sneaky sam I think that our buddy uncle sam wants us to believe that he believes in family and at least claims to support families.  Why though is it that they continue this $50,000 tax penalty on married couples?

Not sure which penalty I'm referring to? (are there that many? lol).  I'm talking about the passive loss penalty.

The technical read is here:  http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=146341,00.html

In a nutshell, as a taxpayer filing unmarried and single I have the benefit of taking up to a $25,000 loss on my "passive income" (investment properties) against my active income provided I make less than $100k/yr.  This includes all the standard deductions investors take on their properties - repairs, mortgage, taxes, depreciation, etc.  My $100k active income can be reduced to $75k if I had $25k in losses on my properties thereby directly affecting my tax bill.

OK, that's easy enough to understand and makes sense.  It even seems pretty fair.  What happens if I get married though?  Penalties up the wazzoo is what happens.

First, this benefit is only applicable for those making $100k/yr or less.  It phases out and is completely eliminated at $150k.  But wait, we're two people instead of one right, so all the numbers should be doubled.  It makes sense that for a joint return the benefit would begin losing it's value at $200k/yr, similar to most every other benefit in tax code for joint returns.  But sneaky sam has never modified this particular credit to account for joint return.  A joint return has the same $100k limit as a single application.  If my wife brings home $25k/yr we only get half of the benefit or $12,500.  If she brings home $50k/yr we completely lose out on the benefit.

To make things worse, what if I come into the marriage with 4 properties that have a $25k loss, and she comes into the marriage with 4 properties with a $25k loss and our combined incomes now exceed $150k.  This is a worst case scenario because prior to marriage we both were able to take a passive loss deduction of $25k.  After marriage, neither of us can take the passive loss deduction.  That's $50k additional income we would be taxed on, or roughly $15k in taxes.  Over a marriage lasting 40 years that's $600,000 extra we've been forced to pay sneaky sam because of this "glitch" in the tax system.

Now I know nobody wants to get started on taxes, it's a sore subject no matter what way we look at it; but I keep hearing about this particular issue with property investors who have passive losses and it's a big sore subject that keeps coming up year after year.

So what do CPAs have to say about this?  I've interviewed several, and the same conclusion is that uncle sam does what uncle sam does and his purpose is to increase taxes, not reduce them.  How to avoid the $50k penalty:  a) don't have any losses, or b) don't get married

I, for one, hope some of our trusted(?) elected officials stand up to the IRS on this one someday and repair this flaw in the tax code.  Since losses on a realestate rental are somebody elses taxable gain, as it stands now, it's double-taxation.

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53 Comments on The $50,000 Marriage Tax Penalty

JUN
23
137,850 Points 10 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor

Nathan, that is an important loophole you pointed out, thank you for researching this for us.  Maybe you can contact your congress person and get them to change it with new legislation? 

P.S. I'm going to check out your property mgmt software!

11:40am • #1
Localism Sponsor

You are right about that, taxes are a sore subject.

12:03pm • #2

Unfortunately some rules are still based on the assumption that the woman stays at home and does not provide an income. At least that is the way it seems to me.

12:16pm • #3

Hi Nathan, thanks for the post.  I'm not a tax person, but aren't single people penalized in a lot of other tax code?  I don't have anything specific to point you to, other than I felt the penalty with the stimulus checks LOL!  I got $300 and my best friend married with no kids got $1200 or 1300!  Maybe uncle sam feels it all balances out???  Doubt it.

Can't wait to check out that property management software referral, too.

12:27pm • #4
3 Featured Posts

Great issue to bring up, and this is the kind of stuff our lawmakers need to take on, not other things, like taking away the rights of the people to bear arms and protecting pedophiles...

1:01pm • #6
448,620 Points 2 Featured Posts Outside Blog

This is just one of the MANY things I wish our lawmakers would at least address.  Definitely not "fair".

1:05pm • #7
232,926 Points 9 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

I would never get elected for my political point of views, but I don't believe government and marraige should ever mix.

1:23pm • #8

Interesting, how about putting each property you own as investment under seperate LLC's.  Each LLC would take whatever loss there is then subtract those losses from personal income as business loss.... next your going to ask or point out that you can only take a loss for so many years, if I remember correctly, you can take the loss as long as you can show that there is an appreciation in value over time....  check with a good tax CPA on this one.... 

1:39pm • #9
116,807 Points 4 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Hi...I'm with the government...and I'm here to help!!!  Enough said!  :o)))  Just one more thing to stay abreast of in an already confusing and overwhelming venue!  Thanks for the post!

1:43pm • #10
227,346 Points 4 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Ah yes the old marriage tax.....the joys of being married and paying uncle sam more and more.  I think lawmakers along the wasy have tried to fix this ....but clearly why would they really want to?  I doubt it will be changing anytime soon   UNLESS as Obama says

YES WE CAN...........like we are to lot of other issues.  Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Thanks for bringing it up again........maybe this time around we'll make some progress

1:48pm • #11
156,195 Points 1 Featured Post

So have you sent a letter to your Representative?  It needs to get alot of attention before anything can be changed.  Right?

 

Angelia

2:15pm • #12
1 Featured Post

Wait a second - I thought married people make more money, live longer, spend more money, and are happier so that was why we had to pay more taxes...you know to make things even for those non-committal types!  Pretty soon there is going to be no justification to do anything let alone take a risk - and yes I classify marriage as the risk!  Please note the sarcasm - I am happily married and love paying Uncle Sam more taxes because of it.

Jimmy

2:29pm • #13
3 Featured Posts

I certainly agree with a lot of comments on here about bringing this to our lawmakers so they can escalate it to the who be's in washington to make the change happen.  However, of course, I'm just one small whisper in a huge crowd.  It'll need a lot more boom than I can create on my own.

Aside from this awesome that is AR, I wonder where would be a good place to get people that this affects involved.  I only know a handful and I don't think Greg Walden or any other members in my district are going to do much without a larger voice.

Certainly open to recommendations from those with experience in this realm as it is outside of mine.

Regarding the comment on the LLCs from Kenneth.  That seems reasonable to me too; however, I believe the idea was shot down by a CPA I checked with because the LLC income, if not the primary source of income is considered passive income and thereby follows the same rules.  I'm open for any CPAs here on AR to chime in if they know different too!

Another way around this glitch in the tax code is to be a "realestate professional" which I trust many of the users of this forum are.  A realestate professional doesn't have to classify rental income/losses as passive income and thereby the penalty is bypassed entirely.  For clarity, this penalty typically affects only married couples who both work full or part time in a non-realestate field and their combined incomes exceed 100k.

3:02pm • #15
212,900 Points 4 Featured Posts Outside Blog

I vote for flat tax and then we won't have the IRS to worry about.

3:07pm • #16
3 Featured Posts

Tammy,  I enthusiastically second that!  That'd cut the need for the IRS and save the fed a bunch of $$ too!

3:12pm • #17

So before you propose you have to ask:

  1. R U making more than 150k ?

  2. How many Rental properties do you own ?

  3. This proposal is "subject to" a satisfactory review of your tax return by my CPA.

3:13pm • #18

Michael Perry...I love it! ROTF!  and literally LOL! ;)

3:21pm • #19
131,463 Points Localism Sponsor

Double-taxation is nothing new in this country. Even social security benefits are taxbale for many people. I guess that Tea party may look to be a pretty good idea!!!!

3:27pm • #20

Maybe we'll get some "change" now!! Oh wait, probably not the kind of change we're looking for here....

6:06pm • #21

Hello:

I am no CPA or tax adviser, but I believe you are making a wrong "general" statement. You have to distinguish between W2 and self employed. Your comments I beleive are accurate for W2's. Loss is limited for employees to maybe $3,000?

Any CPA on this comment list?

 

6:45pm • #22

Ok Nathan, Don't get married.

Tim Stoll
6:59pm • #23
696,576 Points 72 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

Nathan, but they get you back with the capital gains taxes for single people when they sell a home that's appreciated a bunch. 

8:49pm • #24
103,275 Points

Hi Nathan - You wrote "I, for one, hope some of our trusted(?) elected officials stand up to the IRS on this one someday and repair this flaw in the tax code."

The IRS does NOT write the tax code; however, it administers and enforces the tax code.  Changes to the tax code are made by the elected House of Representatives, Senate and President.

In Canada, the Canada Revenue Agency administers the Canadian Income Tax Act.  The elected House of Commons and appointed Senate pass the legislation which then receives Royal Assent by the Governor General who represents the Queen.

I cannot comment on your queries since I have not looked at US personal tax legislation in any detail for a number of years.

8:54pm • #25
390,877 Points 9 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Very interesting...

So what do CPAs have to say about this?  I've interviewed several, and the same conclusion is that uncle sam does what uncle sam does and his purpose is to increase taxes, not reduce them.  How to avoid the $50k penalty:  a) don't have any losses, or b) don't get married

Options are not very good.

9:22pm • #26
215,398 Points 34 Featured Posts Outside Blog

I hadn't known about this.  Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

9:25pm • #27

Great blog. I guess the goal is just to avoid having any losses. 

Jami Van Den Bogaert
9:38pm • #28
384,419 Points 3 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Very interesting post here about this tax issue.... got to love taxes..

10:28pm • #29

Seems like another instance of those doing the right thing getting punished to me.

10:30pm • #30
260,306 Points 2 Featured Posts Hit Router

Hi Nathan -- Gotta love our simplistic tax code eh?  If I ever get insomnia, I'm heading straight to the IRS website for a quick cure!

10:50pm • #31
184,712 Points 3 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor

Hi Nathan ~ I think there are plenty of examples where single people are penalized on tax day. For example, the profit that is tax free when you've owned your house for a couple of years - why should a single person be eligible for only 1/2?  We all live in a whole house, singles or couples. There are other examples but it's been a long day and my mind is fuzzy.

Liz

10:54pm • #32
589,037 Points 34 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Hit Router

Gee... another reason that the FairTax outperforms the convoluted mess we have now... and will ALWAYS have under an income taxing system rather than a consumption taxing system. 

11:21pm • #33
JUN
24

Nathan,

That rule probably does not apply to you:  "if the taxpayer spends the majority of his time in real property businesses, meeting the 1/2 personal services and 750-hour tests, rental real estate losses are no longer per se passive."  If this is so you should probably get a new accountant.

Check out: http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=146825,00.html

12:51am • #34
839,150 Points 213 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Hit Router

Everything the government touches turns into crap.

There is obviously no requirement that the policy makers (wouldn't that be Congress?) be able to perform simple mathematics.

 

5:25am • #35

Excellent post!! Thanks for sharing this info.

6:50am • #36
186,399 Points 1 Featured Post

Doesn't seem fair does it! Then what is in life!

Patricia Aulson/portsmouth nh real estate

6:54am • #37
3 Featured Posts

Hi Joseph,

Your right.  A realestate professional doesn't have to classify rental income/losses as passive income and thereby the penalty is bypassed entirely. For clarity, this penalty typically affects only married couples who both work full or part time in a non-realestate field and their combined incomes exceed 100k.

7:22am • #38
179,578 Points 2 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Many interesting comments here, going from flat tax to if the accountant should be replaced. I rely on my CPA to do the best for me as taxes to me are an evil necessity of which I pay a lot of each year.

7:25am • #39
140,783 Points 4 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Yes, there are some tax "penalties" for married couples.  However, there are also tax benefits to being married, particularly after the death of a spouse.

As with most taxes, the more income a household makes, and a married couple is technically considered to be a household, then the more taxes are paid.  The system is far from perfect, but this one example certainly doesn't make it awful.

7:58am • #40
159,696 Points 9 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Nathan - Uncle Sam still lives in the 40's.  The majority of households have two persons on career paths.  They should not be penalized for it.

8:08am • #41
166,739 Points 10 Featured Posts Outside Blog Hit Router

Nathan - It's just wrong...  The Tax Laws need to be updated to reflect "Current" conditions.  I've worked my entire life and folks that are married with NO CHILDREN are penalized the most.

8:30am • #42
3 Featured Posts

Nathan, 

Great post! That does it - I'm not getting married!

Dan

9:01am • #43

In addition to being a REALTOR I also work for H&R Block during the tax season.  What I have not seen anyone mention is that passive losses can be carried over to future years.  Those passive losses that can not be deducted in the current year can be deducted against passive gains in future years, or capital gains when the property is sold.  They are only truly lost if the rental house is sold at a loss.

10:33am • #44
3 Featured Posts

John,

What's the limit on passive loss carryovers?  It can only be done for X number of years right?

10:39am • #45
226,987 Points 1 Featured Post Outside Blog

Thats good to know.  Not married right now....I guess I should stay that way...(just kdding)

12:17pm • #46
197,719 Points 2 Featured Posts Outside Blog

I knew I didn't like being married ON TOP of the tax thing now!  Good post, congrats on your newsletter inclusion.

1:01pm • #47
188,092 Points 1 Featured Post Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Hit Router

These is an outrage and an example of another anti-family piece of legislation.  Do you really think it will ever get changed?

3:32pm • #48

Since there is discussion about taking away the mortgage deduction there is probably a slim chance that the marriage penalty will get removed.  Maybe we can mobilze NAR to help us out?  Maybe not...

Thoughtful post, interesting responses.

JEff

8:49pm • #49
JUN
26
Hit Router

Hi Nathan,  It is so unfair to impose higher taxes on married people. You just would not think it would be this way.  We need to restructure all taxes.  Taxes are much too high, and some people do not even have jobs these days; but the bottom line is that married couples should not have to pay much higher taxes. great post!

6:01pm • #50
JUN
28

Elected officials will not take this up, NAR needs to do it!

Bonnie
1:19pm • #51
JUL
06
1 Featured Post

Nathan, this is an interesting topic.

There are a lot of pieces to the tax code that are beneficial to a married couple in a way that an unmarried person does not benefit. This list is too long to put in this comment.

Reading your post, and the comments from some, the information is being perceived in a sweeping generalization of all tax code aspects for married relative to single. That is NOT the case.

The IRS doesn't make a lot of the rules in the tax code. Those are courtesy of Congress. If you want a tax code component changed, talk to your Congressional rep, not the IRS agent.

9:35pm • #52
AUG
03
1 Featured Post Outside Blog

How you deal with your real estate investments can change the picture.  If it is a passive activity then you are subject to the $25,000 loss limit along with the loss limitations and may end up creating a huge tax benefit carry forward.  The carry forward could be a good thing if you ever dispose fo the property.

As real estate professionals it is also possible that many would not be subject to the $25,000 passive acitivity loss limit.  As long as this is a full time activity and your business is real estate there is no loss limit.  Assuming you meet the hours test.

1:21am • #53

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Nathan Miller

Grants Pass, OR

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Rentec Direct

Address: PO Box 332, Grants Pass, OR, 97526

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