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Cap and Trade: Yet Another Scam

I'm a couple weeks behind this one, as all the media focus lately has been on the health care bill. I've had several interesting discussions around cap and trade lately that inspired me to put my thoughts down into a blog post.

Disclaimer

I consider myself a fairly environmentally conscious person, I do believe based on data and observations human activity is creating a huge and very negative impact on the global climate. I'm extremely worried about the this planet over the next several decades. To me the health of this planet overrides any economic impacts of decisions, but at the same time I believe doing what is right for the planet can be done in ways that is also very economically beneficial in the long run. I'm not writing this post to debate these points...

Cap and Trade is a Wolf in Sheeps Clothing

The idea behind the bill sounds fine based on the highest level talking points, incentivize investment in alternative energy and at the same time disincentivize the polluters. Once you look under the hood though, the best phrase I can use to describe it, is "financial scam".

What got me looking at, and thinking about the impacts of the cap and trade bill was when I noticed the biggest supporters throwing the most lobbyists and money behind it was not the alternative energy industry but the Wall Street investment banks. Why?

It comes down to the whole "trade" part of the bill where carbon credits received can be traded/sold to carbon producers. It's been estimated that this could create the largest derivatives market, larger than the CDS's (credit default swaps). These credits would trade on an exchange (partially owned by Goldman Sachs) and would be a multi-billion dollar windfall for the investment banks.

Since the number of carbon credits available is fixed, and is reduced each year this creates a made in heaven market for large traders and speculators (hedge funds, investment banks). The carbon bubble will become the new credit bubble, as speculators suck productive money from the system.

Destructive Impacts on the Alternative Energy Industry

I've got a lot of friends involved in the alternative energy industry who believe this bill is a windfall for the industry and will spark the next big revolution in alternative industry. Be careful what you wish for, the long term impact on the industry may in fact be very destructive.

It's analogous to what happened with the housing market and credit bubble in 02-06 with all these new fangled mortgage products, CDO's, CDS'. Everybody touted these products as being great for the housing industry as they made housing more "affordable" and accessible to the masses. We now realize the truly destructive nature of these products, which incidentally were created by the same Wall Street banks behind the cap and trade bill.

Particularly as the price of carbon credits in driven up by speculators, it will become extremely profitable for companies producing them. The catch is the total number of credits is limited and there really isn't a direct tie between a technology being beneficial long-term, and producing carbon credits. You will see hundreds of companies pop up, simply built to capture huge profits from carbon credits, with technologies that otherwise would not make any sense.

In much the same way as imprudent lenders pitching alternative mortgage products forced prudent lenders out of the mortgage business, viable alternative energy technologies will be squeezed. Investment will be redirected from the productive to the speculative, with very negative consequences. Of course this bill is practically designed to create a "carbon bubble", who's popping in a few years, will sow yet another round of economic destruction laying waste to a whole industry while the pig men walk away with their sacks of money.

Posted by Matt Heaton on 07/28/2009 02:48 PM

Comments (70)

economy

70 Comments on Cap and Trade: Yet Another Scam

JUL

I am woefully under educated on the long term ramifications of this bill, even though I knew instinctively that I was against it, your reasoning explains my gut instinct very well. Thanks for taking the time to put in in plain English.

I do believe based on data human activity is creating a huge and very negative impact on the global climate. I'm extremely worried about the this planet over the next several decades.

Which data?

Matt, I respect your intellect which is why I'm astounded that you would draw this conclusion on incomplete data. Isn't time for scientists to have open and healthy debate before we start accepting "the world is flat" premise?

Thanks for shedding some light on this subject - The events up to this point make a lot more sense now that I hear Wall Street is pushing this.

It's also interesting to note that the drug companies and other big money is the one pushing & promoting the healthcare bill.

It's makes you lose a lot of faith in the ones in the government that proclaim they're "Looking out for the little guy"

Always a good read Matt.

You take the high road and I'll take the low road and mention that the first and biggest beneficiaries of Cap and Trade will be the usual suspects including, as wisely pointed out in your article, the Wall Street large traders and speculators (hedge funds, investment banks. However, it couldn't be done without the political cover of Congress.

Al Gore's company, Generation Investment Management, set up with David Blood, a former CEO of Goldman Sachs, is after all an asset management fund which manages investments already worth billions.

The ball is already rolling like a giant snowball rolling downhill on a Swiss mountainside gathering speed and size.

The spirit of the bill is very commendable, but, and I know I'm stepping on a landmine, this needs to be regulated. If it is seen for the ideal that it hopes to achieve, it must be doggedly regulated or as Matt stated, it can be our next bubble. Oversight is an absolute must and in a way that insures that innovation is not gobbled up as in the past.

Hi Matt, I enjoyed your post, first seeing it on Twitter, clicking the link and voila, here I am. I didn't realize that I hadn't already subscribed to your blog. I fixed that easily enough.

I particularly thought that one of your sentences in the post , actually made me chuckle, though it is a very serious and well done post. But here is the sentence and a possible rebuttal from someone out there in Internet Land who doesn't accept the premise of any Cap and Trade or other idea when it comes to Global Warming.

"I do believe based on data, human activity is creating a huge and very negative impact on the global climate" . A possible rebuttal to this statement from those who might not agree with this premise. " Are you suggesting that all human activity should be ceased so the planet can be saved or just some activities. And which activities might those be?, Breathing perhaps? LOL "

Your insight on this issue is spot on. While the rest of the world prospers, we are going to play this economic game that will impact our lives here in the US , disproportionately and with huge economic disadvantages, while the rest of the world goes about their merry way. All the merry way to the proverbial bank.

The Wolf is leading the sheepels of America right to where they blindly want to go. Sadly arriving at their destination only to find, no return trip was ever planned for them.

If Cap and Trade passes; AL GORE will become the first GREEN billionaire. Now I am a capatilist so if he became a Green Billionaire fair and square through a capitalist system then I would say, darn, too bad I did not think of that first. But this is not free market making the billionaires in the Green fields, it is fascism in its truest form- mandated by political friends, Washington DC and Congress along with global partners who stand to gain billions also while the rest of us will only be paying higher costs for energy and get penalized for not obeying their mandates. It is the worst thing ever to happen along with government healthcare. I wrote a post on how Cap and Trade will effect Realtors and Homeowners; it was reblogged over 24 times within 24 hours so that tells me that there are people who care about this issue and we need to spread the word to stop this mess. Katerina

Brian: Like I said in my paragraph my purpose of the post was not to address the debate on whether humans are effecting the global climate. That is a VERY heated debate, even in parts of the scientific community of late. There is a lot of incomplete data (as there is with most scientific theories), and it's certainly not as simple as humans releasing carbon into the atmosphere causes global warming. Taking data, observations, and experiments into account I'm very convinced that human activity has a substantial impact on our the global environment and ultimately the climate. Feel free to disagree, but it's not the issue I'm trying to focus on here.

Dan: Yeah, follow the money, the health care bill is pretty similar, it will really ends up enriching a certain set of corporate interests while being pitched as helping the little guy or the uninsured.

Please, everybody, can we agree that global warming is real. If you can't accept human impact as a cause of global climate change, I'm sorry, but I don't think you have the intellectual horsepower to engage in a debate. Discussing the pros and cons of alternative ways to reduce our carbon footprint requires good faith and an open mind...and an understanding of global warming.

Cap and trade is one way. A flat carbon tax is another. Mandating fuel economy standards and a renewable portfolio standard are still other ways. Let's focus on solutions, not denying the problem.

Matt, who can measure these carbon credits. Then, is global warming real? Maybe, maybe not. Look at all the record low temperatures in the North this year. You are wise to scrutinize this.

If the companies actually comply with the "Cap" portion of the legislation, then there will be a limit to the "Trade" portion. Granted, with either way there is a cost, but that cost is spread out over an entire industry, which is intended to keep the cost low. In fact, the intention of this type of legislation is to keep the government out of the business, except for actually setting the limits and to let business, with its inherent capability for ingenuity, tackle the problem of how to accomplish the task.

Follow the money always works as well said above.

"Al Gore's company, Generation Investment Management, set up with David Blood, a former CEO of Goldman Sachs, is after all an asset management fund which manages investments already worth billions" Lenn

How does this charlatan sleep? Global warming my arse, there is so much data on the other side, how can anyone pass legislation as far reaching as this on Gore's say so?

Matt...

I'm kind of afraid to say anything now. I'm just gonna go away :)

TLW...ROAR!

Dave- First of all; there are scientists on both sides of the issue on this. There is no question that there is climate change. The difference of opinion is whether it is man caused or not. If it is NOT man caused then there is nothing you will be able to do to stop it, a part of the cycle of the earth. I personally after reviewing the evidence from scientists who have been told to shut up is that it is NOT man generated. I personally believe that God is smart enough to know what we will do and have safeguards put in place but I digress.

Carbons are good for the earth and man produces less than .02% of the carbons emitted. Not a whole lot, however the carbons are actually at a dangerously low level not the opposite. There is some amazing science in botony going on in France regarding the healthy uses for carbons in growing our food.

Next, if it were true all that you are saying, and if Cap and trade in your opinion is some type of a step, does the end justify the means? So you are OK with the government and wall street choosing who can make money and who can not? You are OK with the people in the Coal counties to freeze to death in the winters because they can not afford the alternative fuels? The list can go on and on. So you will trade in all of your liberties in order that the government MIGHT make a difference in carbon emissions? Katerina

Any Cap and Trade system enforced only within the borders of the United States is farcical, at best, if the intention is to truly reduce carbon emissions. Without China and India participation, the outcome would be meaningless.

That being said, we are all stewards of this earth, and can do a better job maintaining and protecting our world.

There is a lot of incomplete data (as there is with most scientific theories), and it's certainly not as simple as humans releasing carbon into the atmosphere causes global warming.

but...

I reject that the earth is warming, regardless of the ad hominem attacks Mr Roberts spews about my "intellectual horsepower" to question the theory which (you admit) is concluded from incomplete data. (That's called the "shut up" approach and it's worked for the global warming theorists for 30 years now)

If humans are destroying the earth faster than God (or Mother Nature to those offended by that three letter word) can regenerate it, than you MUST be FOR cap and trade... and infanticide... and planned life terminations at a certain age. If not, we'll all die because we'll run out of oxygen. Cap and Trade doesn't go far enough to preserve the world's supply of O2.

Matt - there are hundreds of things wrong with this bill. Along with favoring the "traders" there are multiple areas in the bill where there is no ceiling on costs, using the language "Such Sums As Must Be Necessary" . They only thing it will accomplish is to hasten the fall of the U.S. economy behind that of China and India.

If global warming is really caused by humans, the most guilty would be Al Gore who's mountains of BS is causing volumes of methane gas to be released into the atmosphere/

Matt, So much for trying to start a conversation about cap and trade from another perspective. Your points and concerns are certainly valid. It's almost always about the money and who can profit. I'll leave the global warming debate alone.

This is really good information that you have shared with us. I need to study it futher. Thanks for opening my eyes.

Ginger

And Brian what conclusive data are you basing this statement on? "I reject that the earth is warming"

Personally "I'm astounded that you would draw this conclusion on incomplete data"

Global warming (caused by man), which can't be proved or disproved, is a far cry from "the world is flat" which has been disproved.

You can't have it both way.

Global warming (caused by man), which can't be proved or disproved, is a far cry from "the world is flat" which has been disproved

This is my point, BB. I reject the theory because it hasn't been conclusively proven (but I'm open to debate, unlike those that would stifle debate with "no true Scotsman" fallacies) .

You can't have it both way.

Matt's argument against Cap and Trade is like arguing why a stake through the heart isn't an effective way to kill a vampire. Of course, I lack "intellectual horsepower" because I believe that inconclusive data about vampires' existence is a reason to question whether they roam the earth.

were you all aware that, since last year, GE has been setting up a carbon credit trading division. They have been lobbying hard, due to, of course, their large investment in Windmills, Nuclear and

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/jeff-poor/2009/05/20/ges-jeff-immelt-global-warming-compelling-cap-trade-most-effective-way-go

Man made global warming is one big lie. A hoax. You don't need to listen to my opinion or Al Gore. Do you own research, it's beyond reason. There are 5 times as many scientists with PROOF that it's a lie then there are global warming scientists who rely on their paycheck to keep the hoax going.

Oh, by the way, the earth has been cooling for the past 9 years so now they call it climate change. CLIMATE CHANGE??? Really, the climate changes???? No Way! Don't they teach that in grade 3.

The only reason they are introducing this cap and trade is to implement a world tax to further enslave us. Other countries will be following suit, without any say from the people that are being enslaved. More taxes passed on thru to the public. Bend over.

Yes the environment needs to be looked after. Unfortunantely this won't do didally. Hey, here's an idea, why not rid of the use of Oil? The technology is there, the need is there, people would love it. But can't do that....can't get rid of something that controls us and funnels are money to the few.

The people introducing this scam don't care about the environment. They don't care about you.

Sorry Matt . . . but I have to ask "Dave" -- Ever wonder if the July 2006 ice in the Churchill sound was an ANOMALY and not what is there normally in July. Maybe the July 2007 photo was an ANOMALY too. Maybe there is was really cold in July 2006 and really hot July 2007. The average for July in Barrow, Alaska is 50F, and I doubt that there is so much ice accumulated as shown in the July 2006 with that AVERAGE temp.

Put up an entire 100 years of photos . . . and let's see MORE then two pictures . . . which, if you ask any STATISTICIAN . . . is NOT an accurate study, or example.

"The sky is falling," said Chicken Little.

Matt,

I always find your blog posts to be very inciteful. I'll refrain from commenting about my opinion of global warming to stay on subject...BUT regardless of whether it's real/man made or a fairy tale, it's pretty obvious that this legislation is bad for everyone, except for the lobbyists and investment bankers who stand to get rich while possibly inflating another huge derivatives bubble. That's true no matter what side of the fence you stand on.

Hi Ryan. Seconded. They care about making a profit.

Matt, thanks for posting on this topic. Why does our government only think to regulate and mandate instead of gving incentives to those who develop and use alternative fuels? If the economic incentives were there, businesses would naturally gravitate to new fuel choices.

The emerging economies are laughing all the way to the bank on this one - and the citizens of the United States are being duped once again with a smoke and mirrors routine at the highest levels. It is immoral and unconscionable. I am all for developing alternative fuels and moving beyond oil and coal BUT not at the expense of our country/economy along the way.

Sharon

Hi Matt -- Very interesting perspective and you just may be right, it makes sense. Change is always a double-edge sword and most of the fallout isn't felt until it's too late for it to be easily cleaned up (no pun intended).

I did not know this, "What got me looking at, and thinking about the impacts of the cap and trade bill was when I noticed the biggest supporters throwing the most lobbyists and money behind it was not the alternative energy industry but the Wall Street investment banks."

This really is an amazing phenomenon as to how Wall St. continues to try to make money at taxpayer expense.

The people who will be voting on passage of the Crap and Trade Bill probably will not read it before voting, just like this Health Care Bill. I intend to vote against any of the officials representing me who vote for the current Health Care Bill and the Crap and Trade Bill. I'm just one guy, but they are all on notice. Unfortunately that may be too late as the train has left the station. Just hope there are enough people who can slow this thing down and get it stopped.

Mark, please review real history about "wall street" and who is running the show.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-515319560256183936

I must be in a huge minority here because I can't understand how anyone can arrive at the conclusion that human activity is NOT contributing to global warming. I'm not a scientist, but it seems to me that there is plenty of evidence that the Earth is warming. How we deal with a warmer climate is the topic of much heated debate. Cap and trade seems to be overkill, but what if we, the inhabitants of the Earth could do something to stop it or slow it down. It seems to me that we all have a vested interest in the future of our planet for our future generations. Just my humble opinion.

Love your post and the great ongoing debate. My meteorology professor from the university said global warming was a hoax. That was back in the early 1990s. I am all for using our resources responsibly and not creating more landfills, but creating propaganda in order to further political agendas is simply wrong. Seems to be a lot of that going on this year. Still don't know the why behind the "swine flu scare".

Matt: This is very interesting.. I'll park and see what other have to say as well.

Lenn hit the financial point above... Blood and Gore will be making a killing.

Now, I happen to disagree with you in regards to the premise of AGW (Anthropogenic Global Warming)... but that isn't even a consideration in the bill.

What IS a consideration is that the rest of the world is NOT bound by this bill. The bottom line is that the way that many companies with react to the "Carbon Bubble" is to relocate manufacturing in other parts of the world... where the governments are not going to enact suicidal legislation... like India and China. So... as those companies evacuate with the jobs they own, we will face a deeper economic collapse....

But wait, there's more!

When these companies relocate, the environmental mitigation they take here will be tossed out the window... basically, it will be easier to pollute in India or China or Burma than it is here... and then there is the ADDITIONAL carbon usage to send the products that aren't made here anymore BACK here in order to sell them.

The bottom line is that it will actually increase carbon rather than decrease it.

Destructive on every level... increasing unemployment, decreasing exports, increasing imports, and economic collapse...

Dave - Keep in mind that the warmest year on record is 1934... and the warmest decade is the 1930s...

And there is this little gem...

‘It will, without doubt, have come to your Lordship’s knowledge that a considerable change of climate, inexplicable at present to us, must have taken place in the Circumpolar Regions, by which the severity of the cold that has for centuries past enclosed the seas in the high northern latitudes in an impenetrable barrier of ice, has been during the last two years greatly abated. This affords ample proof that new sources of warmth have been opened, and give us leave to hope that the Arctic Seas may at this time be more accessible than they have been for centuries past, and that discoveries may now be made in them, not only interesting to the advancement of science, but also to the future intercourse of mankind and the commerce of distant nations.’

Sounds like it supports modern findings... except it was written in 1817... before the temperature started to rise according to the modelers. Source.

I saw a chart that i haven't been able to find again lately. It showed the adjusted and unadjusted global temperatures for the last century... it was odd, that even with urbanization (the adjustments are supposed to decrease the temps to compensate) that the ENTIRE increase in temperatures was due to the adjustments, not the actual temperatures. That is supported by more recent findings from NOAA showing that ocean temps aren't rising, ice is increasing in Antarctica and even the Arctic is increasing thickness...

Wayne- You are JUST ONE GUY, but when you add up ALL OF US JUST ONE GUYS- we can make a difference. I have written, emailed, faxed and called Mel Martinez office over and over again, he is our Senator from Florida and he is GOP- but he is voting FOR CAP AND TRADE and he wrote me a long email why. He thinks that is we the US people sacrafice and set the example that India and China will follow our example. I asked him what planet he was living on! Too bad he is NOT running again for the senate! Because I would LOVE to VOTE AGAINST HIM!!!!! He is from Cuba and I am appalled that he is thinking that loss of liberty is something we should sacrafrice! He ran away from Castro! What a hypocrite! I will join everyone to help vote out ANY POLITICIAN that votes YES on cap and trade or the health bill. This is not a party issue, this is a liberty and freedom issue. Katerina

Melissa- because GOD is much smarter than man!

Lane- Hmmm, could it be that this is actually a part of some plan, more companies moving to China, after all, look at how indebted we are to them.

We have not yet revived our economy after the disaster of the credit default swaps. The genius of destructive influence is that it never gives up. God help us... I can see how the mechanisms for unrivaled greed and profit are gearing up for the next round.

JUL

I know people have mixed feelings about Palin. Here is an article that was in THe Washington Post. It's Sarah Palin's opinion of the cap and trade.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/13/AR2009071302852_pf.html

Hi Matt - "Carbon bubble" is a great way to describe the trading of credits. I think you should head to Washington and have a beer with President Obama to address this.

I distinctly remember the "Ice Age" that was coming in the '70's so I'm not particularly afraid of Global Warming. The globe is always warming or cooling ... because weather and climate is always changing.

It's possible (but in my opinion) unlikely that human activity is changing the climate. Of course, everyone is against pollution. And, I recognize the possibility that I might be wrong.

But, it seems bizarre to pay the government and investment bankers a tax schemed upon man controlling the weather. We have to pay them a ransom to fix the climate? It's crazy! Who dreamed this up? Kaos (from Get Smart)?

Weather tribute is one of the old scams on the planet. They want us to be the villagers who pay tribute to a wooden idol to get rain for crops. They of course collect a small fee for maintaining the idol, but the idol is for everyone's benefit.

But Matt's point is well-taken. I am one of the villagers who say, "It's a piece of wood, people."

He's one of the villagers who is saying, "I fear and respect the mighty wooden god, and I want to be a good villager. But, if we pay money to the idol, it's not going to do anything but make the witch doctor rich."

In other words, he wants to make it clear that he's not "intellectualy deficient" like me. In the old days those who didn't swallow everything they were told were called "blasphemers". Now, we're called intellectually deficient.

Let's just say, I know I'm not helping Matt's cause by saying he's 100% correct on this one.

Everyone is in favor of a cleaner environment, but in the end engineering an economy never works. This scheme is a scam plain and simple.

Thanks Matt. This is a great post and shows how the government just can't get it quite right most times. Good intentions, but not so good actions.

Matt, I always enjoy reading your posts. You have ways of looking at things and "talking" about them that helps me get a better grasp on what's going on. Also sometimes comments have a life of their own and it's been interesting reading these. This issue is not going away and I'm afraid that it's going to bite us.

Matt: Very interesting post and comments. I will come back and see where the arguments end up. Tere

I guess I have an issue with the whole global warming theory. We have had several years of drought in VA and that was supposedly caused by global warming and this year we are way over the average for rainfall and that is because of global warming.

OMG!!! This is exactly why I had my satellite TV DISCONNECTED!!! Listening to what is going on in our country and WORLD is killing me slowly!!! THE POINT IS NOONE IS FOR THE PEOPLE ANYMORE... industry is running our country. They get everything... the republican and the democrats are in cahoots together livin' it up, raising their salaries and benefits every year. Padding their pockets and rubbing the backs of their socalite friends.

When people DECIDE that they don't need protection ANYMORE and THEY DECIDE WHATS GOOD FOR THEMSELVES then ... maybe something will change... BUT IF WE WANT INSURANCE that nothing bad is ever is going to come our way our FREEDOMS are going to become obsolete and BAD THINGS will STILL happen!

Matt as for the environment.... instead of creating another TAX that the GOVERNMENT can set how many CREDITS are created and have wall street controlling it -like you said BLOW IT UP yet again with another econonmic clapsing BUBBLE

EVERYONE needs to go to their farms... go home... it's the people in the cities... with their bustling EXCITING and FULL lives that want things like CAP and TRADE... to lessen the guilt of destroying our planet. There is NO GOING BACK....

and who cares anyways... the super volcano could blow in yellowstone at any minute and it would be lights out for everything on the planet..

ANY OTHER NUMBER OF THINGS THAT HAS HAPPENED TO THIS LOVELY BEAUTIFUL PLANET in the past...

LISTEN this is about GOD and SATAN.... you can run but you can't hide!!

Once you realize that every ECONOMIC collapse and WAR has been manufactured by the richest elitest most powerful men on the planet... and you see that the LIE is different at every level... YOU REALIZE THE TRUTH!!! A lie so deep can ONLY be SATAN. Sure I may sound crazy, but I am a RATIONAL person and I know that a lie so deep can only be that!

Some of you probably are still in denial (if not all of you) that the pentagon was VERY OBVISOULY hit with a GPS guided missile.

THEY GOT AWAY WITH THAT LIE (SORTA) WHAT OTHER LIES ARE THERE... REMEMBER PEOPLE THE LIE IS DIFFERENT AT EVERY LEVEL!!! (another words people only know what they are told to say.. they repeat the lie down the pipeline...you only know what the news tells you, what industry wants you to believe is what they play on TV) - i knew over the last decade that we were being brain washed by GE and their networks - all the go green channels - they want OUR TAX money to build their SMART GRID system and their solar farms... - then they can mandate exactly HOW MUCH energy we use, when we can use it ( all under the guise of making it cheaper) - forgot about giving incentives to the PEOPLE or better yet - letting them keep their own TAX dollars to MAKE their own energy on their properties at home... NO They want us to pay them for energy.... by way of telling us that if we don't do what they say we will be in a waterworld!!! HAHAHA!

I think I am going to have to do my own blog about this..

THIS!!! is why I turned off the tube!! LOL

If anyone knows a little bit of HISTORY... our government was set up as a Republic, modeled after Rome ... ROME FELL BECAUSE THE SENATORS WERE CORRUPT!!! Need I say more???

I'm sorry I HAD to say one more thing!!! I didn't vote for Obama! BUT to anyone that thinks they can lay blame to where we are now on OBAMA... HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! He is a talking head, a PAWN... picked by the ELITE, sold to the AMERICAN population. Obama is nothing more than a FALL GUY... unfortunately I believe soon he will be the MOST hated President - ONLY because he takes orders so well!!

CONGRESS MAKES THE LAWS PEOPLE!!!! CONGRESSSSSS!!!

Well my factory is allowed to produce 50 million tons of pollution but since I only create 25 millions tons I can sell my credit to someone who is producing 75 million tons. Does anybody else see the point we are missing?

I got in on this a bit late and the discussion is interesting. Global warming is more of a political and economic event than an environmental event. Just ask any politician!

Thomas Jefferson was the first president to worry about global warming look it up... this is on going and it is not any worse now than it was ...cap and tax trade is BAD and it has nothing to do with saving the world... it will make Al Gore and his henchmen rich...Nancy pissoli and probably whoever funded obamas campaign...

I live in Alaska so for the gentleman who put up the barrow map which I believe is altered... we have had RECORD BREAKING COLD up her for 2 years... we had to cut Russian ships out of the ice.... up there where they are trying to steal our oil because the government wont let us take it..... in JUNE.... there is a lot of BAD information out there ... it would be nice if we could look at the truth not a pack of Al Gore Lies

This bill should be called "Tax & Raid" is it is about getting money from us. Michael Chrichton wrote an excellent but well documented fiction book call State of Fear, the appendix alone should cause believers to have doubts. Chrichton's specialty was taking complex real issues and fictionalizing them for the mass market, but he was a brilliant man.

Silly me - I believe that if 'green' products were made available at decent prices, many folks would choose them without government enforcement. But the politicians won't get rich that way, I guess, so forget about it.

I think that we just need to remember why Congress makes and changes laws: money and re-election...if we want to change what is happening, we need to start fresh at the top. Remove ALL congressmen and replace them with fresh ones. Place term limits on them. Check out www.moveoutcongress.com.

BTW, I agree completely w/ you Katerina!

The ONLY truthful words to come from obama's mouth since he bagan his campaign were "electricity bills will skyrocket". Not only your home bills but on everything you buy folks. Now, India, China and others are laughing at him and greatful as this will close more companies and send more jobs offshore. obama never heard Rev Wright say anything bad about the US either.

Remember when discussed Medicare was to be voluntary and cheap when it was discussed. How many working people are not paying the 'tax'? NONE! How many over 65 are not covered? NONE. Does anyone believe obama on health care either?

All worried about 'carbon credits' can send me a check monthly and I'll plant a tree for you.

Cap & Trade plus nationalizing health care are not good things! Sad to say but I see obama as a socialist liar bent on ruining the US capitalistic society.

Celeste Decker gets it. Good to see someone else is unprogramed.

I do have faith that the popluation can awaken.

I don't agree at all with global warming, it is a complete unscientific hoax.

The bill is cap and tax.

It is a way for the Al Gore's to make billions, it is a way to end the economic stability of our energy.

It will send jobs over seas.

It will not help the "climate".

I was so glad to see that Nashville broke their record for lowest temperture in July. I hope Al Gore had to get his sweater out.

Matt, this really spurred a lot of comments. I agree with Missy, above. The same group (or group think) pushing "global warming" (aka Climate Change) was pushing the "mini ice age" in the 70's. If the planet is getting warmer, and that is a BIG IF, I think it is through nature. The planet warms and cools, like it has for millions or billions of years.

Follow the money. Who is pushing this hoax? Do they want you to change YOUR way of living? Will they change theirs? The "cap and trade" is nothing more than a way to raise our taxes and gain more control.

Wow, wow, wow! You people make me proud to be a Realtor! You have restored my faith in Americans. Thank you.

Celeste- You are a brave soul and all those laughing at the conspiracy theorists may not be laughing for long. It all about what THEY want you to see and know. Think about it. Read about Woodrow Wilson, Teddy Roosevelt and Franklin D Roosevelt! Then you will see what Celeste is saying is not far fetched at all.

Jessica- I totally believe that God is more powerful than man and nothing will destroy his plan. You are right, man is too arragont to actually believe they are more powerful and mighty than GOD.

Forget the Anthropogenic Global Warming argument... it doesn't matter. This bill is destructive towards the environment even if AGW is real... That is the point.

JUL

Matt gets it. It is a scam.

Questions:

1. Hey if a single active volcano puts out 1000 times more CO2 than ALL of humanilty each year, and we have dozens of active volcanoes, how is eliminating (even ALL) of the COs produced by man going to help?

2. If you like Cap and Trade, how does any of the (t)billions get from Al Gore, GE, US Treasury get the air clean?

3. If we waived a magic wand and got rid of the CO2, how would the trees live to make oxygen for us pesky humans?

4. Who will buy the homes that will foreclose because they have to be GREEN to be sold, can't and get foreclosed on? Who then will make the empty hulk green?

5. Should we always ignore logic just to feel good... or is it about control and power.

Regarding global temperatures, whether they be rising, falling, or staying the same, I am curious if anyone knows where I can get this data. Certainly there are many factors which impact the earth's climate including the sun, volcanoes, and some which are man made, however I find it difficult to say what is actually happening if I do not have the data. I can look at a particular part of the globe and see what is taking place at that location, but it would be absurd to assume that everywhere else on the globe were similar to that one location. The fact that there is a non-value-added money making element to this issue or the fact that other weather cotributing factors are not and in some cases cannot be addressed does not mean that there is not some merit in addressing man made pollution.

Matt,

This is a brilliant post. A lot of people intend right, have good hearts and care about taking care of the earth, but cap and trade is not about environmental stewardship.

Cap and trade amounts to "buying" and "selling" the right to pollute. Companies pollute anyways... with cap and trade, they'll just have to "buy" the right to do so. Cap and trade merely creates a superficial market... But the same companies will still pollute, because companies don't/can't just magically restructure their entire organizations overnight (organizations that have been in existance for decades and that are based around "pollution as usual" as a part of their profitability structure don't and can't just change...). That's not realistic... What will happen instead is they'll play "lip service" in this new Cap and Trade derivatives market.

Cap and trade will be just another derivatives market, just like you said Matt.... I don't think most people understand derivatives... Derivatives are a scam, if Americans understood this, our government would be overthrown (like a good friend of mine said in a recent conversation) for how it's handled the recent 10 months [and the years before that!] and for not really revealing to people what's going on. It's not just about mortgages.

Caring about the environment means investing in greener and cleaner methods of production, changing inherent approaches to business and addressing people's attitudes regarding entitlememt to pollute, and throwing out the old business model of how "profitability" is defined in order to consider future cost to the environment.

A test for how much people really care about the environment: Do we really believe cap and trade will do anything to alter inherent entitlement attitudes that companies have about pollution? Chew on this for a little: do we personally care about the environment? Does our "walk" prove our "talk"? An easy test of something we could apply right now in our personal lives--- How many people reading this [those one or two of you LOL] would willingly STOP buying processed foods and instead by fresh foods (vegetables, non-boxed, non-packaged items, items sold in bulk (not Costco-- stuff you put in bags by the pound is what I'm referring to)) just to cut down on their personal waste creation?

If individual people like you and me won't do something so easy as to change their grocery shopping habits in order to cut down their waste/garbage footprint, why should we think cap and trade gets even close to addressing the true motives of the heart behind poor environmental stewardship in those running the largest companies? [by the way, I don't buy many boxed or processed foods, not that I'm an angel or anything... ;) I do aim to walk my talk...]

I believe that in America our view is crippled by an over-altruism perception. We like to think well of ourselves but our walk doesn't align with our talk. We truly believe in the goodness of others and ourselves. This is not so in other countries. Go to post-communist countries, or any non-westernized country (or any westernized country other than the US) and you'll see that people understand that altruism is not how most people function. We presume that our government watches out for us. We don't do our homework as a result... we don't want to, because we might have to confront ourselves... Realizing the dishonesty in our government may call us to confront the dishonesty we have with ourselves...

The key to companies polluting less is not creating a new derivatives market. The key is to pollute less. This has to stem from a philosophical repentance by corporate board members and exectuive leadership from an attitude of entitlement to their embrace of environmental stewardship as one's duty and responsibility. Profitability (money) should not be the highest "master"...

JUL

Wow - I am excited to read that I'm not the only realtor in this country who know what B.S. smells like.

Unfortunately, we have Nancy Pelosi in control of congress right now, and so far, anything she proposes seems to be a bad thing for all of us. How can we get her out of office?

AUG

cap and trade has one gaol. To raise the cost of conventional energy so the more expensive green alternatives are affordable. Anybody see what happened to the cost of energy in countries that adopted Kyoto? some in Europe pay 20% higher for their energy

this is nothing more than artificially inflating prices of one item, to make an alternative more feasible. It is Bad Law

AUG

I agree with Brian Brady, you need to take a hard look at natural (non human intervention) occurences, like VOLCANOS, DEAD VEGETATION, ANIMAL FECES, DEAD ANIMAL CARCASSES and 2/3 of the surface of the earth the OCEANS & their own emissions of Carbon Dioxide before you start crying "MAN BEAR PIG". (Southpark reference in case you didn't get that) it's a great episode, I suggest you YouTube it.

It hasn't been determined by the whole of the scientific community by a long shot that global climate change has anything to do with what humans do.

First you need to explain to me the "little ice age" and the "warming period" that occured 100's of years ago before Refinaries, gas autos, nuclear bombs, airplanes etc.

Don't get me wrong, I do recycle & I do think L.A. would look much nicer minus the smog.

Wall Street will look for anything to make money with, any scam we humans are suckered into.

AUG

I can sell my credit to someone who is producing 75 million tons. Does anybody else see the point we are missing?

Cap and Trade may be an incentive to pollute and pay, Michael. I've often said that the parking ticket's at the beach are more reasonable than the parking fees (and they just put them on your account)

Don't get me wrong, I do recycle & I do think L.A. would look much nicer minus the smog.

Exactly, Emily. I'm a conservationist; I would never think of littering on someone else's property but I think it's reprehensible for someone to tell me what I can and can't do with mine (post facto)

SEP

I have been aware that this was no good and have been emailing my reps for a while now. Thank you for bringing it attention on a post with so many viewers such as this.

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Cap and Trade: Yet Another Scam

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