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Dave Ramsey - say it ain't so!!

Let me begin this post with this disclaimer…. THIS IS NOT AN ATTACK ON DAVE RAMSEY - he is an idol of mine… I have purchased his products and believe in what he is all about…. This is simply the facts on how their endorsed agents handle consumers and how Dave Ramsey personnel handle complaints…..

I am a huge fan of Dave Ramsey... honestly, he doesn't preach anything we don't already know but his delivery is spot on and about as real as it gets..... i recently received a loan proposal from one of Dave Ramsey's "endorsed agents"...

- let me ask the Active Rain community.... is 2.75% on the front end in ponts + junk fees what you would expect from the man, myth and legend called Dave Ramsey? I had to take a pic of the actual quote and insert into this post as I was not able to cut and paste it.... take a look for yourself........ i have left out the company and originators name, just as i did in the initial email i sent to the folks at dave ramsey --- see their reply below...... ** as a side note - i copied about 13 of my long time friends from AR.... we all know them...... these people know exactly how this went down.... it is a disgrace!

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One option I would suggest is going FHA. This reduces the monthly mortgage insurance by almost half.

Home Loan Specialist

XXXXXXX Mortgage

Office: 866-xxx-xxxx

Cell:

Fax: xxx-xxx-xxxx

Exclusively Endorsed by Dave Ramsey:

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I have sent Dave numerous emails and all they do is get screened by his workers..... see below... especially if you are a fan of his.... let me know your thoughts...

quote on 9/15/2009 30 Yr loan 5.125% 2.75% points cost of points $9679.56 est closing costs $2825.00 APR 5.56% huh????? I don't think so!!!!
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Dear Dave,

I am a huge fan. I drive my wife and kids nuts making them watch you on TV and listening o your products in the car. I would give my left arm to be endorsed by you. I have tried multiple times but my requests go unanswered. With that said – I have a MAJOR concern.

I am an 18 Yr vet in the mortgage business. I believe in a fair profit. I believe in Dave Ramsey. I do not believe in flat out rip offs such as the example below………. *** I am NOT accusing the actual company off ripping off clients – however I can prove in an email I have possession of that the company in mention does not police their originators -- Let me break this down for you…. I was forwarded this quote from a past client who wanted a competitive loan proposal…….. My mission here is not to get anyone fired or punished but it is to make you aware of the lack of quality control your company has with regards to your endorsed agents…… in fact, I have removed the agents name and cell phone – if you want that information just give me a call…. I can forward the complete email…… regardless, this is not the Dave Ramsey I admire and turn to for advice on a nightly basis and I feel I owe it to you for all the free advice you have given me over the years.

I quote this refinance 5.0% ( which is par pricing ) and 1 point. The one point is my paycheck and it covers associated loan costs as well.

Your Dave Ramsey endorsed agent is charging the consumer 5.125% and 2.75 POINTS!!! On top of that, the APR – which is what the government tells consumers should be used as the basis for loan comparisons – is incorrect! I have not seen 2.75 points since the 90’s and the days of the 125% second mortgage……. this is worse than banks overdraft and over the limit fees….

Dave – say it ain’t so. Tell me you don’t endorse this crap……….. I look forward to your response….

Lewis Poretz
President – Open Mortgage

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Lewis, please send me the entire e-mail. We take these issues very seriously.

As an 18 year veteran in the business, you certainly know that all loan situations are different. I would ask that you allow me to find out all of the facts before accusing XXXXXXX of being “crooks.” That is a very hefty word to throw around. We have worked with XXXXXXXX for over 15 years and never have I had an accusation like that thrown at them.

I will definitely check into this once you send me all of the information.

Thanks.

XXXXXXXXX

Director of National Sales & Sponsorships

The Dave Ramsey Show

877.410.3283, ext. XXX (voice)

______________________ Below is my response to the original email from dave ramsey people.....

Wow - I think it is awesome you guys responded to this that fast….

listen, I am not calling that company a crook. The company does not create the good faith estimates, the loan officers do…… But I can tell you this – I am part of a weekly conference call of about 20 small and medium sized mortgage shop owners like myself all over the country… we call ourselves the mortgage mastermind group - we are experts….. we also have principals and morals and as Dave says “ a heartbeat”…. I will gladly forward anything you request but I would like a phone call from you guys just telling me my client or myself will suffer no repercussions…… in other words… I don’t want any pissed off loan officer coming after my ass…… so I don’t want my name or my clients name passed out…. can you call and confirm that?

Lewis 410-956-0050 below are comments from my group, they all love Dave as well…. I thought I owed it to Dave Ramsey to blow the whistle… I just don’t want to get in the middle of this….

Shit, tell David Ramsey that he should chop off this loan officers hand, for using him as an endorsement, when she is raping this person. Hey, I don’t see a huge problem with someone making $8,000…. But there is $9,600 in upfront points plus about 1 pt on the back end, which is another $3,500….. so, $13,100 on a $351,000 loan amount? Just a wee too much….. if my client ever found this out, I would not have a client for life nor referrals.

Send it to dave along with a rate sheet

Send it to Dave along with a carefully crafted story and maybe he'll have you on the air.

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Lewis, I would have to send the customer’s information to XXXXXXXX in order to get the whole story. It’s kind of pointless without that, wouldn’t you agree? Making a judgment without that information is the equivalent of blindly taking your word over XXXXXXXX and forgive me if I decline to do that.

If you won’t give me the information then I cannot help your client.

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at this point i sent him the complete quote along with the originators name and contact info ---

All I want is a call from you… it is not the client you need to help…. he understands that it was a bad quote…… he can clearly see the charges in black and white… it is Dave Ramsey’s reputation… why are you defending this shit… here do what you will but if I find you passed my name out as the whistle blower and something happens to me or my family by some loan officer who has nothing to lose I am giving forewarning… I want myself and my client to remain anonymous… please why do I feel as if I am the bad guy here????…….

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and this is the BS i get back from someone who works for one of my mentors.......

1) You refuse to give me all the information needed for me to look into this.

2) I have said that we take accusations like this very seriously and that I would look into this situation once you provide me the information I need to do so. You responded by accusing me of “defending this shit.”

3) You’ve copied 13 people in on the e-mail chain who have nothing to do with this conversation.

4) Your actions and your language are completely unprofessional.

5) I will not waste a single minute on the phone with you.

6) I will not respond to any further e-mails from you.

xxxxx xxxxxxxxx

Director of National Sales & Sponsorships

The Dave Ramsey Show

877.410.3283, ext. xxx (voice)

xxx xxx xxxx (facsimile)

Posted by Lewis Poretz - - Maryland Mortgage Expert - on 09/25/2009 06:30 AM

Comments (28)

dave ramsey endorsed agents beware, dave ramsey endorsed mortgage companies hmmmmm think again

Post is included in group: Toot Your Horn on Active Rain
Post is included in group: Realtors®
Post is included in group: Mortgages
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Post is included in group: Consumer Mortgage Tips

28 Comments on Dave Ramsey - say it ain't so!!

SEP

Dave Ramsey is a Shmuck anyhow. Get your client somewhere safe immediately.

Ramsey does give out good info but like you, this is not what I would expect.

Lewis... Dave Ramsey gives out some good info, but I also disagree with some of his other stuff. Overall, many of these types of people scare me because you truly wonder what their agenda is... really helping people or the almighty dollar. I know we all need to make a living... but some of these people that follow people like Dave Ramsey are like a cult. I spoke to one woman whose husband religiously listens to Dave and follows his every moves... without researching some topics, etc, etc.

Overall, in regards to your responses with Dave's manager of the show and or web site, this might be a clearer indication on how Dave actually works then... possibly making my thoughts and opinions more on the money. If Dave cared, he would take a problem like this head on and get back to you personally. I would have instructed my manager to let me know about any and all issues like the one that you mentioned. Also, you showed me the original e-mail from this loan officer, and it had Dave Ramsey's logo and name at the bottom, showing that Dave Ramsey supports this kind of loan officer. Again, is it more about having a loan officer pay a few to use someone elses name, to get clients to trust them? I think that is the case here, in which case, this loan officer was trying to take advantage of this borrower. So very sad... especially if this goes on and Dave Ramsey doesn't address this with you... it will show that he is not that concerned then... and has an idiot as a manager also...

jeff belonger

That's why it's time we take the Mortgage Masterminds public, don't you think Lewis?:)

There really isn't good source to vet mortgage info anywhere now. You can get "competing bids" on a bunch of sites but where can customers get the advice they need to choose the right programs and methods? No where- until now! Let's run with it brother- it's nigh time!

Gerry Suarez, Jr.

Your FHA Loan Pro!

That's a lot of self serving points up front. Maybe Dave should know that fact. It isn't Kosher!

Pocono - The client thanked me for saving him thousands of dollars....

Edward - totally not what I expected... especially the way it was handled....

Jeff - You know what - I may have been induced by that cult following - that is why I am so damn upset, NOT with the good faith estimate that was totally a rip off, but with how Dave Ramsey's Director of National Sales and Sponsorships handled this situation. He totally blew me off. I have sent emails to every damn address I can find in the Dave Ramsey organization - NO RESPONSE! I even sent something to Dave's Facebook page address... it was read because I can track it... NO RESPONSE!

Gerry - The timing could not be better could it my friend???

Jim - Any suggestions on how to get this message to Dave? I have exhausted all my ideas? I really believe if he sees this crap he would handle it personally.... at least I would like to believe that.

----- Lesson learned here --- The almighty dollar trumps everything else.... even Dave Ramsey!

Anyone who is upset by this - please REBLOG this post.....

Not a fan of Dave.

Dave has helped many with his advice and I commend him for that.... Yet he gives out some VERY bad advice too!!

I heard that he puffs out his chest and brags about his ZERO credit score. Uh, well, that may be fine for a rich guy making milion$ off of people selling books and tapes. But the average Joe needs a credit score to buy a home or auto. Now, you may be able to buy an auto with a ZERO score.... but you will pay thru the nose in interest..... How is that sound advice? <= It is not Dave.... wake up!!!

I am willing to bet that Dave receives a fee for his endorsements.... Like this Dave Ramsey Approved hack lender.

This is good stuff. I think the problem with national people is that they need copy and material all the time. So when they get lean on material.....well they take less than good material. I don't like what this represents from him and his company at all. I think what makes someone great is admitting that they've made a mistake. He should say:

I gave this information oub because __________________

I received a lot of information from people in the industry that disagree because _____________

Upon further consideration, I would like to amend my thoughts on this because ______________

Thanks for the shout out guys.....

Needless to say, a response like that would be a great statement of greatness. No one's perfect and he's showing that he isn't either.

I found this via Jeff's reblog. As I commented over there, I'm surprised at the lack of PD awareness from the Director of National Sales. Regardless of whether he cares about the services offered or just the endorsement, Ramsey has a name and image to protect and this response certainly does not work towards that goal. It will be interesting to hear the revised response if this gains traction.

Tom - I was a huge fan of Dave's... His advice is obvious but his delivery is what motivates...

Larry - the lack of response is what get's me.....

Erik - Lack of awareness? Look at this guys response... all I intended to do was point out an issue with one of HIS endorsed agents.... and the message I received back was basically - "screw off"....

Lewis: I guess I'm not surprised. I commend you for trying. I think sometimes people reach an exalted level and they forget where they came from. Either that or they were arrogant to begin with! Take care.

Lewis,

I like some of Dave's advice, but I've always had an issue with his "endorsed local provider" marketing. He's not doing anything other than collecting referral fees and this speaks volumes about the quality of their providers.

I really hope this information gets in front of a lot of people. I'm going to re-blog it for you as well.

Lewis,

Dave Ramsey has moved into the celebrity role fast with his common sense approach to personal financial responsibility, but with his celebrity status comes the responsibility to check into what they are endorsing or promoting. This situation reminds of years ago when Kathy Lee Gifford got her self in hot water when she was selling her Wal-Mart line and found out later that the clothing was being made by kids in sweat shops. Celebrities have a responsibility to the public or face this type of embarrassment later.

Lewis - I'm a little confused here. Was this information heresay, or information that you received from the same client that make business connections with DR's organization.

I could see why you are upset. And I could tell from the chain of emails that the person (again I'm not sure if it is you) was upset with the way the communication language was written. Right or not, demanding an answer or not, I think it should not be written in such language.

I thought the first email response back from them was very professional (and quick as per the reply).

"defending this shit" is a very strong negative language that should never be used by any professional. Wont you agree? I think it may be by this language that this person no longer intends to communicate. I can understand why and I firmly support that decision. If we cannot act like professionals, then I dont need to waste my time.

I learnt this lesson after I had a guy called me upset about why the client didn't close, said language in the tone of the email. I've never been talked to like that and promise myself that I would never.

Again, I hope you didn't take it that I "attacked" you. As I mentioned, I'm still confused about how all this came about and where is this client. Whose client is it. I discussed the matter of the content of this post, and hope you didn't take that I took this on a personal attack.

I am also a fairly big Dave Ramsey fan. I facilitate FPU at my church. I do benevolence counselling based on advice of the 4-walls and Baby Steps and I am a ministry-certified counselor.

Dave Ramsey is not my kind of expert. He has no real industry background, to my knowledge, other than being a real estate investor, being forced into bankruptcy and then consuming seminars and workshops from other people who's greater experience is giving .... seminars and workshops (those who can DO, those who can't TEACH).

He talks pretty and someone helps him write readable books. I have only listened to him enough to know his advice is not 100% correct - he is, after all, a disconnected money machine. What Dave does today is likely far from the pain he felt when he went through his personal hardships. Now that he's a multi-millionaire those pains are far removed from his message. The simple fact he bases much of his information on what he learned from Ron Blue should scare the hell out of anyone who follows Dave Ramsey. I have a deep, personal knowledge of Ron Blue's "guidance" and what his "advice" did to some very beloved family members. Jackass. I'm not surprised you didn't get anywhere with it.

It would not surprise me if they found this and sent you a letter. Just pray it comes from them and not someone named Esquire.

WTH is a "coontie"? That was my secret word.

First off thank you all for your comments... you guys know, google is an amazing tool.... just google dave Ramsey authorized mortgage companies rip off reports.... I guess I am not the only one upset......

Paul - I am still trying - this happened last week and i didn't blog about it until today... It just keeps irking me... the way that his people handled this matter.. pathetic... passing it off as unproessional because i used a four letter word! cmon... address the issues will ya!.. that is lame...

Brian - keep the comments rolling and reblog this post.... it will be noticed! It already has.....

Gary - I do not think it is Dave Ramsey... I think his manager has let the success go to his head and is frightened to address the true issue and wants to pawn no response off on a four letter word LAME!!!

Tom - I hear ya - I am a fan of ramsey -- I am not a fan of his organization or how this issue was handled.....

Loreena - I appreciate your post and your sticking up for Dave.... Let me state this one more time... I am a fan of Dave Ramsey... I drive my wife and kids nuts listening to the CD's and DVD's I paid my hard earned money for.... I watch his show religously...... so stop the nonsense and get to the true facts please......

Not sure why there is so much disconnect!!! I used a four letter word so what! I was emailed a quote from a former client who recieved a loan proposal from a Dave Ramsey endorsed agent... he wanted me to review it... THIS IS THE ISSUSE at hand NOT a four letter word or how I phrased the content of my email...

say all you want about the content of my blog or the email i wrote....the proof is in black and white....it is what it is and the whole world can decide on their own.... Dave Ramsey's endorsed mortgage broker proposed a loan to a former client charging 2.75% points up front and the APR was not calculated coprrectly.. Period! end of story.... the manager is only interested in focusing on the four letter word and how unprofessional my email was well guess what - for the whole world to see.... I AM SORRY FOR USING BAD WORDS! now can we get to the issue please???

My post has been reblogged many times already and if you google dave ramsey complaints or dave ramsey endorsed mortgage i rank #1 so time will tell...... and if you think this is a new issue -- google dave ramsey endorsed mortgage rip offs and see what you get...

once again THIS IS NOT AN ATTACK ON DAVE RAMSEY - i am a fan of his... however the way his people handle complaint is LAME!

SEP

The information presented does not say anything about credit scores, could a lower Credit Score cause pricing hits ?

This is not to support Dave Ramsey or his EXPERTS, just trying to be fair. Because the points appear extreme it seems something is missing or the EXPERT is wasting their time with quotes like this.

SEP

700+ scores and plenty of equity... full doc with reserves......

OCT

Lewis,

Great post. I too am a big fan of Dave Ramsey. However I am shocked by the response of the "Director of National Sales". It appears to me that this employee of Ramsey's does not understand our business and therefore chose an unprofessional response to your questions and concerns.

Chris - it appears to me that the Dave Ramsey organization is FOR PROFIT and could care less about the authorized brokers that represent him on the streets... I have sent emails to every email address i could find from his website and nobody responds..... I paid money for this guys books! In my opinion Dave Ramsey is a phoney and all he is in this for is to make money - NOT help people......

OCT

This post has been re blogged several time and has ranking in google.... yet - no response from the Ramsey camp.... amazing!

OCT

I would lose some respect for you when you start swearing also. There is nothing professional about that. It just comes across as someone trying to cause a problem. To some extent, I don't blame them for blowing you off. I'm sure there are problems with some of the ELP people considering the wide range and coverage. Hopefully in other situations these are more often weeded out.

NOV

I can't imagine every client of his ELF "Endorsed by Dave Ramsey's list of companies are good. I too had a similar incident with an endored life insurance company and their monthly fees were twice as much than a quote from a different company!

NOV

Dave Ramsey aside, I would not have responded to your emails based on the following indicators: 1) Poor grammar and punctuation is simply unprofessional and indicates your lack of interest inactually solving a problem. 2) The language is unacceptable. Do you think a Christian based organization is going to continue correspondance under those circumstances? 3). The lack of detail and undertone of necessary "anonymity" for Yourself, your client, and your family comes across as very suspect. How can they even question the ELP without specific evidence? These issues branded you as a disgruntled ELP hopeful that is attempting to disparage their working relationship. Re-read your correspondance from the receiver's perspective. This sounds harsh, but I am paid very well for my ability evaluate and recruit financial talent. Please take this as constructive communication criticism.

NOV

Mike - thanks for your comments i would like to take aminute to address them one by one..

Poor grammar and punctuation is simply unprofessional and indicates your lack of interest inactually solving a problem.

I find this difficult to swallow. Are you telling me someone who has a true issue to point out that possibly has dyslexia, has an 8th grade education, is mildly retarded - are you telling me someone who doesn't have writing skills has no real interest in solving a problem?

The language is unacceptable. Do you think a Christian based organization is going to continue correspondance under those circumstances?

hmmmmm do you think a true Christian organization would bang a client for 2.75 points on a loan? In addition, isn't being a Christian about forgiveness? Big deal - I used words that were unprofessional because I was that upset.... But is that a reason not to address the issue???

The lack of detail and undertone of necessary "anonymity" for Yourself, your client, and your family comes across as very suspect. How can they even question the ELP without specific evidence?

Lack of detail and anonymity???? Seems to me when I look at your profile all I see is "Mike" - everyone else on Active Rain has a prfile.... my lack of anonymity???? ... interesting....

Mike - I am not disgruntled.... I am pissed off a so called Christian organization does not address the issue that their endorsed mortgage company is raping clients! Period! End of story! Deflect the issues all you want with my improper grammatical errors of misuse of language or even the tone of my blog.... but you can't hide from the facts that are in black and white... the issue is still the issue....

What more evidence do i need to supply than the good faith estimate. I simply didn't want to name the loan originator or endorsed company because i felt the potential of that Christian organization suing me for slander... that is why i wanted a private phone call to release that information to the proper person within the Ramsey organization.....

you my friend sound like an impostor that works for Dave Ramsey... As i stated before... I had spent over $100 of my hard earned money on Dave Ramsey material..... so in all actuality, i am a client wouldn't you say?? And doesn't a client deserve to be addressed? Regardless of the tone of a pissed off email??? Address the issues big boy... stop with the political spin.... Dave Ramsey's endorsed mortgage provider attempted to rip off my client... it is in black and white..... please - defend how you can in good mind a so called Christian based company can charge a client 2.75% origination fee.....

PATHETIC!!!!!!!!

NOV

Okay- let us assume you are correct. Lets assume I *am* Dave Ramsey. Did you get what you wanted? Are you closer to being an ELP? Have you displayed the "heart of a teacher?". Have you figured out why there is an outrageous 2.75 penalty? If I were in you shoes, I would ask that client to complete a disclosure questionaire that asks a simple question: Have you EVER declared bankruptcy? Yes, it is legal to ask them, even if it is beyond the reporting time period. Yes, they can decline to answer, then it's your choice on whether to underwrite them or not. That ELP is probably trying to enable a loan while also protecting the rest of their clients.

NOV

Why would I have to ask the client to complete a disclosure? I pulled their credit. i can see if there was a BK and there was not. This client has A++ credit... regardless.... I follow the same lending guidelines and get the same pricing Ramsey's mortgage company gets....

Whats with you Mike? You clearly have NO understanding of mortgage lending and are obviously an impostor if you pretend to be Dave Ramsey.... 2.75% points is a rip off! plain and simple.... want to discuss further? call me anytime direct -- 301-332-9540

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