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What Does "Bait and Switch" Blogging Say About You?

Driving traffic to your site, should not be done simply for the ego of the numbers. EVERYTHING that we do on our blogs relflects on how we will likely operate out in the world as agents.

The true purpose of a blog is not simply to provide content people may like to read, like a magazine. It is to give the reader a glimpse at who you are and how you think.

For this reason, I DO NOT and DID NOT tell Kevin to...trick people into going to his site outside of Active Rain by saying "READ MORE... Last night I saw a comment on Ines' article asking WHY they had to go someplace else to read the full article. When I first started seeing Apprentices posting "teaser ads" to drive traffic to their new "outside" blogs, I questioned why I was not giving Kevin that advice. Were my "standards" holding him back?

To me, articles that lead the reader someplace else to get what they really came for, are mirroring a BAIT AND SWITCH mentality. "I know you came here for THIS, but I WANT you to come over HERE to my own purpose. What YOU want has therefore become secondary to what I want. I want to drive traffic to my new blog...so I'm teasing you with this great headline and story and FORCING you to come where I WANT you to go, by baiting you here and then switching you there."

Doesn't the whole concept of BAIT AND SWITCH turn you off? Of course it does. So why would someone put bait and switch tactics into their blogging strategy? It boggles my mind. Sure, maybe you will win the competition by dragging numbers over to your blog...but what does it say about you? How does it show the consumer public that you are in it for them and their goals, and not you and your goals?

If your blogging blatantly "uses" tactics to get the reader to do what YOU want them to do, might not a consumer read into that effort that you may also be willing to drag them to the property that better suits the agent's needs rather than theirs? Think about that.

Don't think for a minute that the consumer isn't smart enough to know "link bait" when he sees it. Credibility is key. Link baiting will cause you to lose credibility among your readers and prospective clients. Other Active Rain people may think it is cool and smart, but the general public will read it for what it is...LINK BAIT!

P.S. The third paragraph of this post demonstrates the appropriate way to link to other sites. The links are part of the story, and the reader can go there or not, and does not NEED to go there to read and comprehend this article. The links are "extra" reading to demonstrate the point. Not bait links.

Posted by ARDELL DellaLoggia on 06/13/2007 05:05 PM

Comments (278)

278 Comments on What Does "Bait and Switch" Blogging Say About You?

JUN

2007

I don't agree. Many of us are developing "outside blogs" that in effect are our main focus. Part of what we want to do is drive traffic there, not keep it here, because it is a different audience. It would be bait and switch if we promised something and did not deliver it at all. To request one more click is not the same thing. It would make no sense to have duplicate content with separate audiences.

Further, at times I may want to blog a bit about something but there's lots more information on one of my (many) websites. It seems reasonable to me to offer the "more" feature there too.

I saw several posts that used this technique. I had considered it but now reading this point of view I am glad I did not do that. We do have to be cautious of how we carry ourselves...even on the internet. You only have one time to make a first impression on others and that is true for our blog as well. GOOD POST!

Mary,

Part of what you say is true. I have at times linked to my site from RCG when the material on my blog went into MUCH greater detail and would not make sense as a Rain City Guide post.

But I think that happened fewer times than I can count on my one hand in a year and a half, NOT every other article. Trust me. It's link baiting. Listen or don't. Your choice.

I don't agree ... I think that it is a smart backup system. Our goal isn't to be kings and queens of ActiveRain it is to drive leads to US... to our websites and our personal blogs. It is to get searches to find US, not our comment on your blog... it is to find OUR unique value proposition.

if we weren't trying to get people to find US but to find ActiveRain then why would we even have personal sites?

With all due respect, I have to disagree. The whole purpose of a blog in my mind is to build your business. If that means driving traffic to my site or to where I feel a potential client may do business with me then so be it. If spending time on a message board or on Active Rain (or any other site for that matter) is not going to help me grow my business then what is the point?

In retrospect, a bait and switch as you call it would only hold true if the services I say I provide are not the services my client receives. If my business plan includes free handouts to potential clients only to see them go with another agent then I might as well hang it up right now.

Too your success,

Jeff

http://www.agenthill.com/

Thanks Kimberly,

It's all about intent. If the intent is to drive traffic elsewhere...it's link bait.

When a blogger is saying "MORE HERE..." and linking to another one of their sites 70% of the time, hard to justify that the intent was NOT to bait and switch.

David,

You make my point. You are saying it is all about you and what you want the reader to do. That's OK. Just know that the consumer knows that too, and will judge you accordingly.

BETTER to write some complementary and different articles to demonstrate your AR blog post point, and link to all of these articles on the other blog, than to post an incomplete version of the same article.

Same net effect...better integrity to the piece and the public perception.

Unless I'm asked to register at the new site or pay for the additional information, what's one more click. Who cares. Frankly, from an AR perspective, I get to see what others are doing on their other BLOG sites. That's helpful.

Jeff,

Linking to something else, like a handout piece, is entirely appropriate as long, as the article with the link is a stand alone post and the handout is in ADDITION to the article.

The article must offers something of value without the links. The links should be icing...not the cake.

Gregory,

I learned the term LINK BAIT from consumers, not inside professionals. Heed or don't. They perceive it as a tactic that reduces your credibility.

What agents like is not the point. It's how the consumer perceives your TACTICS and translates that into how you will treat THEM as a client.

Ardell

I have to agree with you. I have encountered this many times and being honest I wasn't thrilled with the prospect of having to go somewhere else to finish the story. I think that is the litmus test, if I don't like it what will readers think?

I guess I am kind of a slow learner. I have never used "link bait" as a technique to drive traffic to my other blog. Don't think I will but obviously there are several sides to opinions on this topic.

At best, it works like the 5 second commercial during the day about a topic on the news at 11. Forces you to want to stay awake and watch it. But DO you???

Ardell, I'm so glad that you posted this. I have to agree with you, and when my partner posts stuff that ORIGINATES on our web site and SENDS it to AR (the dance?) he does exactly that- follow the link. While I didn't view it when I noticed it as "bait and switch", I definitely thought that it was...inconvenient. Microscopically, and HUGELY, it reverses to our agenda and for me, somehow diminishes the post. Vaguely. Now that it's clearer, I'm going to insist on the full version without a "to read more" or whatever it says... THANKS!

Gary,

If one blog's total focus is different than the other, and the blog posts on each blog platform are complete without the link, then it is an effective and appropriate use of a link.

Some links are correct, some are link bait. INTENT is the key. If the INTENT is to drive traffic to another site, then it is incorrect.

If the intent is to provide a lot more detail on the topic, that is complete in and of itself in the original article, then it is OK. The INTENT must be to the benefit of the consumer and not the agent...same as in real life!!!

Is the intent Consumer-Centric or Agent-Centric????

Those who answered "of course it's all amout ME!" prove my point.

Ardell,

I agree with your point(s). To me some of the disagreement here is semantics. Yes we want to gain exposure. As you pointed out links are fine. The difference as I see it is the amount of information provided. Catchy Headline - Catchy first/ one sentence - more here link, is nonsense. Providing a catchy summary or "treatment" with a link to detail, or ones site may be more acceptable.

To me, and to most of the public observing, bait and switch blogging is like:

1) Showing a buyer client two ugly properties, and then YOUR listing, to make yours look best and hope they buy it.

2) Showing a buyer client two properties in their price range, and then one for more money, hoping they like it best so you make a higher commission.

If that is how you work, then bait and switch blogging is an accurate representation of who you are and how you work.

Ardell I understand your point BUT I am not aware of any "rules of blogging" out there (there are no rules!) and it seems to me that it's not bait and switch if we give 'em what we promised (even if it is one more click). It would be bait and switch if we didn't provide it at all.

Would you also consider it bait and switch if the post ended up being multi-part and at the end of the post it said, "tune in tomorrow to get the rest of the story"? Seems like the same concept to me.

I'm so glad you brought this up.

Speaking for myself alone: I posted one original post on my home blog yesterday, two original posts here yesterday. I used the teaser method this way yesterday, um... 4 times? Why? Well, my home blog is for my home. I have very little reason to think anyone on AR would seriously want to know what is going on in Huber Heights OH. So. If I post here about TBR, I just want AR folks to know that I'm blogging, as in "Hey! I'm still alive and if you want to know all the exciting news in Huber Hts, then here's more." That's it.

I can only speak for myself, Ardell, but that's all there is to it. At this point, most outside-of-AR people are finding me through my home blog, not through AR. I'm simply posting here for those AR bloggers who might be curious about Dayton Ohio, or PB, or me. I posted these teasers on only a few small groups, so I'm not gunning for anything here. Also, I posted the teasers because when PB group round-up is posted, someone always comments, "Gosh, I didn't see these posts before, I have a lot of catching up to do". So. Again, I'm letting people know that things are being posted if they don't regularly check TheBrickRanch. I consider it a courtesy to folks following the contest.

And I try to give people enough information so that they can, at that point, decide whether or not they care to read more.

Having said all that, once the contest is over, you won't find me posting teasers at all as I don't like it myself.

Actually, when I first did that, the consumer public did read that as a "tactic", though that was not my intent at the time. I learn blogging "rules" from the public, because if the public views you as deceitful or trying to capture them to your purpose and not theirs, then that is an important concept to grasp and avoid.

Again Mary, do whatever. Just passing on what I have learned from consumers vs. marketers. If you are a "salesman" then by all means sell. If you are the type of agent that truly represents the client first and foremost, than reflect that in all the things you do with your blog. Intent is YOU...then just admit it and be done with the conversation.

Intent MUST be their education and benefit. Everything you do on your blog should be to provide transparency to the consumer public, whether they are your client or not. That is a blog. The primary function is Consumer-Centric writings and purpose.

They will choose you if you focus on them and not you. Baiting them to choose the site you WANT them to choose is the same as baiting them to buy the house YOU want them to buy. It's a logical conclusion...isn't it?

Ardell- while your point is well-taken, it is also possible that "bait and switch" blogging is sometimes the result of (blog ignorant) entrants into the forum, who in order to get up and running, follow the normal link, link, link advice. Another "not seeing the forest for the trees" error- I don't work in either of the ways indicated above, as I'm sure others don't, but missed the trees. Hope others learn from that.

Sorry, but I still don't agree. It's a matter of giving them the content. If they wanted to see the house on 123 Main Street, would it necessarily matter if I showed it to them before or after another house on the "tour"? I just don't think so - as long as I do show it to them. I don't think there is the slightest shred of deceipt involved - we are talking about one click here, that's it. I do not see it as a "big deal" at all, but simply a way to introduce folks to my "main" site (which is not the one on AR) by letting them know what's being discussed over there. It's a promotion. Period. If the subject matter doesn't intrest them, they won't follow the link. That is straightforward.

Mary- if the subject DOES interest them, why should they be re-directed? I'd rather read a blog that I find interesting in its entirety. That one extra step while I'm enjoying it- now I'm redirected- like an ad on tv while my favorite show is on- annoying. My partner and I obviously disagree- he takes your position- but it is a method of redirecting that's not in sync with the blogging intention.

Mary,

This quote from you says it all "It's a promotion. Period." Correct. It's not a blog post. It's a promotion. Period. It's LINK BAIT.

Ardell -

I have to agree with you on this one. Even though I have lead people over to another blog, I don't like it. It bothers me that I start reading in one spot and then have to hit a link to finish reading it in another website spot! I know that many of us are starting second and third blogs and use the read more link to switch from one place to another just because we don't have a lot of blog content to go between them all.

Glad that you brought the subject up for discussion.

Ardell, way to open up a can of worms. I agree with both sides, Some of AR's best and most prolific bloggers use this tactic repeatedly. They are the golden boys and girls and seem to get away with it. It does drive up their points and does redirect to the personal blogs. I've even seen several get featured posts because of it.

In one sense I like the "link bait". It gives a teaser that I can follow if I want. In one sense, AR does it under Blogs. We get 2-3 sentances and a headline to entice readers to click through. But I would rather have a summary then just the 1st paragraph. Give me the bullet points and a link amnd if I want more I'll go there. I'm also not sure it's right to get 200 points or a feature. Features should only come for origional content 1st appearing on AR.

I recently read that duplicate content isn't a real issue, the search engines just track where it was posted first. So fear of search engine penalty isn't valid. How much it helps to link back to your own article is hard to say. I would think it would help just as much to say "Here is an article that I recently posted on my other blog www.LarrySpeaksHisMind.com(not real), I thought it appropriate to post it here as well." or "here is a summary of it. If you want to see it in it's entirety here's the link.

I've even seen several bloggers link back to websites they belong to giving credit to the site... and getting good comments from AR for material that they didn't author, provide reflection on or anything other then give a couple of teaser paragraphs.

On the other hand, you are right. Is it really blogging or marketing? Fortunately, or unfortunately, in most cases, AR and Localism gets us further up the search engines rankings then our own sites. This gives an added incentive to put material on AR with the desire to drive them to our own website.

The challenge is to do it in a way that doesn't seem cheap or tacky and that builds trust in our potential clients and fellow AR members.

Ardell,

I respectfully disagree with you. My business blog has been developed for the consumers benefit. Active Rain is one of many conduits to introduce consumer traffic to that blog and to build a consumer base. What you say would be true if your main blog were on Active Rain or Rain City Guide or whatever venue you choose. My business is driven by my website and my business blog. While I do incorporate relevant links into the body of my posts to custom pages on my website and to posts on my business blog, using a re-direct is acceptable practice.

To be polite, it is best if a re-direct opens in a new window so that the reader can continue reading on the site they were re-directed from.

It is not dirty business or a bait and switch to re-direct web traffic. It is common and acceptable business practice. Are they being re-directed because I want them to be? Absolutely, I am running a business. If and when the readers become my client they are my only priority. But readers are potential business, not clients, and my blog is my business.

As far as dragging numbers to my blog by re-directing, let me say this. I get a lot of hits from Active Rain and Localism on my business blog. Most of these hits are from the real estate community and will never turn into business for me. If I were dependent on these hits, my blog and my business would fail miserabley.

In the short 4.5 months that my business blog has been operational my search engine traffic has sky-rocketed. This is where the bulk of my traffic comes from. My traffic is doubling weekly.

The redirects have created regular readers who have bookmarked my blog, I know that because I can track that on my blog statistics area. I also know where every single one of my readers come from.

Re-directs are good business.

Ardell:

With all the respect in the world....don't you think bait and switch are strong words?

Personally the blogs I've seen that have links to outside blogs tell a portion of the story and if you are interested it is your option to click on the link and go for the gusto (the remainder of the article)... but if it's not interesting to me I usually don't click. :)

Bait and switch is something I would more closely identify to.... let's say a used car lot advertises you can buy a car for .99 down..... and then when you get there you discover all kind of stipulations to acquire a car for .99 down OR that there are no cars left for .99 down.

Here's how Wikipedia describes Bait and Switch

Fran I think you hit the nail on the head, which is why it rubbed me the wrong way.

That said, as my mother used to say, "that's what makes horse racing". I would never expect to agree with everyone's opinion about web marketing, blogging, or anything else.

It's interesting to me that most people feel strongly one way or the other about this issue. Perhaps that's because "bait and switch" is so strong a term? Or maybe not. Maybe it's just that blogging is new to all of us and we're all still learning as we forge new paths. Dialogue is good.

LOL,

It's link bait guys. Disagree all you want. It's called link bait...bait and switch. Do it if you want, but call it what it is when you do it.

Kansas City...correct...used car salesman tactics. Do we really want to sent that message?

Laurie: You're the queen of SEO!!! And you are absolutely correct that driving AR traffic to the outside blog is not necessarily something an agent wants to do.

Mary...learn what the term "link bait" means, and then decide to do it...or not. But if you do "link bait" then say OK...I choose to "link bait".

This is a GOOD example of how the public feels about LINK BAIT, like you are sending out a hook and they are a fish!

It accomplishes the objective and puts you in the same boat as a used car salesman. Is that what you REALLY want?

As to "bait and switch" being too strong a term...it is called link bait for a reason...because you bait and switch.

Since the competition started, so many are now ALWAYS link baiting, that it has gotten totally out of hand. I go to most Apprentices AR blogs and find post after post of link baiting.

Is that really something we Coaches want to see become the norm? AR blogs not being blogs at all, but link bait to elsewhere? AR the Link Bait Center of the Blogosphere?

As I'm interpreting this (and sensed myself), the bait and switch begins when, in responding to your blog, a reader connects to your words about (example) foreclosure. As they read, interested, there is an **INTERRUPTION** and the blog which they've chosen to continue reading appears on a self promotion page, as ALL real estate websites are. While there may be a blog, there are also contact numbers, properties, etc. The intimacy achieved in the blog is now in your (my, our) arena, and not in the arena that focused on the consumer, and from which the consumer sought advice, information, or whatever from the blog. The article baited the reader to read; the article switched from their agenda to yours:exposure to your website. Admittedly, a harder concept to grip unless you've done it, and had a moment of discomfort over it. The idea of the blog was to focus on the consumer; it ends by focusing on your business.

Ardell- I am NOT an seo queen, just because optionsrealtysellshousesinriverheadjames-oops. :) (you can delete this one- who am I kidding, giving you "permission" : ))

David---

In reference to your comment: ....'ActiveRain it is to drive leads to US... to our websites and our personal blogs..'

I'm not in AR for any reason except to learn and inform (if I can).

It is interesting how revealing these comments are about how people really view AR.

I am a link baiter.

My business blog is designed to be consumer focused.

My AR blog is a template that is hardly consumer focused.

I know that I am enhancing the experience of my reader by sending them to my business blog.

If they were enticed to read what I have to say in an excerpt and find it worth the effort to click to my business blog then they will also now have the benefit of experiencing similarly enticing content that has been organized for the consumer. The intent is to educate, and I want my articles to bait readers to what I consider to be the best resource for their education on the topics I deliver.

This scenario paints an entirely different picture than the line in the sand that Ardell drew here:
"How does it show the consumer public that you are in it for them and their goals, and not you and your goals?"

My audience comes from the bait I have chummed all over the internet. Never have I had one person tell me they felt conned, mislead or otherwise negatively pressured to spend time with the environment I have created for them.

Real Estate Tomato Guy- I found YOU from your site, and I love your site, and the site you made for us. However, if I'd been dinking around on AR, and happened on a blog which lead me to your site, I can't say that I would have called to have you start us up- and look what I would have missed!! It would have made me think "Eh- just a guy soliciting business" instead of, "SEAN, CALL HIM AND SIGN UP RIGHT NOW".

Ardell- great discussion. This time I actually followed your links. Didn't bother the first time, guess I'm not easily hooked. Thanks for the link love.

I read the 'link bait' links and I don't agree with the leap you've made from link bait to what is going on here. I agree it's not the best way to post, but link bait would appear to be something different. This is a RE network directing people from one RE professional's blog to another specific RE blog. The people who click over know exactly what they are getting.

But you still bring up an interesting point and I wish more coaches would chime in here. I noticed that Dustin did this frequently, and Drew also I believe, Greg too perhaps, Jim as well, Fran? Looks like all the coaches except you and Jeff? It is interesting.

Jim,

Respect for the first line of your comment. I think what ARDELL largely is trying to say is the content should be the focus and not techniques/tricks. I'm sure everyone will come down on me for saying the word 'trick', but I used for lack of a better word. I listened to the Inman call the other day and I heard about 50% of the conversation about content (ghost stories, etc.) and 50% techniques/traffic (google analytics, stats etc.)

ARDELL'S point is good that content should be king. I see many, many apprentices posts on CREATING CONTENT AND BLOGGING---and those don't do anything to create readership OR CLIENTS.

Most of the discussions I am privvy to are about how to 'work' the system:

Link baiting

SEO

Google, etc.

It is evident that the contest is more and more being focused on techniques to help you win; win links, get stats and LESS to do about gaining readership, enlightening, helping.

Everyone has a different opinion and everyone will believe that they are right. I hate widgets, someone else loves them. You like link baiting, ARDELL doesn't.

The most interesting and impressive comment (for Greg Swann) that I heard on the INMAN conference was that all the coaches agreed that Greg Swann was the best writer; now that is something to take notice of. I am honest, I haven't really read blooghoundblog all that much, but now I am.

Wow, great perspectives!

For me I have to say that as long as the link opens up a new window, I'm ok with it. That way it's easy to go back to what I was doing.......I personally don't mind checking out other people's sites as I learn alot that way.

I think this might be a matter of preference and what the consumer wants to learn or take away from the experience. If it ends up producing a good outcome, that's all that matters. If the consumer is annoyed or turned off then you may not have accomplished what you were after!

Laurie,

Where on the RET do you feel that I am soliciting business? It is purposefully designed to be incredibly resourceful and not retail. Even the cereal box is just a subtle hint that I may be able to help you along...heck it's cereal.

All 275 articles are free, I don't accept any advertisers, and never ask anyone of their contact info to access anything on it. I'm surprised that the resource you could have stumbled upon had you found me on AR would have come across as an attempt to make you my client. Maybe I need to rethink the presentation some...

PS - You and Sean are doing a fantastic job since I kicked him out of the nest.

Ok, so let common sense prevail in this thread. Here is the scenario:

You are reading an article that interests you and you are totally getting into it, ok? You see the 'more here' link, right:

What are your thoughts:

1. Wow, I love this

2. eeh---ok I'll click the article is interesting

3. Wow, I hate this

I can tell you NO ONE is going to pick number 1! Right? So, if knowing that two and three are the obviously and most probable thought, ARDELL would be right.

Those links ARE self-serving and do not provide the reader with ANY benefit.

So---logic (NOT MY OPINION) tells me that ARDELL is right, like it or not.

Jim- that's the point- your site was so phenomenal, unsolicited, that we had to have YOU. It doesn't solicit. But if you posted anything intimating improvement in blogs (still a work in progress- I know) on AR, and I then had to finish the article on your site, I'm not sure I'd have looked at you as being as unique as you are, because a part of me would have immediately thought, "selling me something"! :) AND, don't change a thing on the site- it's what got us a great site of our own.

I couldn't disagree more. I would completely second both Laurie Manny's and Tomato Man's opinions. As one who is occasionally guilty of said practice, I also take offense at being labeled a "bait & switcher." Bait & Switch carries with it a very negative connotation of fraud and deception. Your suggestion that this term applies to people who use 'teaser' posts to direct readers to their 'other' blog is wrong and grossly misleading. For the ActiveRain platform, I think it's healthy for our members to venture out into the greater blogosphere, and to experience these 'other' sites. But that's simply my own opinion. To each their own.

Kevin - we've actually covered this ground before on several occasions. You'll find the lines pretty well divided between all 3 viewpoints. There is no right or wrong when it comes to this issue.

Mary

Certainly there aren't any rules BUT there are 'best practices' and 'etiquette', no?

Maybe there should be a etiquette post or a 'Code of Ethics', Mary?

You got me.... I blog for business... and not just to educate those that come to AR to be enlightened.

Now isn't a link on the page to come and enjoy everything I have organized for your benefit (and hopefully, in some cases, mine) better than turning every article (full text) into a mini website so that I can be sure to expose my worth beyond the words?

So, someone reads a great article I was fortunate to have pieced together comprehensively, and now I need to be concerned if anyone is going to 'hunt me down' to see if by chance I may offer a service connected to the perceived wisdom I sling?

When we blog on topic, relevant to our consumers' interests, we blog for business, not altruism. The environment that best develops that model is the one that has been organized for the consumers' education and development.

Newspapers and magazines have been sending us to the backpages to finish an article since their inception. Why the need to drag harmless marketing out into the arena and stone it now? If write something you want to read, should I really make sure you don't have to lift a finger to click your mouse? Man, all that work, and you won't click - must not have been that good of an article in the first place. I think it will work itself out. Value is as value is perceived.

There is nothing that can be written that would have me choose the alternative:

"here's the whole article" - come and hunt me down if you were interested in learning more about the services I might offer. Or worse, here's an advertisement in the middle of the text showcasing my services.

If you have the motivation and time to blog for blogging sake, and are not someone who is blogging for business - then yes, Ardell is right. Otherwise, we call this marketing... and it's not such a bad thing.

Rich

If there were to be a 'focus group' on it (which ALL BIG/Fortune 50 companies do) I can assure you that there WOULD BE a right and a wrong. I have only been in AR for two months--so this is NEW ground to ME, sorry.!

Wow you sure know how to get a crowd going!!!

Is there a policy that says that type of blogging is not allowed? I am new to AR and to blogging. To me it would seem OK to post a link as long as it is obviously a link but the READ MORE thing would just bug me.

Read More... LOL

Do the right thing, Rey "Steak Dinner" Gallegos

Jim you are completely correct! 100%.

I respect you for saying what we all are thinking. It is ok to market---and not a problem. What ARDELL is saying that someone might be turned off by it---I'm sure you can with agree with that.

See Rey's comment proves my point. SOME people may not like it.

Kevin,

Yep...And I am willing to take my chances. AR accounts or 14% of my daily traffic... in a numbers game that means it accounts for a % of the services I have provided.

Kevin, my real point is just that is many or most of the coaches are proposing that we use the AR blog to bring traffic to our outside blog, obviously a lot of folks do NOT have an issue with it (and I don't either). If the gods at AR and Inman thought it was a problem, they'd have nixed it when the contest began, IMHO.

I think this is a whole lot of bruhaha over nothing.

But, it HAS been an enlightening discussion, and for that I'm thankful. Ardell sure knows how to start a discussion.

And again, some don't mind, and others click through quite regularly. There is no right and wrong. Ardell is entitled to her opinion, which I totally respect. But she is NOT right.

My opinion is that if you provide a complete thought BEFORE the link, then it isnt baiting. it is providing additional info elsewhere

besides, i just heard that if i eat a popular breakfast cereal i could die, so i have to go log onto abc.com to get the rest of the story.....

Jim

I was so agreeing with you until your last comment. Remember you sell services to agents (and there is nothing wrong with that). It is like me being in WEBSITE with 30,000 BUYERS. I would take that traffic too!That is different. You can't lose here in AR!

Great posting - of course people care about points in AR - but if you don't really offer meaningful posts in your blog - then those visiting your blog will figure it out pretty quickly

Mary

There was a thread about a month ago that AR risks being banned (whether true or not) from google because they could be viewed as a link farm. I so can't find that post.

I see both sides of this. If is see a blog that at first glance is an advertisement, I will skip on by it. I don't blog much because I like to have something of value to say - not just meaningless dribble as I have seen from time to time. I have found that people (potential clients) read your blog posts to find out more about you. I recently acquired a client who thoroughly researched my blogs and the comments that I would make. He liked what he saw and is now a client. If I was just trying to advertise myself, I probably wouldn't have gotten very far with this client.

Michael

No one in here is chatting about points.

Hi ARDELL:

So, were you baiting and switching us to prove YOUR point by linking all of those bait and switch ads toyour blog? Leading us to another blog that leads us to another blog...the possibilities are endless and mind bending. :-)

No, seriously though. There's a negative connotation to the term "bait and switch". Have you ever had an open house in a spectacular location, just HOPING that you could pick up some great buyers that day? If your ONLY intention was to represent the Seller and get that one house sold, then you weren't baiting and switching, but if you were hoping to pick up some buyers...you are guilty of the old bait and switch, too. Same with flyers in the box and sign calls...

What I was saying is that people shouldn't be deceptive about it. If you want people to visit your site, ask them to. If you content on this site is that good I would be more than happy to hear what you have to say on another site. By the way, there is not enough room hear to type the rest of my statement CLICK HERE to read more

Also, that would be a shame if AR became known as a link farm.

Do the right thing, Rey "Steak Dinner" Gallegos

Lania,

GREAT POINT!!!!!!! Realtors sometimes leave there signs up after the house is sold. Why? I am not trying to call anyone out on this but its true!

Do the right thing, Rey "Steak Dinner" Gallegos

I would love to find that link farm post.. Does anyone remember it?

I send people to my "other" blog on occasion because I don't want exact duplicates. Sometimes I have a post that I want on both blogs. To keep from getting the mirror site tag I do the "read more" issue.

I also do it on occasion because I want the non-real estate agent reader to know there are two different blogs I author. And while they do have some overlapping themes and posts they are different blogs.

As far as artificial "hit" numbers...I really don't care. The number I care about is closings. How many of those did I have?

This is a pretty emotional issue for some people.

As a reader... Here's what I do not like to see when I am reading a blog. I hate to see a teaser article. For example I see a post that has part of the content here on A/R and then you have to click a link to go to another site to finish reading that same article. Half (more/less) of the article here and half in another spot. It just annoys me to no end. I hardly ever click the 'contiue' link. I just usually stop reading, unless it is just an 'exceptional' piece - which is pretty rare.

I do however like having links in articles and supporting information that may lead me to other places etc. The surfing part of links. But to split up one article between more than one site just seems annoying to me.

Kevin,

AR generates an ungodly number of unique visitors that are not members. The silent majority. Google has them showing up for just about anything real estate related - I'm so envious...

My point, sure - there is a membership of real estate professionals here, the audience is much wider than that. The articles that are being produced by the agents/members are being found and read by your consumer - that's the whole idea, right?

So - a % of your traffic from AR should be your consumer. And that being the fact, doing a little marketing to them in the form of a 'continue reading' link will be effective.

Ardell...

I am parking 'to learn' and 'to read' all of the comments as they come in. Thanks :)

TLW...ROAR!

Leaving the sign up is a great analogy- how does a prospective buyer feel when they call, and oops, it's SOLD...same thing- not what the consumer expected- that uneasy feeling of having been "duped". Much more subtle on blog switching, but same idea- a bad taste is a bad taste.

Ardell - as much as I got a little steemed reading your post, I do see where you are coming from but I have to tell you that I discussed this with many Active Rainers months ago before I even started my outside blog. Many of us were questioning if there was a right way or wrong way to do this. We discussed including blurbs of those posts to take you to your "other blog", we discussed writing short excerpts or summaries with just a link, not a "read more", we even discussed not driving traffic there at all and I think a lot of us agreed that although our other blog had a different audience, it would be nice to get the support of our AR friends.

The "Bait & Swith" concept comes from offering one thing and selling another - it's about deceipt, it's a form of false advertisement. Here's Wikipedia's definition "In retail sales, a bait and switch is a form of fraud in which the fraudster lures in customers by advertising a product or service at an unprofitably low price, then reveals to potential customers that the advertised good is not available but that a substitute is. The goal of the bait-and-switch is to convince some buyers to purchase the substitute good as a means of avoiding disappointment over not getting the bait, or as a way to recover sunk costs expended to try to obtain the bait. It suggests that the seller will not show the original product or product advertised but instead will demonstrate a more expensive product."

There is no deception in taking people to a different place - it's telling them....I like being here, but here's my REAL BLOG. I discussed this with Laurie, with Rich and with many other bloggers in the blogosphere.

As for forcing readers to go somewhere where they don't want to go, it's as easy as a reader not choosing to go there. I personally enjoy visits from my AR friends on my Miamism blog and hope they keep coming.

I actually like it. I enjoy visiting outside blogs and for me it's a great way to get there.

Ines--

If you have created something of interest, what she is saying that you MAY be losing people who don't like or want to click -through.

I know everyone in here is giving hard and true definitions of bait and switch to prove her wrong. Ok, ok so 'bait n switch' isn't the correct word. Ardell is theatrical. What she is saying is completely right, though.

It isn't optimum for the reader to have to click somewhere else to finish reading something that they were interested in.

Also, the reality is you are trying to create 2 posts out of one. No one has mentioned that.

Thanks and appreciate your POV. Must admit, and only out of saving time, we have recently posted neighborhood updates here in AR with links back to our outside blog to the information. Truth is the information is deep, lengthy and not easily put into AR format w/out having to re-do it. Need to figure out how to do this and still stay within what's acceptable in the AR community. Really do appreciate what you are saying and it's helpful.

LOL,

Cronin's out of the closet!!! Hello, I'm Jim from the Real Estate Tomato...and I AM a link baiter...

OK - we agree on Ardell's "theatrics" and she definitely used the wrong term "bait and switch" - but it IS called "link bait" and if we reference Ardell's example again:

This is a GOOD example of how the public feels about LINK BAIT, like you are sending out a hook and they are a fish!

We can read that there is a right and a wrong way to do this - to tease a reader with something and then redirect them to something completely different is WRONG - to let them know that they have a choice of reading the rest of the article somewhere else, is not.

I do see the point that some readers may be annoyed by that, and that's something each of us has to think about and decide for ourselves if it matters or not.

As for creating 2 posts out of one, don't agree at all - that's the whole point of link bait - for those of us who want all of our quality posts in one place.

Angie---

As a reader is right!

Jeez,

Just got back from an appointment and this place looks like a FOOD FIGHT on Animal House!!! LOL Trying to catch up.

My opinion is follow this link for the rest of my comment

Kevin - Angie has an opinion, a viewpoint. It doesn't make it right. Let's just establish that up front, okay?

Angie - I am curious. What specifically 'annoys' you about 'teaser' posts? If the link opens up into a separate window, what's so difficult about clicking through? How much content does the article have to have before it is no longer a 'teaser' post? If I write several paragraphs of valuable content, but put a link at the bottom saying "Find more helpful resources here," is that annoying? Just trying to understand your feelings.

Jim Cronin doesn't sell real estate.

What I am saying is that REAL ESTATE AGENTS should not link bait, as it's like my mother's old line:

"Don't be what they call you!"

Credibility is the GOAL of every Real Estate Agent Blogger.

Credibility SUFFERS when you use sales type tactics to bait them here and swithch them to there = bait and switch.

If you are selling high stats...by all means, bait and switch. IF however, you are reperesnting people in their most valuable asset, then bait and switch techniques should be avoided.

LOL Tom Burris!! You are a CARD!!!

No. I didn't click it :)

Gary,

Within reason, I do think that is the correct use of links. If you did it for say 5% to 10% of your AR posts, I think that would be OK.

What I'm starting to see is 4 out of 6 or 8 out of 10 posts be link bait. That's a bit overboard, don't you think?

Ines,

Google "link bait" and you will see that there has been much discussion regarding changing this term because while it DOES describe what you are doing, it has a negative connotation.

What I am trying to point out is that the TERM LINK BAIT is the public's view of it, so asking other agents, other bloggers, other web people, other anyone except the consumer public, is not going to help you.

It is the consumer who says "agent who baits me equals agent who will screw me" that you have to worry about.

Tom has the idea, boy have you gererated some response, I can look at it both ways, being the libra that I am. But I think I would prefer to have it all in one place, and not have to go to lots of links to find more info. Interesting they say to keep things concise (whoever they are) and not to much info on one page, so if we have a lot to say link on.

I would agree, that for the purposes of the contest, the apprentices should have been instructed to publish their full article content on here.

Rich - don't even get me started because I was obviously penalized the first half of the contest for not having a site - now that I do have a site I am redirecting AR traffic....but if it was not for the competition, I would only do it ocassionally, just like you do.

Ardell

Once again another Woman on Active Rain for whom I will tip my hat. I know that doesn't mean diddlie squat to you since you don't know me..... but that is a huge complement... for which i don't hand out often. I applaud you for speaking your mind and your tone and not being afraid to stand by your words.

On the subject of the post... I don't know which way I feel.. I noticed alot of those "read more" at the end of blogs recently and wondering what the big deal was... quite frankly I couldn't be bothered most of the time to click them.

I want what I want when I want it... and that is usually "NOW". No clicks involved in that.... You got my vote!!!

Take note as I typed and thought it through I made my decision... thanks again for sharing and having a voice!

Jim,

Every AR blogger has a profile. How hard is it to find the business purposes of the blogger by staying in AR?

ARDELL, Very interesting. Personally I don't like teasers posts and rarely click through. I don't consider them 'bait and switch" though just more of a pain in the rear. Give me the info, don't make me go elsewhere to get it. But I can see the benefit it would have in driving traffic to your site if that's what you are looking to do. You may lose a few but I'm sure you will get a few as well. Let's face it we can't please everybody.

I just prefer to keep my post on AR in it's entirety. If the consumer finds me on AR they can click on my profile and find all the contact info they need. If they find me on brokerbryant.com they can find the same contact info there. I really don't need them to bounce back and forth.

I also think this is a matter of preference and that there is no definitive right or wrong way. Blogging is truly not that complicated. Write good stuff. Post it. And get business. A caveman can do it. The key to it all is good informative AND entertaining content that keeps folks coming back and wanting more. And you best know what you are talking about.

Thanks Desiree. We all know when we are being conned and sold to...don't we?

Does anyone sit through those darned flip chart presentations anymore?

Roger,

Excellent comment. It's about the clients, not the other AR opinions.

TLW,

Do you EVER miss a party? Just when I thought you were getting a little reserved :)

ARDELL

It makes it right and iterates my point that SOME people MAY not like the 'click here' links.

Read your own da*n comments.

LOL

From CopyBlogger

"Woe is me...A reader contacted me after my last post and called me out for using the term "link bait" in it. While he was nice enough, the objection seemed to be that only a sleazy marketer would try to "bait" someone to visit, or link to, a web site."

They go on to justify, as many here are, that it really isn't "bait", but the consumer comment is more relevant than the "excuse" to bait...don't you think?

Hey Ines

Tonight, I'm going to the opening of Danny DeVito's new restaurant in South Beach, are you?

Kev,

Thanks for the assist while I was "out of pocket" :) I can take it from here.

Ardell - I hear you loud and clear but what if the purpose of that link bait is not to get more "clients" but to have your AR buddies visit and get to know your outside blog? I can tell you that if it wasn't for the competition, I would be doing it only occassionally. I have not gotten any business from AR but plan to get plenty from my outside blog and will do it on that blog's own merit. As for AR comments....you have to love them.....look at this thread alone!

Ardell - I think you can teach Kevin a thing or 2 about "blogging etiquette"....he cracks me up! (Kevin...I'm not going but make sure you tell me about it)

Ines,

Read Mary's comment---she says there are no rules. HA!

Ines,

Bait them here...switch them to there equals, Catch their attention on AR and bring them where YOU want them to go. The intent is pure bait and switch.

You are doing it too often. Once in a while. But I went to your AR blog and MOST were like that. Once ina while when it seems appropriate. But you are overdoing it.

I know in my heart that you know I started this thread for you, and to help you, most of all. I will give you a few examples of when it is appropriate.

I had 10 charts of local stats. Posting ALL on RCG was way too many for a group blog. So I made an entire post (not a read more post) and then had a link to those who wanted ALL the charts over on my blog. Deeper content by link is appropriate.

The intent was to not clog up RCG with 10 charts. The intent was not to bait them on RCG and switch them to my blog from there.

Anytime you are baiting TO switch them...that is not "good" intent. Each blog post should stand alone. The link should be for more detailed info, but the post should not just END at MORE HERE or the reader has wasted their time up to that point. AND it should not be more than 20% of posts done that way. Even 20% is too many. 5% to 10%, otherwise you look like "a trickster".

Kev,

Is Danny DeVito going to be at the grand opening? I keep think about his eating those veggies out of his pocket at the awards show...is it a "baja fresh" concept :) What's the cuisine? Italian?

Ardell - I really do know you are doing this to help and you know I appreciate it. I have been discussing this with many people for a long time asking if there's a right way and wrong way to do it and why. Ultimately it is the consumer that matters and if that makes any of us look like "triscksters" then there's something REALLY wrong. Point is well taken and the lesson has been learned.

Would you please e-mail me separately next time? ......nah.......I take that back, it would not be half as fun. (maybe Kevin can bring us a doggy bag from Devito's)

Ardell,

This is the funniest post I read today. I think READ ON

We're driving traffic to a weblog, not stealing money.! I hate commercials on a television but I understand that they are a necessary evil.

Brian, this is an Ardell classic, in my opinion. This is why she is so good at this blogging thing. She understands just how to push the hot buttons and, as the comment stream indicates, how to manage the tension with respect.

Ines,

The project is to coach out there as much as possible so others learn too. I did not mean to single you out, and did my best not to do that. Besides some others do it MORE than you do, so it really isn't all about you.

I just ask that people stop and think before doing it and not just randomly bait it over ALL the time. It's not good.

Turner,

As Swann says...some read it as my schtik...it just happens to be real at the same time. I loved his write up, which I then used as my bio on the Inman Blogger's Connect. Seeing yourself as others see you is quite interesting.

Brian...you know I know...and I hear it from the mouths of clients. That is the best source. What I can't tell is if consumers in other areas feel the same way. But I am POSITIVE that here in techieland...link baiting is a NO NO!

#1 Reason people choose their agent is TRUST. People don't Trust Link Baiters. To put it in simpler business terms.

Brian,

Your Read On drives the traffic to Bloodhound. Why not the reverse? They have more readers. Why not do mini posts on Bloodhound and drive that traffic to your personal site?

Personally, I don't like to have to follow links to read the rest of the post or to read an article. I just find it annoying. I also find it annoying to have to "turn to page 7" of the newpaper or magazine for the rest of the article. So maybe it's just me!

Obviously you stirred up a little controversy...you go girl! Love a good controversial post!

Ardell....... bravo at least for a good discussion. Something thought provoking. But some of us were working today, so I just finished reading every comment.

In any case.... not to be a politician...... as so many seem to be on AR. Whoops... hate me now? Seriously though, I see your point and I guess I could slightly agree. But I will agree with others that "bait & switch" is way too harsh. How is it deceiving? I am not lying to them? I am merely saying...."hey, if you like what you see, please click on over to read the rest"... It's still the TRUTH..... no matter where I would have written it.

Ardell, I was always taught, if you are going to debate and take a side, to show good evidence per se. You gave these links in your comment.

It's link bait guys This link takes me to wikipedia. Here is their definition [READ the LAST SENTENCE] : Link bait is any content or feature within a website that somehow baits viewers to place links to it from other websites. Attempts to create link bait are frequently employed in the overall task of search engine optimization. Matt Cutts defines link bait as anything "... interesting enough to catch people's attention." ^[1] Typically, users on bulletin boards, newsgroups, social networking websites, or blogs place a link to a website in some copy that further encourages another member or visitor to click. It can be an extremely powerful form of marketing as it is viral in nature.

Here is your next link : It's called link bait. [this page couldn't be found]

Next link you offered : "link bait" I READ THIS POST I didn't read anything here that said that link baiting is BAD... negative. And they used terms such as HOOk... aka, humor hook, news hook, attack hook, and resource hook. And then went on to say that these so-called hooks are to get others to your other site. But again, I read nothing negative.

One of your last links that you supplied : decide to do it I READ THIS ONE> This is copied from it directly :

Link baiting (or linkbaiting) is the latest buzz word in the SEO world and has come to be the preferred way to natural link building.

It means to create something that naturally attract backlinks for your web page by getting people to talk about it, discussing it on forums, blogging about i, posting it on del.icio.us/Furl/Digg/Shoutwire and linking to it from their sites. It also attracts a lot of visitors.

Again... I don't see anything negative here. You said the public. Whose public?

Overall.... I am not an expert on this. I get ticked easily. I like perfection. I hate those that bait and switch.... when I read a blog, if it TRULY catches my attention and leads me to the rest of the story, I read it and comment, especially if it's GOOD>

I think what might get under your skin... which this also gets under mine a little are these exact words. READ MORE I actually put a sentence in here instead. Or a caption...anything but, READ MORE> I still lead them.

On another note that you made, which I think is credible. Seeing someone do this 80% of the time. You might have a valid point here. I do link baits maybe 20% of the time, if that... maybe 10% as of now....

Overall.... I think this is more of an opinion and not of rules, likes, or dislikes. Besides, most links that you posted on this topic seemed positive, not negative against link baits.

Anyhow... when I started writing this comment, there were 104 comments. I hope I didn't repeat anything since then. I guess we'll see when I hit submit.

Ardell..... I TRULY RESPECT those that speak their mind, not afraid. I respect what you have said. I don't agree. And I hope you didn't think I was bashing you here. I tend to get bashed when I speak my mind. But we won't go there. ;o) All of this was my .02 and my humble opinion.

Again, great thought provoking blog.

jeff belonger

Jeff,

You lost me at "But some of us were working today". Take a jab...lose the audience.

Do you REALLY think everyone else who commented here DIDN'T work today??

I haven't done it myself but I have noticed quite a bit of it cropping up on here lately!

The first time I "bit" I felt tricked, the second time....foolish.

I don't bite anymore ...I just stop reading!

Thanks Joan. Just think if you as a Realtor feel that way, how the general public perceives it. Trickery. And then we wonder why, and complain when, the public views us as it does.

Ardell... sorry.... I just meant, damn so many comments and that I couldn't participate in this earlier. I actually had a very busy day today.... between a funeral mass and then a busy day with closings... I wish I could have chimed in earlier. Sorry for my dry humor. I must have been tired with so much to say after reading all of the comments.

Now... you lost me with, take a jab.... lose the audience. Not trying to sound rude here or stupid, but am I missing something? My eyelids do feel tired though. thanks

jeff belonger

Ardell... let me ask you this question then. I read a few people in this thread mention other links in a post. Sending you to other sites with articles also. So... should I be copying each article and adding them into my post then? Shouldn't you keep a post to a minimum length? Wouldn't a long post also lose a reader? No matter how good it might be in the beginning??? Just a thought. But aren't links to give people a glimpse of other topics related to that specific post?

Another question.... how am I tricking you, if I lead you to read more of what you started? In reality, if it's a good start, all I am doing is continuing it. Misleading, bait and switch, and tricking someone in my opinion is totally different.

Now... I do agree... I think if you do it too often, I think it can hurt you. But from a SEO standpoint, these links that you gave us, tell us that this kind of linking is actually good. That is can help your searches. But as I have stated, I agree with you that doing it too much could hurt you if you have consumers that read you often. Again, just my .02.

jeff belonger

Jeff...your bashing of us was in insinuating that you were the only one working today. I'm sure all of the fine people who commented here, some repeatedly, also worked today. We just don't work 9-5. I had a closing today. Spent the morning lugging out the last of the staging equipment up and down the stairs. Spent most of the day on the phone and email with escrow regarding the wiring of the buyer's funds in time for recording. Arranged for the seller to get their last piece of furniture out and then for key exchange and now to the airport to take my daughter, leaving from her trip here for my birthday.

Blogging is something some of as do WHILE we work, not as a hobby AFTER work.

As to the "good" links, they are honest links. They call it "link baiting" a hook, a bait and switch. That they then try to justify the end as in "the end justifies the means" does not change what it is.

I used BAIT as they used BAIT because it IS bait. Like I said...you want to bait people to your purposes, go right ahead. Just don't pretend that you aren't doing it after you to it.

Ardell... I already explained that I said what I said, in the wrong context. I apologize. But then you go on. I guess I was trying to be funny, while being tired. Sorry.... I am human.

Back to your comments in regards to this post.

You say Bait.... where is it mentioned that it is bait and switch. There is a difference. Bait can be to lead someone to something. ATTRACT. Hook, etc etc.... Do you attract people by what you write on how you write it? Would that be hooking someone because you write well? But is it the truth and sincere? If so, that wouldn't be bait and switch. Bait and switch is totally negative, deceitful.... lying, misleading.

Again, just my opinions. But these links did not mention this.

Ok, I just got about halfway through the comments, and the tomato said something, that made me skip to the end and comment -

"Newspapers and magazines have been sending us to the backpages to finish an article since their inception. Why the need to drag harmless marketing out into the arena and stone it now?" - RT

There is a huge difference between reading an article on the front page of the NY Times and having to turn to page three and reading an article on the front page of the NY Times and having to go buy Newsweek to finish it. Forcing people to go to an entirely different website to finish reading something that has been started in one place is bait and switch.

I have noticed an increasing trend of this on AR and have been turned off by it. I usually don't click through, because I'm turned off by it. I think Ardell is right here. If you are blogging on AR for business, do you really want your possible clients to be turned off by you?

OK - I'm done with my rant for now. I'm going back to finish reading the comments.

Ardell - I'm with you.

I won't violate rule 29.3 set forth in the Stewart Convention Doctrine of Blogging by posting a link in a comment but back on 5/17 I asked

Why are you giving me BD*?

(* Blogging Dysfunction)

I didn't get an answer.

I can agree it is beautiful to drive traffic to the mothership, but I agree more with your underlying logic and perception from the readership.

Nobody's mentioned this but if it truly was a continuation, why doesn't the new page start where the link left off?

Great debate!

Blogging is something some of as do WHILE we work, not as a hobby AFTER work.

I won't get into the mix...although I agree 100% with you on this statement above..WooHoo! Thanks for letting me park my behind and read the rest though...that was mighty interesting.

This post is actually getting funnier.

Signed,

The Master Link...well...misdirector

Melissa..... As Ardell, you do bring up a point. And using the analogy that you do does she some more light. But let me ask you and Ardell this.... if it wasn't done much on here, on AR, would you be turned off by it? Seriously.... I have even been turned off by it. I will admit that. When I see someone write like 3 to 4 posts in a row, doing this. I still don't think it's wrong though. I think you are turned off because of how it looks. It's ONLY a LINK... taking you further, to continue a story. Just as you said.... you read the beginning on page 1 and then it directs you to page 8.... do you still read it? YES>.. because you were interested.

I think the mail problem here is that some of you don't like how it looks. Would you honestly read a blog, not seeing the READ MORE button..... but get to this so-called button and not continue, even if you loved what you read and became very INTERESTED... but decided not to continue because it said... READ MORE?

Now...like I stated before.... I do not like the READ MORE link. I personally would like to read a link that had something pertaining to the blog itself...leading me on to continue what I started.

jeff belonger

Sally... I just picked the wrong choice of words. I am human.... I was tired and I tried to be funny. It backfired.

Mike... that was my whole point. I went back to the 3 blogs that I did a so-called back link on.... only one said, please click here to continue.

Here are the ones that I did with back links.

To learn more, follow this link >> Credit & Being Qualified.

Find out what almost happened to this client and read Mortgage Financing.... it could be a ride you wished that you never took!!!

Second, FHA does have some things approved, but it's up to Congress to decide.

Ardell - thank you for helping me see this in anew light - I have been "emulating" many of the techniques I saw in the Project Blogger and started doing it myself.

Thank you for causing me to stop and think of it from the CONSUMERS eyes - made me think "Lucy, you got some 'splaining to do!"

We all want to build our outside site - but at what price - Integrity and Trust are everything to me - if nothing else it's a reminder that moderation in all things is important.

Love your insightful honesty- thank you for caring about all of us enough to facilitate this conversation. I for one learned a new thing or two.

P.S. I just got in from a day with a AR lead and writing a contract! :-) Still have much to do before I sleep tonight!

Actually Jeff, I am so turned off the the read more button, that I DO NOT CLICK THE LINK- EVER! It doesn't matter how interesting I found the original blog to be. It is that big of a turn off for me. May be that just me, but if the people who are doing this, are doing it to increase their business, then it seems counterproductive to do something that is a huge turn-off to potential clients.

I think there are ways to reference other blogs, that generate interest and cause readers to want to go the other blog without having to force them over. I know that I spent several hours reading a variety of Ardell's posts on RainCity because she reference the controversy that had occurred on that blog when she talked about Zillow valuations. I chose to go to her blog, she sparked my interest and drew me in. She didn't drag me there with a teaser paragraph. Had she tried I never would have gone.

This is just my view, I respect that others may not be turned off by this, but I think Ardell's point is why deliberately do something that might detract.

'MIGHT' is so the key word, Melissa. Why would a blogger want to risk it? Working so hard to engage someone and putting something right there infront of them like a speed bump. Who the heck likes speedbumps

Ardell,

I wouldn't call it bait and switch ...it's more like "steering" Personally as a consumer myself I find it annoying. I don't do it myself but hey to each their own

Kevin. I totally agree. It is a risk. I guess that if a blogger has weight the risks and thinks the benefits out weight the negatives, that is a deliberate marketing choice. I know that our firm uses some marketing techniques, that are somewhat controversial. However, we know that this is the case an we chose to do it anyway because of the benefits. I think that Ardell's original intent was to make others aware that there are negatives and to make sure that when they make this choice it is a conscious decision.

BTW - shouldn't you be at a Devito party?? I thought this was going to be your first attempt at a sappy blog??

Jeff,

I think we were posting at the same time.

I'm almost done uploading pics....you should see the pics!!!

Mitchell!!

Excellent point! Call it STEERING and we are reminded of something ILLEGAL in this industry. Back to the TITLE of this post... what does this practice say about YOU! Thanks Mitchell!! A negative connotation anyway you slice it.

Kevin,

I have a dumb question. I had really long nails (mine grow fast) until recently when two broke while getting a house ready for market. So I had them all cut back.

I feel younger with shorter nails than longer ones. Are long nails totally out? Don't you see more long nails on older women? Did you happen to notice at the restaurant opening? Can you take notice for me in the next week or two if younger women have shorter nails?

Thanks.

Cyndee,

Thank you for remembering that this is a Project Blogger post, and as such it is my role as one of the Coaches of the Project, to highlight both the positives and negatives of various approaches.

I take my role as Coach very seriously. I was only talking about the Apprentices and not other Active Rain participants. Not that they can't read and heed...but when it comes to the Apprentices, they signed on for hard work and good advices. And I give to that end.

Long nails are very, um prostitute! The post is almost done. Boobs everywhere! I felt like I was the paparazzi---but I didn't care. I'm gonna win this week for BEST (HANDS DOWN) SAPPY NEIGHBORHOOD post.

Ardell,

Despite the fact that all of my recent posts on AR have been of the "steering" variety, I think you are right on...

Someone may have already said this, but it reminds me of the people who only provide a partial RSS feed of their blog inorder to get the page views on their site... My reaction to partial feeds? Unsubscribe! :)

BTW, I do have a reason for my link posts on AR... Also being a project blogger coach, I wanted to let the AR community know that I had provided more advice on RCG without posting the information twice... For normal blogging topics (i.e. ones that don't require AR participation!), I wouldn't do something like this for the reasons you've identified!

Ardell.... you said that we were posting at the same time? meaning? Maybe we are over lapping on each other's comments?

In any case..... Again, Aredell, I will agree... I think some members do it to often and even this keeps me from reading their post.

Melissa.... that was my whole point. Maybe you are just so turned off period, when seeing the words, READ MORE. Like someone else mentioned, maybe a link that leads in with a sentence? I have tried this and it looks more pleasant also.

Kevin.... I do like that term speed bumps and I hate those. But in all honesty, how is a link a speed bump?

Let me ask each and everyone of you then. Please answer honestly out load. Have you ever placed a link in your post/blog? Ever.... isn't that steering? Kevin, is that a speed bump? Are you trying to direct someone to another site to show information?

Ardell, I know you briefly talked about this and gave examples of this. That might be okay. Another thing.... I didn't realize this post was more for the project bloggers. But I am glad this came up, because it will make me more aware. At first, I was totally against what you were saying. I still disagree that you think it's 100% wrong. But I will say that there is some merit to it and I will keep this in the back of my mind when blogging. Thanks.

jeff belonger

Ok... I am writting a blog about the real estate market in Norcross... would it be wrong if I include a link to search houses in Norcross?

Just curious...

Ardell, I agree with you 100%. I find it very annoying and usually never click through. It disorients me and I feel a bad gut reaction. If I feel that way, I'm sure many others do too. I always follow the do unto others rule.

It's funny reading how so many people have gotten so uptight about the term "bait and switch" instead of the actual point you are trying to make.

I think it would be better just to have a link at the end of each post that invites people to your other blog. I like to be invited to a party. I don't like being teased. If I click over when I decide the time is right, I'll probably arrive with a much better attitude.

Hey Kevin are you in the same office as John Dawson?

Hi ARDELL,

What a way to start a conversation! I just finished reading all of the comments that precede this one (ending on Cyndee's) and decided that I would toss in my penny and a half (because I don't know if I am qualified to give a full two cents yet LOL) in.

As a brand new blogger and also a Project Blogger competitor I think that I have been in a fairly unique position low these last two months. As you know I joined AR on 3/30-31/07 (date discrepancy is because it was after midnight when I posted my very first ever blog) and became part of PB less than a week later. So, I truly hit the ground running.

Now I am by no means saying that I am the first or the only person new around here. Or that I am the only apprentice that did not have a lot of blogging experience. I only reiterate my background to point up the fact that much of what I have learned (beyond that which has been shared by my coach Drew, you and the other's) has been by the "monkey see, monkey do" system.

I have tried link baiting sort of (and I knew full well that when I was trying it the only purpose was to drive traffic to my site). I say sort of, because in the rare instances, with one notable exception, that I have utilized this tactic, it was aimed specifically at getting the AR community to take a look at something that I had on Route66Living.com. Usually, because I was particularly proud of what I had written (most often a lengthy humor post). I also decided to try to utilize it more when I noted that one judge in the competition rewarded an apprentice for the behaviour. But even with the positive reinforcement of a judge's comment, I don't really like it, so I don't do it regularly and I don't truly intend to increase the frequency of it now or in the future.

As I said, I don't really like it myself as a consumer when I am in other places on the net and I try very hard not to do to others what I don't like done to me (Hmm, that has a nice ring to it... perhaps I should try copyrighting it, what do you think?). I have learned when I am out on the net to not click links, sidebar ads, read mores (generally) or practically anything beyond what I went looking for originally.

I have gotten locked on a site after clicking an innocent looking link and I learned my lesson. I expect that I am not alone here. Also, I have learned that there are certain sources both here and "out there" that consistently utilize the "I'll only tell you a couple of paragraphs just to get you hooked" method for dragging me where they want me. I noted who does it, and as a result, I avoid their posts and those sites.

I know that it doesn't matter how terrific the title looks, the article won't be there. Further, I know where the article will be and if I decide that I want to read it I can go direct. The thing is, that I usually don't or won't go direct, I already feel a bit played so I resist the urge. I have also seen, especially "out there" but sometimes here as well, that the title and the topic usually don't coincide. They never really tell me how to get rich, how to stay skinny or why paper is better than plastic. They promise, but usually don't deliver.

I also think that this is not necessarily a case of "right" or "wrong" but more of a "right way" and a "wrong way". For instance... Let's say that you want to get $100,000. There are basically two ways you can do it. One would be to choose a legitimate field that has the potential to be lucrative, like, oh... let's say, Real Estate and then work your tail off accomplishing that goal. The other way would be to choose an illegitimate method, like drug dealing to get to the same end product. Either way, you could end up with the hundred grand, but in the first example you got there honestly by the sweat of your brow, there will be potentially much more where that came from as your clients have learned that you are honest, forthright and have integrity. In the second example, sure you got your bucks, but when the authorities catch up to you, and they will, you lose not only your reputation, but your freedom and your $ to boot. I.E. A "Right Way", and a "Wrong Way". Both work, but only one would make my mother proud.

I kind of see this in the same light. ARDELL, you are quite right, it IS all about integrity and intent. If the ONLY reason that you are posting anything here is to siphon folks to your own site, and if the content presented here is absolutely duplicated in both places (even if I have been guilty in the past of doing it literally once or twice:-) then it is a "wrong way" in my opinion. I hereby apologize to anyone that I may have done this to. In crafting my response to this post I see the error of my ways :-)

The other thing to consider is that although we may think that we are being pretty smart by utilizing the power of self-linking a very valuable and Google friendly site to our own, this could backfire pretty badly because I am reasonably sure that Google is smarter. For every loophole that we discover and every trick that we use, they are finding, fixing or exposing and eliminating a hundred.

I could see a day when Google would be looking, really looking at the content that is driving you from point A to point B and, decide that if both locations share the same information and were generated by the same source, (that would be you the author) then neither one has any value. That would be a shame.

Also, while I am pleased and grateful for every "hit" that my site receives due to AR, I am much more interested, as a dedicated Real Estate Blogger (Gee, I really can call myself that without a qualifier, can't I) in the specific traffic that I receive from potential clients. Sure, I love it when my friends and collegues here on AR pop over to see what is up, but the traffic that I am most interested in is that which is coming from my home state or even my home city. That tells me that the "real world" has found me, based on what is there on R66L and not because I tricked 'um, but because they wanted something I had. As soon as my hits from Claremont exceeded the number of folks registered here under Claremont I knew that I was on to something good :-)

The PB competition has done a lot of wonderful things for us all, competitor and spectator alike, but it has also, perhaps started to set a precedent for what could be bad habits in the future as well. Driving traffic to one's site, just for the sake of loading the numbers skews your results. Ultimately making it much harder to decipher what your consumer's are interested in versus what your "readers" are looking at.

For me, by the way those are seen a two distinct groups. I write here on AR for my "readers". I fully expect that most of the folks on AR are, or have a Real Estate professional they would utilize. I may pick up referrals here, but I am really here for the "fun", the sharing, the learning and the friendship. And for those kind folks here that have told me in comments, by subscribing to my blog, in emails and in person that they enjoy and look forward to what I write. I feel a tremendous responsibility for and to them and do everything I can not to let them down.

Route66Living.com is more for the food and thus the audience is very different. I feel a great responsibility to them as well. I do everything I can to give them something of value every time they visit, whether it is information or a laugh. I write on Route66Living.com for my consumers. Those nameless and faceless folks that are coming to my site again and again but won't reveal their identity to me until they are ready to engage in a dialogue. That is also one of the main reasons why I work so very hard to keep the two sites, and their content so distinict from each other. And that is one of the reasons why driving traffic from AR to Route66Living is not something I have engaged in regularly.

I can see the other apprentice's points about putting a title and a link here to remind those that know and introduce those that don't, that your other site is out there and that it has some great stuff on it. Especially while Project Blogger is going on. And I can usually tell the difference between "I just wrote this, come take a look" and "I'm going to do this again and again and again".

Also, the results of the latter behaviour are easy to see. Your number of readers drops. And it drops fast. Give them something new, fresh and different. Every once in a while link back to your site if there is something extra there, and you gain readership, credibility and ultimately business.

So in closing, I try to avoid the link baiter's and I try to avoid the "Generic Marketing Piece" posters as well. I also try super hard not to fall into either camp. It is a challenge, a constant temptation, but much like an infamous "apple" giving in to the temptation may just not be worth the result.

Take care all, help lots of people and have a wonderful day!

Tisza

Great post. I never thought of it like that. I could see how it could be a turn off to people reading.

So Kevin...is that long nails good? I never know with you. :) Spit it out.

Jeff,

You were apologizing while I was whining :) So I didn't see your apology until after I posted my whine.

Jeff,

It's about integrity. If the purpose of the link is to provide the reader with additional information that you HONESTLY could not put into the post where it is, like a link to someone else's article and site,then it's OK.

It's the INTENT!!! It's about honesty and integrity. If the intent is to drag them somewhere to your own purposes...then no.

Same as when you leave a comment on someone else's blog (and your big advertisement of yourself in your comments is the same issue BTW. Advertising ourself on someone else's blog is a no no. You are WAAAAAYYYYY overstated with that big Moniker.

It's like going to someone's party and standing on a table and announcing that you want all of the guests to join you elsewhere. Or going to a wedding in a bridal gown and you ain't the bride.

Thanks for popping in, Dustin. I totally get what you are doing, but isn't it to some extent an indication that you really aren't bloggin on AR? Not that you should or have to. But you wouldn't call that an AR blog...would you? If it always leads somewhere else?

Whoa! Hot topic! I can't resist! I admit I have link baited in the past. Here is the reason. Because I was too lazy to write two individual post. That's right. I was totally trying to get mileage out of it. So I would have to agree with Adrell on this one. If you are blogging in multiple blogs then write targeted information for that audience. When I first came to AR, I looked around and saw the hot topic was SEO, so 90% of my blog post have been about SEO. the reality is that SEO is only a small part of my business, but i did it because I was targeting. My other blog is more well rounded. So the best option is to write content that is targeted to that audience instead of double dipping. And yes still link bait, just don't make it look like link bait. For example, 90% of my links in my post are links to my clients, but they are practical examples and not just a "read more" link. That's the most effective way to give link love. And Kudos to you Ardell, all of my post combined have not gotten this many comments! Amazing!

Mike Mueller,

I have no clue what you are talking about regarding 5/19 and I can't promise I'll have time to investigage by looking at all of your and my posts and comments of that date. Can you post a link to it, just in case?

Ok, so I know everyone missed me, including Ines. I did go to the ultra-exclusive opening of Danny DeVito's new restaurant here in South Beach. I'm sure ARDELL won't mind me coming to her party and telling you to visit DeVito South Beach.

Is the above link like Jeff's advertisment?

The point Ardell is making and I really get it is as real estate agents we re not professional bloggers or web companies or the media or whatever.

We are agents 1st bloggers and webmasters second. Many people who are on active rain are not real estate agents.

Thanks for popping in Sally. I would like to get to know you better. I don't think we connect automatically, but I am extending the hand as I like a lot of what I see in your "stuff". Hopefully we'll meet up somewhere.

Mitchell,

Blogging enthusiasts want to read about real estate and then they want to choose an agent based on the conveyance of SKILL, KNOWLEDGE and INTEGRITY as DEMONSTRATED by the blogging. If they perceive that you are not really blogging, but selling to them or baiting them or conning them...you defeat the purpose of blogging in the first place.

If the blog is agent'centric and not consumer centric...then you are saying you are the kind of agent who can't put your own interests aside when representing someone in a fiduciary capacity. Yes, of course, we benefit. But the purpose of everything we do must focus on the consumer, and not to grab or hook the consumer.

WHY IS A CONSUMER READING THE BLOG?...GIVE THEM THAT! Give them what THEY came for, not what you will DO with them, like lead them around to where you want to take them.

LOL Kevin,

We all want to see the party. Thanks for the link!! No it's not the same thing. You are sharing something and answering Ines question raised here in these comments. Totally appropriate!

Besides, we are connected. You can advertise on my blog anytime you want :) Until after August 1 anyway.

Thanks!

You can ALWAYS advertise on mine, even after Aug. 1!

I was kidding about the Stewart Convention Rules (see the prior debate on blogging rules higher up in comments)

I do love the debate and the deep thinking here.

Here's the related or associated post I mentioned:

http://activerain.com/blogsview/100982/Why-are-you-giving

And Brian Brady - I absolutely loved the "Master Linker" reference!

Brad,

Thanks for stopping in. You bring up a good point. The distinction between "Link Bait" and "Link Love", though there is a sickening pyramid scheme based on inappropriate "link love" going on in AR at present. Even "Link Love" can be inappropriate if the intent is merely to build a wild pyramid to attract traffic to the participants.

I hesitated to raise the issue of why Kevin's blog didn't get up in the first few weeks, one of them being my objection of the "read more" set up which I asked to be changed. I have not been free to discuss many of the behind the scenes "coaching" which is detrimental to the contest concept.

So I ask you to comment on my original change of Kevin's blog from the "read more" theme you originally instituted.

As I recall, it was like this comment of Dustin's: "Someone may have already said this, but it reminds me of the people who only provide a partial RSS feed of their blog inorder to get the page views on their site... My reaction to partial feeds? Unsubscribe! :)"

Isn't that the way you originally set up Kev's blog and I likely ticked you off by demanding it be changed? :)

Nattalie,

Totally appropriate and a valued service link to take them where they can search the MLS. But not at the bottom of every post. Actually that link should be ALWAYS in your sidebar. Mine is in a "sticky" entry at the top of my blog page.

I wanted to touch on something else.

I read 30 or so blogs a day using my google homepage (not my google reader)

These are RSS Feeds, outside the realm of A/R.

On each blog I have it set to show me the last 3 posts.

The first click shows me the title.
The second the full feed of the post

If I start to read and feel like I want to really read the post (as opposed to skimming it) I click on it again and read it from within the blog itself.

In effect I am doing my own version of bait and switch from the consumer side.

Dustin - You are correct, no full feed = Unsubscribe!

Nattalie,

P.S. You are taking them to a place THEY want to go...to search for property. If you feel it is a value added service to link from you blog to an mls search, and it is, then again INTENT is to give more, not to drag them over to your benefit. You may benefit...but that wasn't why you put the link. You put the link to provide a value added service.

Brad,

Below from Mike Mueller:

Dustin - You are correct, no full feed = Unsubscribe!

You comments appreciated. Was this my first and original "demand" for edit?

Mike Mueller,

Oh. I thought you asked ME and I didn't answer. Now I see you didn't ask me. You asked

So Hey...

So maybe they will answer you now :)

Not ignoring you, Tisza. Yours is so long I'm saving it or last :) Making sure I don't miss any others before diving in there.

Loved that computer/blog cake BTW!

JUN

2007

Tim,

A better way would be "the Bloodhoundblog" way. List a few "related" articles of interest at the bottom of the post that are ON your other blog. Much the same way that Amazon.com says "if you like this book...try these".

Ardell,

This post is getting awfully silly. Now you are enticing people to wrap themselves in the cloak of "integrity and honesty" because of your silly little rule about no direction to home weblogs from Active Rain. Here's the hypocrisy...you are the master of the "bait and switch" (as you describe it; I call is masterful marketing).

This weblog post title is dishonest (by your definition). Post direction is not as insidious as a "bait and switch tactic" but it makes good copy. You wrote a post on RCG about "returning over $60,000 to buyers" as if all Realtors won't do such a thing. It presupposes a premise that commissions aren't negotiable. That title by itself is predicated on a lie (commissions ARE negotiable). Is that post dishonest? Not by my definition but it is by yours; I think it's masterful marketing copy.

Silly little rules, designed by "experts" stifle creativity. We need MORE creativity, people, and less rules. Do what works for you and don't feel guilty about it.

OK Tisza,

I say this with love. LOL You don't write a post on someone else's post. I am not offended. You could never offend me, and you know that.

New lesson. If you want to write THAT MUCH about someone else's post, then write an entire new post on your blog and link to the one that "inspired" the article. Other bloggers will resent an entire post on their post. A comment should never be as long as or longer than the blog host's original article.

I loved the "monkey see; monkey do" line. And that is one of the reasons I felt it was time to raise this red flag before it got any more out of hand.

Brian....will you marry me? oh wait, you're already married, and so am I! You guys make this so much fun!

Brian,

I'm not going to dignify that with an response. It is totally off topic. And it wasn't $60,000 and you obviously didn't get the point of the article. Whatever bug is up your butt...someday we'll talk. For now...you went way out into left field to take a swat at me.

I am NOT the one saying link baiting questions the integrity of the agent writer. I am conveying to you what the consumer public tells me, when they choose me.

Listen and learn...or not. But taking swats over outside issues...inappropriate.

Brian,

Staying ON topic, bait and switch means here you are...there you go. hook and pull, bait and switch. The title IS appropriate to the context of the post and comments.

Who is Brooke Hogan?

Um Hello...she is Hulk Hogan's daughter and they have that show on VH1 'Hogan Knows Best'. He lives here now, in South Beach

To date of my being in AR this is THE MOST hilarious and intense/explosive post/thread I've seen.

It's amazing.

I'm confused...

Is she the Bait or the Switch

Never thought about this before ... but now that have read your post, I think we disagree with you. Think we agree with the people who are disagreeing with you . The point of blogging at all is to get business, not to become popular with a certain blogging group.

Just my 2 cents.

BTW - what is the point of the post above with the lady in a strapless gown? that lost its meaning on me.

Bob & Carolin...I'm NOT speaking for ARDELL but I think it was just a humorous thing. I could be wrong?

ARDELL,

Point taken :-) You want to hear the really funny thing? My Mel said the very same thing to me just before I hit submit LOL. I will know better from now on. But you know how I do like to run on...

Take care,

Tisza

You speak of one of my passions Ardell. I joined your other site Sellsius Real Estate. I ma looking forward to contributing there.

There are a few here in California that think asking advise on their tattoos and doing jokes as an illustration of the professionalism. And they guessed right, it does reflect exactly that. I love humor and use it to seldom as I am still learning. BUT, it drives me crazy to watch them gain stature and position and not take the site seriously. Too bad. One must simply ignore them as they are empowered knowing that are beating the system. In the end, they loose all credibility. Hopefully they reap what they sow. Pardon my passion and love for this business shows and perhaps speaks too loudly. Shhhhhh. Had to vent that!

Ardell, To answer your question about the original "read more" on Kevin's blog. WordPress allows you to show the full blog or the blog snippet. The fact that it started as a snippet instead of the full postwas just a case of copy and pasting code. I just happened to copy and paste the snippet code and not the full code.

To be honest, there was not any marketing thought to it. When I originally setup Kevin's blog, I just did the standard WordPress install (using the latest version). Kevin said you were the Blog goddess (after Googleing your name, I agreed with him). He said that you had some ideas for how you wanted the blog to be tweaked. So no real thought process with the original setup, it was all just the standard package, I let you and Kevin pick the upgrades. Sorry I can't be more contriversal on this one. :-) And No, you didn't tick me off by requesting the change. Kevin pays me by the hour so I don't mind the work (all 3 minutes of it). hahaha

William,

Thanks for the comment. Sellsius is Rudy Bacharaty and Joe Ferrara's blog. We all all great friends in the blogosphere, but I am not associated with Sellsius blog. I appear there only because they selected me and 9 other women as the top female real estate bloggers last year.

Tisza,

You are always learning something new...as are we all. Say hey to Mel for me.

Bob and Carolin,

I get all my business from blogging. It is business to demonstrate integrity. I don't know who the girl is. That was my question. Kev. I don't know who the girls is. Who is she?

Oh, I see. Hulk Hogan's daughter. He's a wrestler...right?

Thanks Brad. Was it the type Dustin and someone else referred to with partial RSS feed? I'm no techie. So far haven't needed to be one. Heck it took me 6 months to figure out how to link, so I certainly wasn't link baiting to get clients. I didn't know how :)

It is totally off topic

Hardly, Ardell. I'm not taking a swat at you; I'm appauding you for your creative use of "baiting and switching" tactics- I love it!.

Your $68 745 post is classic blogging marketing; you hammer home the point that all brokerage fees are negotiable while wrapping it up with specific "stories" revealed in a link direction to your home weblog. Why suggest the use of link direction to a home weblog is dishonest, now?

Go figure that I would decide to read a post right before turning in and it would happen to have 182 comments to read through as well. This post has given me a serious headache. It sure would be nice if blogging was a little less like reality and had a nice little list of 'do's' and 'don'ts' that everyone agreed upon. The longer I'm involved in Project Blogger the more confused I get. I miss writing with blissful ignorance.

Brian,

As I stated. Sometimes it is appropriate to link out, and I have done so on fewer times than I can count on one hand. I believe I am quoting something I said up there. There's a huge difference between linking over 4 times in a year and a half, than linking over 4 times out of 6 posts.

Do you really think I would waste my time on a once every three months or so happenstance? Some are doing it every single post now. It's out of hand.

I forgot that I linked out there...though I don't think I wrote many follow ups. People seemed more interest in the topic of the dollars that the individual stories. So I dropped it.

Isn't it true though, that people will only follow the links if it's something they are interested in, so it doesn't matter as much about the tactic because if they are not interested, they won't follow the link to the rest of the story. On news sites you get this as well, in fact on many sites this is used on a regular basis...

Teaser ads/blogs, bait and switch... I don't care what you call it - Yuk! I'll read your posting here on Active Rain, but I won't chase it to another site. And apparently there are others who feel this way. We know you post your teaser here just to get points, and suspect that you don't really wish to engage in this community. No respect earned, using this technique - at least not from me. You are not one of the people on ActiveRain that I'm likely to refer business to. Just one person's opinion.

Well Ardell, you lit a fire with this one. You stirred that boiling pot, kudos! I actually read every comment....when I started reading I was 30 and now I'm semi-retired:-) Seriously though, I'm not going to get in a debate on whether or not you are right or wrong or whatever...I just don't feel like it. What I will say is that the majority of time what you speak of in regards to including CLICK HERE links to outside sites is something I personally don't do. That's just me, right or wrong, smart marketing or not. I offer up everything I have in a particular post and you get it all there, right or wrong, smart marketing or not.

this technique works for those on whom it works. just like we all hate getting postcards in the mail from real estate agents saying 'now is a good time to sell', the fact is these techniques work, so they should be used, as long as you understand the tool and what kind of client it will likely produce.

Not a solveable dilemma. I have a partner at work that, if she says one word to a customer (new homes), feels that she "made the deal happen". This involves egos- and the decision that redirecting is doing the consumer a favor is sincere, but wholly self serving. And likely not a benefit, but some individuals will never see it any other way- as with my partner, it's impossible to get them out of themselves to view the big picture (or small detail- however one views this). Doesn't make anyone a bad real estate person- just one with a large ego ("my site will help the consumer- why not redirect")...

Guess I have an opinion on this and that's that nobody has to go where they don't want to. I've actually started reading other posts and where it says click here for the rest of the story, sometimes I chose not to do that. As long as you don't click on one thing and it automatically takes you somewhere else then it's up to the writer of the post to take the chance or not of losing the reader's interest. That's all I have to say on the subject. One thing else I'd like to say is that it's funny how that song "Dirty Laundry" is playing in my head right now. The more controversial a post is the more clicks it gets. Wow! 189 comments is quite alot of interest, don't ya' think?

Sharon,

The point of the article is that the way that you blog is the way that you think and work...to a consumer. So if you use "tactics" in your blogging to manipulate the readership, it can be assumed you will use "tactics" with your clients to manipulate them as well. How you blog should emulate how you work.

Margaret,

Respecting the community you are in and dragging from is not a small point in all this. I agree. It's kind of like going to an Open House and trying to work the buyers at someone else's Open House. Take the AR people over to "your office".

"I learned the term LINK BAIT from consumers, not inside professionals. Heed or don't. They perceive it as a tactic that reduces your credibility."

Ardell - do these same consumers understand that bloggers would prefer to put the entire article in both places - and don't because they would be penalized for duplicate content?

I don't think the action of linking to another site via "read more" is nearly as nefarious as your "bait and switch" allegation makes it sound. To me, the issue is less "bait and switch" and more "Don't make me think."

In other words, rather than having a link that simply says "read more," then links to another site, I would have the link say "Read the full story at my company blog." That lets the reader know that by clicking the link they will be taken to another site.

I do feel that each blog should serve an indigenous purpose. No one blog can be all things to all people. I view Active Rain as a place where those in the industry can network and learn from one another and see blogging here as serving a different purpose than a blog outside AR.

However, I can't fault anyone for leveraging the powerful platform that is Active Rain to shed a little light (and Google Juice) on their main business blog. Going back to what I said in the second paragraph, so long as a reader knows that in clicking a given link they will be taken to another site, it's cool. I do agree, however, that the best approach to creating links is to incorporate them in the body of the text. That's a much more natural way of doing things.

I think there is an over-riding issue that needs to be addressed, and Mary Pope-Handy did allude to it: Blogging rules. There are no "blogging ten commandments" that I know of, and I was one of the first to try and establish a set of blogging best practices a number of years ago. Believe me, the idea was met with derision then, and it still is today.

It doesn't matter that blogging has become much more mainstreamed. There are no rules, and everything under the sun that can be tried where blogging is concerned has in terms of using it for marketing purposes. Rather, it's the wisdom of crowds that determines whether a certain practice passes muster or not. That's the case here as well, imo.

Jason,

What I especially like about the comments is that none seem frivolous. Kev and I did a tiny comic relieve aside to ease the tension. But by and large, all comments were meaningful additons to the discussion. We don't see that often enough on posts what have a huge comment flow.

I think everyone who came here stopped and thought about. Agree or not, they clearly cannot ignore the issue in the future. They may choose it still...but not without first having thought about the ramifications.

Daniel,

I would agree with you that any tactic that works should be used if you agree that agents should suck it up when called used car salesman and agree with that statement. I am one of those agents who does not agree that we are salesmen in the first place.

Laurie,

I think from past experience with you that you "get it". That it is not about the simply act of mainpulative tactis in blogging...that it is about what it says about YOU as the Title suggests. I say you are a blogging agent who manipulates to your own advantage...always. Not just when blogging.

Lisa,

I actually did this as part of Project Blogger. They are Apprentices, and as a Coach, I only expected the Apprentices who "signed up" to be critiqued to their betterment, would have taken notice.

In my view, an Apprentice, by definition is asking to be taught something new. To be challenged to do better and best.

I clearly did this for Project Blogger and never anticipated the broad interest to this extent.

Tony,

Isn't that like asking a consumer if he understands WHY the seller chose to overprice their house? Does WHY really matter, and do they stop to take that into consideration? Or do they often just leave the overpriced house saying "What are they nuts"?

Consumers do not usually stop to figure out the objective of the blogger or anyone else trying to manipulate them. The simply react.

""Read the full story at my company blog." That lets the reader know that by clicking the link they will be taken to another site."

Interesting point Paul. Would "full disclosure" cover the issue adequately. Interesting. I don't know the answer to that one. Will have to ask some consumers. I think the answer will be no, as they view the blog as a reflection of the person. Pretty much it's like asking a buyer you meet at an Open House to come over to your office. I think the reaction might be "deer in headlights" if not timed properly.

"There are no rules, and everything under the sun that can be tried where blogging is concerned has in terms of using it for marketing purposes. Rather, it's the wisdom of crowds that determines whether a certain practice passes muster or not. That's the case here as well, imo."

I absolutely agree. And I am conveying to "Apprentices"...as a Coach...what my experience has taught. Isn't that the whole purpose of Project Blogger?

Ardell, I didn't know people did this! I think it's wrong and if someone comes to AR to read a blog I don't think we should make them go elsewhere to keep reading our post! I think if a realtor wants to post something on AR and on their own site that is fine but to require readers to go elsewhere is a different story. Thanks for informing us about this...you are so opinionated, it's great!!

I'll throw my two cents in with the disagreeing crowd. Just because a person says something with a voice of authority doesn't mean that it should be taken as a rule of etiquette for blogging. No offense Ardell, but who make you the Miss Manners of Blogging?

These blogs are a dime a dozen...probably more like a dime for 3,208,233 blog posts. If people click on the link and enjoy the content, then great for them. If they chose not to click because they don't like the idea of being "lured" away, then that's cool too.

Bob Mitchell

ValueList Real Estate Services, Inc.

Thanks for chiming in Patricia. Realtors talk about "raising the bar", but then complain when the bar goes over their head :) Thanks for seeing the big picture.

Bob,

Realtors and the internet should be a step above techies getting into real estate. It is up to us to raise the expectation above merely SEO friendly and internet tactics.

Linkbaiting is not the same thing as bait & switch.

Let's get the terminology correct. I commented on Brian's post because I thought he was talking about linkbaiting when in reality he was talking about simply putting a snippet of an article here and offering users the opportunity to read more at his own blog. Now I don't want to get into whether this is right or wrong but it is not bait and switch (since he offers users the opportunity to read more if they want, if not they can choose not to). It is not linkbait either.

If anything your post and his subsequent post can be considered linkbait. Linkbait is essentially writing something or offering something that others consider link worthy. It can be a useful tool or article or it could be somehting designed to create controversy. It does not have to be done purposefully although there are many people who make a good living creating linkbait for SEO purposes. Both your post and Brian's post created controversy and lead to others linking to them. The very definition of one form of linkbait.

Sorry, to get off topic but I felt the need to clarify. Especially when one argues against linkbait while using a classic linkbait technique (most probably unknowingly but it is still technically linkbait).

Mark,

If your point is that writing ANY good article, both positive or negative, is link baiting...well, let's just say it's at least " a horse of a different color".

Ardell, in a sense it is. Linkbait can be creating great content, a great new tool, or interesting information that compels others to create links to it. If you look at the word link bait it is nothing more than something put out to attract links. There are many people who create articles and content specifically to "bait" people into linking to it but many times the linkbait is a secondary effect created when someone provides interesting content or tools.

Mark,

When I get "press releases", I expect that those articles are clearly "link bait". Though I never asked to be given a press release. It just happened.

Managing press releases is a whole nuther learning curve and another topic altogether. But I always post the press releases on RCG and not my personal blog. I don't draw the attention to me personally, as I consider it a "journalist status" to get an "embargoed press release".

I expect to be "accused" of using that status as link bait, I would also have put the article on my blog vs. Dustin's. But that is NOT when I was accused of link baiting at all.

I was accused of link baiting by consumers when I posted in the manner highlighted in this article, which was viewed as intentional. Dustin just laughed because he knew I was just testing our my new found skill of linking period. When I learned HOW to link, I went overboard with the new blogtoy. Clearly I wasn't intentionally link baiting...I was too much of an amateur at linking to even have considered it at the time.

See I guess we have a difference of opinion on linkbaiting. To me and most other SEO's linkbaiting is nothing to be ashamed or "accused of". It is generally something you put on your site, whether it be content or some sort of widget or tool, that is either interesting enough or controversial enough to attract links. It does not need to be promotional at all, it could simply be a great article that does not even mention you or your site. Since it is on your site or blog though people will link to it.

Press releases are not really linkbait IMO. They can and will attract links but they are there for purely promotional purposes. If anything you could be accused of SPAM for the PR you placed on someone elses blog but SPAM and linkbait are two very different things. BTW I am not saying you SPAMMED, I am just trying to clarify linkbait a bit more.

Matt Cutts, who is the lead engineer for the Google anti-spam team, has said linkbait is fine and a good way to attract links.

Anonymous nasties will be deleted. I'm going to a home inspection...happy? If you want to leave a nasty...leave your real traceable name with it.

My clients are often in the tech industry. Microsoft and Google employees. I think their opinion is top on my list, not someone trying to sell services to agents. No offense intended, but really. Which should I listen to?

Seriously though, aren't we talking about someone doing the exact same thing in their blog that is done on the front page of Active Rain? I mean, when you think about it, we are offered"snippets" of blogs and a link to go read the rest of the blog if we are interested in reading more. Naturally, this is an interesting topic and many followed the link and are reading and discussing your topic. What makes it different to do the same thing within the confines of the blog itself? I'm not trying to be difficult, just personally seeing it as the same thing. By the way, I haven't even tried these tactic to date, but it's an interesting concept....LOL in all honesty.... so I'm learning here the pro's and con's of doing just that in the future.... or not.

~Sharon

Ardell;

Now, you have done it! 214 comments- and a lot of dust.

"My clients are often in the tech industry. Microsoft and Google employees. I think their opinion is top on my list, not someone trying to sell services to agents. No offense intended, but really. Which should I listen to?"

None taken. Of course, you should listen to yourself and your clients.

As I have read your post and a lot of the comments, what came up for me is to first try to identify the quality of Bate & Switch-meaning what kind of a person would you have to be (like a judgement) to be involved in Bate & Switch. The activity itself and then the conversation. What I came up with is "devious". And then knowing, that us human beings live in duality; what would be the opposite of "devious"? that would being "direct" (like what you see is what you get). Now, keep in mind that one doesn't exist without the other (cant's eliminate devious or there would be no direct and vice verse). The best we can hope for is to keep it in BALANCE! Now, I hope most of us can admit to ourselves that we all have some deviousness within us, LOL. Hopefully this will settle some of that dust.

To Your Success,

Coach Steve

Nice post!

Ardell, reading the link you provided on link bait, I would have to say your choice of words "bait and switch" are wrong. Words mean something and I think "switch" is where the problem is. I agree with the link, it should be called "bait and hook", as you are baiting the line, and once they click on the link the reader took the hook. Switch implies deceit, and I think that is a reason so many are having a problem. There is no deceit as the link usually says something to the effect "to read the rest, click here".

Holy cow! 216 comments before mine. What a hot topic! So I will add my 2 cents before I go read the comments.

I do not like it when I start to read a post and then get redirected elsewhere. Sometimes I just do not have the time to be taken to the other site. So unless the post is super fascinating, I will abandon it.

I really do not like the bait and switch or bait and hook (as Jennifer Kirby calls it). Just give me the full story please. Give me the gift of time.

Ardell- To answer your earlier question, I'm 35 and I have short nails. :)

Whether or not it's bait and switch we can agree to disagree. My thought is we're too "serious" about blogging. Not that it shouldn't be taken seriously. But come on. There are more important things in life.

Debi,

Thanks for the comment on the nails! I needed a break from link bait.

wow, I honestly don't get this.... This is the internet, we have a BACK button, we surf, we roam, we jump around. This is something that someone can simply do or not do, but to imply that it is trickery, insidious or any other malicious trap is honestly ridiculous and petty. I can't believe that 200 + (me being one of them) have chosen to be allowed to be LURED into this conversation when we could be, as Kevin rightly states, be BLOGGING SOLID CONTENT for our readers, reading great Industry Posts were we LEARN something or WRITING helpful POSTS where we share something. If the intent is not malicious, why make it out to be? Come on guys, let's just move on with our lives in a positive, supportive fashion, that is for me, the reason I belong to and take part in Active Rain, not this level of senseless provocation.

LOL

This is pretty crazy. I never saw so many comments before.

I do like the bait and hook term instead of bait and switch. But who likes being hooked and pulled around?

To me, the method makes the post on ActiveRain nothing more than an advertisement for the other blog. If I remember right, advertisement posts don't get points. I think that this would be a good policy. If you have to go to another site to get the full story, then it should be considered an advertisement and no points should be awarded. If you want points, give us the whole story right here.

Tim,

I think my mission is accomplished in that people will not do it as often or take it so lightly as they have in recent weeks. I'm not saying never do it. I'm saying it's getting out of hand as an almost everytime event for some people.

Where it's AR or points or not...the concept shouldn't be abused.

JUN

2007

I totally agree with Janie. I also agree that it is not bait & switch. When I read the link for link bait it did not elude to being deceitful, using tactics, or manipulating as Ardell stated. Yes, it is a baitlink - nothing else.

So whether right or wrong to use it is up to the AR gods to decide. But please do not put me (and other agents) into a "classification" without knowing who we are and our work ethics. Let the rain gods make this a big deal or not. Thanks.

Not sure what any of it has to do with "Rain Gods". How many "Rain Gods" are there?

Ardell,

After reading about 80 of the comments and surrendering...

I agree with you when you say a post should be "complete" in and of itself.

Give me a coherent and complete thought, and I don't mind a link to deeper detail. I just don't click it if I don't want to.

Cut me off mid-paragraph in the middle of a thought? "READ MORE?" GRRRRR. I don't do those "READ MOREs" and I think less of the post. I have seen too many where I am redirected to a slow-loading page, have to click a few times to find the topic, get pop-ups, have to register, "can't display page," that I just don't bother unless the topic is really compelling.

I want a stand-alone post on a topic, with options for further detail.

But that's just me.

Mike,

Thanks for "the GRRRRR". Anything that potentially angers someone is not good marketing.

Ardell - Thank you for posting appropriately. Nothing bothers me more than being distracted several times by links pulling me away from what I was trying to read. I see the link is there. I'll click on it if I want to read further. I don't want to feel manipulated into a bait and switch and when I do, I disregard the content completely. I've found more success with speaking & writing clearly. If people are interested, they engage in a further discussion. I call it meaningful communication.

The fact that blogging helps maximize in web search isn't a top priority for me. I do consider it. However, my business is built from relationships with people that involves understanding a message clearly (listening), getting to know someone, then choosing to work with people I like, trust, and respect, This seldom comes from an internet search. It comes from meeting people, both in person and through a blog network.

Excellent point, Melissa. By NOT using my blog articles as SEO tools, people DO meet me (in person) when reading my blog articles. They see me, not some sham techniques to manipulate. And if you use these techniques, then that is what you say you ARE. It says something about who you are and how you work, when you blog to manipulate.

I know many don't like that message, but it's true. Blogging is a glimpse at who you are and how you work.

Ardell - I always like to think if you want to point out a problem, be ready to offer some ideas toward a solution. You have a great point and written well, including a solution. Perhaps some of the readers who complain about this post really don't understand everything you're trying to say?.

Brad Carroll - Real Estate Web Designer of Raleigh, NC just wrote A New Wave of Reciprocal Links that Actually Works! If I understood him correctly (I'm no techie), he's saying something similar.....that writing this way doesn't work. Because it's posted in a logical fashion with no opinion makes me wonder if that explains the difference in the way people respond.

I was just referred to a Realtor for new business. He didn't seem very interested in anything I had to say or could offer him. He was rude and short with me on the phone. When I thanked him for calling and wished him well, he didn't want to hang up. He told me he was waiting for me to say what he wanted to hear. When I asked him what that was, he said for me to "send him referrals". His behavior reminded me of someone standing on the street holding their hand out asking for money. I replied with that was a "given", but I'm here to earn my business and meet people I enjoy working with. Because someone had suggested I meet him, I still asked if I could bring coffee by his office, and he agreed. He couldn't believe I still came to meet him after the way he treated me. When he met me he was impressed with my professionalism and willing to discuss business. I never had any desire to do business with him. I just wanted him to learn that thinking inside the box and taking cheep shortcuts won't get you anywhere.......at least with the right people anyhow.

How do they say.....you can lead the horse to water, but you can't make it drink. Sincerity and Integrity are characteristics, they can't be faked. People lacking in them generally take the easy way out.

Ardell, thank you again.

JUN

2007

I agree with you. I never click on the read more here button because I don't want to go there.

Melissa,

I appreciate your taking the time. Agents talk about raising the bar, but they want to point fingers and not look in thw mirror to accomplish that. I will never gat the logic in that.

I think even when people do click it, they feel kinda duped for having done so.

Wow...The way i see it you racked up 500 points on this one so the blog must have worked. Great job and keep up the good work.

Doug

Thanks Douglas! That's one way to look at it :)

JUN

2007

Basically... you baited us. :)

WELL SAID Kansas City. Kudos to you.

I may have baited ya...but I didn't switch ya.

Great words....in many ways, it should reflect 100% as your capability and follow through in Real Estate or lending

JUN

2007

Interesting perspective.

I have done the "click here" thing because I don't want to post duplicate content on two different blogs.

Fortunately everyone has the option to "don't do that".

BTW, I did not check the "Notify me of new comment" option.

Jim,

Clearly you are well known in the real estate world that involves you, and your don't have to worry so much about how someone might percieive your "click here" as the new apprentice bloggers for whom this was written. They are building their blogs, and credibility is key, for them. I would not ever presume to tell "Jim Lee" how to do anything. I'm not "the Coach of you" nor are you an Apprenctice in Project Blogger.

Often with activerain I feel like I just did not get invited to the party and again I just read this blog and have no idea what the big deal is? I though the purpose of blogging was to get the consumer to want to explore our personal websites and/or email or call us because of our knowledge?

Rebecca,

Your website is a link in the sidebar. You write articles on your blog, they like you, then the go to the sidebar and read your other blogs and visit your website.

That's different then telling them two lines of an article here, and then a click here to finish that takes you there.

JUN

2007

With all do respect, I disagree. You yourself have stated you blog to get business and your INTENT is for your clients to take the extra step with either an additional click or phone call to you.

I like to direct traffic to my site because it has more functionality, contains more information and is much easier to navigate.

Additionally, Bait-N-Switch would only apply if they were getting something different than advertised. In my humble opinion, Active Rain is not the Holy Grail, getting prospective clients to give you business and you as a professional providing ethical and extraordinary service is the Holy Grail.

Also, I'm have found some of the best resources on the web through this method.

JUN

2007

Tony,

Many people read blogs via rss feed, not by "surfing the web" and clicking around.

HOLY CRAP--this was long. ARDELLE: You know how to stir a pot. I bet you're a great cook!

Ardell - Yes, I also read numerous blogs via RSS feed, however I have found countless resources by clicking through to another site. I personally have no problem with it and you do. My wife likes cutting up her apple with a knife before eating it, for me it's too cumbersome. Bottom line, we both like apples, however getting a knife and cutting it into quarters every-time is not my cup of tea...it's simply a matter of preference, much like providing a link to an outside blog. It however is not Bait-N-Switch.

Tony,

In the context of this post, which is Project Blogger and the Apprentices, the posts in Active Rain being directed to the new Apprentice blogs outside of Active Rain, to the tune of just about every post IS bait and switch. It was the intended purpose of the AR post to drive traffic to the outside blog with the bait on the AR blog and the switch to the outside blog. Bait them here and switch them there was the stated and intended purpose.

That is not to say every link has that intent and objective.

But as a Coach of Project Blogger, it is my duty and obligation to offer my opinion on this topic. If an entire AR blog says MORE than the AR blog is simply a bait blog. Clearly that is rude to the "hosts" of AR.

JUN

2007

Ardell... I've never been comment number 250 before. I like how it feels. But I'm not going to tell people I was comment number 250. No. If anyone asks, "Hey, did you read ARdell's post about bait and switch?" I'm going to say, "Yes. I was the quarter thousandth comment."

Say that five times fast.

Jeff....I can't even say it! remember the accent?

OMG...Is this thread still ALIVE!! Someone KILL IT!

JUN

2007

Bang, it's dead...at least until someone else resurrects it from the dead. Best of luck with project blogger and may your find your future blogging very profitable. Regards - Tony

AUG

2007

Absolutely true! In the end most clients are choosing us because of who we are...

AUG

2007

I would never have thought that consumers would even know how to recognize link-baiting. I'm so CONFUSED!!! Most people seem to be blogging for SEO purposes on their personal site, in which case, link-baiting seems like it would drive more traffic making your site seem more relevant. Are you actually getting business from your AR blog? Or do you find that more relators read your blogs here? HMMM now thinking about that, I could see more consumers reading blog posts in different areas of the site, like community pages. In that case, it would make sense to link-bait only articles geared toward other agents. Right? After all, they all seem to be in it for the SEO traffic and linking, and I wouldn't think they would be as sensitive to the true motives as a consumer would. Please let me know your thoughts on this thinking.

AUG

2007

Christopher,

I get my business from outside blogs,not Active Rain. If you bait and switch a blog, do you also bait and switch in your real estate business? Most would draw that conclusion and avoid doing business with someone who bait and switches anywhere. You can't blog FOR SEO traffic. Sure SEO is important, but you don't blog FOR that reason or blog to overly attract it at the expense of being credible. If all here did that, the Search Engines would penalize ALL AR participants. Not worth the risk.

AUG

2007

Ardell, I definitely see your point.

I'm new to the blogging world, and trying to learn from some of the more veteran bloggers. I saw Dustin Luther recently speak, and his AR blog seems to focus heavily on blogging for SEO and every one of his bloggs seem to make you link to RCG in order to read the complete article.

It seems the experts are even at odds.

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