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Dave Ramsey - say it ain't so!!

Who is upset by those that say they care about us, but actually don't care. Their sites are set on the ALMIGHTY dollar. How many proclaim to be your friend, giving good advice. I am speaking about those that have their own talk shows, web sites, etc, etc.

Below, Lewis Poretz gives what I think is a good example of someone building fame in the mortgage world, yet something doesn't smell right. Dave Ramsey has been respected by many... I don't agree with his main theme, that you should pay your house down as soon as you can... especially in today's market. But overall, he is selling his name to other loan officers, allowing them to use his name to endorse their name and or product... yet it seems that someone was getting very greedy. Lewis tried pointing this out to Dave Ramsey, but has gotten all resistance and negative feedback. It makes you wonder what Dave Ramsey's primary agenda is. In my opinion, based on the facts below, it sounds like the almighty dollar, coupled with trying to be famous. Again, just my opinion... but if I had a manager watching my e-mails... and a complaint came in such as the one Lewis sent, I would want to respond personally... and to look into these matters. But this has gone on for over 10 days now. Makes you wonder.

People... just be very leery of those that proclaim to be experts and such. Just because one might be all over the internet, have a great following, or be endorsed by someone else that you trust... doesn't always mean that they have your best interests at hand... food for thought. And please go back to Lewis's main blog, because there are some excellent comments that kind of make my point. Get to know who is actually behind the name. Please read comment # 15, by Ken Cook. This is part of my point. How does one become an expert? To be able to give advice that sounds great, but it might not be the best advice? This is slightly off topic, from my major complaint, but it's more food for thought. thanks

Via Lewis Poretz - expert mortgage advice:

Let me begin this post with this disclaimer…. THIS IS NOT AN ATTACK ON DAVE RAMSEY - he is an idol of mine… I have purchased his products and believe in what he is all about….   This is simply the facts on how their endorsed agents handle consumers and how Dave Ramsey personnel handle complaints…..

I am a huge fan of Dave Ramsey... honestly, he doesn't preach anything we don't already know but his delivery is spot on and about as real as it gets..... i recently received a loan proposal from one of Dave Ramsey's "endorsed agents"...

- let me ask the Active Rain community.... is 2.75% on the front end in ponts + junk fees what you would expect from the man, myth and legend called Dave Ramsey? I had to take a pic of the actual quote and insert into this post as I was not able to cut and paste it.... take a look for yourself........ i have left out the company and originators name, just as i did in the initial email i sent to the folks at dave ramsey --- see their reply below...... ** as a side note - i copied about 13 of my long time friends from AR.... we all know them...... these people know exactly how this went down.... it is a disgrace!

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One option I would suggest is going FHA. This reduces the monthly mortgage insurance by almost half.

Home Loan Specialist

XXXXXXX Mortgage

Office: 866-xxx-xxxx

Cell:

Fax: xxx-xxx-xxxx

Exclusively Endorsed by Dave Ramsey:

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I have sent Dave numerous emails and all they do is get screened by his workers..... see below... especially if you are a fan of his.... let me know your thoughts...

quote on 9/15/2009 30 Yr loan 5.125% 2.75% points cost of points $9679.56 est closing costs $2825.00 APR 5.56% huh????? I don't think so!!!!
___________________________________________________________________

Dear Dave,

I am a huge fan. I drive my wife and kids nuts making them watch you on TV and listening o your products in the car. I would give my left arm to be endorsed by you. I have tried multiple times but my requests go unanswered. With that said – I have a MAJOR concern.

I am an 18 Yr vet in the mortgage business. I believe in a fair profit. I believe in Dave Ramsey. I do not believe in flat out rip offs such as the example below………. *** I am NOT accusing the actual company off ripping off clients – however I can prove in an email I have possession of that the company in mention does not police their originators -- Let me break this down for you…. I was forwarded this quote from a past client who wanted a competitive loan proposal…….. My mission here is not to get anyone fired or punished but it is to make you aware of the lack of quality control your company has with regards to your endorsed agents…… in fact, I have removed the agents name and cell phone – if you want that information just give me a call…. I can forward the complete email…… regardless, this is not the Dave Ramsey I admire and turn to for advice on a nightly basis and I feel I owe it to you for all the free advice you have given me over the years.

I quote this refinance 5.0% ( which is par pricing ) and 1 point. The one point is my paycheck and it covers associated loan costs as well.

Your Dave Ramsey endorsed agent is charging the consumer 5.125% and 2.75 POINTS!!! On top of that, the APR – which is what the government tells consumers should be used as the basis for loan comparisons – is incorrect! I have not seen 2.75 points since the 90’s and the days of the 125% second mortgage……. this is worse than banks overdraft and over the limit fees….

Dave – say it ain’t so. Tell me you don’t endorse this crap……….. I look forward to your response….

Lewis Poretz
President – Open Mortgage

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Lewis, please send me the entire e-mail. We take these issues very seriously.

As an 18 year veteran in the business, you certainly know that all loan situations are different. I would ask that you allow me to find out all of the facts before accusing XXXXXXX of being “crooks.” That is a very hefty word to throw around. We have worked with XXXXXXXX for over 15 years and never have I had an accusation like that thrown at them.

I will definitely check into this once you send me all of the information.

Thanks.

XXXXXXXXX

Director of National Sales & Sponsorships

The Dave Ramsey Show

877.410.3283, ext. XXX (voice)

______________________ Below is my response to the original email from dave ramsey people.....

Wow - I think it is awesome you guys responded to this that fast….

listen, I am not calling that company a crook. The company does not create the good faith estimates, the loan officers do…… But I can tell you this – I am part of a weekly conference call of about 20 small and medium sized mortgage shop owners like myself all over the country… we call ourselves the mortgage mastermind group - we are experts….. we also have principals and morals and as Dave says “ a heartbeat”….   I will gladly forward anything you request but I would like a phone call from you guys just telling me my client or myself will suffer no repercussions…… in other words… I don’t want any pissed off loan officer coming after my ass…… so I don’t want my name or my clients name passed out…. can you call and confirm that?

Lewis   410-956-0050      below are comments from my group, they all love Dave as well….   I thought I owed it to Dave Ramsey to blow the whistle… I just don’t want to get in the middle of this….

Shit, tell David Ramsey that he should chop off this loan officers hand, for using him as an endorsement, when she is raping this person. Hey, I don’t see a huge problem with someone making $8,000…. But there is $9,600 in upfront points plus about 1 pt on the back end, which is another $3,500…..   so, $13,100 on a $351,000 loan amount?   Just a wee too much…..     if my client ever found this out, I would not have a client for life nor referrals.

Send it to dave along with a rate sheet

Send it to Dave along with a carefully crafted story and maybe he'll have you on the air.

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Lewis, I would have to send the customer’s information to XXXXXXXX in order to get the whole story. It’s kind of pointless without that, wouldn’t you agree? Making a judgment without that information is the equivalent of blindly taking your word over XXXXXXXX and forgive me if I decline to do that.

If you won’t give me the information then I cannot help your client.

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at this point i sent him the complete quote along with the originators name and contact info ---

All I want is a call from you… it is not the client you need to help…. he understands that it was a bad quote…… he can clearly see the charges in black and white… it is Dave Ramsey’s reputation…   why are you defending this shit…   here   do what you will but if I find you passed my name out as the whistle blower and something happens to me or my family by some loan officer who has nothing to lose I am giving forewarning… I want myself and my client to remain anonymous…   please   why do I feel as if I am the bad guy here????…….

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and this is the BS i get back from someone who works for one of my mentors.......

1)     You refuse to give me all the information needed for me to look into this.

2)     I have said that we take accusations like this very seriously and that I would look into this situation once you provide me the information I need to do so. You responded by accusing me of “defending this shit.”

3)     You’ve copied 13 people in on the e-mail chain who have nothing to do with this conversation.

4)     Your actions and your language are completely unprofessional.

5)     I will not waste a single minute on the phone with you.

6)     I will not respond to any further e-mails from you.

xxxxx xxxxxxxxx

Director of National Sales & Sponsorships

The Dave Ramsey Show

877.410.3283, ext. xxx (voice)

xxx xxx xxxx (facsimile)

Posted by Jeff Belonger -- The FHA Expert.com -- FHA Loans -- FHA mortgages - USDA loans on 09/25/2009 08:37 AM

Comments (10)

Mortgages in the Mortgage / Finance Channel

dave ramsey, mortgages, following those that give advice, all about mortgages

Originally posted at: Club Chaos Agents - All Things Hollish, Wacked, and Jacked: Dave Ramsey - say it ain't so!!

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10 Comments on Dave Ramsey - say it ain't so!!

SEP

I just posted on Lewis's post. I think Dave is way off base. If he want's to stay the expert, he needs to admit his mistakes. Hey we all make them and for him to move forth in integrity he needs to man up and say

"hey....made a bad call here. I was called out on it. Just a lack of oversight by me and my staff....blah, blah, blah,"

and then move on. But his Ostrich move won't sit well with the public....nor should it. Good call out JB.

Jeff - The rhetoric certainly ramped up quickly in the thread. I'm surprised that the Director of National Sales isn't more PR consious. Name brands take a long time to build but can be destroyed quickly. It will be interesting to see if this gains traction on twitter, etc.

The client certainly was getting raped and Dave should know who he is endorsing. I also understand why Lewis would want to confirm he wouldn't get dragged in the middle of this for being a whistle-blower, and why the client's name didn't matter. However, copying 13 people and using the language he did was unprofessional, and I can see why the Sales Director chose not to speak with him any longer.

On the bright side, Lewis probably accomplished what he set out to do -- bring the Loan Officer's actions to Dave's attention. They at least have his/her name and I think will likely confront them about it.

I agree with Nicole's post. Copying to 13 people and using that language won't get you anywhere and will end any communication. I do hope this does get to Dave Ramsey though, we certainly admire his work and listen to him often.

I agree there is a lesson here.....you must always be careful and pay attention to details even when you are dealing with someone you trust.

I dont want to leave my comment about what had happened to Lewis's communication here or anywhere because alot of this information is heresay. It is tough to know exactly what's going on without knowing exactly the borrower's condition, etc.

What I would say though about "talk show hosts, celebrities, etc." - They'll have their day to answer. Good or bad, it's really not so much anyone's concern.

Recently, I've too been "accussed" by a friend who said I lived as if I was going to take my $$$ to heaven, when in fact, I really had just lived a frugal life all my life. I really want to expand this is my personal post that yours have motivated me to do so.

Jeff - I can clearly see his points. Obviously thats a ridiculous quote. Coming from corporate america, I can tell you that I do not jump quickly when someone is accusing me of anything and using foul language. Im not a prude, I can take it when someone speaks this way. I've even been known to throw some words out myself (typically on the basketball court or golf course). Anyway, I think Lewis could have handled himself with a little more dignity, especially when he is talking about being the professional. Thats just my two cents on his comments. Again, I do agree that its an outrage and it needed to be brought up. I'm sure the LO has to pay certain fees to Dave Ramsey's group (just like a Realtor does) so thats another reason the fees are higher.

Believing everything anyone that has a website, talk show, etc. has to say is a recipe for disaster. No two situations are exactly the same, so these people that give general advice are just blowing hot air. It is much wiser to find someone that you can personally trust, that can analyze your personal situation and find solutions that will work for you.

SEP

What's with all those points? Is the lender requiring that? Certainly the buyer isn't choosing to buy down that many points. Interest rates aren't that high. Did Dave add those just for the heck of it? Does he get to pocket all the money from those points?

Jeff, your post caught my interest with the comment "How does one become an expert?". The first thing that came to mind is the number of websites that have EXPERTS promoted on their sites. I look at the EXPERTS title as nothing more than something that someone paid for. There are exceptions however in most cases these are purchased titles and consumers should do their homework before blindly trusting the EXPERTS TITLE. Consumers need to "FOLLOW THE MONEY" and if a website, talk show, or TV station is promoting EXPERTS, they need to ask who is paying for the advertised (and paid for) TITLE.

Taking it further in my mind, maybe that is the value of personal websites and blogging in todays marketplace. Search engines today are a good place for consumers to verify information. Blogging as you say is a great way to get information out to consumers, however merely because someone is a good blogger or good with SEO, does not mean they are a good Realtor or Loan Officer. Consumers need to Shop, Compare and Save. Who they deal with needs to be a combination of Price and Service.

Just my .02cents

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