stories that appear both in Jesus' biography and in the legends of another god-man:

Mother's pregnancy: It was a common belief among early Christians that Mary was pregnant for only seven months. This legend is preserved in the Gospel of the Hebrews. Although this gospel was widely used by early Christians, it was never accepted into the official canon. Semele, mother of Dionysus, was also believed to have had a 7 month pregnancy.
Virgin birth: Author William Harwood has written that Jesus' "equation in Greek eyes with the resurrected savior-god Dionysos led an interpolator to insert a virgin-birth myth into the gospel now known as Matthew." ₁
Birth Witnesses:
- The gospel of Matthew records that Jesus was visited by an unknown number of wise men, called Magi.
  - Authors Freke & Gandy identify them as followers of the god man Mithras from Persia. ₄
  - Most other sources believe that they were Zoroastrian priests from Persia who were experts in astrology. There is a Zoroastrian belief "that a son of Zoroaster will be born many years after his death by a virgin...This son will apparantly [sic] raise the dead and crush the forces of evil. Later Christians got rather excited about this apparant [sic] pagan prophecy of the coming of the Messiah..." ₂
- The gospel of Luke records that Jesus was visited by three shepherds. Mithra the god man from Persia was also visited shortly after birth by three shepherds.
- The magi brought gold, frankincense and myrrh. A Pagan belief from the 6^th century BCE states that these are the precise materials to use when worshiping God.
Healing: Jesus is recorded throughout the gospels as healing the sick and restoring the dead to life. So was Asclepius, a Greek god man. Pagans and early Christians debated who was the more effective healer.
Ministry: Jesus appeared as a wandering holy man who is later transfigured in the presence of some of his disciples. Dionysus was portrayed in the same manner in Euripides' play The Bacchae, written in 410 BCE.
Miracles:
- Both Jesus and Empedocles were recorded as teaching spiritual truths, curing illness, foretelling the future, controlling the wind and rain, and raising people from the dead.
- Both Mithra and Jesus performed many healings of the sick and mentally ill; both raised the dead. ₃
- Mark, chapter 5 describes Jesus driving demons from a man into a herd of about 2,000 pigs who rushed over a cliff and drowned. In Eleusis, about 2,000 initiates would bathe in the sea. Each had a young pig to which the believers' sins would be transferred. The pigs were then chased over a chasm and killed.
Fishing: John 21:11 records that Jesus performed a miracle which enabled Simon Peter to catch exactly 153 fish. The Pagan Pythagoras considered 153 a sacred number. The ratio of 153 to 265 was referred to by the Pagan Archimedes as "the measure of the fish." That ratio is used to generate a fish-like shape using two circles. The sign of the fish was used by the early Christians as their main symbol.
Arrest:
- Both Dionysus and Jesus celebrated a Last Supper with his 12 disciples before his death.
- Dionysus is described in Euripides' play The Bacchae as bringing a new religion to the people, being plotted against by the leaders, being arrested and appearing before the political ruler. Dionysus said to his captors "You know not what you are doing..," almost replicating Jesus' words at the cross. He was unjustly accused and executed. All of these themes are seen in the Gospels.

Crucifixion & resurrection:
- Jesus' body was wrapped in linen and anointed with myrrh and aloe. Osiris was also said to have been wrapped in linen and anointed with myrrh.

Again, the god men myths had been circulating well before Jesus birth. The Christians would have copied earlier Pagan material, not vice-versa.

Author Kersey Graves wrote a book in 1875 titled "The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors." It lists 346 "striking analogies between Christ and Chrishna." A selection of the precise matches between Yeshua's and Krishna's life is listed in a separate essay.

I am not trying to say your beliefs are less real than any others. Just trying to point out that there are many different facets to every story. Which is why religion cannot be used in arguments that require logic.

Israel - I was planning to stay out of this tangent, but you've piqued my interest enough to ask:

Of all the other myths you mentioned, which one(s) were believed by the authors' contemporaries to be historically accurate non-myths as opposed to mythical moral-fiction to teach some principle? Those you've mentioned as "god-men" - Dionysus, Mithra, & Asclepius - don't appear to qualify, at least not if Wikipedia's accounts of them are anything close to complete. Jesus, on the other hand, while written about after his death, was most certainly known by the accounts' authors' contemporaries to be real, and the contemporaries of the authors of the accounts of Jesus' life would have most likely put down any of the mythmaking - and in fact they attempted to claim that some of the details were false, as evidenced in the accounts of the resurrection.

The earliest account of Jesus' life was apparently written within 25 years of his death.

For comparison, if people today were exalting some character who was killed in 1984-1985 to god-man status, attributing all manner of miracles to him, and quotes claiming he had proclaimed himself to be "I AM" to an audience that would have clearly understood that to be a claim of deity... if people today were to try to do that, how long do you think it would take for that to be completely shot down as fiction?

That said, I tend to agree that religious arguments are not suitable for scientific discussions, just as logic arguments are not suitable for faith discussions. Blind reason is at least as dangerous as blind faith.

David- Scientology proves my point. People will believe anything. I don't claim to have the answers. Spirituality is the providence of each individual. Like you, I think that religious proclamations and Bible Prophecy are not going to win you any political arguments. Everything in it's proper place. Is that from The Bible:)

Off the top of my head... I don't recall that as a direct quote. But it's pretty similar to the famous verse "To everything there is a season, A time for every purpose under heaven: " which you may remember more from The Byrds' song "Turn, Turn, Turn".

David, The Christian faith is not a blind faith. Are Christians blindly following Jesus? Are they robots who are unable to use their reason?

For instance, Christians are at the forefront of the fight against abortion

What lies behind their desire to end it? Do you think there is any reason that people want to end abortion?

"What are the logical implications of God's commands--we can deduce this command by comparing scripture with scripture.

·     Murdering living persons is sin. Exodus 20:13. Matthew 19:18.

·     To unlawfully kill a person with premeditation is murder. Deuteronomy 19:4, 11.

·     Pre-born children are living persons. Jeremiah 1:5; Luke 1:41.

·     Abortion is killing a living pre-born child

·     Therefore, abortion is murder and a sin."

The logic is clear, no one can deny it. The conclusion is true, if you believe the Bible.”

http://www.fallacydetective.com/articles/read/reasons-from-the-bible-to-study-logic

Israel, do any of these "gods" have a worldwide Church that continues to expand; where it's followers are willing to preach the truth even in the face of certain death in some countries?

Was the story of Jesus stolen from that of the Egyptian deites Horus and Osiris?

NOT

John- Those Gods had many followers before they passed on for various reasons. The story of Jesus is very similar to those dieties you mentioned. Many ancient dieties were killed and then rose from the dead. Many were born of virgin mothers. Many of them performed miracles. I'm not trying to upset you, I am just passing on information. Most Christians refuse to even entertain the idea that Judaism and Christianity borrowed from earlier faiths, but it is true. The church even made a concerted effort to juxtapose it's holy days over existing pagan holidays. Christmas, Easter, etc already existed under different names from different faiths. Since Christianity was spread by the sword in many instances, it made sense to keep things as similar as possible to prevent uprisings and chaos.

Look up the Epic of Gilgamesh for an earlier version of The Great Flood. Even a cursory examination of Indo-European faiths will bring to light numerous similarites. One only has to look at The Viking peoples to see a textbook example of Christianity superceding an existing faith in an effort to unify a population to better keep them in check. With the crusading spirit of Christian armies, it is no wonder the faith is as far reaching as it is. The promise of eternal hellfire is a potent deterent to independent thought in a subject people.

John - Let me respond to you a bit at a time.

The Christian faith is not a blind faith.

Agreed.

Are Christians blindly following Jesus?

Some are. But not all. (I don't believe 75+% of the population is intelligently following Christ. Many are merely giving lip-service or blindly following traditions - not thoughtfully following Jesus. (If they were thoughtfully following Him, I believe our country would have a VERY different moral culture.)

Are they robots who are unable to use their reason?

Unable? No. Unwilling? Apparently. But again, to avoid the anticipated objection, that most certainly does NOT apply to all Christians or "followers of Christ."

For instance, Christians are at the forefront of the fight against abortion. What lies behind their desire to end it? Do you think there is any reason that people want to end abortion?

Yes. In some cases the "reason" is that they've been told it's evil and that God would punish them if they even considered it a possibility. But in many other cases they've seriously thought through their position and its implications.

"What are the logical implications of God's commands--we can deduce this command by comparing scripture with scripture. · Murdering living persons is sin. Exodus 20:13. Matthew 19:18. · To unlawfully kill a person with premeditation is murder. Deuteronomy 19:4, 11. · Pre-born children are living persons. Jeremiah 1:5; Luke 1:41. · Abortion is killing a living pre-born child · Therefore, abortion is murder and a sin." The logic is clear, no one can deny it. The conclusion is true, if you believe the Bible.”

As I've noted before, in one of my blog posts (I believe I titled it "Choice"), I have a quibble with your interpretation of the meaning Jeremiah 1:5 - I believe it's a verse indication the omniscient and eternal nature of God. But otherwise, I see no problem with the logic. (I'll let you read my post to understand my perspective.)

JUN

Israel--you can recite all of the typical answers given by those who insist that the judeo-christian scriptures are mere copies of myths. It may well be that there are similarities in antiquity--but you have not addressed any of the questions that I put in my long response

Give me the eyewitness accounts; give me the texts and the proof--show me the extent of scholarly research that was or is undertaken to prove any of what you use as examples-- and they are really weak examples--

John- You are calling my examples weak? You are just using circular logic. The Bible says it is so. The Bible is infallible. That is your argument.

You are asking for eyewitness accounts of Osiris rising from the dead? Osiris isn't real. He is a myth that people worshipped a long time ago and never really existed. How can you have an eyewitness to something that never happened. I'm sure there were priests who claimed to have seen it just like there were disciples who claimed to have seen Christ risen. Just like there are Scientologists who claim to have proof of Xenu or Joseph Smith who claims an angel gave him golden plates that nobody else was allowed to see.

You can't ask for absurd information and then claim victory when the impossible is not produced.

circular logic

JUN

Israel...yes, I am calling your examples weak.

"Circular Reasoning – supporting a premise with the premise rather than a conclusion. "

Circular reasoning is an attempt to support a statement by simply repeating the statement in different or stronger terms. In this fallacy, the reason given is nothing more than a restatement of the conclusion that poses as the reason for the conclusion. To say, “You should exercise because it’s good for you” is really saying, “You should exercise because you should exercise.”

This is essentially what you've done in your responses. Your "proofs" are weak. You are engaging in what you accuse me of doing, just restating what you already believe—is this blind faith?

You said, "There are many stories that appear both in Jesus' biography and in the legends of another god-man" there is no verification, no supporting documents, no research that demonstrates that there is a grain of truth in all of these "stories" That is what they are.

I asked you to give me "eyewitness accounts" Not just one person’s claim. I asked you to identify the virgins and who they gave birth to--you just copy and pasted from the lowest, most unreliable source (religious tolerance) You have ignored all that I've said in support of my position-- I've pointed to an atheist, historian there are thousands of sources which will support the position that the bible is not a collection of myths. What works and what research, what scholars support any of your positions?

Mock me all you want.  What all that is written about gods cannot do is point to the Savior, who is, who was and who is to come. There is no forgiveness of sin, nor salvation through any other god but the true God, and only through His Son.

The resurrection of Christ was the great proof of his being the Son of God.--There were eyewitness accounts; you can deny it all you want.

Below is the apostle Paul's discourse given in Antioch. For your information, Paul, prior to his conversion, was a persecutor of Christians; seeking them out, wanting to snuff them out, applauding the stoning to death of Christians. What changed his mind?

Paul was either a dope or on dope or there was something to what he preached.

The footnotes are to cross references from both old and new testaments--pay particular attention to the Old Testament references.

So, if Paul was making this stuff up, he did a pretty good job, wouldn't you say--Jesus coming was no surprise. Nor was His death and resurrection.

¹⁶Paul stood up, and ^(A)motioning with his hand said, "Men of Israel, and ^(B)you who fear God, listen:

¹⁷"The God of this people Israel ^(C)chose our fathers and ^(D)made the people great during their stay in the land of Egypt, and with an uplifted arm ^(E)He led them out from it.

¹⁸"For ^(F)a period of about forty years ^(G)He put up with them in the wilderness.

¹⁹"^(H)When He had destroyed ^(I)seven nations in the land of Canaan, He ^(J)distributed their land as an inheritance--all of which took ^(K)about four hundred and fifty years.

²⁰"After these things He ^(L)gave them judges until^(M)Samuel the prophet.

²¹"Then they ^(N)asked for a king, and God gave them^(O)Saul the son of Kish, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, for forty years.

²²"After He had ^(P)removed him, He raised up David to be their king, concerning whom He also testified and said, '^(Q)I HAVE FOUND DAVID the son of Jesse, A MAN AFTER MY HEART, who will do all My will.'

²³"⁽^R)From the descendants of this man, ⁽^S)according to promise, God has brought to Israel ⁽^T)a Savior, Jesus,

²⁴after ⁽^U)John had proclaimed before His coming a^(V)baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

²⁵"And while John ^(W)was completing his course,^(X)he kept saying, 'What do you suppose that I am? I am not He. But behold, one is coming after me the sandals of whose feet I am not worthy to untie.'

²⁶"Brethren, sons of Abraham's family, and those among you who fear God, to us the message of⁽^Y)this salvation has been sent.

²⁷"For those who live in Jerusalem, and their^(Z)rulers, ^(AA)recognizing neither Him nor the utterances of ^(AB)the prophets which are ^(AC)read every Sabbath, fulfilled these by condemning Him.

²⁸"And though they found no ground for putting Him to death, they ^(AD)asked Pilate that He be executed.

²⁹"When they had ⁽^AE)carried out all that was written concerning Him, ^(AF)they took Him down from ^(AG)the cross and ^(AH)laid Him in a tomb.

³⁰"But God ^(AI)raised Him from the dead;

³¹and for many days ^(AJ)He appeared to those who came up with Him from Galilee to Jerusalem, the very ones who are now ⁽^AK)His witnesses to the people.

³²"And we ^(AL)preach to you the good news of ^(AM)the promise made to the fathers,

³³that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He ⁽^AN)raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, '⁽^AO)YOU ARE MY SON; TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU.'

³⁴"As for the fact that He ^(AP)raised Him up from the dead, no longer to return to decay, He has spoken in this way: '^(AQ)I WILL GIVE YOU THE HOLY and SURE blessings OF DAVID.'

³⁵"Therefore He also says in another Psalm, '⁽^AR)YOU WILL NOT ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.'

³⁶"For ^(AS)David, after he had served ^(AT)the purpose of God in his own generation, ^(AU)fell asleep, and was laid among his fathers and underwent decay;

³⁷but He whom God ^(AV)raised did not undergo decay.

³⁸"Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that⁽^AW)through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,

³⁹and through Him ⁽^AX)everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.

⁴⁰"Therefore take heed, so that the thing spoken of⁽^AY)in the Prophets may not come upon you:
    ⁴¹'⁽^AZ)BEHOLD, YOU SCOFFERS, AND MARVEL, AND PERISH;
         FOR I AM ACCOMPLISHING A WORK IN YOUR DAYS,
         A WORK WHICH YOU WILL NEVER BELIEVE, THOUGH SOMEONE SHOULD DESCRIBE IT TO YOU.'"

Cross references:

A.   Acts 13:16 : Acts 12:17

B.   Acts 13:16 : Acts 10:2; 13:26

C.   Acts 13:17 : Ex 6:1, 6; 13:14, 16; Deut 7:6-8; Acts 7:17-ff

D.   Acts 13:17 : Ex 1:7

E.    Acts 13:17 : Ex 12:51

F.    Acts 13:18 : Num 14:34; Acts 7:36

G.   Acts 13:18 : Deut 1:31

H.   Acts 13:19 : Acts 7:45

I.     Acts 13:19 : Deut 7:1

J.     Acts 13:19 : Josh 14:1; 19:51; Ps 78:55

K.   Acts 13:19 : Judg 11:26; 1 Kin 6:1

L.    Acts 13:20 : Judg 2:16

M. Acts 13:20 : 1 Sam 3:20; Acts 3:24

N.   Acts 13:21 : 1 Sam 8:5

O. Acts 13:21 : 1 Sam 9:1; 10:1, 21

P.   Acts 13:22 : 1 Sam 15:23, 26, 28; 16:1, 13

Q. Acts 13:22 : 1 Sam 13:14; Ps 89:20; Acts 7:46

R.   Acts 13:23 : Matt 1:1

S.    Acts 13:23 : Acts 13:32

T.    Acts 13:23 : Luke 2:11; John 4:42

U.   Acts 13:24 : Mark 1:1-4; Acts 1:22; 19:4

V.   Acts 13:24 : Luke 3:3

W. Acts 13:25 : Acts 20:24

X.   Acts 13:25 : Matt 3:11; Mark 1:7; Luke 3:16; John 1:20, 27

Y.    Acts 13:26 : John 6:68; Acts 4:12; 5:20; 13:46; 28:28

Z.    Acts 13:27 : Luke 23:13

AA.   Acts 13:27 : Acts 3:17

BB.    Acts 13:27 : Luke 24:27

CC.    Acts 13:27 : Acts 13:15

DD.   Acts 13:28 : Matt 27:22, 23; Mark 15:13, 14; Luke 23:21-23; John 19:15; Acts 3:14

EE. Acts 13:29 : Acts 26:22

FF. Acts 13:29 : Luke 23:53

GG.   Acts 13:29 : Acts 5:30

HH.   Acts 13:29 : Matt 27:57-61; Mark 15:42-47; Luke 23:50-56; John 19:38-42

II.    Acts 13:30 : Acts 2:24; 13:33, 34, 37

JJ.   Acts 13:31 : Acts 1:3

KK.    Acts 13:31 : Luke 24:48

LL. Acts 13:32 : Acts 5:42; 14:15

MM.                    Acts 13:32 : Acts 13:23; 26:6; Rom 1:2; 4:13; 9:4

NN.   Acts 13:33 : Acts 2:24; 13:30, 34, 37

OO. Acts 13:33 : Ps 2:7

PP.    Acts 13:34 : Acts 2:24; 13:30, 33, 37

QQ. Acts 13:34 : Is 55:3

RR.    Acts 13:35 : Ps 16:10; Acts 2:27

SS. Acts 13:36 : Acts 2:29

TT. Acts 13:36 : Acts 13:22; 20:27

UU.   Acts 13:36 : 1 Kin 2:10; Acts 8:1

VV.    Acts 13:37 : Acts 2:24; 13:30, 33, 34

WW.                   Acts 13:38 : Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38

XX.    Acts 13:39 : Acts 10:43; Rom 3:28; 10:4

YY. Acts 13:40 : Luke 24:44; John 6:45; Acts 7:42

ZZ. Acts 13:41 : Hab 1:5

Your references are all from The Bible. You are using The Bible to prove The Bible is correct. You are just putting a wall up around yourself. I'm sorry if you don't believe in truth. I could post hundreds of examples and you would just fall back on your twisted logic. I could explain in great detail the tradition of God Men and miracles in the near East and Mediteranean, but you would just twist it. I could explain the numerous similarities between Egyptian mythos and Christ, but you would just make some excuse to try and debunk it. I have seen every argument you use numerous times by other Conservative Fundamentalists. I have seen the books that give you the answers you are supposed to use to deny the facts. You are giving rote responses that have been predetermined by approved Christian sources. You bring up Will Durant like it is some big revelation. Please.

I am not denying that Jesus Christ lived. I am not saying your religion is false. I am just telling you some facts that are real and true. Your request for eyewitness accounts is absurd in the extreme. Eyewitness accounts of what? The virgin birth of Dionysus? The ascension of Osiris? If you want to learn about Egyptian mythology, just read a book. Do you want an eyewitness account of Gilgamesh and The Great Flood where he put a bunch of animals on an arc and saved them all from drowning?

I never said The Bible was just a collection of myths. You are using classic smoke and mirrors to confuse the issue and score imaginary points. I think The Bible is very accurate in places. I believe most of the events depicted in The Bible actually occured. I just don't believe in the supernatural aspects of it.

As for eyewitness accounts of the resurrection, I am not buying it. I don't think L Ron Hubbard really found a secret temple to Xenu in North Africa, or Joseph Smith really was given golden plates by an angel. I don't think Mohammed rode a camel to heaven or Odin created the earth from the skull of Ymir. The Romans kept meticulous records of their empire. If you can show me a Roman record of any of Jesus miracles, I will concede the point. You can't. There are no contemorary records that mention him. None.

As for Paul, or as I like to call him , Saul of Tarsus, was the L Ron Hubbard of his time. He was smart enough to take all the unpleasantness out of Judaism and repackage it into something everybody could partake in. He made it accessible to the masses. You speak as if his conversion on the road to Damascus is some sort of unprecedented event. Millions of people from all walks of life have coverted to Christianity since it's inception. Many of them even more bloodthirsty than Paul was.

The whole point is, you either believe or you don't. Just denying everything like you do, makes no sense.

<< When Osiris is said to bring his believers eternal life in Egyptian Heaven, contemplating the unutterable, indescribable glory of God, we understand that as a myth.

When the sacred rites of Demeter at Eleusis are described as bringing believers happiness in their eternal life, we understand that as a myth. >>

<< In fact, when ancient writers tell us that in general ancient people believed in eternal life, with the good going to the Elysian Fields and the not so good going to Hades, we understand that as a myth.

<< When Vespatian's spittle healed a blind man, we understand that as a myth.

When Apollonius of Tyana raised a girl from death, we understand that as a myth. >>

<< When the Pythia , the priestess at the Oracle at Delphi, in Greece, prophesied, and over and over again for a thousand years, the prophecies came true, we understand that as a myth.

When Dionysus turned water into wine, we understand that as a myth. When Dionysus believers are filled with atay, the Spirit of God, we understand that as a myth. >>

<< When Romulus is described as the Son of God, born of a virgin, we understand that as a myth.

When Alexander the Great is described as the Son of God, born of a mortal woman, we understand that as a myth. >>

Mr. A. Great

<< When Augustus is described as the Son of God, born of a mortal , we understand that as a myth. woman

When Dionysus is described as the Son of God, born of a mortal woman, we understand that as a myth. >>

<< When Scipio Africanus (Scipio Africanus, for Christ's sake) is described as the Son of God, born of a mortal woman, we understand that as a myth.

So how come when Jesus is described as
the Son of God,
      born of a mortal woman,
         according to prophecy,
            turning water into wine,
            raising girls from the dead, and
<-------- healing blind men with his spittle,
                  and setting it up so His believers got eternal life in Heaven contemplating the unutterable, indescribable glory of God, and off to Hades-er, I mean Hell-for the bad folks...
how come that's not a myth?

And how come, in a culture with all those Sons of God, where miracles were science, where Heaven and Hell and God and eternal life and salvation were in the temples, in the philosophies, in the books, were dancing and howling in street festivals, how come we imagine Jesus and the stories about him developed all on their own, all by themselves, without picking up any of their stuff from the culture they sprang from, the culture full of the same sort of stuff?

JUN

Israel--

You said, you don't buy the Resurrection of Jesus Christ...

If there is no Resurrection of Jesus Christ, there is no such thing as Christianity!

Paul Says--if there was no resurrection then:

•1. Our preaching is in vain (v14)

•2. The apostles are false witnesses v(15)

•3. The Christian faith is worthless and we still stand condemned by the law; we are still in our sins (v17)

•4. Those who have died who believed in Christ birth, death and resurrection have all perished (v18)

(And--if what you say is true, then, Jesus perpetrated and got away with the biggest lie ever)

Pauls Words:

¹²Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there ^(A)is no resurrection of the dead?

¹³But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised;

¹⁴and ^(B)if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.

¹⁵Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He ^(C)raised ^[a]Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised.

¹⁶For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;

¹⁷and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; ^(D)you are still in your sins.

¹⁸Then those also who ^(E)have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

¹⁹If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are ^(F)of all men most to be pitied. (NASB)

Footnotes:

1 Corinthians 15:15 I.e. the Messiah

Cross references:

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