South Bay-Beach Cities.. some thoughts on where real estate prices headed for the second half of 2009....



Sometimes when I get caught up in my geeky statistical mode I'm not quite sure where the numbers will take me. Over the last week or so I've been posting information on home sales in Manhattan Beach, Hermosa Beach, Redondo Beach and El Segundo for the period January-June 2000-2009. My original intent was to stick with the year over year figures for January-June 2007-2009. I soon realized that I needed to go back further to get a better picture of market trends.


While those numbers were interesting and showed definite changes in the market, there was still something nagging me about the market. My focus became a bit clearer after I posted the stats for July 2009 in the Beach Cities. The overall trend was very clear... inventory is down, sale volume is up a bit and prices are significantly lower in all the Beach Cities. But there is more then that happening in our local market.


Reviewing the numbers it is easy to see that sales volume peaked for homes sold in Manhattan, Hermosa and North Redondo in 2002. However in El Segundo it peaked in 2001 and in South Redondo it was 2000. Using median sale prices it looks as if home prices peaked in El Segundo, and North and South Redondo in 2006. In Manhattan Beach it seems to have been 2008 and in Hermosa it appears that prices are still rising into 2009. ( The numbers for Hermosa are somewhat misleading as the volume of sales was very low with some high ticket sales in the Sand and Valley sections... the July 2009 numbers seem more in line with the peak around 2006).


Currently it appears as if home prices in 2009 are hovering between 2004 and 2003 in North and South Redondo and El Segundo. In Manhattan Beach , home prices are between 2005 and 2004 levels. When you kick in July numbers Hermosa real estate prices are also around 2005 to 2004 levels. Overall median price declines for all the Beach Cities seem to be averaging somewhere between 21%-25% from their respective peaks.



So what does the future look like for home prices in the South Bay-Beach Cities? Truthfully, my crystal ball started acting funny around 2006 and has never been the same since... but my guess is that we will see prices continue to slide over the next 6-9 months. Whether the slide is large or on the small side will depend on what happens in the economy. If the economy is truly seeing a bit of light at the end of the tunnel, with the prospect of the recession winding down before the end of the year, then prices will probably not fall much more then 7%-10%. But if the recession hangs on and moves into fields occupied by upper income folks then you can expect to see home prices falling at least 10% and perhaps as much as 20%. However I don't think you are going to see the low entry level prices drop much more. I believe that end of the market in all the Beach Cities will be relatively flat with the possible exception of older North Redondo townhomes that were built in the late '70's and early '80's.


Here's what I'm seeing... Banks are getting very tough not only on standards for a borrower but also on the appraised value assigned to the property purchase. Fewer comps in the higher end of the market means lower appraised values, which translates to unhappy buyers and sellers and deals that fall apart. It also translates to overall lower comparable sales or sliding prices. Sellers can't throw out a number they "want" or "need" and expect buyers or appraisers to go along without supporting data.


Buyers are not only being very choosy about condition and location but they are sticking to their guns about price. They have the luxury of time on their side and will walk from a property they feel is overpriced if the seller refuses to negotiate. On the other hand they will often bid higher on one they deem to be undervalued if there is a multiple offer situation. However they won't be stampeded into a purchase if they suspect they are being manipulated by a seller. All of these conditions happening together are part of the forces that are pushing prices lower.


I believe home prices over the $2M in the Beach Cities are going to start moving downward. Historically this area of the market has been very sticky as sellers don't necessarily "have" to sell. They can hold out for a higher price even though other sectors of the market are moving lower. We have a low rate of unemployment in the Beach Cities compared to other parts of the state. However in the last few months I'm seeing a number of buyers leaving the market because they have either lost their jobs or are concerned that they might. Many who own their own businesses are paring down as their companies struggle in the current economic malaise. Real Estate is not a oneway street and if buyers are having these issues, you can bet there are a number of homeowners who are also facing uncertain economic times. If we begin to see more upper income folks in trouble then we can expect to see prices drop as many scramble to get out from under and maybe take a little cash with them. Lack of security is a great motivator even for the upper income set.


Foreclosures have not been a significant part of our market but you may see that change. Most of the homeowners in the South Bay-Beach Cities have managed to weather the current financial storm. However if the recession starts to affect the middle-upper income segment of the market then you can expect to see more foreclosures and short sales in the Beach Cities. These lower priced sales in turn lower overall prices for those who may not be in financial trouble. If we suddenly see a spate of foreclosures and/or a dramatic increase in short sales you will see a corresponding drop in prices. The Beach Cities are considered to be a declining market and appraisers don't care if the sale is a short sale, a foreclosure or regular sale when looking at sold comps... a sale is a sale.



On the bright side rates will probably continue to be low through the Spring. If prices continue to slide into the fall and winter, buyers just might get some pretty good deals before the end of the year. As a number of buyers found out this Spring that some of the best deals happened in the 4th quarter of last year and January and February of this year.



If you own your home and need to refinance I know BofA and very likely other lenders will have some new programs that might finally help folks who need to refinance. If you need to refinance call a reputable lender now. The FEDS have a number of programs that might actually be of help.

 
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27 Comments on Manhattan Beach- South Bay Beach Cities Real Estate.... where are prices headed

AUG
15
373,699 Points 63 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

Hi Kaye, How are you? Your ears must be burning as we had a little get together at the racetrack. Had fun. Thanks to Brian. Surely did miss seeing you. I got a new camera with a new powerful lens and did a bucket load of photos. Here is one the best ones I would have loved to share with you so here it is a day earlier than it will appear on my post tomorrow.

Before adding that photo, this analysis is supperb and I think right on the money. What I see in addition to what you have so wonderfully written here is that the markets will greatly vary city to city and state to state. But one thing is certain. The recovery will not progress until the Lenders are on board and get serious about lending again and making underwriting at least possible for those with decent credit and something to add, equity wise.

Till then, the recovery is more or less wealth based, meaning that most purchases are using pent up cash pulled from other investments. When the cash dries up, we actually won't have much of a market. Fannie and Freddie's limits are almost used up. FHA and VA have greatly expanded but could not absorb all conventional lending. Without Banks getting realistic I fear that for a very long time we can not progress too much further.

So nice to see on AR and you were so missed today. Here is the photo one day early, just for you.

12:43am • #1
832,394 Points 213 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Hit Router

This analysis could easily be applied to our luxury market in Northern Virginia and Maryland luxury areas. 

Sadly, even the wealthy will realize a significant loss of "asset value" before this is all over, which will eventually affect investment, consumer spending for luxury items and down this road paved with Dominos, jobs and GDP. 

 

5:14am • #2

Thank you Kaye.  You can easily apply this to the Chicagoland market as well.  In the southwest suburbs we do have significant foreclosure and short sale "comps".  Home values will continue to decline across the board.

Linda Metallo, Re/max Impact, Lockport, Il.

 

Linda Metallo, Re/max Impact
6:58am • #3
150,427 Points 4 Featured Posts

Oklahoma City is stable and appreciating. However, our high end has been affected by excess inventory, especially in new construction. Foreclosures are low at around 4%. What we don't have is a beach, and speaking as one from the center of the country, I value a beach city so the trend downward in beach cities surprises me. As a baby boomer, I will eventually move to a beach city, and I think in the next ten years you will see more of that, so I see your market with a long term upward trend.  

8:00am • #4
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I do have to say that some of my fondest memories are on those beaches.....it has been a long time but I miss California.  I am glad I missed the decline of the California markets........

8:41am • #5
254,758 Points 2 Featured Posts Hit Router

Hi Kaye -- Turbulent times indeed, no matter which interest is involved in a real estate transaction these days.

8:41am • #6
Hit Router

Very thoughtful analysis, and depressing to read, as a native Californian from So. Orange County.  I think I can apply that same reasoning to my area of NW Washington as we have not had many foreclosures, some short sales, and I think that will increase in the months to come.   It does seem all indicators point to more of the same.  I talked to a client of mine who is a consultant to bankers and he told me they are not lending now because rates are so low, they can't make any money. 

9:23am • #7

Hi Kaye. Your report is much appreciated. It also reflects what is happening in the Tampa Bay area as well. We are seeing some prices decrease 1% to 1.5% per month. We still have many foreclosures and short sales in our supply... and a long way to go.

9:55am • #8
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William- How lovely to hear from you and what a terrific photo you shared.  Seems like forever since I have seen you or Brian.  Maybe next time I'll try to get down and say HI...

I'm in total agreement that markets will vary city-city and even subarea-subarea with some parts of a community seeing more declines then others.  While I haven't thought of the recovery in wealth based terms you are correct... those who managed to weather the first part of the decline with cash in hand are finding some good real estate deals along with other opportunities that require cash.

 

Lenn- Interesting that this also applies to your area.  I wasn't sure whether or not is was simply a phenomena of our area as we had no seen much in the way of price declines until this year.  I absolutely agree with you that we will see further losses in all areas.  As my Mama notes... you can't spend your way out of debt... all you get is more debt.

P.S.  I love your new photo very chic!

Linda-  That's the intriguing aspect of our market... we are not seeing much in the way of foreclosures or short sales yet... so lots of folks want to discount them... but as you note they are part of the market and if the represent a large enough sector they can define the market.

 

Joe-  New construction was the beginning of the downward push on prices in our market.   This was the first place in our market where we saw short sales and foreclosures.  While we still don't have many of eithe,  the decline in prices caused by the movement in that market has spurred price declines in the mid range of the market.  Between 2007-2008  the median price in Manhattan Beach went up... however between 2008-2009 prices dropped 21%.   

No question the market will recover and probably push up higher in the long run... and yes... You will love living at the beach...

11:45am • #9
20 Featured Posts

Julie- The California real estate market seems to go through some form of price upheaval every 10 years or so... we are just on the down cycle.  You can count on prices going up once again although not as much as they did in the last cycle.. prices went up over 200% so a 30%-40% decline isn't as much as it may appear. 

Come back for a visit.. we still have some of the best beaches in the world....

Chris- This too shall pass... as I noted to Chris this is just part of the ongoing California real estate cycle.

Sandra- South Orange County was hit far harder then the South Bay.  Irvine and the surrounding areas were home to a number of financial institutions and when these guys got into trouble lots of folks lost their jobs which was bad news for the local real estate market in that neck of the woods.  It seems to me that the upper end of the market everywhere is about to get hit as the national and local economic problems work their way up the chain.

Lana- I have a  friend who moved to your area a few years ago.. definitely some changes in that market.  As I noted we are still not seeing many foreclosures or short sales but I do expect to see some distress in the upper end of the market.

11:58am • #10
1 Featured Post Outside Blog

Hi Kaye:

I grew up in Southern California and I remember the beach areas well.  I miss the beach.  You wrote a thoughtful and fact based synopsis of your market.  It had nothing to do with your crystal ball.  Do you have one you can lend me>    Mine's on the blink again.

12:04pm • #11
20 Featured Posts

Carol- Must be a product defect in those crystal balls... maybe we can send them back and get ones that actually work. 

I'll confess this is one time I would like to be wrong but I just can't shake the feeling that we are going to see more issues ahead in the upscale markets.  I know way too many people who are worried about not being as secure financially as they have always been... that's scary.

12:19pm • #12
278,642 Points 29 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

First of all, I have to tell you that I hung out in Hermosa and Manhattan Beach in High School and years later used to take my kids to Manhattan Beach.  LOVE it there!  This is a great analysis as it truly tells us where you are, where you have been and a pretty good idea of where you are headed.  Here in NC we didn't have the drastic price reductions but our higher end is in much the same position as yours.  Great job!

3:05pm • #13

Kaye,

The Naples market seems to be inching up.  We are fortunate to have a lot of cash buyers on the sidelines.  If only the stock market will be stable come Jan. That panics retirees more than anything and had a few leave the table last spring when it tanked. Typically after a downturn, Naples takes off quickly.  I am telling buyers to make aggressive offers NOW..Don't wait for reports that the market is turning.  Opportunity lost if you start reading about a upturn in the press.  Seems like we have similar markets. Not much in short sales and foreclosures.  However, the ARMs might be coming due this next year on some could be problematic. Stay tuned.  That is a real question mark.

Marcia Hawken
3:59pm • #14
20 Featured Posts

Diane... We miss you!! This is a wonderful place to live if you work in the LA area.. which is why prices always bounce back. The feedback on the high end seems to be fairly consistent no matter where you are located.

 

Marcia- It would be nice to see the stock market stabilize for a bit.. I think it would give folks more confidence.  Your advice to be aggressive is sound... there are deals to be made while rates are low in all segments of the market.  

If rates stay low there may not be many problems with ARM's coming due.. in many instances payments will actually be lower which could be a real help for the market.

5:38pm • #15
155,676 Points Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

Kaye,

Thanks for the update on my old home town,  I went to Mira Costa and still have many friends there.  Any properties by the ocean will have there ups and downs in the market.  Right now as you pointed out with people losing there jobs, or they were holding to many properties in there portfolios.  It is time to unload some properties.  Then with the short sales blowing comps out the back, it becomes real interesting.  In Wailea we are actually seeing a few short sales in the $2 to $3million dollar range.  There is still a lot of shaking to take place.  The good news is oceanfront areas always come back and strong.  Nice article and thanks for the update.

Steve

8:11pm • #16
AUG
16
20 Featured Posts

Steve-  Wow.. I'm amazed at all the Realtors who are from MB or have spent lots of time here...

I agree that ocean property will always hold value over the long run. My Mom is on the Big Island Kona side and has watched the value of her home plunge.. so am not surprised at short sales on expensive homes in Wailea... I suspect that many of those homes are second homes and sadly those will always be the first to be let go..

12:26am • #17
2 Featured Posts

Hi Kaye,

Great set of data.  Any chance you can put it in a graphical form?  It is a lot easier to digest that way.

Being in the beach area, you've _only_ seen a loss in value of 30-40%.  We have some areas in San Diego County that have hit 75% decline in value.  But, like you, our beach areas have still held their value reasonably well.

4:16am • #18
2 Featured Posts

Oh, and ask William about that speck on the horse's rear.  He tells me it is a fly!  :-D

4:17am • #19
344,667 Points 5 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Neat complete report than gives us a snap shot on your area, where you list, market, sell real estate.

10:42am • #20
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Hi Kaye - so good to hear from you and read your thoughtful analysis, as is always your style. As William said, the gathering was small but we have fond memories of 2 years ago. And we talked...nicely...about you! :)

It's pretty likely that we will see much more change at the higher end of the market before things start to trend up in general, and who can be sure how long that will be. The shifts in our market here have mostly been at the lower end, which is to be expected.

Jeff

11:23am • #21
244,918 Points 9 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

Kaye -- I found myself nodding in agreement as I read your analysis of the South Bay real estate market.  As you might imagine, it aptly applies to the Palos Verdes market.  Our entry level homes are in demand; the high-end is stagnant.  However, August is producing a few more pending sales in the upper prices.

12:40pm • #22

Great data and thanks for pulling it all together.  Before this all plays out I think your data (in some form) will fall into place coast to coast and all around -- unfortunately.

Yes, I agree that Lenn's new photo is "tre chic".

Sue

12:45pm • #23
20 Featured Posts

Robert- Actually we have only seen prices decline between 20%-25% for all the Beach Cities... I tried  bar graphs and they can be dramatic but they just don't give as "clear" a picture as the form I finally settled on... I like these because you can read all the information.

If you are checking out flies on a horse's rear  you clearly have way too much free time... LOL

Andrew- Thank you

Jeff - I miss seeing you all too...will have to try and make one soon.

 Market shifts always start at the bottom as folks at this level usually have fewer resources when the economy shifts... The upscale market is generally the last to move downward and the first to pick up again.

Norma- We are also seeing the upper end moving a bit more... the ones that seem to be moving are properties in A++ locations, those that are priced at or slightly below market and those that have had some major price cuts from the original listed price.  I would love to see some stability enter the market before the end of the year.

Sue- Sure seems to be a trend in most of the upscale markets based on what I'm hearing.  The big question is whether the slide in value when it hits will be small or large

1:39pm • #24
AUG
17
Outside Blog

wow do I have a lot to learn!

9:32pm • #25
AUG
18
20 Featured Posts

Tim- All it takes is time and persistence.. LOL

1:42am • #26
AUG
27
Outside Blog

Hi Kaye. Your report is much appreciated. It also reflects what is happening in the Home Inspection Industry. While I have seen increases of 25% this year. I do know of many home inspectors that are going out of business forever.I do hope to be able to work with you soon.

Happy Selling.

David Salvato Founder

David Home Inspection Services

10:42am • #27

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Manhattan Beach CA/ e-PRO..... Kaye Thomas...

Manhattan Beach, CA

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Real Estate West

Address: 905 Manhattan Beach Blvd, Manhattan Beach, CA, 90266

Cell Phone: (310) 721-7438

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