zoPlease stop this zombie behavior.  Government doesn't create wealth, it devours it like a zombie devours all that is living.  Do you know what happens to zombies?  They devour everything living until there is nothing living anymore....then they die, too.

Government home buyer tax-credits are bribes.  They're bribes to get unwilling and unsophisticated home buyers to purchase assets which may be artificially inflated.  Haven't we learned enough from the mistakes of Government's social engineering in the mortgage markets?  The social engineering associated with the Community Reinvestment Act inflated a real estate bubble which popped and ruined families' opportunity to create a reliable nest-egg from equity in their homes.  It started off slowly and accelerated when expanded to encompass most any sub-prime loan.  The Government-provided backstop for losses encouraged market participants (banks and non-depository lenders) to make mortgage loans with complete disregard for the borrowers' abilites to repay those loans.  

madoffGovernment intervention to entice asset purchases creates a pyramid scheme which ultimately leaves someone holding the bag.  Like Bernard Madoff did with unsuspecting investors, the National Association of REALTORs attempts to start a new Ponzi scheme based upon a Government incentive.  Someone's gonna get left holding the bag for this scheme; most likely our children.

We are in the midst of the largest "right pricing correction" of our lifetimes.  The existing housing decline, driven by the failure of the unsustainable, poor lending practices (foreclosures) is healthy.  Free markets reward prudent use of leverage and punish the irresponsible.  Many people trusted mortgage consultants and real estate agents to advise them to eschew bad business practices and make prudent purchase decisions.  Instead, we nursed on the milky teat of a Government-sponsored Ponzi scheme destined to fail.

Fail is what the extended tax credit will do.  The initial first-time home buyer tax credit was an interest-free, loan from the US Treasury.  While still immoral, it provided for the repayment of that loan to the Treasury.  We descended down the slippery slope of "jump starts", expanded the size of the credit, and forgave the repayment of those "loans" with the sole purpose of giving the housing INDUSTRY, not housing market, a boost.

To request further Government assistance for our industry is deplorable.  We need a housing market that relies on the principles of supply and demand rather than some cheap, two-bit hustle.  More foreclosures are coming and that will be tragic for millions of American families.  One man's tragedy, however, is another man's opportunity.  If we, as real estate agents and loan originators are to support the principles of private property ownership, free markets, and real estate as a reliable vehicle to build long-term security, we MUST do what is moral, regardless if it won't allow us to line our pockets.

Please say, "No Zombies!  I won't allow you to devour my children's flesh" and encourage your elected reprsentatives to act like sober, prudent people...

...not zombie enablers.

PS:  If you're a first-time home buyer, by all means take the tax credit but make no mistake about it, this credit REALLY wasn't for you, it was for us, the zombies in the housing industry.

Why Devouring Flesh Is Morally Wrong (and how you can stop doing it)

 
Post is included in group: First Time Homebuyer

148 Comments on Suspend the Practice Of Flesh Devouring: Let The First Time Home Buyer Tax Credit Expire

SEP
15
SEP
16
199,771 Points 19 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Government intervention got us where we are today!

Trust them!

Cradle to grave in the arms of your favorite bureaucrats, such security.

Would a politician lie?

Bill

12:26am • #2
832,146 Points 213 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Hit Router

Here!  Here! 

Bribes to unsophisticated home buyers are an obfuscation for the government's practice of putting $10 in one pocket and taking $100 out of another.

Folks that call me about the tax credit seem to believe that it amounts to a tax reduction.  It's not.  It's a redistribution.  It's favoring one group of tax payers over others. 

Pitting one group of Americans against other groups (homebuyers against others) is not helping our general outlook about the economy which is harming every single American citizen.

6:21am • #3
582,466 Points 82 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Hit Router

Brian...

We have created this mentality of only buying something something if you get something in return. And it's going to slow down any hope of recovery!

6:26am • #4
248,141 Points 3 Featured Posts Outside Blog

CLAP, CLAP, CLAP, CLAP, CLAP

We, like everyone else, want to see more activity in the housing market BUT NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF OUR FUTURE!  Let the damned market play out naturally without adding more debt to the backs of our children and grandchildren!

6:27am • #5
517,474 Points 52 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

YES!  I may be onf of the "few" that "get it".  One of the reasons why our inventory is so low is because of the tax credit.  We need some more inventory for people who want to buy, not for people who want to get a tax credit!

I may be a little "out there" with that explanation but there are lots of people who want to buy a home to have a home.  They aren't buying for the tax credit and they can't get into a home due to the inventory sit.

I hope they let it GOOOOOOOOOO

6:42am • #6
138,656 Points 14 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

I'd rather see a break in credit score drops for those that have legitimate hardship, offering them the ability to assist in correcting the market in a shorter time frame (buying again, when their situation improves) than a continuation/dragging out of an inevitable outcome. Great post- let the market correct itself. Natural correction, not induced correction.

6:47am • #7
212,473 Points 19 Featured Posts Outside Blog Hit Router

Brian,

The government is creating a mentality in some where they won't purchase without an incentive. Some day soon, the bill will come due for all this largess.

Rich

7:00am • #8

Now that's a perspective that I've never thought of.  While I'm against Government interventions, I thought the tax credit WAS a good thing.  Now I'm rethinking that.  I don't think they should extend it.  I personally don't believe that the credit has made any difference. 

7:04am • #9
288,688 Points 52 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Hit Router

Gosh Brian, are you suggesting that people should actually work for a living????

That's no way to get elected. ;)

7:09am • #10
479,909 Points 151 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Brian...   you kind of beat me to this new blog, after reading Loreena's and Lane's blogs last night, and also reading your comments. You put this in good perspective, something that I have been arguing about since day one. Just last week, I was accused of supporting this tax credit and I had to laugh, yet I was angered. I told the person from day one, when the first several blogs came out, I was opposed to this gov't intervention. But, at the same time, since it was out there, that I would help any borrower obtain a mortgage. And I still wrote about the tax credit being out there, helping first time homebuyers. It's amazing how people try to put a spin on things, to make you look bad or bring you down. Overall, I just fear for our lives and our children's lives down the road and you put an exclamation point on top of this. Good job. I am still going to write about this, because I have another spin to this, something else to share. Maybe the combination of your blog, Lane's blog, and my blog will help open some eyes.  thanks for the post.

jeff belonger

7:15am • #11

Sooner is better than later ! For sure is better than maybe. I say we extend it thru 2010 !

7:18am • #13

Thank You!  I agree wholeheartedly. One more government program and I may barf.  I'm tired of the government "stepping in" to save people.  It's time to start cutting some government tentacles.  But here's the problem...that's how they get the votes to keep them in office.  And, most people wouldn't dream of having someone hand them $200 for their vote, but they sure don't mind getting government money!  Lets call it like it is.  Large Scale Bribery

7:24am • #14
248,141 Points 3 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Here is an idea for all the folks who can't afford to buy a house without the $8,000 credit -

Buy a house that cost $8,000 less than the one you are looking at that you can only afford with the handout from all your neighbors (and your neighbor's children and grandchildren).

Living within your means... What a concept!

7:25am • #15
567,787 Points 95 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Hit Router

(((clapping))) (((grinning)))

I agree stop the insanity.

7:28am • #16

Oh please!  It's a bit much to blame the crumbling of the economy on government's tax credit, don't you think?  Especially when the tax credit is working!   It's really doing a great job to clear some of the dead weight inventory that are in the states hardest hit with foreclosures and short sales.  The reality is our industry drove people to buy homes.  You forget that after 9/11, the fed dropped the interest rates to nothing.  It was far to easy to get loans at 0% interest, starting with the auto industry.  Then it went to credit card rates.  O% interest on balance transfers.  It was way to easy to get credit.  The easiest way to build wealth in this country was to buy real estate.  The American dream, right?  Bush declared that every American should be a home owner.  Who were we to say no?  Lending institutions got greedy by extending loans to those who couldn't afford them, and wouldn't at other times even been close to qualifying.  Making more homeowners than at any point in American history.  Supply and demand created over-inflated prices on property.  Home prices were rising 20%  per year in some cases.  We advertised interest only loans...  We had adjustable arms...  100% financing...  50 year mortgages.  Oh, you don't have a dime, Mr. Potential Homebuyer??  That's okay, we can finance you with no money down, and we'll ask the seller to pay for closing costs...  Shoot, the seller will not take anything but a full price offer...  Don't worry, we can just raise the contract price and then the difference will be used to pay the closing costs.  In a couple years, just refinance at a fixed rate.  That will take care of your concern that your interest on that adjustable mortgage will double your payment...  Credit card bills out of control??  Why not refinance them into your mortgage...  We did this to ourselves.  Not the government.   How soon we forget...  Our industry got too big for it's britches, and in return for the greed, the financial markets collapsed.  Now you want to blame the government for extending a $8000 tax credit to help get the excess inventory off the market and to normalize housing prices?  I think you are putting the blame on the wrong people.  It's Wall Street, not Washington that created this mess.  It was all good, though, while it was happening.  Bubble?  What bubble?  Alan Greenspan, the economic genius that he is, just months before the collapse told us not to worry... So why would we? We were dillusional to think it would last forever.  Let's just take the blame like real adults and stop blaming our government.

7:37am • #17
604,946 Points 244 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

Brian, One way or another the money will be spent. Why not give it to a Buyer? I am not for hand outs but would much rather see this money go into the hands of the public than be given to the banks, auto companies, airlines, politicians etc etc etc.

This tax credit is the ONLY thing the government has done that has had any kind of success with stimulating the housing market. Whether the credit is right or wrong the bottom line is that a strong housing market is the BEST way to pull us out of the reccession.

Next we need to mandate a standardized solution to the short sale problem. Standardized procedures, forms, time lines etc..

My market was one of the hardest hit in the country with more than a 15% foreclosure rate. Values wnet down almost 70%. About 6 months ago my market turned a corner and properties are now flying off the shelves. Inventory is down 50%. BUT.....it is being bought by foreign investors. The tax credit is keeping Americans in houses. Without it I'll be eating blood puddin' and sweet breads in the very near future :)

This is not a moral issue. It's a financial issue.

7:44am • #18
245,598 Points 1 Featured Post Outside Blog

I tend to be of the same opinion.  Certainly it is great to see sales pickup, but the long-term cost on our country is probably not worth it.

7:45am • #19
248,141 Points 3 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Aaron,

Where did anyone assign blame?  There is plenty of "blame" to go around.  We are discussing whether or not the first time homebuyer tax credit is something that will improve the situation.  Some think that it will while others do not.  Each is explaining their reasons for their position.

7:47am • #20
384,086 Points 2 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

I can not agree with you at all. It is nice to see our tax money working for something that helps people. Now we could agrue that it would be nicer to have the tax money not go to the government. But given the need to govern and tax is the way govt supports itself this program to me is nothing but good

7:47am • #21
4 Featured Posts

give me something for nothing, or pay me to buy.

with a usda loan, if the appraisal will bare it, then you can still essentially get a no out of pocket 100% loan. throw in the tax credit and you have now been paid by the gov to purchase the house.

what a country, you gotta love it.

7:51am • #22

Hmmm, I don't know Tim and Susan...   did you read the post?  It seemed to me he's blaming our current economy on the government.  Which part of the post isn't blaming the govenment?

7:55am • #23

Excellent post. The tax credit should not be extended.

8:00am • #24

If the "Cash for Clunkers" program is any indication, we are headed for deeper trouble. The government is dragging it's feet about re-imbursing dealers, who are sitting with empty lots because they don't have money to buy more inventory until the government re-imburses them! And now that people have bought cars, car sales for the rest of the year will be even worse. And I am hearing that people who bought new cars with cash for clunkers are already losing them because they can't afford the payment.

A year form now will foreclosures be even worse because people are buying homes to get the tax credit, then discover they can't afford the home?

8:14am • #25
Outside Blog

I am completely with you although there is another featured post and I was surprised to see that most people want things to continue with govt handouts

8:49am • #26
226,646 Points 1 Featured Post Outside Blog

I do wonder if buyers will actually get the credit.  Its seems like the buyers I am working with now are going after the credit but wont be heart broken if they dont get it...they dont want to pay too much...you just have to represent your buyer and let them know what will be best for them either way.

9:07am • #27
248,141 Points 3 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Government handouts are nothing more or less than an act of taking money from some people and giving it to other people. 

If the conress showed up at our doors with a band of armed soldiers and demanded that we hand over "x" amount of our hard earned cash so that they could give it to someone else who wants to buy a house we would all call that theft but under the current system we call it a "tax credit".

Eventually the "government" will run out of other people's money and then what?  Oh, wait.... that's already happened (they just print more and put it on our tab).

9:08am • #28
Outside Blog
I agree, isn't "helping" too much what got this mess started. If we make it so easy to buy a home that anyone can afford it then anyone will buy, including those that really shouldn't. As agents we should consider that not everyone who buys a home shouldn't necessary purchase and maybe not to the max of their preapproval letter.
9:13am • #29
Outside Blog

Excellent post, Brian!!!!!!!!!!!  I completely agree with you.  Enough with the handouts!!

9:16am • #30

Good post.  The tax credit has helped to stabilize that segment of the market.  Maybe it is time to move on to the next problem, higher end homes and condos.   I wonder how many short sales will go back on the market on December 1st?  It will be intersted to see. 

9:16am • #31
258,734 Points 102 Featured Posts Outside Blog

One way or another the money will be spent. Why not give it to a Buyer?

I have a better idea, reduce the size and scope of Government and stop spending money.  Certainly don't take it from Peter so that Paul can save his real estate business.   Bryant, I get that it's helping us but that is not a justification for theft.

The Fennell's say it better here:

If the Congress showed up at our doors with a band of armed soldiers and demanded that we hand over "x" amount of our hard earned cash so that they could give it to someone else who wants to buy a house we would all call that theft but under the current system we call it a "tax credit".

This is not a moral issue. It's a financial issue.

Of course it's a moral issue.  When you take from all to support a favored class of people (in this case, REALTORS and originators), it's immoral.

 It seemed to me he's blaming our current economy on the government.

Aaron, you're actually quite astute.  I'm blaming the last 80 years on the growth of Government and its march towards collectivism.

Do you realize we have NEVER seen a true, free market in our lifetime?  We've been rigging the game, as we march towards a planned economy, since the 30s.  This march towards a planned economy makes slaves out of all of us.  Look at how pathetic we've become, begging for scraps from our masters, regardless of whom will be hurt. 

9:23am • #32
4 Featured Posts

Brian-

It's always interesting to see a dissenting or contrarian voice here on AR. I'm not sure where I lie on the issue, although I tend to share fiscally-conservative sympathies, but I am happy to add your well-articulated argument to the mess that is my decision making process.

9:32am • #33
1 Featured Post Outside Blog

Hi Brian ~ I didn't comment on either of the posts yesterday, because I simply am not sure what to think. I know the credit has helped. I'm not sure whether it needs to be continued. In Iowa City we're not having as tough a time as other places, (see Bryant's comment), so I think the government needs to look at the bigger picture before making the call.

 

I do tend to agree with Clayton and his views on this..."The tax credit has helped to stabilize that segment of the market. Maybe it is time to move on to the next problem, higher end homes and condos". I really could not have said this better myself.

Denise

9:33am • #34
193,163 Points 64 Featured Posts Outside Blog

There is validity in what you are saying. I am seeing some things that I don't like with the tax credit but I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea so I won't expound on that.  The billions we are spending each month on war are bothering me. I do support out troops so please don't read anything un-American into what I just wrote.

Nice to see you so consistently writing on the blood hound and here on active rain. You always have my respect.

9:37am • #35

Flesh eating Zombies?...that's certainly an attention grabbing headline.

And that is what the $8000 tax credit has been...an attention grabber! It has motivated some people to look...to consider...and for some, to buy a home.

Home ownership is a good thing on so many levels. It stabilizes communities, provides tax base for community services, stimulates the local economy and increase personal wealth.

The people buying these homes will contibute much more than the $8000 over the life of their purchase and that's not a bad thing!

9:38am • #36
258,734 Points 102 Featured Posts Outside Blog

I do support out troops so please don't read anything un-American into what I just wrote.

Haha!  We're all "un-American" in the eyes of the Masters, at one time or another- it just depends on the Master. Nice to see you, T.

9:41am • #37
238,214 Points 5 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Brian,

I do not see congress extending this. They are focusing now on giving away money for healthcare.

9:59am • #38
1 Featured Post

Broker Bryant-

Im right with you. You see, the restrictions on buyers now are tremendous...if this goes bad it wasnt because the government through money at people. Thats MY OPINON. nothing more.

Oh.. their not throwing GOOD MONEY at BAD PEOPLE. Their trying to stimulate the economy. (and its working)

 

 

10:10am • #39

I agreed - it's time for the hand to be slapped out of the cookie jar. When the tax credit is over...its over.

10:31am • #40
103,050 Points 3 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

Brian - Tell us how you REALLY feel.  I mean, come on, all of this wishy washy horsetalk really accounts for NOTHING!!!  lol - I agree with you - let the tax credit expire!

10:52am • #41
Outside Blog

Brian, Kudos!  Good to see some folks here on AR that aren't just selling RE for selling sake.  Why buy now to save $8k when you can wait til the credit is over & save more.  It's created a feeding frenzy here and created another mini bubble.  I try to tell buyers this, but most don't listen...they just want their "free" money.  Agents are using it as a "buy now or miss out used car selling approach, & it really stinks! " 

 

11:45am • #42
2 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor

You might not know it but I am giving you a standing ovation right now!!!

11:55am • #43
2 Featured Posts

Brian ~ I agree, mostly with your redistribution of wealth comment.  If the govenment is going to give tax breaks, then why not to ALL homebuyers!  Not that I agree with this program, but it is what it is until it expires.  This is where this country has been headed for a generation or more. Although we almost seemingly had a handle on spending controls when the Welfare-to-Work program was implemented and became successful, but somewhere somehow, capitalistic greed under socialist control re-created Brian's "Zombie"  

There are many good points and counter points here and that is what makes this country so great, but sometimes we all have a tendancy to argue about something until it becomes moot, and all the while the focus is turned away from what really matters. Has anyone noticed the rate at which the national debt and the interest on that debt is increasing?  I seen a calculation recently that just the interest on the debt was increasing at a rate of over $3.88 Billion per day and is probably a lower-than-true number just since I finished typing it.  Just Google "National Debt" and click on the link to the  "Debt Cock".  This should put any and all arguments about frivilous government spending to rest.

The Gov just needs to stop the bleeding (spending) because the interest on our national debt is simply incomprehensible. Drop all the ridiculous social safety nets and lets just all get back to work....even if it means taking our construction jobs back!  I'm glad work ethic is a totally different blog topic.

I almost feel undignified by saying maybe I won't be around long enough to have to REALLY participate in paying the price for this mess, as I'm planning on retiring one day and I will gladly give my current share of the national debt (plus interest) of $38,433.81 to some unborn citizen!

This is the road upon which we all travel.

12:42pm • #44

I totally agree with Broker Bryant.  It is almost funny to hear this from a loan originator.  I do agree that the tax credit should be extended.  It is my opinion that it is better to give the moneies to the people who can stimulate the economy instead of the banks who seem to be tightening things for the consumer, yet loosening the purse strings for their CEO's.  If we give the money to the consumer they are more apt to spend and stimulate it than the banks.

1:13pm • #45
5 Featured Posts

The people who can "stimulate the economy" are not the people who can only afford to buy a home with an $8,000 credit!  These people should be renting.  Rental dollars paid create taxable revenues for landlords, who buy properties to rent them out.  When there are not enough renters out there, investment properties sit empty and then get foreclosed upon.

I totally agree that the people who currently own homes need to be protected with ways to help them keep their homes, and not add more homebuyers into the mix.  With credit card companies around the country "analyzing" their credit risks and upping the minimum payment on credit card offers that once bore 0% or 3.99% "for the life of the loan", responsible people are being forced into economic hardship and this is creating a domino effect on the credit ratings of these poor souls - which in turn will trigger calls on home equiy loans and minimum balance requirements. 

If the government's "social engineering" would stop meddling in my business, I'll make my payments just fine.  But if you fiddle with the recipe, you are going to make a mess out of things. 

1:46pm • #46
Outside Blog

I have to be honest, I can't tell you whether or not I think the tax credit was a good idea or if it's a good idea to extend. I'm not wishy washy with here's my take:

1. It has helped to reduce the inventory level and get things moving.

2. I think it should have been opened to all buyers to help generate more activity for the higher priced inventory.

3. I don't feel that the gov't is throwing money to people who are going to be the next wave of foreclosures in a few years, because of the tighter credit guidelines the buyers have to meet.

4. It has helped my bottom line by selling more houses.

5. I'd rather see it go to homebuyers than banks.

6. I do not like the fact that the gov't is spending money like it's growing on trees. Ok, for them, I guess it does grow on trees!

Alright, I like lists, sorry! It does seem that I'm for it, but my last point, I really feel strong about.

1:47pm • #47

I don't think they should extend it, but as long as it's here I have no problem promoting and using it to sell homes. 

1:59pm • #48

I think your complaint is more with taxation in general than this specific credit. 

We know that this money will be used somewhere in an attempt to boost the economy; why shouldn't it go to boost housing rather than corporate bailouts?  It seems to me that if we all have to pitch in to fix this mess, I'd rather my money go directly towards improving the lives of the middle class rather than corporations. 

Like everyone else, I'm opposed to buying outside of your means.  I think that's a different issue (and HUGE problem!) entirely. 

2:09pm • #49

Should I assume that the people who are against the tax credits persuaded your buyers not to use them

and if the tax credits are extended, you still will persuade your buyers not to use them?  Also, if your buyers

took advantage of the tax credits, did you feel like a hypocrite or did you feel like you were contributing to

stimulating the economy?

Audrey Syphoe
2:26pm • #50
212,973 Points

It has been a good thing for the buyers I have worked with.  They all had down payments and easily got loans.  The tax credit just helped put them in a healthier position for their first home and made the decision a little easier.

Kathy

 

2:34pm • #51
117,646 Points 2 Featured Posts Outside Blog

I know that we need to get off the government teet but is November 30th the right time? There will be a drop off of low end sales after it expires. Just like cash for clunkers the rebate has moved up time lines for people who most likely would have purchased later down the line.

At some point the market will need to stand on its own 2 feet. Ever since 9/11 we have been propping up housing in 1 form or another. Is November 30th too soon?

2:44pm • #52
604,946 Points 244 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

Brian, My job these days is working within a broken system. I closed 13 transactions in July and made less than $20,000. Values are so low I can barely make a living. I am certainly not part of a " favored class of people". In fact like most people in our industry I'm just a honest hard working person trying to help people buy and sell real estate. The tax credit has not added one cent to my bank account. And I'm sure I'm not alone.

OUR government has been pissing away our money since well before I was born over a half century ago. BUT it's still the best system on the planet. Foreign investors are swooping down on real estate because they feel safe having their money over here.

There are mnay folks in my market who would not be able to purchase without the tax credit. They would have to continue being tenants. By the time they are able to buy they will be priced out of the market.....again.

In an ideal world I would not have to pay any taxes and could pay for private services as I need them but we dont live in an ideal world.

"Of course it's a moral issue.  When you take from all to support a favored class of people (in this case, REALTORS and originators), it's immoral."

Morality as you define it is a personal opinon. Nothing more and nothing less. You can base morals on many different things. If I were to use biblical morals then it is my OBLIGATION to share everything and distribute everything evenly as long as everyone who is able is working to do their part.

Morality is thrown around way to loosely these days. More times than not it's a judgmental term used to strengthen our own individual opinions. A perfect example is GSs recent comments stating that requiring registration on a web site was immoral. Unfortunately the word has lost its weight.

The $8,000 tax credit may be foolish but it is certainly not immoral.

Now having said all this, I was all for letting the economy right itself without government intervention.  Unfortunately that didn't happen for reasons beyond my comprehension. The money press was fired up and dollars were thrown at the problems. The problem was it was thrown in the wrong direction. It should have been thrown at the consumer from the get go. And not with stupid little tax rebates but with large chunks of mortgage debt being bought down. The money should have never been given to the entities that started this mess in the first place...the banks. Who by the way are still sitting on it.

So how about lenders provide first time homebuyers with an $8,000 credit?

3:22pm • #53
248,141 Points 3 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Does anyone really need an $8000 (or whatever amount) tax credit to be able to buy a house?  For the life of me, I cannot fathom the scenario in which this would be a need.  A nice perk perhaps, but not a need.

If a person cannot afford to buy a house without his neighbors chipping in $8000 to assist him then I would argue that he simply cannot afford to buy a house... period.

The fact is that anyone who wants to buy a house can do it the same way we have all bought them in the past (and I mean before 100% loans and various "incentives").  The process is really fairly simple:

  • Keep your credit clean.
  • Save enough money for a reasonable downpayment (3% - 3.5%) plus closing costs
  • Choose a property that fits within one's budget

This idea that the only way first time buyers can buy a home is IF THEIR NEIGHBORS kick in $8000 seems like a strawman argument to me. 

I have two children in their early 20's.  I have taught them that if they want to avoid being a renter they must do all of the above. 

Oddly enough, the same people who "think" they need a "tax credit" in order to buy a house would never admit to expecting their neighbors give them the money... but that is exactly what a "tax credit" amounts to.

I would be curious to hear the details of even one person who could not have bought a house this past year had they NOT been given this "tax credit".  What is the situation that would have prevented them from buying without it? 

Someone mentioned the benefits of placing that $8K into the marketplace but that can be done in many ways that benefit every tax payer... not just first time homebuyers.  Or, better yet, just LOWER TAXES (Hint: www.FairTax.org) and allow everyone to keep more of the money we earn and spend as we see fit.

But then, I'm one of those wacky libertarian minded people who thinks that we'd be better off following the constitution and reducing the size and scope of the Federal Gov't while returning the bulk of the power to local municipalities.  I know... I know... that's crazy thinking that could never work.

Or could it?  Hmmmm......  LOL

4:02pm • #55
119,514 Points 5 Featured Posts Outside Blog

I've got to bookmark this!! For your blog and the comments!  LOVE AR!!

The $8,000 tax credit didn't apply to a lot of my clients!  They either owned property, or were in a higher tax bracket.

Of the buyers that have bought to take advantage of the credit, the SELLERS KNEW about this too!  And so there went the reduction in the list price, and/or the sellers' concessions (negotiating better terms and conditions just took a flying f' out the windown thanks to the $8,000 CARROT dangling in front of buyers!)

They don't get that . . . and since I don't have time to EXPLAIN WHY the seller isn't going for your low-ball offer, AND pay for buyers' closing costs . . . they just had to pay full price on some of these properties.

4:24pm • #56

Re: Comment #56

Carla

 

Hi Carla,

One question.  How did the sellers know your clients were first-time buyers?

 

Huh?
4:51pm • #57

Brian Brady

Hi Brian,

  I agree with your basic premise.  In a perfect world, this $8,000 tax credit would not exist.

But the REALITY of TODAY is that you and I could BOTH name lots of government spending that should be cut BEFORE a program that puts cash money in the pockets of people (first-time buyers) who are likely to go out and spend the money on engineered hardwood floors, cabinets, and bathroom upgrades.  Things that help the economy.

Cut the program?  Yes.  Especially in THEORY.  But I am sorry, killing a program that is increasing business for refrigerator makers and ceiling fan manufacturers is not really at the top of my list right of priorities right now.  Certainly not enough to go on a rant about it.

And in my market, a $8,000 tax credit that represents LESS than 5% of an overall first-time home purchase is NOT artificially driving the industry the way it apparently is in other places around the country.  Something I still find hard to believe, considering most of these people are SUPPOSEDLY getting counsel from their buyer's agents.

Huh?
5:06pm • #58
248,141 Points 3 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Response to Mr. Huh? (post #58)

How about giving an $8000 tax credit to any tax payer who buys the things you mention in post #58? I spent over $6000 on HVAC systems for two of my rental properties last year and over $12000 on a new roof for my primary residence. I won't bother listing all the other home improvement expenses I had last year. But I don't see anyone clamoring to extend a tax credit to me... nor do I want or expect one.

The point is that people will spend money that they have if they need or want things. A very few people "save" money to begin with so what is the magic in giving a handout to first time buyers (many of whom, as we all know, are not really FIRST TIME buyers but simply haven't owned a home in the last 3 years)?

As many others have pointed out, this particular "credit"  (handout) is little more than a carrot to entice people to spend their money in one particular segment of our economy over another segment.

I don't see how arguing that the government is going to drive us all into deeper debt "anyway" as being sound reasoning to support this or any other artificial spending program.

We CAN stand up and tell our politicians, "NO MORE! - STOP THE SPENDING NOW!" I am not blaming the current administration and/or congress any more than I blame most of the previous ones over the past 100 years. 

They have spent and will continue to spend as long as we the people allow them to remain in office and do it. They do it to buy votes so that they can stay in power where they are not subject to the same laws and conditions that they force upon us.

5:31pm • #59

I will offer one of the few discenting opinions on this topic.  We as a country need to get out of this Us vs. Them mentality.  We are ALL Americans.  We are ALL on the same team.  What's good for one team member is good for all of us.  The $8,000 tax credit, albeit not the only reason the real estate market has picked up, has been a significant impetus.  I have been hearing my entire life how "our children and grandchildren are going to have to pay for this...".  I'm sure my grandparents generation were saying this about a lot of the New Deal programs.  I for one am glad for the New Deal programs.  I'm glad the FDIC exists to ensure that my money in the bank is secure.  I'm glad for Medicare/Medicaid to assist the elderly with their medical needs.  I'm glad for Social Security to act as a safety net for those who may have been less fortunate or had the misfortune of the company they worked for going belly up and taking their pension with them. I'm glad for our public school systems which, although not perfect, provide free education for every American who wants it.  I'm glad for our publicly funded police and fire departments that protect us. I'm glad for our publicly funded military that keeps us safe.

You see, I hear a lot of people talking about a "free market".  A lot of people are reading Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged" these days.  I too have read it.  But I need to remind people.  IT'S FICTION!  Ayn Rand painted a scenario of corporate titans who are only concerned about creating the best product/service possible to help human kind prosper.  Sorry folks, it doesn't work like that.

I don't think many people would really enjoy what we would be considered a "free market".  It would be a very dismal world.  Look back on history and you'll find examples of "free markets".  What was central to those free markets was free labor.  Namely slavery.  And you can bet your bottom dollar that if the reins were taken off industry the first thing they would try to overturn is the minimum wage, as minimum as it is already.  From there they would be in the ears of politicians to "adjust" the labor laws.  Allowing them to hire minors (wasn't too long ago folks that this was legal), doing away with the 40 hour work week (again, not too long ago), ridding our workplace of safety rules (OSHA and other safety regulatory committees are not that old either) and allowing industry to pollute our streams, oceans, and air (the E.P.A was established as late as 1973, in my lifetime.) 

So folks, please don't naively speak of a "free market" you yourselves would very well become victims of such a market.  And I can assure you, you wouldn't like it.

5:45pm • #60
1 Featured Post

Our government needed to do something drastic to stabilize financial markets in the past year. The banking system almost collapsed in 2008, due to its own excesses. The $8000 tax credit has created some interest in buying and may have saved many of our businesses. That said, if you get the consumer hooked on incentives and rebates, you will never have a free market system. Buyers will make low ball offers, because they feel they are "owed" a great deal.

5:55pm • #61

Tim and/or Susan (post #59)

I absolutely agree with you 100% .... on paper.

But I would also agree 100%..... on paper with someone who went to the doctor and came back saying they were told to "eat healthier" and then came out with a rant about how we should all give up butterscotch candies because they were unhealthy, empty calories.   I would agree.  But I wouldn't get too worked up about demonizing the little hard candies.  Especially if the guy was still going through the drive-through to get double cheeseburgers and extra large french fries on his way back from the cigarette shop.

Make your "moral stand" on this issue.  Fine by me.  But I think there are far worse government spending programs that you could be directing your energies towards.  Spending that doesn't help us AT ALL (at least this one can depending on how the money is spent.) 

As for a tax credit to help you recover some of your HVAC systems costs--- I like it!  And I think they should also have one for "First-Time 75-inch HDTV buyers", too.....    :-)

Huh?
5:59pm • #62

Jerry Murphy (post #60)

Jerry,

  Dude.... where did YOU come from?  Great persepective, there.

  You must live in a world called.... REALITY.

  A lonely place among "free market" Realtors, from the looks of it.

 

Huh?
6:21pm • #63
144,826 Points 89 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

Brian....I just briefly looked at this featured this morning and thought what the hell? Who is that guy who wrote that? I will need to go back and read that and check him out.

Laughing...because I totally did not recognize you from your new picture. To me you will always be wearing suspenders.

Guess I am really, really super tired of debating the tax credit. Let me just say I don't think it will be extended and that in my mind is a good thing.

 

7:06pm • #64
181,315 Points 1 Featured Post

I'll be so happy to hear the last of this tax credit. What are we suposed to do "a daily count down"  Give it up and move on the the next thing....whatever it is.

Patricia Aulson/portsmouth nh homes

7:40pm • #65
579,639 Points 34 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Hit Router

Obviously you already know my opinion...  It has helped our industry, but we need to look beyond ourselves and our next deal. 

Has the market really turned, or has it just bumped because of the bribe?

7:41pm • #67
Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

It is discouraging that many REALTORS have the attitude that the money is going to be spent anyway so why not spend it on us mentality.  That is the same mentality that I observed in the military when we ran entire motor pools for 20-30 days straight running every engine in there just to burn through the "allotted" fuel.   Waste not want not people.

8:22pm • #68
258,734 Points 102 Featured Posts Outside Blog

It is discouraging that many REALTORS have the attitude that the money is going to be spent anyway so why not spend it on us mentality.

This is called flesh devouring, Damon and it IS a moral issue.  I'm being dramatic; it's actually called moral relativism and it's the easy way to a clean conscience.

Folks the mortgage market hasn't recovered BECAUSE of the gov't subsidies we've had this past year; private lenders can't compete against "the government option" and make a profit.  I know that will mean higher rates for everyone but we have to grow up and get the Government out of our lives, regardless of the short-term losses we might incur.

Until we start taking stands and stop lobbying for more flesh devouring, we're going to remain slaves, begging for scraps.

8:35pm • #69
438,664 Points 10 Featured Posts Outside Blog

This first time homebuyer tax credit is huge.  It was like writing a blank check from our children.  It is going to be a big check.

8:38pm • #70
258,734 Points 102 Featured Posts Outside Blog

A lot of people are reading Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged" these days.  I too have read it.  But I need to remind people.  IT'S FICTION! 

No...it's not.  Read Alexis de Tocqueville's Democracy in America.

Atlas Shrugged is fiction to you (and me) because we have never lived in a free society.  We have been slowly marching down the road to collectivism since the New Deal Era.  Rand's fictional account was a precursor to what happens when the zombies have devoured all the flesh. 

de Tocqueville warned us about this.

8:43pm • #71
Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

Wow, I just can't believe some of these comments.  I don't know many competent realtors who would use the tax credit to encourage an otherwise unworthy buyer to buy.  If the buyer can't afford to buy a home without an $8000 tax credit, then obviously he/she shouldn't be buying a home.

 

I find myself resonating to the comments of Shana (post 49), Audrey (post 50), Broker Bryant (post 53) AND  Jerry (post 60)

8:46pm • #72
183,055 Points 19 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

Hi Brian...I remember that my parents were able to buy their first home through a government program.  It was called the G.I. Bill of Rights. 

My father, a dad with three young children, enlisted in World War II, .  While many others that could have served stayed at home and made very good money working in the war industry my dad was in Germany doing what he thought was necessary to protect his family, others, and his country.  I was one of those three young children and I well remember when my dad was gone.  I also remember how excited we were when we had our "first" home.

A question was asked in one of the comments wanting to know who could possibly need $8,000 to buy a home.  If you are making a minimal income $8,000 can make a huge difference.  I gladly pay my taxes to help others live a better life.  Others did it for my parents family.  There is give and take in our society.  That is what makes it so great.

Kate

8:56pm • #73

I posted a similar AR blog entry earlier today when I read the NY Times article outlining the National Assn of Realtors pushing for an extension and a possible $15k credit.

Let the madness end.

9:02pm • #74
252,829 Points 2 Featured Posts Hit Router

Hi Brian -- I remember in my ECON 101 class that there is a fixed amount of money to go around and it's divided up into military and civilian uses, and there either has to be productivity growth or expenses need to be cut.  I'm not a fan of re-allocating dollars -- it happens all over the board -- special interests, large, ever-growing public programs and the list goes on.  That said, if markets are left to their own devices, the little guy will get squashed.

9:25pm • #76
Outside Blog

Dude ... you lost the election ... Obama is President ... get over it!

Personally, I just think this was just a sligtly new twist on a tired Republican theme, "Let's Assume People Who Are Poor Deserve It Because They Did It To Themselves." I mean, why build people up when it's so much easier to tear them down? 

Rich, poor, or somewhere in between, everybody helped us get into this mess. Don't blame the banks; they were just creating products to respond to a market demand. Don't blame the middle class, because it's routinely expected that no matter how much they make, they will want to spend more then they have to buy a nicer home than they can afford (I deal with short sales and foreclosures all the time, and there are a LOT of Yuppie Mansions out there that are now bank-owned). Don't blame the poor, because so many are working much harder than you ever will for much less than you make.

Blame is just an easy was to avoid personal responsibility. Why not open your mind, open your heart, and shut your mouth? Try it for just a few minutes. First of all, you will enjoy the peace and quiet, but more importantly, when you don't speak, you think. And listen. And learn.

 

9:25pm • #77

Atlas Shrugged is fiction to you (and me) because we have never lived in a free society.  We have been slowly marching down the road to collectivism since the New Deal Era.   (post #71)

 

So Brian, who HAS lived in a free society, then?  According to your criteria and definition.

Please, list your Top 5 "Successful Free Societies in History".  Please only list those historic free societies that meet your own personal qualifications.  Obviously, the United States of America isn't on your list since "we have never lived in a free society."

 

 

Brian Brady's Top 5 Successful Free Societies in History

1.

2.

3.

4.

5.

 

 

 

Huh?
9:37pm • #78

This is a great post Brian!  Keep it up.

Alexis Jameson
10:02pm • #79
470,770 Points 50 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Brian - Maybe my case is one of the selected few:

I looked up all my clients' files who qualified for this $8,000 tax credit. I am not lying (if you would believe me) that not one client was on the verge of not qualifying for loan. Again, I know I have to speak as generalization.

I did more research after we discussed on my blog and found this: Dallas News reported that based on what they could find, this tax credit was perhaps given to approximately 350,000 - 400,000 who may not have purchased in the first place. Some food for thought.

10:21pm • #80
258,734 Points 102 Featured Posts Outside Blog

 Obviously, the United States of America isn't on your list since "we have never lived in a free society."

I never said that, I said we have never lived in a free society in our lifetimes.  Read Tocqueville's Democracy in America.

Personally, I just think this was just a sligtly new twist on a tired Republican theme, "Let's Assume People Who Are Poor Deserve It Because They Did It To Themselves.

You'll have to point out where I blame the poor for our march to Collectivism. 

Why not open your mind, open your heart, and shut your mouth?

Ahh, the old shut up argument.  

Let me answer your three questions:  I have (and serially, collectivism failed), I am (which is why I wrote this), and I won't shut up (because I won't saddle my daughter with debt so that you can line your pockets)

That said, if markets are left to their own devices, the little guy will get squashed.

Example, please?

11:07pm • #81
479,909 Points 151 Featured Posts Outside Blog

@ Loreena... you wrote this...  "I looked up all my clients' files who qualified for this $8,000 tax credit. I am not lying (if you would believe me) that not one client was on the verge of not qualifying for loan. Again, I know I have to speak as generalization."

Let me ask you something....  are you telling me that every client got the money, the $8,000 tax credit, before or at closing?  Can you please make it more clear in regards to your statement, that not one of your clients that qualified for this tax credit, could qualify otherwise?  I am going some where with this... when was your first client that bought a home, because of the $8,000 tax credit?  When was the last?  And how many clients total?  thanks

jeff belonger

11:52pm • #82
Outside Blog

That is an interesting post, but I am not to clear on the credit at closing.

11:54pm • #83
SEP
17
258,734 Points 102 Featured Posts Outside Blog

I looked up all my clients' files who qualified for this $8,000 tax credit. I am not lying (if you would believe me) that not one client was on the verge of not qualifying for loan

Oh, I believe you, Loreena.  Why did they need a tax credit to buy a home?  

12:02am • #84
145,270 Points 7 Featured Posts Outside Blog

The longer we cannibalize future sales with the $8000 bait..... The more it will hurt when it is over.

Ask the auto industry how that 'Employee Pricing' worked out for them after the promotion. They couldn't give away a car for a long time.

I am not seeing that many people who NEED the money to close... I am seeing mostly people urgent to close before the deadline..... TOMORROW's BUYERS!!!!!!  And if they DO need the $8000 to close, why? They don't have savings? No reserves and they want to buy a home...... Not a good recipe for a loan that will actually perform....

 

7:56am • #86

I think we should wean ourselfs off the tax credit.  I think the credit should be reduced in half for 2010, and another half in 2011, then zero.

8:22am • #87

You have got it nailed. This is just the government providing money that artificially inflates (props up) the price of houses and will slow real long term growth that is based on sound economics of responsibility and of gaining wealth through hard work and savings. I am not supporting the NAR push to get it extended even though for the moment this benefits my pocket book. We have to start thinking long term and for future generations not spending their future on our greed today!

Craig Harding
8:22am • #88
2 Featured Posts

We're training Americans to wait for something better...

first there was the 7,500 "tax free loan"

then the 8,000 "rebate" (so everyone that bought during the 7,500 period feels ripped off)

then there was talk about increasing it to 15,000.

the message we're sending is "just wait a while with your hand out... something better will come along"

I hope they hold the expiration date of the 8,000 firm.  We need to toughen our citizens back up a little!

8:27am • #89
244,994 Points 11 Featured Posts Outside Blog

You always offer us a unique perspective Brian.

8:31am • #90
1 Featured Post Localism Sponsor

Broker Bryant says he closed 13 transactions in JULY and made less than $20k...and he can barely make a living.  $20k in a month and you're barely making it? In my market, I made less than $20k in the entire year of 2008! And you vote to keep the tax credit so you can keep 'barely making a living'? Puuleaaasseee.

Great Post! I'm sick of the government treating Americans like sheep...but I'm more sick of all the sheep! baaahhhh bahhhhhh

Right on Andy! It's 2-3 generations that have been taught to put their hand out, that the government owes them something and will take care of them. And it continues.......

8:45am • #91
Hit Router

Out of all the different areas that the Government has given money through the Stimulus/Bailout programs, A Home Buyer Tax credit makes the most sense. At least the money is put into the Public hand's to spend and actually stimulate the economy. Buying a Home or building a new Home creates a trickle down econonomic effect that helps boost hundreds of industries and actually stimulates the manufacturing and service industries. A newly built home uses hundreds of products and services in order to reach completion and even a purchase of an existing homes will touch industries ranging from Home Inspectors to Paint suppliers-especially with the large number of foreclosures being sold that generally need renovation. The cost of the Home Buyer Tax credit was very small in comparison to the Bailouts given to the Finance Industry and for the most part money given to Banks and Insurance Companies was just used to keep their doors from closing and really didn't stimulate a thing. Bailing out the auto industry saved GM and Chrystler from collapse, but how much did it really stimulate the economy. Any investment made into the Housing industry is not only well spent money put should be extended until we see the economy as a whole strengthen-probably through 2010.

Don't mean to rain on your parade, but this is what I believe as a Real Estate Broker who has been selling homes for 23 years.

 

8:51am • #92
Outside Blog

Kudos to Broker Bryant and Jerry # 60. The tax credit has stimulated our market and it IS a tax stimulus going directly to the American consumers - not the big banks! Most of my buyers qualify for the tax credit, but I have had NO ONE use it at closing. In fact, from what I'm understanding the $8000 CANNOT be used to cover the 3.5% down payment required by FHA, it can only be used for ADDITIONAL down payment if the buyer chooses. I've not had ONE buyer to utilize the credit for down payment, additional down payment, closing costs, or whatever. In fact, most of my buyers use it to cover purchasing appliances and....SAVING ( I know, a novel concept). Having said that, it do not believe that it's fair to just use it for first time homebuyers. I think that it should have included, at the very least, all owner occupant purchasers.

P.S....and if you don't believe that Governmental regulations are not needed to protect Americans, then you're highly deluded. Corporate big shots didn't get that way from acts of civility and/or humanity. If you don't believe me, think back to the beginnings of the industrial revolution when we had small children working in factories (forget school), making very little money, in abhorrent working conditions...It's totally unfathomable for us today because of regulatory laws caused by.....OH NOOOOO, Governmental intervention. Just my 2 cents.

8:51am • #93
Outside Blog

How about CASH FOR REAL ESTATE AGENTS that had rough year??  I swear I'll put more in the bank this time!!

8:51am • #94
3 Featured Posts

Oh, man! I love the stuff you're writing here! Imagine if real estate professionals defended the right to private property the way the firearms industry defends the right to keep and bear arms...

8:55am • #95
258,734 Points 102 Featured Posts Outside Blog

I found that comment interesting, Kimberly because annualized, a broker earning that sort of income would be in the 95th percentile; hardly struggling.  I think he was more trying to describe that the prices in his market have declined so much that it is hard to generate a sufficient income from "average" production.  I'm speculating but I believe his argument for the tax credit is for housing price stabilization, not necessarily so that he can earn a living.

Either argument doesn't work for me. I want the Government to exit the housing market completely, not limited to but including mortgage loan subsidies and preferential tax treatment.  That sounds radical to many because we've never lived in a time where the Government didn't offer preferential treatment for the housing market.  It's a scary proposition to us, the Rotarian Socialists who sell and finance homes.

Free markets work...if we let them become free

8:56am • #96
258,734 Points 102 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Oh Greg wouldn't that be something?  If the NAR acted like the NRA, instead of the UAW, we wouldn't be in this mess.  Homeownership would be affordable, banks wouldn't be insolvent, and property taxes would be minimal.

9:11am • #97

Great post Brian!  Live within your means is 100% right.  If home buyers who are that desperate would only stop and think for themselves then perhaps we could all thumb our noses at the government for misleading people this way.

Thanks for enlightening us all.

Heidi Yeadon

Tower Hill Home Staging

Central Massachusetts

 

Heidi Yeadon
9:17am • #98

I'm guessing that anyone who agrees with this post and collected a commission due to their client obtaining the $8000.00 tax credit will be willing to return that money to the government then? That would be the moral thing to do according to many of the comments here. IMHO It's always important to examine ALL sides of an issue before posting your opinions. I sincerely doubt if I'll convince any members who indirectly benefited from the tax credit to return the portion of the money they've collected even though they might have been driven out of business without it. Life is a game of relationships. One person's idea of wasted money is another person's idea of dollars well spent. "You can't always get what you want but if you try, sometimes you get what you need." - Rolling Stones

I always get a kick out of people that have no concept of how money works. If the federal government spends money in anytown, anystate, USA, it's only the people who don't live in anytown, anystate, USA who may consider that spending as wasteful. If a farmer receives a federal subsidy, only non-farmers or farmers who don't receive a subsidy usually feel the money was wasted. The fact is, if the government spends money to build a bike path in YOUR town, all kinds of economic activity takes place that generates tax revenue that eventually results in ALL of that money being returned to treasury and then recirculated out to be spent again elsewhere on something else that whoever isn't benefiting from it will label as "Wasted." The point is, the money doesn't "disappear" as the label "wasted" implies. Therefore, wasteful spending is a very subjective POV.

Carl Schumacher

9:19am • #99
Outside Blog

As much as this is hard medicine to swallow, I know you are right. We in the industry will just have to work smarter and find ways to thrive until a real market comes back. Thanks for the post.

9:43am • #100
2 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Well, we're not going to tilt at this particular windmill, but you stated your position very eloquently, Brian. In a perfect world, the gov't would be small and would stay out of places where it doesn't belong, as prescribed in the Constitution. However, this is (and has been for a long time) far from a perfect world, and we have to operate within the parameters of the game that's been given to us. Since the credit is here NOW, we're going to do everything in our power to see that any client of ours who qualifies for it, gets it. Our fiduciary duty will allow us nothing less. If the credit is extended and expanded, we'll continue to support our clients who apply for it. Our beef is, if the credit is going to be expanded and extended, then do it NOW. Quit beating around the bush and keep these bills in committee forever and get it out there. If the credit is going to be allowed to expire, then TELL US, so we can then get down to the business of selling homes to people who can afford them. We thing that's half the problem, that people aren't buying right now because they're waiting for the credit to be opened up to everyone, and they don't want to jump the gun and buy something and not get the credit. As someone else stated, there really are two sides to this argument, and we understand and respect both of them, and one of them will get their wish: either the credit will die, or it will be expanded/extended. But, you know the old saying: Be careful what you wish for, you may get it...

9:51am • #101
1 Featured Post Outside Blog

Brian,

Like Aaron I don't think we can lay all the blame at the feet of the Government. The guarantees that were put in place certainly had its effect, but Wall Street greed with their credit default swaps certainly helped spread the disease. Certainly some of the educated homeowners took advantage of borrowing money at rates and terms that were unreasonable, We can't leave out the mortgage industry and real estate industry who also took advantage of the opportunities. It is just like a divorce where no one party is totally at fault for the serious financial crisis we now find ourselves.

I do agree that these kinds of corrections are good (even though painful) to filter out the foundationless assets and financing. It is much like the much needed forest fire from time to time to clear out the underbrush.

9:56am • #102

Very good post which has stirred some interesting discussion- I agree with you we have enjoyed the tax credit/rebate long enough, if it is extended it will merely raise the value of all homes by the amount of the rebate. All the years the farmers have been given tax credits and they are more then ever under the thumb of the Government, we do not want to join them and become dependent- cut us loose- End the Tax Credit.

Thank you

9:57am • #103

Great Post #99

  I have a transaction that is dependant on the buyer's home being bought from couple #2 and their home being sold to couple #1 (who happens to be a 1st time home buyer).

  Without this buying frenzy going on would this 1st time home buyer purchased a home? How many times is this scenario being repeated all over the US? When I prime my lawn mover the fuel is injected specifically to the right components starting a chain reaction which starts the motor. Pouring gasoline over my lawn mover is like giving money to the banks. 

"everything is going to be alright" Bob Marley 

AUTZI
10:11am • #104
470,770 Points 50 Featured Posts Outside Blog

@Jeff:

Are you telling me that every client got the money, the $8,000 tax credit, before or at closing? Can you please make it more clear in regards to your statement, that not one of your clients that qualified for this tax credit, could qualify otherwise?

All of my 8 first time home buyer that qualified for this tax credit went to file an amended 08 taxes for the money. They did not use any sophisticated bridge loans for them. Coincidentally, most of these did a minimum 10% down also. A few had 20% down. The lowest was a 5% conventional loan. I'm working with 2 clients who would do a FHA with 3.5% down but they are planning to get the tax credit after they close.

When was your first client that bought a home, because of the $8,000 tax credit? When was the last?

Hmmm... There is only 1 client that I know of that had told me if he couldnt get in contract by mid-to-late October that he would stop the process. I also have 2 or 3 that decided to take advantage of the tax credit, otherwise they would still purchase, but perhaps not as much motivation to comply with the dateline.

 

10:22am • #105
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I can understand your position, but lets face it, the Government has been involved in the housing market for years and is not getting out.  I can agree with you in principal, but the fact is the $8,000.00 is the only break middle class tax payers will get.  I would gladly trade it in for across the board tax cuts, even an extension of the Bush Tax cuts that are due to expire. But that aint gonna happen!

If you stand so strong on principal what about the Home Mortgage Deduction; this issue has been a obstacle to the Flat Tax, which would be a good thing.  Talk about eliminating the Home Mortgage Deduction and the NAR and most the membership scream like stuck pigs.

10:26am • #106

I agree with your comments.  I have been saying very similar things.  When the government implements any program, tax credit, etc. it must evaluate ALL the consequences.  Unfortunately, it rarely does.  All these bailouts, housing tax credits, expansion of the FHA, etc. have artificially driven housing back up.  The problem is that it has also allowed the government, Wall Street and the banks to not make the fundamental changes that are required to prevent this from happening again.  Wall Street is still heavily leveraged (to the tune of 14 to 1), Banks are still as dysfunctional as ever and Fannie/Freddie are still failing.  The bailouts and tax credits have created conditions that are allowing banks to withhold 50-70% of REO foreclosures from the market by altering their immediate need for capital.  Instead, the banks are charging consumers record (and outrageous) fees for banking services to get quick capital and holding off on selling their foreclosures in the hopes that the government will buy the bad debt for more than the properties are worth.  These are unintended consequences of the government's actions, but believe me, they are negative in every way.  Distortion of the market always is.

All the government's actions are being done to inflate housing prices to "jump start the economy".  The problem is that housing has never been the driver of the economy, but, rather driven BY THE ECONOMY (think jobs and income).  Using inflated housing prices to create jobs is like eating your own arm to prevent you from starving.  While it may temporarily alleviate your hunger, the long term prognosis is not good.  In keeping with that, here is what will happen to housing.  These artificial government actions will push housing back up a bit.  Things will look good for a while.  Then the government will no longer be able to keep these incentives up and when they pull the rug out the housing market will decline again.  There is no way to stop the millions more foreclosures that are coming.  Despite the efforts of the Federal Government via the Home Affordable Modification Program (HAMP), foreclosures will increase. In fact according to Michael Barr, assistant Treasury secretary for financial institutions, "even if HAMP is a total success, we should still expect millions of foreclosures".  There is just no way around this.  Think about it.  Does it make sense that housing prices should naturally increase when unemployment is at 10% (real number is more like 17%) and foreclosures are hitting new records every month?  Of course not.  Rent control as a long-term method of artificial rental rates compression did not work in NYC and bailouts and tax credits will not work as long-term method of artificial real estate price inflation.  Also, what about the repeated government and housing industry mantra of "affordable housing"?  Was that all nonsense and lies?  Seems like it.  If they really cared about affordable housing they would not clamor to alter the market since the market is doing more than all of their actions combined to make housing affordable.

The government needs to evaluate the total costs of their bailouts and tax credits versus just letting real estate prices falling and, as a result, declining tax revenues and the FDIC needing to take over more banks.  I cannot imagine that the TRILLIONS that the bailouts and tax credits will ultimately cost to "save the market" will ever be justifiable in any financial or economic sense.

11:15am • #107

 

I believe the tax credit has been good, and should be extended for a modest amount of time, maybe to the end of 1st quarter to clean up the "holiday left-overs". A lot of the people who are benefiting now were likely to buy anyway. The people who need this credit the most are the 1st timers who are actually seeing this as an incentive. Unfortunately many of them were not prepared to buy, need time to clean up expenses and credit scores. I personally think that anything that will help people be more diligent about cleaning up their financial act is good for the economy.

People who compare this to the "Cash-for-Clunkers" don't get it. First of all, part of the car incentive was related to the environment - lowering the emissions by removing gas guzzling clunkers . The part that relates to the economy is only short sited if the auto makers "gear up" to their former levels too quickly. 1st time homebuyers help other people move up.

Regarding all the comments relating to the fact that a single group is being singled out for this benefit. Haven't tax shelters for the wealthy been around for a long time - with very little benefit to anyone else. Who do you think pays for the "lack of tax" collected. At least the 1st time home buyer who may be buying a few years earlier than they might have is an increase in home ownership.

I'm a Realtor in a market area that doesn't have a lot of 1st time buyers, but the domino falls up as well! Everyone along the line will buy something else, and new furnishings, and new towels and towel racks :-) This is the real long term benefit. I don't think the amount needs to be raised, and I don't think it needs to be extended to other than 1st time buyers, low rates should be enough for them.

 

11:36am • #108

Lets do some math, NAR estimates that about 1.8 to 2.0 million first-time buyers will take advantage of the $8,000 tax credit this year, with approximately 350,000 additional sales that would not have taken place without the credit. The program is on track to cost the government $15 billion, more than twice the amount that was projected when Congress passed the stimulus bill in February.

You can calculate the new $15 billion projection; 1.9 million times $8,000.
But this only resulted in 350,000 additional sales. Divide $15 billion by 350 thousand, and the program cost is about $43,000 per additional buyer. Very expensive.

Now the National Association of Home Builders estimates that expanding and extending the credit through 2010 would generate 500,000 additional sales at a cost of about $30 billion. So this is approximately $60,000 per additional house sold. And I think the cost will be much higher.

Sean
11:38am • #109
Outside Blog

AGREED!  And frankly, most of the first time buyers in my market don't seem to care about getting $8,000 so why continue it?  Strange...

12:26pm • #110
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However, this is (and has been for a long time) far from a perfect world, and we have to operate within the parameters of the game that's been given to us. Since the credit is here NOW, we're going to do everything in our power to see that any client of ours who qualifies for it, gets it. Our fiduciary duty will allow us nothing less

Oh, I agree, Pat.  You are bound by your duty to do everything you possibly can, within the parameters of the law, to help your buyer to the best of your ability.  Actively lobbying, to extend this obvious theft, is not included in that duty.

In short, if I send you a qualified buyer, I'd expect you to get him in escrow to close on or before November 29, 2009 (after all, that's our job) but I'd vociferously oppose any support to extend this madness.

Hmmm... There is only 1 client that I know of that had told me if he couldnt get in contract by mid-to-late October that he would stop the process

@Loreena- Wanna bet he'll buy if prices dropped another 10%

12:28pm • #111
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Like Aaron I don't think we can lay all the blame at the feet of the Government. The guarantees that were put in place certainly had its effect, but Wall Street greed with their credit default swaps certainly helped spread the disease.

Q: Why did Wall Street pursue such a reckless strategy, with total disregard to shareholder's equity?

A:  They knew the Government was guaranteeing the paper; whatjya expect them to do?

12:33pm • #112
258,734 Points 102 Featured Posts Outside Blog

 The problem is that housing has never been the driver of the economy, but, rather driven BY THE ECONOMY (think jobs and income).

James wins comment of the day for extraordinary insight.

12:52pm • #113
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I still think that giving every citizen of the US a one time windfall check would have been better for our economy than the crappy spending and handout programs they did instead. 

1:00pm • #114
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Hey Jerry,

I don't think you understand Ayn Rand at all or her underlying principles regarding the individual. Her work is based of life experiences centered around a Communist Society and I take if from your comment that you don't really comprehend the underlying principle of Atlas Shrugged. Why don't you try reading some of her other books, other than the "famous" ones. Try "We the Living", or "Capitalism" (a non-fiction book by the way). Some of her work might be "fiction", but it goes deeper than just a story line...you need to look past the characters and see the philosophical ideas that are the backbone of the entire novel.

Oh, and don't extend the tax credit.

1:38pm • #115

Best post I have seen on this subject.

You are right. 

I would prefer that our leaders would let the market self correct.

Yet, I know as long as the banks our buying our elected leaders, we can bet we will have an excess of upside down properties for five to 10 years.

 

John McConnin
1:53pm • #116

Personally, I would like to see a normal RE market sometime in the near future before I meet my maker.  All I see everywhere, however, is a false optimism and a prolonged agony for many years to come.  If you really care about your business,  then make sure your buyer clients can actually afford to own the home.  If they need a handout-tax credit to make the deal happen then rest assured they probably can't afford to own. On the other hand, my facts show that the majority of sales made were from buyers who were going to buy anyway .Not to mention, Investors who are scamming the system in ways I won't get into here!  Finally, what I find ironic is the fact that most Agents/Brokers and expecially first time home buyers have no clue as to what a TAX CREDIT really is!!?

  Dear NAR!  Take your tax credit and put it where the sun don't shine.  Enough is Enough!! 

1:59pm • #117

The 1st time home buyer comes in to my office with an "entitlement " disposition.  The government gives them everything they need to buy a home, including USDA Rural loans, no down payments required, no closing costs (out of pocket)under 4.5% 30 year fixed rate loans.......and money back in the buyers pockets in 2010.


Stop the madness....Mr. President!


It's a scam, a sham, and a lie.......can we just go back to the old fashioned way of doing business?  You save your money, you risk your own capital for your investment, and you don't get to just walk away from the home you just bought with tax payers money.......just because you don't like the color of the tile in the family room!


Stop the 8K credit, don't increase it, don't expand it.


:(

2:55pm • #118

One more thing........can we say "Train wreck?"  Seriously.

2:59pm • #119

Thank you, I thought I would lose my mind reading responses to yesterday's post on this. People will be motivated to buy a home when prices fall and they can afford to. Getting back to basics without convoluted incentives that cost taxpayers way too much per house sold is the quite fundamental. Let's not fall for complicated solutions that will only lead to all of us having to pay for more "watchers" to "watch" what the "watchers" are watching (good old Dr Suess).

I have one first time buyer right now. He would have liked to recieve the $8000 tax credit, but the offer we made a few weeks ago was rejected without so much as a counter from the seller. It was actually a reasonable offer with a big downpayment. We agreed it didn't make sense to pay $15,000 too much for a house in order to close in time for the $8000 credit so he walked and we are still looking.

3:18pm • #120
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Kimberly my point is that I make about $1,500 a transaction. Hardly padding my pockets due to the $8,000 tax credit. I make far less than $200,00o a year. I also support a brokerage and several agents. These are not my personal sales. I was trying to put into perspedctive how much money $8,000 is for buyers in my market. In fact most don't get $8,000 as it is really $8,000 or 10% of the purchase price whichever is less. Our average purchase price is $74,000. I'm deep in the trenches of hard hit America.

Folks on this post are saying that a buyer that needs an $8,000 tax creidt in order to buy shouldn't be buying a house any way. In my area $8,000 is a LOT of money. It's actually about 10-15% of the purchase price. It's a big deal.

3:39pm • #121

The more I see blogs from both sides of the fence, the more annoyed I get. Get out of the real estate market and go into politics and stop whining, if this is how you ruly feel. If your clients are being bribed to buy property then you have a seriously skewed business model. We work with our clients to decide if now is a time to rent or buy; leasing with an option has been really helpful in our region. So again, more ranting by about the wolves churning and burning (there will always be those who prey on others, so all decent programs will have their downside).

About the only thing I agree with you on is that the government has had an overly large say in what has happened to our economy. FDR failed when this last happened and lucked into a war to get us out. But be real... we and our parents have had as much to do with it. We could talk politics all day and never get any where! Hence why we are in this mess in the first place. So try and be positive and work with what we have.

The tax credit has had some effect in a lot of regions. Had it also been aimed at middle and lower income existing home owners (those who have had to move due to relocation, retirement, expanding families, taking in elderly relatives, etc., and not because they over bought) it might have done more. That said, we have another year, at least, to deal with the ARMS, foreclosures and othes issues, so extending the credit might acually help ride out the storm (in the long run this is not actually giving money away, it is just helping disperse it). I am not sure what it costs to sell a home where you are, but the transfer stamps alone (which go right back to the government and run from as low as $4.50 per thousand in purchase price) can impede sales that should happen in the Chicago region. Maybe regionally scaling a credit would help.

If the buyers are being worked with properly by your side of the industry (some of the biggest villains on the block, with the largest lobbies), then the credit will enable them to purchase a very low priced home they can afford with some cushion. If it just so happens that some guy at Home Depot gets to keep his job in the process, then who are you to complain?

Get off the soap box and just set an example of hard work, ethical practices and community minded business. If we all were to do this, the market will eventually have a chance to correct itself. Don't forget that we still have a long way to go: global markets, job losses, and more still have yet to run their course. Work with your clients, and do what is in their best interest and you will have the best chance to survive this mess. We have all made mistakes; learn from them. Remember: If we all do our job right, then these buyers could be our return clients for a long time coming.

Stay positive and be an example! (Or become one of the living dead... your choice.)

Jefferson Vice
4:05pm • #122

The more I look at this, the more I see we are all talking "economies of scale". $8,000 dollars is only about 3-5% if the 2 bedroom condos in the Chicago-land area. Some of these comments have been made by some professionals in areas where the credit may be more than the commissions!

Maybe the credeits should have been based on a per-capita regional sliding scale. Example: My tax credit for day care added up to about $1,600. A decent amount in some places, but I payed $18,000+! And that was for a normal comparable day care, not a nanny.

And be real... Gentleman who says the $8,000 cost as much as $60k... What are you smoking? Did you take in the other closing costs and who they employed? What money was spent where? How much of the commissions will be directly returned as income tax? The fact that some of these sales will be adding property tax to someones balance sheet? If you are going to crunch numbers, then please try to actually account for what goes into a sale and why real estate effects so many industries.

Please look at these things from both side. This credit may actually be the only positive action by either party to date.

Jefferson Vice
4:26pm • #123
Outside Blog

I have posted on previous occasions about the "piling on" that takes place when someone who is not affected much by a current situation takes the "moral outrage" position that any government handout or bailout is bad.  As a lifelong Republican, my instinct is to support getting the government out of my life.

Hoverever, in this case I feel differently. Broker Bryant, I think, makes many good points. I believe that our biggest problem right now is excess inventory caused in part, by falling housing prices and the deflationary fears that controls many buyers. The priority has to be to get that inventory down. Until we do, the wealth and happiness of many, if not most of our homeowners is at extreme risk. The evidence is clear to me that this tax credit program is working.  Not many government programs do, but this is one we need to keep and maybe even to expand to all homebuyers.  Extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures. 

Akron, Ohio

4:29pm • #124
258,734 Points 102 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures.

I know it's hard to understand Tom (because you haven't REALLY experienced a free market) but you will NOT be able to stop this decline, no matter how many roadblocks you try to install. If you want to clear out the excess inventory, get the heck out of the way.  If you want to make things better, let market forces do their thing

4:54pm • #125
4 Featured Posts

EXCELLENT POST BRIAN...

I can't understand why people think artificially high home prices (higher debt) is good for the economy...

It's amazing how many Real Estate Professionals don't understand what happened in the first place with all of the studies that have now been done...

Unless of course... you are a special interest group thinking about your bank account and how you can profit from unfunded Subsidies..

"To request further Government assistance for our industry is deplorable.  We need a housing market that relies on the principles of supply and demand rather than some cheap, two-bit hustle. If we, as real estate agents and loan originators are to support the principles of private property ownership, free markets, and real estate as a reliable vehicle to build long-term security, we MUST do what is moral, regardless if it won't allow us to line our pockets."

RIGHT ON...

Until we stop the tampering..... we will NEVER have a Normal, Healthy and Predictable Real Estate Market.

All subsidies do is delay the inevitable..

 

5:47pm • #126
1 Featured Post Outside Blog

Go #60. I agree with you.

It's hard for buyers to get a mortgage these days. Things aren't entered into lightly right now. I don't see a lot of people saying "I'm going to stretch and lie to get a mortgage so I can get $8,000".

It wasn't government who let anyone get a mortgage to get us in this mess; unless you blame the government for not enough restrictions.

If we really let everything fall without any government intervention, where will we really be right now? Begging for help.

We are all in this together, whether we like it or not.

7:19pm • #127
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Begging for help.

Lord no!  We'd be living prosperously if the government stayed out of housing, for the past 80 years.

7:26pm • #129
2 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Great read Brian!!  This article gave me a new perspective.

8:23pm • #130

At least Brian is taking a stand and 100% behind it, not like some others who are turning with the wind ...

How about this: I have plenty of buyers who qualify for a loan, we make offers, go into contract, just to learn from the lender that the house does not qualify? We are not talking trashed out, burned out junkers. Just properties that need a little TLC like new carpet, light fixures, interior doors, a faucet etc. How come I have to get a structural engineer to look at just about every property we take into contract?

At this rate, with the current underwriting guidelines, it will take another decade to get the inventory off the market. My buyers could care less about the $8,000. All they want is a HOUSE to move into!

8:32pm • #131

In the words of Winston Churchill:

"A government that tries to tax its way into prosperity is like a manstanding in a bucket and trying to lift it by the handle."

Someone will have to pay for the program.  Obviously, prior to the inception of the program, we didnt have the cash saved up for it, and it isn't suddenly materializing in front of us as we speak, so the only source for the tax credits is future taxation.  Sure, we might be able to delay having to pay up by borrowing from China, but that just delays the ultimate payment by 10, 20, 30 years.

Should we thank our children now?

8:49pm • #132
258,734 Points 102 Featured Posts Outside Blog

At this rate, with the current underwriting guidelines, it will take another decade to get the inventory off the market

I completely agree, Susanne.  Here's why; the single-payer, gov't subsidized system for mortgages dissuades any private lender (who would analyze and price in the risk of a scratch and dent property) from offering a profitable product.

It won't surprise you, Susanne to learn that I am a fan of Austrian-Americans.

9:23pm • #133

I have to disagree with you on this. I think the tax credit has helped reduce the inventory and extending further will reduce it even more which is what we need, therefore stimulating the housing market. The housing market improves, its a start in improving other areas of the economy. A win-win situation. Also,  I haven't had any first time home buyer that has had to use the credit to purchase the home. They have been qualified buyers that just liked the incentive. I say extend it.

9:54pm • #134
SEP
18
1 Featured Post Outside Blog Hit Router

Interesting argument Brian. It is giving me food for thought on this debate.

12:27am • #135

Interesting arguements.  I'm amazed that the majority still seem to be against it.

2:37am • #136

May sound cliche', but I couldn't agree with you more.

2:56am • #137
275,330 Points 3 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

One unanticipated side effect of the credit is that purchases that would have been made in 2010 were accelerated into 2009.  Those natural sales will now be missing from 2010 - unless the government creates ANOTHER credit...

7:32am • #139

Jefferson Vice #123 . . .

Hear, Hear . . .

8:45am • #140

# 129 "Lord no!  We'd be living prosperously if the government stayed out of housing, for the past 80 years."

With all due respect Brian, if the government had stayed out of housing for the last 80 years, it's most certain that we'd all be paying rent to the company store and there'd be no real estate market for common middle class people to participate in. Not to mention a viable real estate market for us to practice in. This is like saying that if the government had stayed out of environmental regulations or zoning of any kind for the last 80 years we'd all be living in the garden of Eden. A little historical research by you into the history of why the government felt compelled to create HUD and FHA 80 years ago would go a long way toward tempering what appears to be a very naive and narrow POV on your part.

Carl Schumacher

8:58am • #141

I also happened to notice that in the title of your blog here you're claiming to be "America's Number 1 VA Home Loan Broker." Interesting ad for a guy that feels the government shouldn't be involved in housing. Last I knew, the VA lending program is a "government guaranteed" loan program. Based on your analogy then, I'm guessing you feel it should be eliminated because the government created it?

Just sayin' . . .

Carl Schumacher

9:09am • #142

The government should focus on the economy, not housing.  The fundamental question is why have jobs been leaving the US for the last 3 decades?  Answer: taxes, government regulations (think environmental regulations that punish companies while doing nothing to help the economy such as CO2 emissions, etc., hiring quotas, employment laws, etc.) and labor unions.  Fix those problems and employment and income rises.  After several years maybe incomes will catch up enough and housing prices will fall enough that we actually reach a sustainable ratio of median home prices to median incomes (normally median home prices in an area are 3x incomes in that area) when overall employment is stable.  Right now we have increasing unemployment, increasing foreclosures, but government meddling.  This is causing confusion and chaos.  For those who think we can ride this out with a 1 year extension of the tax credit, etc., please look at the stats.  Foreclosures will remain at very high levels for 3-5 years and at high levels for several years beyond that.  Unemployment, will start to go down in about 12-18 months, but it will not go back down to the 4.5-5.5% levels of 2004-2005 because the economy (and the employment market) was so dependent on consumer spending and that spending will not come back since it was fueled and enabled by easily obtainable debt that is no longer available.

While this mess hurts me right now as a REALTOR and a homeowner who is trying to sell their home due a relocation, I know this is true.  Declining housing prices are good for the economy.  It will free up capital that can be spent and/or invested in other areas.  It will enable people to actually eventually own their own homes and live with less debt and stress instead of living on the absolute edge.  This is all just a deleveraging of the US economy, which IS NECESSARY.

Mark my words, eventually the government subsidizing of the real estate market will end and the housing market will decline more.

9:57am • #143

Thanks for the post Brian, you are so right, we are going back to the problem again, in my area $8000 is enough for Down and closing costs in 50% of the properties listed, that means that a lot of buyers are getting in to properties with no money down basically. at the first little hiccup they will let it go, and there we'll have another foreclosure again.

Efrain Bobadilla
10:13am • #144
258,734 Points 102 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Based on your analogy then, I'm guessing you feel it should be eliminated because the government created it?

The short answer is that I think all government involvement in housing should cease so that we can recover more quickly and develop a healthy mortgage market.  Here's the long answer.

With all due respect Brian, if the government had stayed out of housing for the last 80 years, it's most certain that we'd all be paying rent to the company store and there'd be no real estate market for common middle class people to participate in

That's what the high school social studies teachers taught the good little boys and girls, Carl. Unfortunately, I was one of those "bad" kids who wondered "What if unfettered capitalism were allowed to work?"

Why do technology companies have a high failure rate but the ones that succeed make enormous amounts of money while reducing time and costs (basically, bettering society).

HINT:  It's because the government hasn't found a way to regulate them...yet.

Gues what, folks?  Your high school studies teachers and NAR union reps are wrong- we don't need the government in housing.  In fact, we'd be much more prosperous without its interference

7:33pm • #145
SEP
19

"I was one of those "bad" kids who wondered "What if unfettered capitalism were allowed to work?"

I'll put this as nicely as I can and still make my point:

If unfettered capitalism were allowed to work it is almost a certainty that you, your children, and your grand children (if you have any) would now be enjoying working at, living at, and receiving the few items you would be allowed to buy from either The JP Morgan corporation, Standard Oil, (The Rockefellers) or perhaps the Vanderbilt family. IOW's the US would have already disolved back into the feudal system that it fought a revolution to escape from. Two of these companies (do you know which two?) both at one point in their history wound up amassing more wealth than the entire US treasury. One of them actually had to lend money to the US government in the early 20th century in order to keep the nation from desoliving into capitalism chaos when the treasury came up a little short trying to maintain united order with the states.

"Unfettered capitalism" works extremely well for whomever eventually winds up at the top of the pyramid. Unfortunetly, it doesnt work for 99.99 & 9/10's of the rest of the population.

I'd suggest that you read Upton Sinclare's "The Jungle" for a lesson in how "unfettered capitalism" works out for the working class. Next, you might try getting through Howard Zinn's "A Peoples History of the United States." for a look at US history through the eyes of "rebels" (as you apparently feel that you are) that apparently your "high school social studies teacher" forgot to assign when you attended high school." A high school level class in economics might be helpful as well. You will learn why "regulated markets" are a requirement of a healthy capitalistic economic system in order to insure competition in otherwise "free" markets that in every circumstance known to man will eventually lead to economic chaos, revolution, death, and eventually collapse.

I find it interesting that the "right," (which I'm assuming you are based on the responses you've made to some of the comments posted here) seems to always have to eventually resort to hurling insults when they arrive at the end of their knowledge about a topic. Similar to citizens on medicare protesting "socialism" while at the same time cautioning the government not to meddle with the health insurance system they're benefiting from . . .

I'll leave it at that . . .

10:24am • #146
258,734 Points 102 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Sinclair was an avowed Socialist, Carl.  (he's the guy that said "America will take Socialism but they won't take the label").  I haven't read Zinn but I know he was under the Sinclair influence when he wrote his plays and essays.

I find it interesting that the "right," which I'm assuming you are based on the responses you've made to some of the comments posted here

I prefer freedom-lover but that's all semantics, isn't it? 

apparently your "high school social studies teacher" forgot to assign when you attended high school." A high school level class in economics might be helpful as well.

I even read some books that were not on the approved reading list but alas, I received no extra credit for my intellectual curiosity errant ways.

We have fundamental differences in our approach to prosperity.  Based on our respective beliefs, I doubt we'll ever see eye-to-eye.

Fair enough, Carl.

10:38am • #147

What will happen to the housing market after the 1st week of November?  The opportunity to take the tax credit will be effectively gone since one must settle by Dec. 1st.  Will the buyers then take a hiatus and wait for the next tax credit announcement from the govt?  I think so.

We'll all know this answer soon enough.  I only hope that congress gets it and gets out of the market's way.

11:10am • #148
OCT
06
Outside Blog

Great work, Brian - thank you for it.

1:44am • #150
OCT
14

I agree. By providing the first time home buyer money the government os delaying the enviable. Therer should have never been a bail out for any one. Let the market correct itself regardless how bad it gets.

Jerry Shilling
5:36am • #151
NOV
01

I agree...mostly.  It's tough to see the true effects of all this govt. stimulus until things in the market progress a little more.  I think it could go either way as far as our economy recovering.  BUT, I think we have fundamental big problems in our economy and all this stimulus is just extending the problem - we need a new solution.

11:33am • #152

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