Broker Bryant wrote a blog, commenting on another blog, by Richanrd Zaretzky, both regarding intentional defaults on mortgages. Bryant argues that when your home is worth less than 50% of the price paid, or mortgage balance, that in fact it might be financially sound to default.

I would like to point to some of the raminfications of this, and to discuss the moral and fiancial issues involved, however briefly.

First, let's consider that the buyer, at the time of purchase, made a good faith committment to paying for the house they purchased. A contract was signed, and a mortgage lender funded the purchase, in good faith, while the buyer agreed to pay. Later, when the market collapsed, these homes lost value.

Today, lenders have been bailed out, and are still writing down bad mortgages. Shareholders in these lenders, or in companies that invested in mortgage backed securities, took and continue to take a beating on their investments, investments without which, these buyers would not have gained funding. Stock values plumeted, just as housing prices did. This caused the market for mortgage backed securities to evaporate, which in turn led to tight lending, or nonexistent lending, for certain key market demopgraphics.

From a financial persepctive, further defaults on mortgage committments will further tighten home lending, and will further deteriorate housing prices. Intentionally defaulting then results in a further decline in the housing market, and tighter lending which then further pressures the housing market, leading to further defaults, etc. An endless loop that has no upside.

Of course, from the perspective of the buyer/owner, it may make sense to default, as Bryant says, since the values will not likely come back for many years. But in terms of financial issues, this exacerbates the problems already extant in the housing markets.

Morally speaking, would you say that Bernie Madoff made a sound financial decision when he decided to defraud his investors? For Bernie, it may have appeared so, at least until his scheme unravelled. But what he did was to steal from others to increase his own wealth and financial well being. Same as these intentional mortgage defaulters?

How about the fact that this is stealing from investors who originally put up money so that these folks could buy their homes, and doing so to benefit themselves... Sound like a Bernie Madoff routine? Where is Bernie now?

Morally, and ethically, it is a bankrupt affair. Nothing less than theft.

I see no way to rationalize this so as to get to a point where I can discount the moral issues in favor of the personal financial well being of the borrower, who as I said, entered into the mortgage with the understanding that the house was worth what they were paying, and that they would then have an obligation to pay that cost. The lenders made available loans that were at best shaky, to borrowers who perhaps lied about their ability to pay. But it is not all the lenders fault, as no one forced the buyers to buy homes. They agreed to the terms of the loan and purchased the house. Now to decide it was a bad idea, and to decide that they will simply default, intentionally, and live in the house for free as long as poosible, i sa bad financial discision over the long haul, and in the big piture, and is morally bankrupt, period. We cannot discount the moral and ethical issues in favor of our small minded financial considerations.

If you can pay, pay. If not, default, declare bankruptcy, pay the piper, and make a better decision next time. But let's not remove moral issues from the question, as these would be paramount in most other decisions we make.

We are adults who buy houses, and we have learned to take responsibility for our actions, and we teach our children to do the same. How then do we see fit to evade responsibilty here?

Paul Silver, Owner

Focus Professionals, Inc.

Rhode Island Real Estate Services

 
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63 Comments on Strategic Default on Mortgage: Moral and Financial Considerations

JUL
07
116,106 Points 7 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor

Paul your posts (I've read hundreds on RT) are always so intelligent. :)

Thank you!

12:17pm • #1
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well, thank you Candice... I am sure some are better than others... but I apprecaite any one who reads them...

12:24pm • #2
Outside Blog

Paul,

I enjoyed reading your post and absolutely agree.  Having watch this process over 30 years there is a different feeling in the air with regard to walking from a house and home.  I am not talking about the individual/family who has truly fallen on hard times, job loss, health and family issues - these are shades of life that have always happened.  Unfortunately there are far many more of the unfortunates now than ever - and we, as realtors, are probably needed more than ever to help people get out of what they got into.

But.... the ones that just want to walk, just because they can - Really worry me.  I will not take their listings for short sales.  I get angry at what it leaves behind for their neighbors and community.  And I cannot fathom where they find it in their hearts to walk when they can still afford (I'm not talking barely afford - I mean really afford and they just do not like today's values) - shame on them.

10:40pm • #3
JUL
08
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Cathy: I agree... today we see many more people who somehow have come to feel that simply walking away from their financial obligations is ikay, and in no way impacts their self worth. Stick it to the tax payer, or the community, or the bank, rather than live with the bad decisions made or the poor market conditions. These obligations are real, moral, and ethical. What has bhappened to our society...?

12:07pm • #4
JUL
15

Please...typical of people in the real estate industry of course, because it will affect your bottom line.  But my bottom line is, real estate agents, banks and mortgage companies screwed me with artificially inflated prices, so I see no issue with screwing them back.  You made your commission based of my artificially inflated home price, and now you can feel the financial pain the rest of us are.  Strategic default, here I come!!!

9:49am • #5
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To the person who failed to identify themselves, what is it exactly you think the real estate agent had to do with you accepting to pay a negotiated price for the home you purchased? Do you think that the agents conspired to inflate home prices, or do you think that the market actually controlled the prices, and with so many buyers and investors competing for property, prices rose... it is, ultimately, up to the consumer to determine what the value of the home is, and what they are willing to pay, and also what loan terms work for them... just because a abnk offered a loan program does not mean that you had to accept it, and just because home prices were up at the time you purchased, does mean you have to buy... Did someone twist your arm? If so, you have a law suit that would be viable... if not, then it was your decision to buy when you did with the loan terms you accepted.

Yes, commissions are down for now, but that does not mean that the prices at the time you purchased were ARTIFICIALLY inflated... it was a bubble, as all economists agree... interest rates were at near all time lows, and generally speaking, this has the effect of increasing purchase prices... the bubble has indeed burst. And many homes are worth less now than they were a couple of years ago... mine included... but how this indicates a conspiracy to artificailly inflate housing prices, I do not know, and do not see any connection... circumstances have changed, but my obligations remain the same... I willingly accepted those responsibilities, and to shirk them for causes that are purely imaginary should impact the people who are shirking them... of course, if you lost your job, or became ill, and cannot any longer afford the house you willingly purchased, sell it... find a good qualified real estate agent, and try to get the best deal you can...

1:17pm • #6
JUL
16
103,094 Points

A few years ago, I worked with two couples who were purchasing "step-up" properties while planning to "walk away" from their current homes.  At the time, they had no problem obtaining financing for the "new" properties in spite of already owning another home.  They intentionally planned to default.  Luckily, it's virtually impossible today for someone to pull this off.

9:45am • #7
JUL
30

Comment from the Global Economic Analysis blog about sums it for me:

"

As both a lawyer and real estate broker, I always get a kick out of some people arguing that other people should commit financial hari-kari by continuing to pay a mortgage that, even if they could pay it, would swallow all their money, and leave them totally without any savings during their old age.

Mortgages are not ethical documents, they are legal contracts. The typical residential mortgage for an owner-occupied home gives the borrower two options: pay on time and in full, and keep paper title to the house, and full entitlements to any appreciation upon its later sale after the mortgage is satisfied; or, stop making payments, and hand the keys back to the lender.

Morality and ethics don't even enter the equation. Either option is perfectly legal for the borrower, and the only criteria should be business-based. All the ethics you need are contained within the four corners of the pages of the mortgage contract.

 

"

Anonymous
9:28pm • #8

My apologies, I forgot to get the rest of the comment in:

"

Remember, it was lenders who totally abandoned traditional prudent underwriting standards. Moreover, they were fully aware of the contracts they signed and that borrowers could indeed walk away. So whose fault is it, when borrowers do walk away?

For borrowers putting 0% down at the peak, there are very few cases where it makes sense for the borrower to continue to pay.

Indeed, the ethical thing to do, is for each borrower who is underwater to look without blinders at their family's financial situation, not just now, but over the long term.

If paying off a mortgage for $750,000 on a house now worth $450,000 at best, would result in no money left over for the kids' education or the parents retirement income and healthcare needs, then the moral thing to do is bite the bullet now, take the hit to one's credit record, find housing that can be had for no more than 30% of the family's income (which could very well be the foreclosed house, rented to them affordably, and then sold off by the FDIC to an investor at a reasonable capitalization rate), and get frugal everywhere else in the household budget, so that they can build some savings for the time in their lives when regular work might not be possible.

"

 

I'm not very eloquent so consider this my reply!

Anonymous
9:31pm • #9
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To me, Anonymous, the arguement that because the house is worth less now somehow results in the owners ending up with less money at retirement makes no sense. The cost of the house when they bought it seemed affordable enough at the time. The fact that it depreciated since then only impacts the owner if they sell it. Of course, foreclosure affects the credit of the people involved, and forces them to find other housing, when in fact they were seeminly able to afford the house at the price they did when they bought it. Assuming they did not lose their jobs, etc., the house should remain relatively affordable. To "strategically foreclose" has the effect of crippling the housing market, and damaging the value of other homes in the area. By the comments made above that ethics and morals do not come into it, you seem to think that doing this sort of thing, namely harming others and society in general, has no ethical implications. That is simply nonsense, at least in every definition of the word that I know.

If you know some other definition, let me know.

11:23pm • #10
AUG
28

Here is an article on buying and bailing in las vegas http://foreclosurenv.wordpress.com/2009/06/29/strategic-default-when-homeowners-run-away-from-their-house/

Foreclosurenv
4:18am • #11
SEP
15

Sorry, but the anonymous poster is referencing a post from Mish's global economics, which is one of the most popular econ blogs out there.  And he is one hundred percent right. 

A mortgage is a legal contract, nothing more, the loan is secured by real property.  If the borrower fails to pay, as stipulated in the contract, the property is then forfeited to the lender.  There is no morality to it.  The lender agrees to the same terms knowing that if the borrower does not pay, they can seize the home.  The lender is also making a determination of the value of the home during underwriting, because they know, or should know, that if the borrower fails to pay, they will have to take the home and sell to recoup losses.  So they are aware of the risks as well.  Its not 'stealing.'  What would be stealing would be to not pay and refuse to relinquish the property as they are bound to do by the mortgage agreement.  If the borrower is willingly giving back the property as outlined they must do in the event of failure to pay, how is that stealing?

And the Bernie Madoff comparison.  Sorry, but what are you talking about.  His actions are strictly prohibited by the laws of this country.  Walking away from your mortgage and turning in the keys is simply abiding by the terms of the contract.  Sorry, but you being a re agent makes your whole rant look like a propaganda from a shill.

Dylan
4:09pm • #12
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Dylan: I am an attorney, and understand contract law... never the less, I do feel that simply bagging the mortgage because you are underwater in the house is not good business, and is morally bankrupt... I would think you would realize that this sort of activity results in lenders making it harder to gain financing fgor othe rbuyers in this market. That is undermining the entire real estate market at this time. And of course you realize that there is no way for the homeowner to "refuse" to give back the house to the lender... they would be evicted forcibly... it is simply acting in bad faith to "strategically default" -- especially since the payments were acceptible at the time of purchase, and unless the owner has become unemployed, and cant afford those same payments, or if the payments rise, and so they cant afford them, then that is at least acting in good faith.


You can argue that there is no morality to it, but I disagree.

By the way, I am not a real estate agent, but I do own 4 agencies...

 

 

4:22pm • #13
SEP
19

i'm not a homeowner and i'm not defaulting.  I however, agree that the mortgage is a business document and has no moral or ethical wording in it.  Banks and investors are mostly concerned with the bottom line and making money off the people that do business with them.  They are less concerned about the personal circumstances of the buyers.

I think people buy houses because it makes good financial sense for their future, not so that they will be enslaved to that home for decades.

These people need a fresh start if it puts their family in a poor position for the future.

db
5:35pm • #14
SEP
20

Here is another study done this time by Experian on Strategically Defaulting  http://foreclosurenv.wordpress.com/2009/09/18/strategic-default-part-2-running-away-from-your-home/

Jim
1:26am • #15

I can't help but laugh at these idiots talking about the morality of a strategic default.  Under BASIC principles of contract law, we do not impose punitive damages for contract breach.  Why?  Because the law recognizes that sometimes it's more efficient to simply breach and pay the penalty.  That is exactly what is happening here -- folks are comparing the amount they'd have to pay long term to hang on to this property with the harm they'll face (damaged credit, losing their home, losing all the money they've put into the house) if they just stop paying.  Intelligent people are seeing that it makes much more sense to simply stop paying a mortgage on a home, when you'll never see that money again, and instead rent a place for a few years (at a much cheaper price) until the market and the person's credit improves.  And, guess what, the very terms of the agreement allow for the possibility that you might stop paying and lay out the appropriate penalty should you do so.

There is absolutely no morality to this -- although those in the real estate business certainly love saying that there is because those folks who are smart enough to do a strategic default scare the hell of out them.

Michael
11:40am • #16
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Michael: we are not talking about people who cannot afford to keep their homes... these people are defaulting as a part of any strategy, rather, they are defaulting outr of need. A very different scenario would be investors who purchased properties at the peak of the market, and now decide to default because htey made a bad decision, the which has a grand impact on financial marekts, and the ability of other to borrow on property or to purchase.

If you cant pay, you are not strategically defaulting... if you elect not to pay even though you can, and rents in your property cover the expense (not these days, for many, since they bought on speculation that the property value would increase, and they would make their money there) then this default is strategic, yes?

If that is so, it is to my mind damaging to the rest of the property owners in this country, an to would be property owners who because of this sort of thing no longer can qualify for loans to purchase.

Very different concepts.

11:47am • #17
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Jim great article, thanks for the link... perhaps some who view this as an Idiot's concern might learn something from it...

 

Michael, as an attorney, we do sometimes see punitive damages on contract breeches, depending on the damage done to the parties, and the nature of the contract, jurisdiction, etc.

 

But that is irrelevant to this discussion...

 

 

11:53am • #18
SEP
21

I agree with your conclusions -- both moral and financial.  But here's a problem:  I have never missed a payment on my 5 years ARM -- which for those 5 years was interest only.  But in six months the rate will be adjusted, and I will need to pay principle.  I cannot afford it.  I was out of work for over three years through no fault of my own and incurred other debt.  I don't want to default or be foreclosed, but I have no money to make the payments, and no equity to put towards a new house, I will, if I sell, lose money and I have no money to pay the difference, and no savings for a down payment.  I'm trapped.  What I make per month right now barely keeps me even.  It seems to me that this whole system makes it impossible.  You have to have a good credit rating to get a good interest rate, but you cannot repair your credit in a moral way without getting a good interest rate. Sometimes I just think banks and credit card companies get exactly what they deserve.  I want to make good on all my debts, but the system makes it impossible.

David
12:15pm • #19
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David: sounds like you have several options, depending on your situation and lender. ARMs have been a weapon of mass destruction for many in the past few years. These loans are also the most likely to be renegotiated in your favor, assuming you meet the criteria. So option 1 is to get the loan renegotiated to more favorable terms for you... many have done so, and are able to retain their homes. Option two is to sell the home as a short sale, which would result in the lenders approving a sale for less than you owe on the house, saving your credit a bit, and allowing you to sell without having to pay any difference... some short sale lenders forgive the difference entirely, orhers allow it to be carried forward as a debt... be careful, as if it is forgiven, it might be considered taxable income... some of this has changed over recent months, but these two options remain the best choices.

If you default, you lose. You lose the house, you lose your credit standing, and you lose any equity that might later acrue to the property.

It amazes me that otherwise intelligent people, commenting above, Annonymously, argue that because the value of the home has declined, this somehow makes the house unaffordable, but of course, if the mortgage is a fixed rate mortgage, the payments do not change, and no money that was not originally considered to go toward the house is going there... the arguement makes no sense, either intrinsically, or extrinsically... and takes rationaization to the limit.

But for you, with an ARM, the situation is different... first of all, I would argue that if you could not afford the rate that the mortgage would move to, you should not have accepted loan terms like that. User error there. Never the less, you are a poster child for renegotiation of the loan... have you tried that?

If not, do so...especially if you are not behind in your payments.

Also, have you looked at a short sale of the house? this is your next best option. If you have not looked into this, you should do so soon. It is your second best option.

Default is the last choice, if you ask me, as that results in the hardest pain for YOU... but as for this post, I would not call that a Strategic Default, but simply a foreclosure do to an inability to pay.

12:44pm • #20
SEP
22

Interesting discussion.  I am inclined to support the position that in some cases what has happened is akin to a natural disaster.  So a corollary question would be if one purchased a home in a non-flood zone, put 20% down and got a standard mortgage, and was not required to have flood insurance, then a massive flood came and the house is gone, should the owner be obligated to continue to pay the mortgage to completion even though he has no housing and there is no collateral left. 

Let me give you an interesting case.  In 2006 a friend bought a home in Arizona, new construction, 4000sf with basement and all upgrades, granite counters, etc.  He paid $417K and put down 20% cash.  I note this was about $100/sf, which was not considered excessive based on construction costs.  Currently most of the subdivision is bank owned.  Most of the homes were bought by speculators, out of state, who eventually defaulted.  There are many similar homes available for purchase now from banks for $150K-$170K. 

OK, he owes $320K on his 1st mortgage.  After his purchase, the house was appraised at $550K and he took out a HELOC with a credit limit of $60K just in case he needed it.  Later, when he saw what was happening he took the $60K out and placed it in bank accounts in another bank just for safety, realizing he would have to pay a slightly higher rate on the loan than he was earning on the bank accounts, but willing to pay that to have the liquidity.

So he is strategically defaulting.  5 months ago he ceased paying the 1st mortgage and tried to get the bank to modify his loan.  He asked for a change from a 5 year ARM to a 10 year interest only fixed.  Realizing he will never have equity now, and will die within 10 years, his only objective would be to "rent" the home from the bank until his death, after which they would foreclose and take the home and realize their loss.  He would pay much more in payments on the 10 year loan than equivalent rent for the same home, but would be willing to do so to stay in the home. 

He is not poor.  He has retirement assets sufficient to pay the mortgage in full if he chose, and could own the home free and clear.  By doing so, he would take the inheritance he hopes to leave his children and give it to the bank.  He CHOOSES to not do this.

OK, so now he has been approached by a few realtors who work the short sale system and is going to list the home as a short sale at a market price.  He will gift $150K to a relative, who will purchase the home in the short sale for cash and allow him to live there for his remaining years.  He will effectively reset the cost of his home to market price by doing this. 

If this plan fails, such as the bank refusing to approve the short sale, he will allow it to foreclose and have his son bid cash for it on the courthouse steps at the foreclosure.  If that fails, he will lose the home and move to a rental up the street.  His son could then purchase the home REO from the bank.

Worst case if all this fails, he will buy a house next door for a market price and have to move a short distance. 

This may sound like an extreme case, but I assure you it is happening every day in markets like Las Vegas, Phoenix, etc where declines of 80% off of peak value have been seen in extreme cases.  I don't care how much money you put down, even 50%, at the purchase, your home is upside down and will probably be so for decades if you keep it. 

I know of cases where people bought 5 or 6 homes as investments, and are walking away from all of them, defaulting on their credit cards and all other debts, and purchasing a one way ticket home to China to try to remake a new life there.  They fly first class on the way home, with that fare charged to the credit card.

 

Len
12:21pm • #21
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Of course, Len, there is no guaranty that the son would be able to purchase the house, as others would have the opportunity to make offers of purchase as well, and if the lender caught on to this scheme, they might prosecute for fraud... but that being said, I understand that the guy is underwater, and he took out a HELOC in addition to the primary... all sounds like a bad choice on the borrowers part... and yes, lenders did go haywire for a while there...

but as you point out, so many of the properties are in default or bank owned, that this sort of thing definitely impacts the loan market and availability for new buyers to gain access to funding...

In his case, it would constitute a strategic default... and while I am not supporting such actions, I do not say that I find them to make no sense... I just think the implications are large in the general lending environment, and this sort of thing handicaps others who cannot then buy homes...

Of course, running up credit card debt and mortgage debt that you intend to abandon outright, knowing the terms of the contract, to me is unethical conduct... if you cant pay, that is one thing, if you can, and you intentionally run up debt knowing that you plan to abandon that debt, this is something altogether differnt in my view.

1:01pm • #22
SEP
23

Hum, interesting discussion. The moral argument really has me wondering why it would be immoral for me to default on our (2) loans when the banks were willing to give us almost any amount of $$ and the real estate agents were ensuring us that the value of our house would only go up and we would be able to refinance in 2 years or sell at a profit and move to a bigger house. Not exactly. Now our house in CA is worth about $300,00 less than the sale price and we are almost at our 5 year interest only loan expiration. Beginning early 2010, our loan rate floats and interest rates are only going to increase when inflation kicks in. Do we have a "moral obligation" to stay and pay increased rates on an interest only loan, perhaps for the next 20 to 30 years with little chance to build any equity in our house? Really? We don't even want out from the loan, all we would like is for the bank to agree to refinance us at a decent rate for 30 years and we will continue to pay. However, since we are so far under water, the banks won't even speak to us. We've tried all of them. So we should literally pay for this mistake that we've made with our entire life savings? Really? It's our responsibility to hold up the real estate market because we can scrap together the interest only payments while the banks got away with being totally irresponsible and the real estate agents were all encouraging the insanity? Well now it's looking like we were the only people insane and we are left holding the debt, perhaps for the rest of our lives, while the banks just continue to tell us that we are too far under water to qualify for a decent refi. Doesn't seem right to me....

katie
11:51pm • #23
SEP
25

Wow, this blog is the #3 hit on google when you type in "strategic default."

To argue the point that the underwater mortgage is "affordable." It is, but if you can substitute out of a $3000 mortgage and rent the identical home for $1500, you've just pocketed $1500/mo. To some people, that is worth 7 years of trashed credit. Depending how underwater you are, it may take the better part of a decade or more to "break even" on your home. The reality is, for some borrowers, strategically walking away, living rent free for a year, renting a cheaper unit for 7-10 years while their credit recuperates, and then buying at rental parity yields the best financial outcome....even when you account for the tax hit, higher car/insurance rates/etc.

I think the argument is just one of those things that can never sway anyone. Either you believe it to be morally bankrupt, or you consider a strategic walk away to be simply exercising the "power of sale" clause in your note (for those in Trustee/non-judicial states) and strictly business.

It doesn't help the former when you see giant commercial hotel properties simply reverting back to their lenders as if it were an everyday occurance. The average borrower underwater goes, "Well, if the W or the St. Regis Monarch can go through a foreclosure as a strictly business decision....why am I not afforded the same opportunity/courtesy?"

Richard
1:20am • #24

Thank you Katie, that's exactly my point.  The idiots on here would say "yes, you bought home, so now you have a moral obligation to deplete your entire savings and subject your family to a reduced standard of living simply to make those promised payments."

Of course, two things to keep in mind:

1) When you signed the mortgage, it was already contemplated by the parties that you may not pay.  Hence, the fact that the mortgage agreement provides a remedy:  foreclosure.  So you have already bargained for the right to walk away, so long as you are willing to accept the penalty.

2) Most of the folks who are crowing about this moral obligations are those who are in some way affiliated with the mortgage/real estate industry.  They realize that if enough folks "wake up" and realize how stupid it is in this economy to keep pouring money into their homes and then decide to walk, then they (those affiliated with the mortgage/real estate industry) interest will be hurt.

Thus I see most of this ridiculous "moral obligation" rhetoric as bullying tactics coming from real estate folks who are scared to death of what it means.

Folks, here's the honest truth, if you are upside down in your home, seriously, stop paying and go rent a home (likely for at least half of your mortgage payment).  Your credit will take a hit, but over time, you'll save hundreds of thousands of dollars.  Those who stay in their homes make consider themselves moral -- I just see them as being, at best, naive and, at worst, really stupid.

Michael
9:12am • #25

As a follow up to my long post a few days ago, my friend in AZ who paid $417K, and owes $320K on a 1st mortgage on a house worth $150K at most which could be rented for $1100/mo has had a new development.  The banks would not talk loan mod in any way because he was so much under water and because he has the ability to pay or even pay off completely his mortgage.

By stopping payments for 6 months, he got their attention.  They recorded notice of foreclosure and the sale date was set for 12/2009.  He listed the house as a short sale subject to lender approval for $150K, knowing there was a good chance the bank would not accept the short sale anyway.  Clearly the best thing for him is to walk away and buy or rent something else at a market price less than half what he owes.

The new development is the bank offered a loan mod.  40 year fixed mortgage at 3.375% for the balance of the loan.  He did not get a principal reduction, but he got a monthly payment reduction to put it in line with the cost of renting a similar house.  He will never have equity.  He will die long before the 40 year term of the mod loan is up.  But he gets to stay in the house as an owner in name only.  Really he's a renter.  He can't ever build equity, forget it, he's too underwater. 

What the bank gets out of this is to keep a bad loan which will eventually have a large write off on their books at full value.  Plus they can up their statistics for cooperating and doing loan mods.  The loan is bad, no question.  It will never be repaid, and the bank will take a write off on it.  But for the time being they can fool themselves and call it a performing loan...

Len
12:31pm • #26
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I dont understand why there are arguements that say the guy will NEVER have equity in his home again... when he bought the place, the house was sold at market price, yes? In a short few years or months, the value depreciated back down, and even below his purchase price. I woudl assume that after he bought the place, the property apprecaited somewhat, before going down, yes?

This would show that price fluctuations vary radically over time, and that at some point in recent history the house was worth what he paid for it... there is nothing, I repeat NOTHING that woudl indicate that the house will not also appreciate radically in an up beat market... so to say that he will never see equity again, even over the short term, never mind the long term, is an unfounded arguement. It is simply not possible to say what the house will be worth in teh future.

Let me ask the ethical question this way: if the house appreciated unduly, over a short period, why did he not then re-sign the debt to allow the bank to take part of the profit, since he feels it is okay to allow them to take the loss?


I understand that this sort of thing is not in the contract, but then, many aspects of ethics and morality are not in contracts. We want to allow the bank to lose when the value goes down, but we do not want them to participate when it goes up...

Incidentally, when the bank writes down bad debts, it is not a write off, in the sense that most of us would think of writing off expenses against taxable income... there is a real loss there, and the bank is forced to eat it. Again, I understand that this is the contract that both lender and buyer entered into and agreed upon, but that does not make it ethical, any more than an insurance company excluding a claim that would ordinarily be covered because someone forgot to report a case of acne 10 yrs earlier... acne that was completely unrelated to the disease... I am sure you are all aware of the issue I am pointing to...

12:55pm • #27

I have no problems with the morality of a strategic default for one reason and one reason only.

I would bet that most of the people who take the strategic default option are part of the small percentage of the U.S Population that actually pays taxes. That means that, most likley, they are the ones who provided the bailout money to the banks.  To me, all they are doing is getting a piece of their hard earned money back.

 

 

1:56pm • #28
SEP
26

The individual in question has a life expectancy of 10 years at most, he is both elderly and has multiple illnesses.  No one knows, but my gut says during his lifetime he will NEVER have equity, based on the extreme excess of debt over current value. 

The entire bubble in the area was based on a couple of things which I don't see coming back for decades.  #1, lenders lining up to lend unlimited amounts of money to anyone regardless of verifiable income, as long as it was secured by real estate which they perceived could never decline in value.  I don't see this coming back for at least a generation, from either private or semi-public lending sources.  People have learned, and government is wary, at least for a long time. 

#2, speculators lining up weekly, often camping overnight at sales offices, taking numbers to enter a lottery, to get a chance to buy any house a builder would release for sale, at any price, in marginal areas they have no intention to ever live in.  They have been burned badly, many are bankrupt and trying to start their lives over.  I don't see them coming back for a long time.

You only have to look at Japan to see our future.  Their RE bubble popped in the 1980's and 25 years later they are still in mild deflation.  Low interest rates, high unemployment, slow or no economic growth, malaise.  We all have our predictions.  That's mine.  Tokyo residential RE declined 90% peak to trough and has never recovered in 25 years.  And that came after a credit frenzy like ours, although theirs was more commercial focused.

Len
12:08am • #29

PS, regarding the insanity, I recently met a bouncer working in a bar who purchased a $1MM house with $100K down and got a $900K mortgage.  His verifiable W-2 income is $8 per hour.  Of course he gets tips.  How did he get the loan?  Stated income.  What income?  He declared himself to be a self-employed RE investor with a pro forma income of $300K per year.  That was the income he thought he would like to make, so he wrote it down as fact and got the loan in 2006, in Las Vegas. 

He purchased 5 homes total.  All are in foreclosure.  The $1MM home is estimated by BPO to be worth $350K in today's market.  The debt is close to $900K still.  See equity in the future?

He's walking away from it all, stripping the houses before abandoning them and selling anything he can harvest from them.  This is the reality today.

Len
12:13am • #30

I notice that our "rainmaker" (a pretty gross moniker btw) did not respond to Katie's posting (or my follow-up) -- how very telling!  Of course, he doesn't want folks to start doing strategic defaults as then that might threaten his livelihood -- to me, THAT'S immoral (i.e., preaching to others about morality to simply preserve your own bottom line).

Michael
11:19pm • #31
SEP
27
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Michael: I did not respond because I was away... note: I am not a mortgagte professional, and make my money whether houses foreclose or not...

 

That said, the length of your response does not mean it is worth a response from me... I see the case that this fellow lied on his mortgage app, claiming to make far more than he did, which constitutes mortgage fraud. But yes, the lender had a product (no doc loan) that allowed this to happen... never the less, people buying houses they could not afford was dumb... on their part... and BAD choices on the part of borrowers, -- yes borrowers, after all many things are sold that I wont buy, and I am sure the same is true for most of us -- do not make it correct to allow this sort of foreclosure just because we can...

 

Michael... if you cant keep your posts civil, they will be deleted. You have no right to attack me personally, or the profession of many others, just to make your point... if you cant make it otherwise, dont make it, and certainly dont make it here...

9:44am • #32

Still didn't respond to Katie's post.  And feel free to delete anything I say -- If my scrutiny of your position makes you uncomfortable and unable to craft thoughtful defenses, then feel free to delete.  However, perhaps you should limit comments to your friends, that way you only get the glowing praise you so clearly crave.

Michael
11:19am • #33
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My response to Kate is simple: one should not have purchased a house one could not afford. Just because a stupid realtor says that prices will continue o appreciate does not mean you shoudl listen to them... you make your own choices. Also, interest only loans should be banned if you ask me... a bad idea for anyone, and again, Kate should not have opted into such a loan program... as I said above, just because there is a sales person selling me rocks does not mean I should buy them. I answered this previously.


Michael: Do not worry... I answer my posts and comments, and desire discussion, just not biased one sided thoughtless and ignorant comments made that are personal attacks. Future posts with such a tone will be deleted.

If I do not continue to respond to your nonsense, it has nothing to do wiith my willingness to defend my position... it has to do with your attitude, which is offensive, obtructinist, and just plain uninformed.

Thanks.

1:19pm • #34
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Michael:

1)I am not obligated in any way to respond to posted comments. I do so when they have something to add to the discussion. At this point yours do not.

2) I am not inclined to respond to posts on my blog where people attack me, and again, have no obligation to do so, nor an obligation to allow those posts to persist.

3) Sounds to me like you must be "strategically Defaulting" perhaps on more than one mortgage, and while you say that I and mortgage and real estate professionals have an ax to grind, I say you must as well, given your intransigence on the issue, and your obvious emotional resentment of it. Perhaps you too took out loans you cannot afford, and relied on your market crystal ball to tell you the property would appreciate... bad idea...

4) Your obvious lack of professionalism in this regard inclines me to ignore your posts at best, and certainly to delete them on my own blog if they become too obtuse and abnoxious. Go write your own post if you care to exhibit yoru ideas to the world... I did, and allowed comments even from you, who called me an idiot... your attitude reflects more on you than on me, my friend... keep it up... it will get you far...

2:00pm • #35
OCT
07

There is no reason why NOT to walk away.

 

There is NO moral dilemma here.  The property is the colateral.  It's not like walking away from a non-securitized loan.

Alice Bowie
9:18pm • #36
OCT
08
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collateral or not, it gets down to personal integrity I suppose...

10:37am • #37
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I see no difference between walking away from a collateralized loan vs a non-collateralized loan... the only difference is that the lender was wise enough to at least require the collateral... but other than that, walking away is walking away... same old same old...

10:40am • #38
OCT
09

Concerning the issue of moratlity in strategic defaults, allow me to inject something I have yet to see discussed.  I have a home which I built and financed 7 years ago.  It is now a second home which has been on the market for the last three years - a market which has declined considerably putting me (as many, many others) underwater in my loan which was sold at the time to the Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corp. (Freddie Mac).  One would suggest that I have an ethical obligation to honor the terms of that mortgage by continuing to make payments to an institution, who I opin as being one of the largest culprits in the destablization and decline of market values in this area.  They continue to dump their REOs for pennies (and I mean pennies) on the dollar which has elimimated any chance I have at selling my home, unless I sold it for half of what is owed.  If I was bailed out by taxpayers to the tune of billions (like Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae), I guess I could afford to do that. I have held on for the last two years trying to be "ethical" and "responsible" and make my payments even though my equity was gone and replaced with negative equity and even though my attempts to sell at a reasonable value (albeit a loss which I acknowlege would require bringing money to the table) has been an exercise in futility due, in large part, to what I perceive to be the actions of my mortgagee.  It is because of the fact that this is a collateralized loan that I consider the continuation of my present course to be financially stupid and ill-advised.  If there is some moral high ground here, I dont believe the banks, or more specifically, Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae can make a claim to it.  They got their bailout from you and me and all the other taxpayers out there.  What have they done in return? Increased fees, added fees, destabilized the market, and restricted credit.  Maybe it's time I and others bail ourselves out from them...Just a thought.

John
7:14pm • #39
OCT
26

In case this discussion is still continuing, I would like to add my two cents.

First, I do see a case where strategic default can be used by someone who is able to, albeit just barely, make their mortgages. In some cases, a home owner can make their payments, but are stretched so thin that there is no margin of error. Here is my story.

I am in my mid-20s. A year ago, a bought a home at a time when I thought prices were good and couldn't possibly go any lower, based on the deal I got on my home. I was engaged, planning a wedding, and planning to have children, so a bigger house than I would need for myself would be required. Everything was great, because I had two incomes in my household and there was no problem paying all the bills.

As you might guess, that relationship ended, and now I am stuck in the house, which I put completely in my name because my girlfriend at the time didn't have the greatest credit, and having her on the loan would seriously deter "our" chances to qualify for the house. I purchased the home at a 6% interest rate, with a 2-1 buy-down from the builder, but, in the situation that I was in, knew I could comfortably afford the payment, with two incomes in the house. Not long after, prices continued to fall.

Since the breakup, I've exhausted nearly all of my savings, simply trying to keep up. I work in the service industry, and make my living off of tips. In these economic times, it is not always easy. Even though 100% of my tips are tracked and reported to the government by my employer for tax purposes, there still can be large swings in income. This makes it very difficult.

The first stage of my buydown is now over, and the payment has gone up, similar to an ARM loan. In addition, the county has assesed the property at nearly double what the place is actually worth (and tens of thousands more than my mortgage is actually for), and from what I understand, this cannot be disputed, and I am forced to pay property taxes on that amount as part of my mortgage payment.

Further, I have incurred some credit card debt from larger expenses that there simply wasn't any extra cash laying around for. I am current on everything, though. I have never missed a payment to a creditor, so basically, my credit right now is spotless.

In this case, strategic default can accomplish the following:

By defaulting on my loan, I will be able to take the excess cash and completely pay off all of my credit cards, and would even be willing to simply hand over the keys to the lender immediately, and not "live fore free for as long as possible" as some have said. I understand that "deed in lieu of foreclosure" may be an option, but have yet to speak with my lender about that.

As a long term financial decision, defaulting on this property seems to be the best option for me. The stress that these payments are causing me have caused me to lose sleep and I am constantly worrying about where the next payment is going to come from. This is going to make my physically sick at some point.

Moving into an apartment will dramatically reduce my monthly expenses and eliminate a great deal of stress from my life, but more than that, will give me a chance to start over. I'm not denying that I may have made a poor decision buying at the time that I did, but given my situation, I felt it was right. I was blinded by outside factors, and acted accordingly.

The mortgage contract states that if I do not make payments, the bank gets the house. As far as I'm concerned, they can have it. I will give them the keys today if they will take them. I simply want to start over.

Your thoughts?

JR
4:36am • #40

JR, it would be stupid of you to try to keep your house.  The strategic default makes complete sense in your situation. Actually, with the economy the way it is, I think a stategic default makes sense for most folks.  You're credit will take a hit (which really only means you won't be able to buy things on credit for awhile), but you'll save thousands of dollars just paying reasonable rent over high mortgate paymens on a home that likely will not regain it's value for 10+ years.

So, given your circumstances, you'd be shooting yourself in the foot to try and hang on to your home.

Michael
8:34am • #41

JR, here's a great article to read:  http://www.thebigmoney.com/articles/money-trail/2009/10/08/go-ahead-walk-away

Michael
8:37am • #42
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Why not? Certainly makes sense, in your case, to abandon the obligation and move on.

I wish I could strategically escape from all the bad decisions I make too... especially if I can do it with impunity and little cost to myself... In this case the terms of the loan were onerous, even if they did not seem to be at tha time, and that is really the issue...

8:43am • #43

I live in Florida and have heard as high as 25% of all mortgages are in default.  There is this so-called shadow inventory that the banks have already forclosed on however, have not taken back.  I guess it is because they have so many properties on the books already.  What happens when it gets to 40-50%?

Every RE professional on the planet said if your timeline is longer than 5 years, you are better off owning and not renting.  I bought my house in 2005 for 280K.  I put 10% down and we are almost at 2010 and it is worth 140-150K.  Ok, maybe I would accept a 5-10% decline in the value (sure sometimes the traditional thinking is a little out of line)  but I do not accept a 50% decline in the value.  The street I live on now is a wreck with many empty homes and brown lawns. 

I have two options:

Ruin my family's financial future by continuing to pay my mortgage

or walk away and start over

?

 

 

Paul
9:02pm • #44

I applaud strategic default and argue that you have a moral obligation to default if it's in your best interest.  That is plain and simple the free market system.

We're talking about contracts here, no one is being killed when a buyer defaults.  Businesses default all the time, the contract has built in clauses to handle default, the mortgage company gets their colateral... I don't see this moral delema..

NOW, when you think about if everyone who is now so far under water they'll not see equity for a decade were to default it would do several things:

(a) free up money for use in other areas of the econmy - so default will HELP the economy (and don't give me the loan availability line, Citibank just raised rates on premium payers to 29.9% "just because" so they don't want to lend anyway... they're insolvant and their about to have it put on the books, so there won't be loans for a long time no matter what)

(b) It will speed up the reset of home values.  In general, they need to drop dramatically because the US is in the process of a financial reset in respnse to globalization... there isn't any "bounce" ahead... all things in the US need to fall in price to match the new lower wage structures that are emerging.

(c) It will provide banks with feedback regarding their refusal to work with borrowers

(d) It will provide "investors" an education, perhaps in the future they'll make sounder investment decisions

I'm sorry, but I'd encourage anyone underwater to default.  It makes no sense to put your family through a decade of entrapment because you can't possible relocate for work or what ever reason.  It makes no sense to lug a $100k to a sales table to sell a house underwater.  Business is business, banks knew all about foreclosure when they signed on the dotted line. None of the investors were given any guarantees when they plunked down their money.. that's why its called an investment and not a FDIC insured deposit.

 

In ohio
10:52pm • #45
OCT
27

Excellent points "In Ohio"!

Erin
9:11am • #46
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Curious how a depreciated asset like your home will ruin your credit? I assume when you purchased the house you thought that your payments were affordable? Have the payment amounts changed since the purchase?

I dont see how being underwater if the payments are still affordable constitutes good reason to default... perhaps it is me...

Also, as for the economy, not sure that this process frees up any money... it has not so far... and as far as home values, most are already reset to proper values now... further decline is not in the interest of those that continue to pay their mortgages... and it really does not help those who default... I see no benefit, unless you simply made a bad choice when you bought the house and took on too much house at the time, and could only barely afford the payments then, and have lost income since.

2:38pm • #47

I take exception to Rainmakers' assertation that most home values are already reset to "proper  values".  Is a "proper value" one that has been set by the practice of dumping properties for pennies on the dollar by banking institutions and the taxpayer subsidized Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac corporations, and how culpable are realtors in the destablization of property values cause by this practice.  "Proper Value"?  Have realtors prostituted themselves to these institutions by facilitating these transactions while at the same time proclaiming to represent the best interest of their other listings? This isn't just a matter of a bubble correction.  This is a dump at any cost destablization of the market by the same institutions we just bailed out to the tune of billions.

The bottom line is this:  A person has to represent their own best interest and not subjugate it to a bank, a realtor, or the government - which has proven time and time again throughout this crisis that your best interest does not matter. 

John
7:39pm • #48
OCT
29

Just to clarify (my name), it is Michael but I'm not the same Michael that has been posting.

Rainmaker - The other Michael posted this article and I tend to agree with it.  I certainly don't feel he is justifed in his rudeness, though.

http://www.thebigmoney.com/articles/money-trail/2009/10/08/go-ahead-walk-away?page=0,0

I disagree with you Madhoff comparison, for example.  The lender made an underwriting decision at the time that allowed them to (theoretically) recoup their losses after a default.  Madhoff's clients have no recourse.  Now, it seems, lenders want to take it back. 

(A Different) Michael
2:07am • #49
OCT
30

This is a very difficult time for those of us who bought at the peak of the market and did so with the ability to pay our payments. I moved, like thousands of others, from an excessively high cost of living area, Southern California, which drove countless numbers out do to high tax rates, traffic, and rental payments to an area such as Las Vegas with a significantly lower cost of living. 

Should we be made to suffer do to the speculation and lack of ethics of thousands of homebuyers who collapsed the market? I had several neighbors who bought homes with little or no money down and with poor to barely moderate credit. As the old poker saying goes, "If you have no money in the middle than you have nothing to lose." Since many had bad credit than damaging it further means nothing. Also, many, as even an article in the local Review Journal stated, Were immigrants with little or no credit history and they may chose to go to their country of orgin where their bad credit and obligations will not follow them. If a real estate market, such as Vegas, which has lost over 50% of its boom home equity takes 7-10 years to recover to its boom height than what do homeowners do if they need to move out of the area do to work, a family emergency, or if they lose their job or are divorced. What is their option?

I got into the market late do to a military obligation and by the time I could qualify for a home, two years work history, the California market was out of my reach. I moved to Vegas where a new home payment was the same as a So. Cal condo rent payment. The California RE market definately didn't make sense, how many 30 yr. old, 1200SF homes, in a low to moderate income area could be sold for 600K. Vegas was destroyed simply thorugh speculation, as was FL and AZ. A two income family, in which each would make 40K could afford these homes. The problem was, all these people did ARM loans, as many of the bloggers stated above. ARM's are time bombs waiting to explode. If many of these people would have done a traditional loan with a fixed rate even with no money down payments would be paid.

Americans are tired of bailing out the banks, automakers, investors, and even the people that bought their homes cheap, drained all of their equity, and got an ARM loan to maintain the same payment they had before they bought the pool, the RV, and the trip to Europe. The problem is those of us that played by the rules receive no help and the transactors; the realtors, loan officers, and investors who made money on the market upswing are now making it on the market downswing.

I hate to say it but I thought greed and irresponsibilty was the excepton and not the rule, but only those that appear to be one or both are being noticed and helped by our government. There is a fine line between ethical and foolish and the in the next few years many of us will have to chose whether to be both or neither. 

 

 

Leaving Las Vegas
2:17am • #50
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I cant grab it right this minute, as I am on the road, but statistically, most "strategic defaults" are happening with people with good credit, who could pay their mortgage, but are declining to do so not because they cant afford it, but because the value of the property has declined... the arguements that because a value has declined makes the house unaffordable is specious... it is another side of greed.

It also impacts the home values fo the people living around the area. For example, an investor has chosen to strategically default on 2 properties in South Providence, both on the same block as a listing one of my agents just got... the old lady living in this listing owned the property since 1975. She has no mortgage now, but can only sell for perhaps $70K due to the foreclosed properties... it is this sort of thing, a larger than selfish picture, that brings morality and ethics into focus...

8:51am • #51
NOV
11

I'm sorry, but the idea of morality and paying a mortgage after the banks got the biggest taxpayer bailout in history is hilarious.  I think everyone who is upside down, underwater, or whatever, should just walk away and stick it to the banks.  

Blanca DeBree
10:31pm • #52
NOV
12
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Blanca: I agree: Everyone who overpaid for a house should allow the house to be foreclosed on, whether their financial circumstances or payment burden has changed or not... after all, why stop with one bailout for hte banks, when we can have two or three, and why care about our neighbors home values, our own credit, or the ability for home buyers to get financing to purchase houses...

I mean really, just because we were dumb enough to over pay or accept bad loan parameters, does not mean we should feel obligated to make a go of paying it back, even though our payments have not changed, our uncome has not changed, and the home itself remains the same home we purchased knowing all this up front.

Let's go for a second bank bailout as soon as we can... that will help our economy and that of the rest of the world who lent us money.

Yeah... that will teach those banks to lend US money... !

8:19am • #53
NOV
14

No one from whom I borrowed money cashed in an IRA or 401K to loan it to me. It was a part of their business.

When I was in business and was owed money or its equivalent, or got a jolly screwing from a Lender on a project and voiced my Displeasure, I was reminded by one and all, friends amd attorneys, that it was all, "Just business. You take all this too personally"

Well, BofA, Wachovia, Chase and HSBC, I screwed you back.

Why are you pushing these Mortgage Morality shills out here to try to "Shame" me?

Money has no shame. It's just Money.

Get Over It.

 

 

Bubba Osceola
5:01am • #54
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What is a "moral issue"????? For me, if actions undertaken by others impact me or people otyher than themselves, morality comes into play... so does law, ethics, etc. as these all pertain to relationships among and between people. If your income has not changed, and your monthly payment has not changed, yet you decide to default on your obligation, this impacts others in so far as it brings their property values down, and in so far as it makes borrowing much more difficult for others, and in so far as it harms investors who in good faith loaned money to you.

For me, this is a moral issue, and if people are just defaulting because they think it is only screwing the bank they are very sadly mistaken. That is a very short sighted, if not near-sighted, view... Money has no shame, you are right, but people should...

11:20am • #55
NOV
19

People don't just buy a house because 1) they make X amount and 2) the monthly payment is Y.  Another key consideration is that you are investing in a property that, even if it doesn't go up in value, likely is not going to radically go down in value.  It is that third consideration, THAT HAS CHANGED!  Thus even if income and monthly mortgage payments remain constant, folks are now facing the question of whether they continue pouring that money into a house that, first off, isn't even worth what they're paying and, second, is likely remain depreciated for some time OR they can cut their losses (and, let's be honest, the loss is severe -- when folks walk, they lose everything they have put into that house, so it isn't like they're just skipping away, scott free), save thousands of dollars, and then start over.

By focusing only on income stream and monthly payments, you are taking much too simplistic a view of this extremely complicated issue.

Aaron
3:18pm • #56
NOV
20
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Homes in which we live are more about living than about investment... but that aside, I have lsot larghe amounts of money in the stock market, but it was my own money... I did not borrow it, and my losses affect only me... sometimes I have sold the shares, other times bought more to average down the cost... in either case, the investment was with my own money, not borrowed money, and was pure and simple an investment. Of course, I do not leverage my investments in the stock market. Some do.

For me, the complications do not come from personal financial investment consideration, it comes from the moral issue of my actions impacting others... It is not I who have an overly simplistic view Aaron...

9:43am • #57
NOV
21

I know a guy whose house had 50K in equity, and now he is upside down 150K, due to the housing collapse in Arizona.  Nothing more.  The root cause can be attributed to "wreckless lending practices" by the lenders.

Why should he be enslaved for the rest of his life, because of wreckless lending practices by the lenders?

These homes didnt drop in value due to outside forces (hurricanes, acts of God, war, etc).

They dropped in prices because of preemptive wreckless lending practices by our glorious lenders.

Besides we all know (who are in the know) that the Government is behind all of this anyways. Freddie Mac, Fannie Mae. The government holding a gun to lender's heads to loan money to anybody and everyboy  who had no business buying homes.    The legitimate buyers who took out full doc loans are now paying the price too by being upside down.    

This is a business decision. Nothing more.  Shame on the government and the lenders for manufacturing this predictable fall of the housing industry, and I'll be damned if the honest working guy is going to hold the bill on this one.  Not in a million years.   Be brave people.  Walk away from this mess that the banks put you in.  They dealt a bad hand to you, and we need to refuse to accept it. Period.    This is no different than BMW selling you a 75 thousand dollar car, only to find out later that it was nothing more than a Ford Pinto.    Dump it and move on.

While your at it, buy some gold too.  The dollar is going to continue to fall.

 

Peter
3:10am • #58

Paul,

I read your Bernie Maddoff analogy and I almost vomitted.   You cant be serious?

Paul the victims here are not the banks and lenders, but rather the sorry saps who bought houses trusting the lenders, appraisers, etc that their house would be worth what they paid for it, or at least close to what they paid for it.   The homeowners are the victims of wreckless lending.   My Dad is an 87 years old retired executive, and when we discuss real estate, his head spins because never in his life has he ever witnessed the type of 'wreckless lending' practices that occured over the last 10 years.   I respect your right to an opinion, but c'mon, I am shocked that a real estate agent and attorney would seriously compare a strategic defaulter to the likes of Bernie Madoff.  If anything, the banks should take adopt that  analogy.      This is nothing more than a business decision, and it is simply demanding our money back from a bad bill of goods that was sold to us by the industry.   As the saying goes my friend;  "We are as mad as hell and we're not going to take it any more".  

Peter
3:24am • #59

I agree wholeheartedly with Peter on this one.  Paul...you stated "To "strategically foreclose" has the effect of crippling the housing market, and damaging the value of other homes in the area."  Well the damage was already done before anyone even considered strategic defaults, and in great part due to what Peter has already mentioned.  Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae are the culprits here, make no mistake.  Reckless lending practices coupled with the current practice of flooding the market with their mistakes at firesale prices have done more to destabilize the market than any other influence, including strategic defaults.  The guy who continues to pay on an underwater mortgage has to bear the added insult of watching his tax dollars go to subsidize the continued failure of these institutions while at the same time suffering exponential losses in equity (or more appropriately,  increased negative equity) due to the flood of government subsidized foreclosure sales and a restricted credit market.  So the "moral" of this story is abundantly clear.  Good guys finish last.

John
8:41am • #60
NOV
26

Banks don't write contracts, make loans, reposess cars, sell batches of mortgages to overseas groups, change interest rates or foreclose on little old ladies out of any sense of morality.   They do it to make a profit.  If the bank (which is large corporation not some human philosopher) doesn't view the mortgage contract as a moral issue why should the homeowner view it as some sort of moral obligation?

There's no crying in baseball or banking.  Not these days anyway.

Sam
1:39am • #61
NOV
30

I am considering strategicly defaulting on my Mortgage. I am not upside down on it. Problem is with the banking fiasco they have changed the rules of financing. Because my house is a trailer home with an addition, banks are no longer offering financing to prospective buyers on it. How ever they were all too happy to lend me the money on my first mort in 2002 and second in 2005. I have left my home in search of new opportunities and now it sets vacant. I will not continue to make payments on a home I don't, A. Live in and, B. can't sell because banks will not finance it. I am with Brent White. See below.

Brent T. White

University of Arizona - James E. Rogers College of Law

 

November 2, 2009

 

Arizona Legal Studies Discussion Paper No 09-35

 

Abstract:     

Despite reports that homeowners are increasingly "walking away" from their mortgages, most homeowners continue to make their payments even when they are significantly underwater. This article suggests that most homeowners choose not to strategically default as a result of two emotional forces: 1) the desire to avoid the shame and guilt of foreclosure; and 2) exaggerated anxiety over foreclosure's perceived consequences. Moreover, these emotional constraints are actively cultivated by the government and other social control agents in order to encourage homeowners to follow social and moral norms related to the honoring of financial obligations - and to ignore market and legal norms under which strategic default might be both viable and the wisest financial decision. Norms governing homeowner behavior stand in sharp contrast to norms governing lenders, who seek to maximize profits or minimize losses irrespective of concerns of morality or social responsibility. This norm asymmetry leads to distributional inequalities in which individual homeowners shoulder a disproportionate burden from the housing collapse.

Bob
4:02pm • #62
DEC
19

I am suppose to feel guilty that the current holder of my mortgage B of A, willingly purchase that corrupt outfit Country Wide?   The banks surely had a hand in the real estate bust and certainly were not being morally guided as they created their half of the senerio.

jairr
12:06am • #63

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Rhode Island Real Estate, Buyers Agents, Paul Silver

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