"The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my profession."
                        -Spoken by Abraham Lincoln,

One of the most common statements from the "Religious Right" is that they want this country to "return to the Christian principles on which it was founded"

 However, a little research into American history will show that this statement is a lie. The men responsible for building the foundation of the United States had little use for Christianity, and many were strongly opposed to it. They were men of The Enlightenment, not men of Christianity. They were Deists who did not believe the bible was true.

When the Founders wrote the nation's Constitution, they specified that "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." (Article 6, section 3)   This provision was radical in its day-- giving equal citizenship to believers and non-believers alike.  They wanted to ensure that no single religion could make the claim of being the official, national religion, such as England had.  Nowhere in the Constitution does it mention religion, except in exclusionary terms.  The words "Jesus Christ, Christianity, Bible, and God" are never mentioned in the Constitution-- not once.

Most of the Founders were Deists, which is to say they thought the universe had a creator, but that he does not concern himself with the daily lives of humans, and does not directly communicate with humans, either by revelation or by sacred books. They spoke often of God, (Nature's God or the God of Nature), but this was not the God of the bible. They did not deny that there was a person called Jesus, and praised him for his benevolent teachings, but they flatly denied his divinity. Some people speculate that if Charles Darwin had lived a century earlier, the Founding Fathers would have had a basis for accepting naturalistic origins of life, and they would have been atheists.  Most of them were stoutly opposed to the bible, and the teachings of Christianity in particular.

"  The second President of the United States was John Adams, lawyer and diplomat. He wrote:

    " As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation.  But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?"

The third president of the United States was Thomas Jefferson. He had been the author of the Declaration of Independence . He Wrote:

      "I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature.  They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."
      .
We discover in the gospels a groundwork of vulgar ignorance, of things impossible, of superstition, fanaticism and fabrication ."

    George Washington  was a Deist like his colleagues. He was a Freemason. "His mention of Christianity was limited and superficial because he was not himself a Christian....

If the Christian Right Extremists wish to return this country to its beginnings, so be it...  because it was a climate of Freethought.  The Founders were students of the European Enlightenment. Half a century after the establishment of the United States, clergymen complained that no president up to that date had been a Christian. 

The Founding Fathers would turn in their graves if the Christian Extremists had their way with this country.

The contents of this Post can  be found in it's entirety  and is a reblog by permission from Our Founding Fathers

The owner of this blog takes no credit for the words herein contained in this Post...

 
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75 Comments on Our Founding Fathers

NOV
10
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Wow!  And I thought that the masonic movement (based on the bible) was instaumental in the founding of our country.

2:05am • #1
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Bonnie,

Thanks for stopping by..

Most of Our Founding Fathers were Freemasons so it would be correct in the first half of your assumption... History tells a different tale in as much as they believed in a Higher power just not the one foretold in the Bible..

To all who may stop by....

I am a Christian... My only intent here is to show historical FACT.

My belief is that because I believe the Bible to be true I am accountable to live a moral life according to God's Word BUT I do not believe it is our job as Christians to force all of mankind to live according to our Biblical Principles.

Even God Himself declared that many are called FEW will be chosen...

I may have political differences with Obama on some Issues but on Moral issues I understand he presides over ALL the people in the United States of America. People from all countries, all religions and many with no religion at all... I do not expect our leaders to  make laws to suit my personal beliefs.....and I have no understanding for Christians who scream for their political leaders to make laws that are unfair to a large segment of our society...

I believe that is what the Founding Fathers were smart enough to recognize and why they kept religion separate from their governing of this Country......

2:24am • #2
148,063 Points Hit Router

I believe this country was founded by men and women who believed in freedom of religion. we should all be free to worship ( or not to worship) any way we want

2:37am • #3

Linda,

 This will get a lot of response!  I appreciate the history lesson as I was unaware of what you posted.

PG

4:07am • #4

Sometimes it is better for me to keep my mouth shut and not say anything. Enough said.

7:07am • #5

Linda Mae,

What Being is John Adams referring to in this quote?

"And may that Being who is supreme over all, the Patron of Order, the Fountain of Justice, and the Protector in all ages of the world of virtuous liberty, continue His blessing upon this nation and its Government and give it all possible success and duration consistent with the ends of His providence."

8:51am • #6
123,250 Points 1 Featured Post Hit Router

Be that as it may, Linda, this country was founded on freedom OF religion and not freedom FROM religion.

Also, if you want to invoke the names of the founding fathers to support your issues and agenda you better be standing on the hallowed ground of FREEDOM and opposition to tyranny.  Our founding fathers were opposed to oppression of government and they established a free society where the government was there to protect the country from TYRANNY, not there to provide for every socialistic whim. 

While socialism was not a movement back then, it did exist and found to be extremely flawed in it's design, almost leading to the complete destruction of the original colonists at Plymouth in 1620-1621. During that time, the crops were put into a common Pot system and everyone was to give and take as they could and needed.  It didn't work. Not everyone gave and everyone took.  Governor William Bradford got rid of the common pot system and each family was allowed to keep all that they grew.  Gov Bradford: "This had very good success, for it made all hands industrious...much more corn was planted".  On the common pot system he said "it was found to breed much confusion and discontent"

9:17am • #7
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Your study of history is not complete.  First of all,  this nation was settled by the "Pilgrims" who were Christians fleeing England and the corruptions of the Church of England.  THe Pilgrims  and the Puritians settled this nation and the Puritans, if you will remember your history, were Christians who believed that the Church Of England and it's Reformation had tainted pure Christianity.

Pennsylvania was established by the QUakers, again, Christians who believed that the chuch had become corrupt.

Maryland was settled by Catholics.

Our very educational system was built on Christianity...

"All but two of the first 108 universities founded in America were Christian. This includes the first, Harvard, where the student handbook listed this as Rule #1: "Let every student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well, the main end of his life and studies is to know God and Jesus Christ, which is eternal life, John 17:3; and therefore to lay Jesus Christ as the only foundation for our children to follow the moral principles of the Ten Commandments."

If you are going to quote, please do so legitimately:  Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to Dr Benjamin Rush, April 21, 1803 (Rush was a signer of the Declaration of Independence, you know the document that states that we are endowed by our Creator, and he was a printer who mass produced bibles):

My views...are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others."

    Jefferson was opposed to the way the bible was being watered down to better suit the desires of the Pagans.

     

    Jefferson went to William and Mary college--yes, a Christian college.

     

9:45am • #11
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That's right........because there was no one here until the Pilgrims arrived. 

And was it not the religiousness of W&M that prompted TJ to establish that wonderful school in Charlottesville for the promotion of free thought?

10:05am • #13

Linda,   Sorry, but I disagree.  Here is a link for those interested in the truth.  I do not wish to fill these pages up with a lot of copy and paste.

http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=78

 

That should set the record straight!  Sorry if I just did what others above me did.  No time to read all, just enough to know I need to get this out there.  It disgusts me that a few of our founding fathers are all most on the left like Linda choose to learn about.  They used to teach this stuff in School before the left got ahold of things!

10:11am • #14
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Tchaka,  this NATION wasn't here until the pilgrims arrived.  No one has said that the land was devoid of life before the Christians brought life and liberty to it.

Jefferson established UVA because he felt that W&M did not provide for the study of Science properly.  He was right...UVA became the beacon in the nation for study of Astronomy, Philosophy and Engineering! 

10:25am • #15
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Um no, TJ had more on his mind than just the lack of sciences at W&M.

And thanks for your clarification........"No one has said that the land was devoid of life before the Christians brought life"...huh?

11:56am • #16
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John - A good number of our Founders were likely raised Christian and some remained so.  But a number didnt'.  There's no question that some would have struggled to remain truly Christian given their very talented minds.  230+ years later we still have debates/questions between scientific thought and the Bible.  Of course they had that back then as well and I would wager that some of the Founders rejected Christianity (or religion as a whole).  I see people claim Thomas Jefferson to be a Christian.....if anything he was a Deist.     

Look at the quote in your link by Carroll.....does that make him Christian?  There's so much open to interpretation there.  I'm not saying he isn't, but that's not a convincing quote to me.  In the end though, I really don't care what religion they were then, this is now.  We could switch to a Buddhist country at 5pm tonight and it would have zero impact on how I interact with people.   

 

 

 

12:08pm • #17

Tchaka,  I think the very fact that you write, "...some would have struggled to remain TRULY Christian given their very talented minds." says a lot about you.

You are a Christian or you are NOT.  And there are plenty of Christians who have great minds, like it or not.

Anyway, once again, you bring up one name out of how many and there is a lot more on that site than the page I linked to.  No argument, plain and simple.  Forget about TJ already!!  There were many more than him involved back then.

1:41pm • #18
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Thanks for the ongoing discussion ...

This could go on for days... The back and forth and that is okay you all are welcome to bring it on because There is plenty of History I would love to continue sharing... I will not delete any historical data opposing mine but comments meant only to detract or harass by members who are known to disagree with me simply to disagree will be deleted

2:29pm • #19
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John H. and Ron T.

Is America a Christian Nation?

 

The U.S. Constitution is a secular document. It begins, "We the people," and contains no mention of "God" or "Christianity." Its only references to religion are exclusionary, such as, "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust" (Art. VI), and "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" (First Amendment). The presidential oath of office, the only oath detailed in the Constitution, does not contain the phrase "so help me God" or any requirement to swear on a bible (Art. II, Sec. 1, Clause 8). If we are a Christian nation, why doesn't our Constitution say so?

What about the Pilgrims and Puritans?

The first colony of English-speaking Europeans was Jamestown, settled in 1609 for trade, not religious freedom. Fewer than half of the 102 Mayflower passengers in 1620 were "Pilgrims" seeking religious freedom. The secular United States of America was formed more than a century and a half later.

 If tradition requires us to return to the views of a few early settlers, why not adopt the polytheistic and natural beliefs of the Native Americans, the true founders of the continent at least 12,000 years earlier?

Most of the religious colonial governments excluded and persecuted those of the "wrong" faith. The framers of our Constitution in 1787 wanted no part of religious intolerance and bloodshed, wisely establishing the first government in history to separate church and state.

2:32pm • #20
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Wow Linda Mae, great job with this research.  To me it is obvious our country should not make laws based on one religion.  Period.  We have freedom of religion so that we may use our free will to decide which religion we follow, or if we do.  I just cannot understand why anyone thinks they should be allowed to force the rest of us to believe as they do. 

2:38pm • #21
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 I think it only fair to tell my opposers that I majored in American History and am a scholar of Our Early History, beform the pilgrims.. about the Pilgrims the Founding Fathers and beyond.. so you best do your FULL research and not just what you find someone threw out there as their opinion......

 

 

As for George Washington this is from the Epicopalian Bishop of Martha Washington's Church that George seldom attended

In a letter to Rev. B.C.C. Parker of Massachusetts, dated Nov. 28, 1832, in answer to some inquiries respecting Washington's religion, Bishop White says:

"His behavior [in church] was always serious and attentive, but as your letter seems to intend an inquiry on the point of kneeling during the service, I owe it to the truth to declare that I never saw him in the said attitude. ... Although I was often in company with this great man, and had the honor of dining often at his table, I never heard anything from him which could manifest his opinions on the subject of religion. ... Within a few days of his leaving the presidential chair, our vestry waited on him with an address prepared and delivered by me. In his answer he was pleased to express himself gratified by what he had heard from our pulpit; but there was nothing that committed him relatively to religious theory"

When it was time for Martha to partake in Communition George would always rise and leave the church and wait for Martha outside.

 ("Memoir of Bishop White," pp. 189-191; Sparks' "Life of Washington," Vol. ii., p. 359).

 Long after Washington's death, in reply to Dr. Wilson, who had interrogated him as to his illustrious auditor's religious views, Dr. Abercrombie's ,one of only two Bishops to have known Washington personally said,  a brief but emphatic answer was:

"Sir, Washington was a Deist."

Now Does ANYONE NEED A HISTORY LESSON ON WHAT A DEIST IS?

 

2:48pm • #22
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Ron As to Thomas Jefferson,

Thousands of his quotes are quite the opposite of what you choose to portray above... Just as any human can be heard to say a few good things ..If we are heard to say thousands of bad things ..What might you be led to believe about that person?

There are Volumns to contridict that Thomas Jefferson was a Christian......

Jefferson's Works, Vol. ii., p. 217).

The God of the Old Testament -- the God which Christians worship -- Jefferson pronounces "a being of terrific character -- cruel, vindictive, capricious, and unjust" (Works Vol. iv., p. 325).

In speaking of the Jewish priests, he denominates them "a bloodthirsty race, as cruel and remorseless as the being whom they represented as the family God of Abraham, of Isaac, and Jacob, and the local God of Israel" (Ibid.).

In a letter to John Adams, dated April 8, 1816, referring to the God of the Jews, be says:

"Their God would be deemed a very indifferent man with us" (Ibid., p. 373).

To his nephew he writes as follows regarding the Bible: 

"Read the Bible as you would Livy or Tacitus. For example, in the book of Joshua we are told the sun stood still for several hours. Were we to read that fact in Livy or Tacitus we should class it with their showers of blood, speaking of their statues, beasts, etc. But it is said that the writer of that book was inspired. Examine, therefore, candidly, what evidence there is of his having been inspired. The pretension is entitled to your inquiry, because millions believe it. On the other hand, you are astronomer enough to know how contrary it is to the law of nature" (Works, Vol. ii., p. 217).

 

His own opinion respecting the above is expressed in a letter to John Adams, written a short time previous to his death:

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" (Works, Vol. iv, p. 365). In the gospel history of Jesus, Jefferson discovers what he terms "a groundwork of vulgar ignorance, of things impossible, of superstitions, fanaticism, and fabrications" (Works, Vol. iv, p. 325).

 

3:02pm • #23

Linda,  Why are you only talking about the Constitution?  And I am still seeing only a few names here.  Can't prove it on the others, huh?

4:29pm • #24
353,605 Points 15 Featured Posts Outside Blog

I see my form of religion was stamped out in here. No shock.

5:10pm • #25
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I believe in freedom of religion as long as other religions do not vow to kill believers of mine.

5:33pm • #26
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John H.

I can spent countless hours and pages "proving it" as you say... The question is why do you want it proven.. I will gladly keep posting History..

The point is as the first paragraph reads:

One of the most common statements from the "Religious Right" is that they want this country to "return to the Christian principles on which it was founded"

 However, a little research into American history will show that this statement is a lie. The men responsible for building the foundation of the United States had little use for Christianity, and many were strongly opposed to it. They were men of The Enlightenment, not men of Christianity. They were Deists who did not believe the bible was true.

 

5:42pm • #27
Outside Blog

Linda,

I'm very intrigued by this post, lots of information review.  Naturally I do not believe everything I read, but will do additional research on the topic as it has sprouted a plant of curiosity in my mind.

I'm also curious, what is your religion?

5:46pm • #28
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Melissa,

Thanks for your comment...

I believe in the complete Freedom of ANY Religion as do you. As for religions who vow to kill another of a different religion...... there are Extremists to be found under the Guise of most all religions... Just as Jim Jones was a Mass Murderer under the Compete GUISE of Christianity...

My post is simply intended as a History lesson to those who continue to THINK America was Founded and INTENDED to be ONLY accepting of Jesus filled Bible Believing Concepts and Laws...

This is NOT so...

I am very devout in my faith and belief in Jesus as my personal savior BUT I will NEVER attempt to force my beliefs on others.....Especially all the people of the United States of America..

5:51pm • #29
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Melissa, I was saved and Baptized in the Pentecostal Church were I remained for 20 years. The past 10 I am at Praise Chapel... A Spirit-filled. Jesus as Savior.. Bible teaching NON denominational Church....

5:54pm • #30
Outside Blog

Does your church read scripture from old and new testament?

6:04pm • #31
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Melissa,

Yes. They do......

6:22pm • #32
Outside Blog

That's great, sounds like they are Bible based and encouraging others to participate without creating the great divide known as a label for a specific branch of Christianity.

Do they have a web site?

6:33pm • #33
289,960 Points Outside Blog

Linda Mae,

You talk about the founders coming from a place of European Enlightenmnet but is seems to me mostof them were from England which at the time was just about governed by the Anglican Church.  Most of the original laws of both Europe and America were based on Biblical principals because that is all they had to go on.. There have always been and alway will be dissenters but that does not change 200 years of history. Our President have almost always tried to downplay their faith because we were never supposed to have a national religion, Which by the way Christianity is not a RELIGIONAs a Pentecostal I know you understand that.But seperation of Church and state was never meant to limit religious beliefs but to keep the govt from limttting them. .Si I must respectfully disagree with you, it may be an interesting conversation to happen with your pastor

                       Be Blessed

6:43pm • #34
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Melissa,

Praise Chapel, Bullhead City

and Occasionally I attend Amazing Grace with friends

6:47pm • #35
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Hugh,

thanks for sharing your opinion with me....and with everyone...

Yes one thing about being a Pentecostal I firmly believe that "religious" people hung Jesus on the Cross and Christians (pentecostals) Cried.

What about "One nation under God" and "In God We Trust?"

The words, "under God," did not appear in the Pledge of Allegiance until 1954, when Congress, under McCarthyism, inserted them. Likewise, "In God We Trust" was absent from paper currency before 1956. It appeared on some coins earlier, as did other sundry phrases, such as "Mind Your Business." The original U.S. motto, chosen by John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, and Thomas Jefferson, is E Pluribus Unum ("Of Many, One"), celebrating plurality, not theocracy.

Isn't American law based on the Ten Commandments?

Not at all! The first four Commandments are religious edicts having nothing to do with law or ethical behavior. Only three (homicide, theft, and perjury) are relevant to current American law, and have existed in cultures long before Moses.

If Americans honored the commandment against "coveting," free enterprise would collapse! The Supreme Court has ruled that posting the Ten Commandments in public schools is unconstitutional.

Our secular laws, based on the human principle of "justice for all," provide protection against crimes, and our civil government enforces them through a secular criminal justice system.

6:58pm • #36
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oh just one more thing,

Why be concerned about the separation of church and state?

Ignoring history, law, and fairness, many fanatics are working vigorously to turn America into a Christian nation.

Fundamentalist Protestants and right-wing Catholics would impose their narrow morality on the rest of us, resisting women's rights, freedom for religious minorities and unbelievers, gay and lesbian rights, and civil rights for all.

History shows us that only harm comes of uniting church and state.

America has never been a Christian nation. We are a free nation. Free to Believe as we ALL wish....

7:06pm • #37
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And INDEED that is why Conservatives and some, NOT ALL, Christians Detest Obama... He believes in Governing All the People fairly in regards to religious  issues... He opposes making laws according to Biblical Principles as did our Founding Fathers...

7:09pm • #38
Outside Blog

I'm gonna jump in here.  I have several problems with the current administration.  Just one of my problems with O'Bama is he calls America a "muslim nation".

I do not agree that America is a muslim nation.  I believe we are widely diverse in our religions beliefs.

Thanks for letting me comment.

 

7:20pm • #39
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Melissa.. Anytime...........

Obama in his Speech clearly and word for word said.....

Obama, June 28, 2006 (as delivered): Whatever we once were, we are no longer a Christian nation - at least, not just. We are also a Jewish nation, a Muslim nation, a Buddhist nation, and a Hindu nation, and a nation of nonbelievers.

The meaning remains clear to any reasonable person. Saying that the U.S. is not "just" a Christian nation carries the sense that it is both a Christian nation and more: a nation of Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus and nonbelievers as well. Furthermore, any survey of religious beliefs held by Americans will show that to be a factually correct statement.

However,  the authors of mass e-mails have chosen to omit is the word "just," converting Obama's factual description of America's diversity of religious beliefs to a statement that some interpret as anti-Christian.

7:27pm • #40
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In an interview with Laura Haim on Canal Plus, a French television station, President Obama noted that the United States also could be considered as "one of the largest Muslim countries in the world."

Now to be specific there are 195 Countries in the world ..of them,  60 are considered to be the Largest Muslim Countries in the World...
Even though the United States comes in at last tally at about #55 It does officially rank in the largest Muslim Countries Worldwide.

So President Obama was not amiss when he made this statement.

7:36pm • #41
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John H.

Regarding #24

Here's Thomas Paine:

"I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible).

"Among the most detestable villains in history, you could not find one worse than Moses. Here is an order, attributed to 'God' to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers and to debauch and rape the daughters. I would not dare so dishonor my Creator's name by (attaching) it to this filthy book (the Bible)."

"It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible."

"Accustom a people to believe that priests and clergy can forgive sins...and you will have sins in abundance."

"The Christian church has set up a religion of pomp and revenue in pretended imitation of a person (Jesus) who lived a life of poverty."
7:42pm • #42
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John H.

let's hear from James Madison:

What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy.
7:43pm • #43
Outside Blog

Well O'Bama's love for muslims is not keeping them from trying to hurt us.  Talk does not seem to be working there.

If they are all loving people, why do they want to kill us so badly?  I do not understand why?

I do not see other religions lining up to hurt people?  Do you?  It seems this one sect of the muslim religion is determined to hurt Americans.

We are very hurt here in TX, the funeral at FT. Hood today would have brought you to tears.  My heart goes out to those folks.  Innocent lives taken for no reason.

 

7:46pm • #44
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Ron, I disagree with part of your concept......

As a Direct Decendant of Native Americans  America had already been "found."

The "Christian" beliefs of a handful of landed, white, male aristocracy, enslaving blacks and murdering Native Americans hold little credibility as to being "Christian" and should be dumped along with the notions of slavery we so wisely dispensed with on January 1, 1863.

7:49pm • #45
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Melissa,

I understand, BUT what that crazed sick demented man did is not representative of all Muslims....

Just as In more modern times, wars have been fought between Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland.. and between Jews and Arabs in the Middle East.   Tens of thousands have died.....Who would you say is the evil religion in those wars

8:02pm • #46
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Melissa,

Just a thought,

or I should say an uninformed Opinion on my part...

If we were not in their Countries... Iraq and Afghanistan killing them ... there is a possibility the extremists would not still be trying to kill so many of us on our own soil..

We need to keep in mind that 9/11 was retaliation against going in to Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Killing tens of thousands of Iraqi's in Desert Storm...

Unfortunately we did not finish the job then...

My son was a Marine in the Elite force who infiltraded deep in Country days before the ground war began.. I always felt they should have pressed in to Bagdad and taken out Hussein then... Even though it put my son's life in further danger....

By the way I am making my son's all time favorite dinner to night that he has had every year on his Marine Corp Birhday... I honor him and all of our Military Men and Women now serving and all those who have served....

Semper Fi

8:14pm • #47

OK Linda Mae, It appears we may be up to 4 or 5 out of what, 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence.  I truly believe that Christians were still the majority.

John Adams (SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; JUDGE; DIPLOMAT; ONE OF TWO SIGNERS OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; SECOND PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES)..."The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."

John Hart (JUDGE; LEGISLATOR; SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION)..."Thanks be given unto Almighty God therefore, and knowing that it is appointed for all men once to die and after that the judgment [Hebrews 9:27] . . . principally, I give and recommend my soul into the hands of Almighty God who gave it and my body to the earth to be buried in a decent and Christian like manner . . . to receive the same again at the general resurrection by the mighty power of God."

8:38pm • #48
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John - I did not select one person out of the list because that's all I could find.  If that were the case, I wouldn't bother arguing and as you should know by now, if I'm going to debate, I'm coming strong.  I selected Carroll because he was near the top of the list and because I was merely presenting one example.

I'm getting the sense that you are missing my point when I wrote, "...some would have struggled to remain TRULY Christian given their very talented minds." 

That's unfortunate.

10:44pm • #49
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George Washington was a Mason.   Washington was initiated, in 1752, in the Lodge at Fredericksburg, Virginia, and the records of that Lodge, still  in existence, present the following entries on the subject. The first entry is thus: "Nov. 4th. 1752. This evening Mr. George Washington was initiated as an Entered Apprentice," receipt of the entrance fee, amounting to ?23s., was acknowledged, F.C. and M.M. March 3 and August 4, 1753. On March 3 in the following year, "Mr. George Washington" is recorded as having been passed a Fellow Craft; and on August 4, same year, 1753, the record of the transactions of the evening states that:

 The primary leaders of the so-called founding fathers of our nation were not Bible-believing Christians; they were deists. Deism was a philosophical belief that was widely accepted by the colonial intelligentsia at the time of the American Revolution. Its major tenets included belief in human reason as a reliable means of solving social and political problems and belief in a supreme deity who created the universe to operate solely by natural laws. The supreme God of the Deists removed himself entirely from the universe after creating it. They believed that he assumed no control over it, exerted no influence on natural phenomena, and gave no supernatural revelation to man. A necessary consequence of these beliefs was a rejection of many doctrines central to the Christian religion. Deists did not believe in the virgin birth, divinity, or resurrection of Jesus, the efficacy of prayer, the miracles of the Bible, or even the divine inspiration of the Bible.

 Masons deny the deity of Christ.  They replace it with a \"generic\" God so that all members can be happy.

Even the Library of Congress readily admits that Washington was a "master mason."

 

 

11:43pm • #50
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1. George Washington was a Freemason
2. Benjamin Franklin was a Freemason
3. James Monroe was a Freemason
4. John Jay was a Freemason
5. John Hancock was a Freemason
7. Paul Revere was a Freemason
8. John Paul Jones was a Freemason
9. James Otis was a Freemason

In Addtion the following founding Fathers and Generals of the Revolutionary War Were FreeMasons (Diests)

Arthur St. Clair - General, Revolutionary War
Benedict Arnold - General, Revolutionary War
Benjamin Franklin - Signer: U.S. Constitution; Signer: Declaration of Independence
Benjamin Lincoln - General, Revolutionary War
Daniel Carroll - Signer: U.S. Constitution
David Brearley - Signer: U.S. Constitution
David Wooster - General, Revolutionary War
Edward Hand - General, Revolutionary War
Elias Dayton - General, Revolutionary War
Frederick W.A. von Steuben - General, Revolutionary War
George Walton - Signer: Declaration of Independence
George Washington - Signer: U.S. Constitution;
General, Revolutionary War
George Weedon - General, Revolutionary War
Gunning Bedford, Jr. - Signer: U.S. Constitution
Henry Knox - General, Revolutionary War
Hugh Mercer - General, Revolutionary War
Israel Putnam - General, Revolutionary War
Jacob Broom - Signer: U.S. Constitution
James Clinton - General, Revolutionary War
James Hogun - General, Revolutionary War
James M. Varnum - General, Revolutionary War
James McHenry - Signer: U.S. Constitution
Jethro Sumner - General, Revolutionary War
John Blair - Signer: U.S. Constitution
John Dickinson - Signer: U.S. Constitution
John Glover - General, Revolutionary War
John Greaton - General, Revolutionary War
John Hancock - Signer: Declaration of Independence
John Nixon - General, Revolutionary War
John Paterson - General, Revolutionary War
John Stark - General, Revolutionary War
John Sullivan - General, Revolutionary War
Jonathan Dayton - Signer: U.S. Constitution
Joseph Frye - General, Revolutionary War
Joseph Hewes (Howes) - Signer: Declaration of Independence
Marquis de LaFayette - General, Revolutionary War
Mordecai Gist - General, Revolutionary War
Nicholas Gilman - Signer: U.S. Constitution
Otho H. Williams - General, Revolutionary War
Peter Muhlenberg - General, Revolutionary War
Richard Montgomery - General, Revolutionary War
Richard Stockton - Signer: Declaration of Independence
Robert Treat Paine - Signer: Declaration of Independence
Rufus King - Signer: U.S. Constitution
Rufus Putnam - General, Revolutionary War
Samuel H. Parsons - General, Revolutionary War
William Ellery - Signer: Declaration of Independence
William Hooper - Signer: Declaration of Independence

William Maxwell - General, Revolutionary War
William Paterson - Signer: U.S. Constitution
William Thompson - General, Revolutionary War
William Whipple - Signer: Declaration of Independence
William Woodford - General, Revolutionary War

11:50pm • #51
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Once again the Definition of Mason (Diest)

Deists did not believe in the virgin birth, divinity, or resurrection of Jesus, the efficacy of prayer, the miracles of the Bible, or even the divine inspiration of the Bible.

Now you all can bring me any quote you find made by these men But I would think you should realize making one or two or a few comments  does not make one a Christian....

After all' isn't that what most all of you commenting here are saying about Obama... Just because he said it .."Don't make it so"

They are KNOWN Masons...

11:56pm • #52
NOV
11
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John H.

My point is not to say to you that there was not a vast number of Christians in those days as well. But it is notably arguable that the intent of our Founding Fathers was to keep their Religion... WHATEVER IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN.... out of the political, law making process of this country.....

If they were confronted with many of the issues that we are in this nation today... I just do not believe they would have allowed religion to overtake the good of ALL their Countrymen...For they truly believed that All men were created equal.....

and this is the VERY thing that I disagree with in our Nation today...

We are to live good moral lives before God to Glorify Him ... He NEVER instructed us to make the UNBELIEVING make their man made laws to suit our beliefs....

Until someone can PROVE to me with God's Word that our government made Political laws are to conform to scripture I will continue to believe that people who use religion to do so are perverting God's Gospels given to HIS CHILDREN ...

12:35am • #53
107,473 Points 4 Featured Posts Hit Router

Linda: I am a freemason and a deist. Your understanding of both of these is superficial and you have made some erroneous assertions in your original post. However, you're much closer to the truth than Bob (above).

Bob, Freemasonry has nothing to do with Egyptian gods or Satanism.  Mason's don't have a "Bible".  As a deist, I'll assert that any curses you've suffered are only those you've put upon yourself.

8:41am • #55
123,250 Points 1 Featured Post Hit Router
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Ron, I disagree with part of your concept......

As a Direct Decendant of Native Americans  America had already been "found."

 

"Be that as it may, Linda, this country was founded on freedom OF religion and not freedom FROM religion." comment #7

"First of all,  this nation was settled by the "Pilgrims" who were Christians fleeing..." Comment #11

GRRR...does no one know how to read?  I never said that Christians FOUND this land.  I said this NATION was founded/established/settled by Christians.   No, it's quite obvious that the native americans, decents from long ago Jerusalem, had already FOUND this land to be home.

 

8:59am • #56
289,960 Points Outside Blog

Linda,

You said that you thought that fundamentalist protestantsand Right wing catholics would wish to restrict womens rights, but I ask you "How are women treated in countries in which christianity has yuet to take hold?"

9:51am • #57

Hugh,  You mean the women who have to walk behind their husbands, not talk or laugh out loud, and on and on??  I am sure they love that lifestyle!

11:49am • #58
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Everyone, Thank you for contributing,

I have openly welcomed all your comments..

I agree with what everyone has contributed but I will have to agree to disagree with Ron T. because if one digs deeper in to the reality of the first "Pilgrims" you will discover that they were not just simply "Christians" fleeing Europe...

Sounds like another Post brewing as it is close to Thanksgiving.........

Will, Thank you for your input and clarification. It is always best to hear from someone who KNOWS

Hugh, BUT alas, if we allow the goverenment to outlaw a women's choice over her own body...WHAT COMES NEXT?

 

Bob and Bonnie,  The voice of reason....how refreshing.....

3:00pm • #59

Linda Mae, you are a precious jewel.  This was a wonderful education and probably the best blog ever posted.  It would not have been possible without many years of intense study and dedication on your part.  You have a fantastic base of knowledge, and look forward to hearing more education about the foundation of our great country.  Could you do one just on the Masons?  They were very interesting and had a great deal of influence on how this country was formed.  Thanks, also to all who contributed and to the many well informed who did not try to silence you.  I would like to add a comment that I am thankful to our founding fathers who had the foresight to essentially say that government and religions should be separate.  No one religion should have any part of running this country, and government should have no part of interfering with free religious expression.

8:31pm • #60
Outside Blog

I believe in words like "In God We Trust"  if the folks that established our country did not believe in God, then why did they put those words on our money?

It was their choice right?  so why did they bring God in to the mix if they did not believe?

 

10:52pm • #61

Melissa, this was already brought up in a different blog.  The US currency never used to have it on there.  It was put on in 1873.  You can read up on it here.

Back to your earlier comment...

O'bama isn't Irish, it's spelled Obama. lol

I don't understand why if Obama is a Muslim sympathizer, why would they feel a greater need to harm us?  This sounds very counter-intuitive.  Who started that rumor?

All religions have their whackjobs.  Christianity has just as many.  Want an example?  How about when Serbia invaded the Muslim nation of Bosnia in the 1990s.  The exterminated thousands of men, women, and children.  They call it ethnic cleansing.  ETHNIC CLEANSING!!!  That's where one race feels another race should be wiped off the Earth.  How many times have Americans say we just just nuke 'em?  It's the same thing!  Of course, the greatest example of ethinic cleansing happened when the Germans exterminated millions of Jews.  Another example of mass violence in the name of Christianity.  

11:29pm • #62
Outside Blog

I don't really care about how I spell the name of this president, he would say he was Irish just to get the vote.

Too bad his politics are not helping anyways, regardless of how you spell his name.  I'm not a fan of folks that should be spending their time at the local spelling bee.

Aren't you the same guy that wanted pot legalized? 

FYI- your pot will cost less if it was legal, you don't seem to understand capitalism.

 

 

11:52pm • #63
NOV
12
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Melissa,

Thanks for stopping by again,

I see Arron addressed the money thing but here is a side note............

The motto has been in continuous use on the one-cent coin since 1909, and on the ten-cent coin since 1916. It also has appeared on all gold coins and silver dollar coins, half-dollar coins, and quarter-dollar coins struck since July 1, 1908.

A law passed by the 84th Congress (P.L. 84-140) and approved by the President on July 30, 1956, the President approved a Joint Resolution of the 84th Congress, declaring IN GOD WE TRUST the national motto of the United States. IN GOD WE TRUST was first used on paper money in 1957, when it appeared on the one-dollar silver certificate. The first paper currency bearing the motto entered circulation on October 1, 1957.

so as you can see the Motto "In God we trust" did not take effect for almost 200 years after our Founding Fathers signed the Declaration of Independence.

12:17am • #64
Outside Blog

I'm curious then why is it still there?  And don't we have more pressing matters to deal with at this time in our country?

I am proud that it says "In God We Trust" on our money

I trust in the Lord, so I  have no problem with it printed on my currency.

 

12:30am • #65
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Melissa,

I agree wholeheartedly with you...

understand I am a History Buff and my only intention with this Post is from a Historical standpoint... Nothing else....

I have very little problem with anything because God gives his angels charge over me .....

BUT there is a LOT of Drama around us at all times...

Don't ever let WORDS get you down...

I did and it is NOT worth it.....

God Bless.................

12:56am • #66
157,788 Points 18 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

Look up the treaty of Tripoli (Article 11) signed and negotiated by George Washington in 1796.

While many Americans practiced Christianity, this treaty reveals the secular nature of U.S. government.

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

9:08am • #68
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Aaron - We Irish gladly accept O'Bama as one of our own.  :-)

 

9:53am • #69

Tchaka, You need to take that off one of these days and wash it!!

11:29am • #70
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LOL!!!  Nice one, John.  :-D

11:44am • #71
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Tchaka,

Hey haven't seen that pic since the Election.... Very handsome indeed.....

 

2:24pm • #72

OMG  Tchaka!  Too funny!  Thanks for sharing!

Melissa - Why do you ask such questions and then criticize the answer given?  You asked questions, I gave you facts.  Sorry the truth is so... true, but it is.  Sure I was poking fun at your Irish take on Obama's name, hence the lol after my correction.  You offer nothing but mockery.  

Since you brought up pot smoking, here is why it would cost more...  Right now I can go to a local grower and he would sell it to a dealer at cost and then there is a markup before I can buy it.  I can buy cheap weed or expensive weed, kind of like buying wine.  There is good stuff and not so good stuff.  The point is there is no regulation right now nor taxes to pay on it.  Look how much taxes are placed on a pack of cigarettes.  If the government legalizes it, there will be high taxes on it, more regulation to pay for, and they would only allow for a certain grade to be used for consumption.  If you want proof, look at how expensive pot is in California when you buy it in at a dispensary.  It's much more than if you bought it from a common street dealer.  So much for your quip on capitalism.

Oh, and before you try and tell me how bad it is for me, you should read how the American Medical Association has recently said there were benefits to marijuana and that it should be reclassified

8:58pm • #73
Outside Blog

Aaron- If pot was legalized it would be ok for you to grown your own to support your habit.

Good luck to you.

11:58pm • #74
NOV
13

Well then, I think I have seen enough to know my initial feelings on something were right.  Oh, what a feeling!

Aaron,  If we had a different tax structure, the dealers would pay tax when they BUY stuff and then we would be getting taxes out of them!

6:33am • #75
NOV
15

Re: O'Bamma, I do think he is part Irish. 

Re: Someone said "Mason's don't have a Bible."  I beg to differ.  They don't have their own version., but each member is has in their possession a King James' version. 

"In all the rich symbolism of Ancient Craft Masonry, two symbols, predominate.  One is the search for light and the other is the labor of building.  The search for light is the Holy Bible.  The labor of building is the grand representation of the builder's art, King Solomon's Temple."

Freemasonry does have its roots in King Solomon's Temple and even before to the builders and designers, back to ancient Egypt.  Some Egyptian words are still in the rites.  But don't equate this with satanism or any Egyptian religion; it has to do with the art of math and building techniques.

Many of our Founding Fathers were Masons.  You can still see some of the symbols today.  Take the U.S. dollar design for example.   The all seeing eye of God above the pyramid is a Masonic symbol.  So are the columns on the backs of some coins.  These are just a couple of examples.  The Masonic rites and beliefs had considerable influence on how our nation was formed.  An entire blog on this topic would be exciting.  Anyone want to take it on?

10:58am • #76
NOV
16
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Dan - I do believe Dunham to be English, but I do think you're correct in that there's some Irish in O'Bama.  Er...I mean Obama.  >:-)

1:07am • #77
Outside Blog

your so funny tchaka

2:30am • #78
NOV
17
283,411 Points 1 Featured Post Outside Blog

Dan, Tchaka, Aaron, Melissa, I am answering for Linda Mae for the time being, while she recuperates from a medical problem.  I'm sure she will be back in fine form very soon.

8:03pm • #79
DEC
02

Linda Mae,

This is one of the best blogs I have ever read.  I am happy to see that you, as a devout Christian, also know the history of our country and its founders.  I have seen so many "Christians" claim that our country was founded by Christians, when they have simply been brainwashed by Hannity, Limbaugh, O'Reilly, et al.

9:14pm • #80
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Bob,

Thank you for the compliment..

It is my Goal as a Christian to Always seek the truth  whatever it is...

Isn't that what Jesus REALLY wants from us?

By the way I partially grew up in your area and attended Pioneer High school..... would have graduated in 1967........ BUT quit in the 11th grade to marry...

9:33pm • #81

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Linda Mae Croom (928) 768-3040

Topock, AZ

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