I've been debating whether to post this or not and finally decided to go for it to get your opinions. 

I would like to set the tone for this story about a Real Estate Investor who I will call JAKE.  Jake purchased onereal estate snake of our listings before.  He called without an agent, claimed he did not have one, we showed him the property, gave him comps, and did other due diligence.

Several weeks later, we received an offer for that property from Jake's real estate agent.  Although felt somewhat disturbed by Jake's ways, we decided to try to negotiate the best deal possible for our seller.  The offer had the typical seller's contributions, money back at closing and other manipulating schemes typical of this market.  We cleaned up the offer according to Fannie Mae guidelines, countered and we were able to achieve a sale.  Jake's agent did not do a thing; we had to do our job and his job.  Jake insisted in talking directly with us, the agent did not return one single call during the whole transaction.  Did not show up to appraisal, inspections or even the closing. But our seller got what he wanted at the time agreed, after many headaches and close calls.  We had to jump hurdles and were so happy when it was all done.

So a couple of months go by and I receive a call form Jake.  "Hey Ines, I see you have a listing I may be interested in, could you please send me the information via e-mail?"

I took a big breath, sent him an e-mail and asked sarcastically, "So I can assume you are not working with an agent this time either?"  Here's Jake's response (unedited):

Ines, yes i am working with a realtor however if you know how to structure this adendom and sales contract i will be glad to work with you. I would like to offer 500k with 3% sellers contribution back to buyer. I also want an adendom saying buyer would like to get back 70K at closing for repairs. i will put down 1,000.00 deposit and 49,000.00 15 days after excepted. I will give you a pre aproved letter with contract and a commitment letter with deposit and will close before July 25th. The total offer after money back is going tobe 415,000.00 less your double dip....

What do you think?  Please remember that in Florida we are transaction Brokers which is "a broker who provides limited representation to a buyer, a seller, or both in a real estate transaction, but does not represent either in a fiduciary capacity or as a single agent".

 

85 Comments on Investors that leave a sour taste in your mouth

Investors are another whole beast all together.  Any time I've encountered one of these guys it's been painful at best.  They are fiercely un-loyal (as you discovered) always want to manipulate the money into gray areas (as you discovered) and will walk at a moments notice when another deal comes around.  If you have no fiduciary responsibility to either the buyer or seller, that makes it a bit tough.  I wouldn't know how to act.  You know you're going to have to do all the work with Jake anyway, so you may as well make it worth your while.  I'd write it up and present it to the seller.  The worst they can say is no.  Or counter back to something reasonable for them and either Jake takes it or walks.  At the very least I'd get some agreement that the Earnest Money was non-refundable.  That way your sellers aren't out anything but market time if Jake flakes on you.

06/27/2007 12:08 AM by John Hurlbut (John L. Scott - Puyallup)


the part that scares me is him wanting 70K back at closing for repairs.  This will not fly on a contract, or even to be seen on the HUD.  This is FRAUD! 

06/27/2007 12:10 AM by Illinois Mortgage Lender | Kim Murphy (1st Advantage Mortgage, LLC)


Ines, where do these people come from? The way you took care of your client in the first transaction shows what a caring agent you are. Hope your seller appreciated all you did! That buyer and his "agent" are not to be trusted. Did he beat on your seller for concessions? Is that legal in Florida?

06/27/2007 12:10 AM by Sandra Williams (Rancon Real Estate)


Ines,

I'm a little confused about your comment of "transaction brokers" and no fiduciary duty. Can you explain a little more? And, it's $50,000 down and $70,000 back, is that correct? Also, is the price increased to help compensate for the $70,000?

06/27/2007 12:15 AM by Orange Co. Real Estate~Lynda Eisenmann, Broker-Owner, Brea, CA (Preferred Home Brokers)


Ug...the issue of "secret money"...  I say do what you did the first time, find a way to make it work and go for it.  You don't have to prove yourself because he knows that you know what you are doing.  I don't know the real estate side of the issue with his Realtor, so I won't touch that...

06/27/2007 12:34 AM by Your Tampa Bay Mortgage Source


What's with the $70,000 back? Is he trying to commit mortgage fraud? I hate working with investors. It makes me feel like I might as well go sell used cars. (Not that there's anything wrong with that-it's just not what I want to do!)

06/27/2007 12:40 AM by Lisa Hill (Daytona Beach Real Estate) (Adams Cameron and Company)


We are right next to used car salesmen to the investors...

06/27/2007 12:49 AM by Christine Zheng (Keller Williams Downtown)


Good investors, like good Realtors, are wonderful.  However this does not sound like a good investor.  Go with your gut and tell the guy to pound sand.  I would disclose the entire thing to your seller so that nothing could come to bite you later, but I would not accept an offer that is asking for $70k worth of contribution to fix items in a home that they haven't inpsected yet (I'm assuming).  Plus, a $1k EM-are you kidding?  This just says sleaze all over it.

06/27/2007 02:36 AM by Sarah Reece (RE/MAX Northwest)


Ines - I have to truly agree with Sarah's comment - if it smells like skunk, run - because pretty soon things are going to stink.  There are good and bad in every business and profession, sounds like this one falls into the bad category. 

06/27/2007 04:45 AM by Michelle Spalding - Transaction Consultant (Transaction Management Consultants)


Ines, you should ask Ed R. to come on in and weigh his opinion.  He is the mortgage fraud crusader, now!

06/27/2007 05:01 AM by Chris Elizabeth Griffith ~ Bonita Springs Fl Real Estate (Keller Williams Elite Realty, Bonita Springs, FL)


Sounds like he's getting some kind of kickback from his "Realtor."  I would be skeptical and for crying out loud, I would tell him to have his agent work out the contract. 

I also smell FRAUD.

06/27/2007 06:22 AM by Todd Murphy State Farm


That Jake the Snake sure gets around.  Mortgage Fraud is now a felony - so call the police :)

06/27/2007 06:27 AM by Beth Butler - EWM Realtors


Rule numero uno! Never take a call from the buyer! If they`re dealing with the Realtor,than tell them to have the Realtor call you directly!

 

Set the ground rules from the get-go!

06/27/2007 06:28 AM by Scott Daniels Florida Real Estate 2.0. Agents Earn 100% Commission. (Florida List For Less Realty, Inc. Broker/Owner. )


Ines...I would stay away! He sounds like trouble to me. Send him what ever info he wants about the listing and ask that his agent contact you... if there is further interest.

06/27/2007 06:41 AM by Monika McGillicuddy~NH Real Estate Broker (Prudential Verani Realty)


Ines, He can't get legally get $70,000 back at closing. It's fraud plain and simple. Just say NO.

06/27/2007 07:17 AM by Bryant Tutas-Tutas Towne Realty, Inc


Mortgage Fraud with the $70K back. I'm getting calls like this around here too, FROM OTHER AGENTS prior to putting in an offer or EVEN SHOWING THE PROPERTY. I tell them NO. I'm sure my sellers would love to do it - but I've had to keep telling them that we do not want to participate in MORTGAGE FRAUD.

06/27/2007 07:26 AM by Cape Coral Real Estate Broker | Susan Milner | Florida-Future-Realty.com (Florida Future Realty, Inc.)


Ines~

I know you love Florida, (where the game you describe may be being played) but why don't you just move to the mountains and deal with architecturally amazing masterpieces in need of stewardship ? Would THAT would make sense to your heart?.

In terms of "reality", I wouldn't touch the person or situation you describe with a 796 foot pole! This whole thing stinks.

BTW, on the subject of investors. A good word because I work with investor clients. And while my clients mostly are chasing appreciation and/or conservation-related opportunities, so may not be the norm,over the years I've not found one snakes. Simple rule: Transparent transactions.

06/27/2007 07:36 AM by Asheville's GREEN Land & Homes ECO-Steward Realty


Ines....  you should know this answer flat out. If you do handle this person, you would tell him that it can't happen this way. As several have said, you can't get cash back. Now. this is if they want a great deal in regards to rates and costs. If he is going through a private lender, this can be achieved. So, I guess I would first find out where the commitment letter is coming from. 

Again, there have been loans in the past, that can get cash back, but it depends on if the lender (private/hard money -not subprime) knows this and will approve this. So, before everyone jumps on this and says it's FRAUD, you need to go one step further and find out who the lender is.  

The one thing that jumps out is that this guy is already asking for addendums and states this. So, why does he need these on separate pieces of paper?   hhhhhhmmmmm

                                                                                                            jeff belonger

06/27/2007 07:44 AM by Jeff Belonger -- The FHA Expert.com -- FHA Loans -- FHA mortgages -- Mortgages (Infinity Home Mortgage Company, Inc)


He is a grauate of scammers university. If he has a bank that will do all of thise things I say let him. Then in the addendum you write in a disclaimer to show you are not his agent and that you also advised against the loan proceeds.

When he finally ends up in a mess you get the pleasure of watching him crash and burn.  

06/27/2007 08:04 AM by Paul Moye, Broker, ABR, GRI, CSP, e-PRO (Keller Williams Realty Franklin )


I have to tell you guys that I LOVED all the response here.  And yes we do deal with a lot of Jakes here in SF (unfortunately for us) and have made plenty of "legal and straighforward" deals happen.  I think in the last 6 months we have only receivedf 3 clean offers without seller concessions and weird requests.  It's a matter of assessing the needs of the buyer and seller and trying to see how it can work. (that's how we sold the first property to JAKE).

I won't tell you what I will do until I get some more responses - but from the first time I read "double dip", I know exactly what that was.

 

06/27/2007 08:23 AM by Rick & Ines - Miami Shores Real Estate (Majestic Properties)


Ines... great point. I read that, double dip, and I forgot to mention that part. To me, that is a FRAUD word. In this case, something doesn't mesh. But as I stated though, there are private lenders that would make this rare. Basically, they are private investors. But when you start making a value higher than what it is, that is fraud also....  even if the seller gets back what they want.

Again.... lol  that double dip phrase is a major red flag

                                                                                                            jeff belonger

06/27/2007 08:28 AM by Jeff Belonger -- The FHA Expert.com -- FHA Loans -- FHA mortgages -- Mortgages (Infinity Home Mortgage Company, Inc)


John - there are great investors and then there are the jakes of our industry.  What you wrote was my first reaction.

Kim - you are right - and we don't do "separate addendums" either

Sandra - seller contributions are legal in Florida depending on how they are done.  There is a limit also depending on the type of financing.  i.e. Fannie Mae now allows a max. of 3% when there is 100% financing - I'm sure the rest of the LO's in Florida can jump in and correct me if I'm wrong.

Lynda - the price was not increased (TG)! He's offering full price and I do think it's $50 down with $85K back.  AS for transaction brokers - in Florida there is no double representation, and if you ARE working as a single agent with all fiduciary duties, you must transition to transaction broker when dealing with a property listed by your same brokerage, or when dealing with seller and buyer. The duties as transaction brokers are:

  1. deal honestly and fairly
  2. account for all funds
  3. use skill, care and diligence in the transaction
  4. disclose all known facts that materially affect the value of the property that are not readily seen to the buyer
  5. present ALL offers and counteroffers in a timely manner
  6. exercise limited confidentiality, unless waived in writing by a party.

wow! I felt like I was back in RE School!  : )

 

06/27/2007 08:35 AM by Rick & Ines - Miami Shores Real Estate (Majestic Properties)


Leah - I do think I can make it work, that's what's interesting about this situation - the question here in what capacity I get involved from the get go.

Lisa - the jakes are always on borderline mortgage fraud - that's why I need to clean things up, it's not easy.

Chrisine - to these guys, definitely!

I have to step off for a little while, but I'll be back to keep responding to everyone!

06/27/2007 08:38 AM by Rick & Ines - Miami Shores Real Estate (Majestic Properties)


Technically, cash back is VERY legal, as long as it has been disclosed to the funding lender. <= which I have yet to find one that will approve this type of deal.

A deal is a deal.... tell them to start acting like a 'real investor' and put down a reasonable amount of earnest and stop trying to get cash back...... if they balk, you walk.

I hate working investor deals.

 

06/27/2007 08:41 AM by Tom Burris | Texas Home Loan Expert (DallasLoanGuy.com)


He doesn't want YOU to DOUBLE DIP???  Well, what would "he call it" when you're doing DOUBLE THE WORK for 1/2 the money?!?  I would tell him that HIS AGENT can work for HIS PART of the deal or you'll be happy to LEGALLY make it work and give "your seller" the minimal discount for his benefit vs. Jake's benefit!  I believe you can make him shed his skin....SSSSSSSSsssssssssssssssssssssssssssss   Do your thing Ines and keep him HONEST.  (if only on paper)

PS...It sounds like you need some of THIS for Jake too!! 

06/27/2007 09:19 AM by Real Estate Specialist | Brandon, FL | Susie Roscoe (Signature Realty Associates)


Ines, I have to say I would probably walk, even though you do not have stated fiduciary responsibilities, RESPA and other guidelines still apply.  You know this guy already and what his game is....you do all the work, he splits fees with his agent and goes on his way.  If you can legally do this and represent yourself without harm that is a different story.  Just for educational purposes, what is a listing agents responsibilities to their client in Florida?  Apparently single agency does not exist?  Nice post.

06/27/2007 09:19 AM by Gary White~ Grand Rapids Real Estate, FLexIt Realty, a call or click away! (Flexit Realty~Serving West Michigan)


  I know Florida is a much different market than here....I would like to have some of what this buyer is smoking....and would refuse the business.

06/27/2007 09:24 AM by Sally & David Hanson, Southeastern Wisconsin Realtors (First Weber Group)


Ines: I have received several offers like these on our listings. We present each to the seller, explaining what needs to be done to make it a clean transaction. We also warn them of the consequences for failing to do so. 

This is a very tough market for sellers and the temptation to yield to such offers is strong. 

06/27/2007 10:02 AM by Roberta Murphy ~ Carlsbad Real Estate (Villa Sotheby's International Realty)


Boys & girls, "double dip" is not a bad word to me.

My understanding of double dipping is that the listing agent gets both the listing and the sale side of the gross commission the seller has agreed to pay.

The 70K cash back to the buyer for whatever reason is a potential problem.

I like double dips both in commission and ice cream cones. My favorite double dip ice cream is Pistachio and Chunky Monkey, now there's a double dip you can get your tongue wrapped around. ;-)

06/27/2007 10:02 AM by Jim Lee, Knoxville Tennessee Realtor® (Realty Executives Associates)


 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry Ines. I could not resist the temptation. You and I both know I have a little problem with that. LOL.

TLW...ROAR!

06/27/2007 10:04 AM by "The Lovely Wife"...Broker Bryant's Wife... (Co-Owner Tutas Towne Realty, Inc.)


TLW,

I`ll have a #2 with extra cheese please and a fraud sandwich to go..This is happening more and more in our industry!

06/27/2007 11:05 AM by Scott Daniels Florida Real Estate 2.0. Agents Earn 100% Commission. (Florida List For Less Realty, Inc. Broker/Owner. )


LoL At TLW...  You goof.

Great post though ;-)  I'm a fan of anyone whom can bold correctly makes for an easier read...

06/27/2007 11:09 AM by Overland Park Real Estate :: Jordan M Mackey (Overland Park Real Estate - Keller Williams)


This post reminds me of why I don't work with investment buyers.  I also don't work with any buyer that disrespects the agent's role.  I also don't work with buyers who have any interest in how much money I am making. 

I save my time for honest residential home owner occupant buyers who, while like to get a good price and may need some closing help, they meet the Fannie Mae guidelines. 

Mikes life a lot easier when you don't have to worry about things like loyalty, fraud, insults.

 

06/27/2007 11:23 AM by Lenn Harley, Homefinders.com, MD & VA Real Estate


IMHO the most important part of his email is the first sentence. Once someone tells me they are working with an agent, the rest is moot, you have an agent talk to them. 

 

06/27/2007 11:42 AM by Terry Lynch (GMAC The Kee Group)


I don't have time for these kinds of people.  I try to let go of them as gently and quickly as possible before they bite. 

As was already said, your walking papers are that he is working with another agent.  Tell him to please only contact you through his agent. 

06/27/2007 12:48 PM by Marty Van Diest, Your Alaskan Realtor (RE/MAX of Wasilla)


Jake the snake is a cunning savy investor. But I do not see any reason to put down 50,000 then ask for 70,000 in return. Any bank will not allow that and hiding this from the HUD -1 is definetly fraud. Unfortunetly these things go on hopefully everything worked out for you.

06/27/2007 12:54 PM by Adrian ALVARADO VICTORVILLE REAL ESTATE (Citywide Realty Alliance)


The Jakes in this industry make it scary to do business.

06/27/2007 01:09 PM by Brian Persons (Brian Persons Front Range Home Inspections)


Yeah, the 'double-dip' got me too.  I know when I'm the listing agent, my fees are negotiated between my client and myself. Anything I decide to give to a co-op broker is between the co-op broker and myself.  It is not 'double-dipping' when I get paid my full commission agreed upon by my seller - it just means I did not have to pay anyone to bring a buyer to the table.

As far as the offer goes, I've done 'cash back' deals as well.  As long as everyone (and I mean everyone) knows what's going on (Yes, including the lender ... and I have the lender's OK in writing) it's not illegal as far as I know.  As long as the appraisal supports the sale (and it's an honest appraisal) you should be good.

Now, whether or not you want to deal with a personality like your buddy Jake is a completely different topic.  Sometimes it's not worth the frustration.

 

- James 

06/27/2007 01:19 PM by James Malanowski - REO Agent - Palmdale, Lancaster, Rosamond, CA (Coldwell Banker - A Hartwig Co.)


RUN!!!! That sounds ENTIRELY TOO COMPLICATED and CONVOLUTED to be anywhere NEAR legal. Where do these people COME from?!?

06/27/2007 01:30 PM by Mariana Wagner ~ Colorado Springs REALTOR® (Wagner iTeam -Keller Williams Clients' Choice)


Ines, like a good lawyer you knew that answer to this before you asked it.  There is no way this is going to happen legally with a Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, or FHA backed loan, so if it is one of those loans there is fraud involved.  If it is a private lender that is guided by different rules, and is not having the loan backed by Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, or FHA, then you have a different decision to make.  I would think that the lender and type of loan would be that same as before.

If I were you, I would just wish this Buyer good luck and move on. 

06/27/2007 01:52 PM by George Souto (McCue Mortgage Co.)


Ines, like yourself, as a Real Estate Agent in south Florida, I have also dealt with savvy investors who try to outsmart me all the time. Once I see trouble, I walk out of the deal. A real estate investor tried to pull the same thing to me as yours did to you but I told him that I no longer was interested in working with him and just like that, let him go.  It is not worth my time, effort and the countless hours that I put searching the MLS and networking with other Realtors trying to find a worthy investment deal.

 If I were you, I would walk away from Jake the Fake Snake. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me! Even if the commission is hard to pass, I stood my ground and decided not to let the investor that I was working with waste my valuable and precious time. There are other investors out there who are worth dealing with even though they are hard to find.

 

06/27/2007 01:57 PM by Diana Perez


my .02 cents:

the double dip just means getting paid on both sides of the deal, listing and selling. it shouldn't be the red flag nor is it illegal.

the 70K on the side is Fraud. the fact that he said 'addendum' is the red flag, because it will be conveniently left out of the package presented to the lender, and obviously left of the HUD. fraaaaauuuuuud.

there is a comment above about the lender ok'ing it writing. there isn't lender that will approve 14% back towards repairs IN ADDITION to the 3% seller concession. 3% is the norm, 6% is the maximun back.. not 17%.

send him a jar of vaseline for his stay at the federal prison. so he can grease his hair up really cool. ;^)

 

06/27/2007 03:14 PM by Nick M -Realtor®-Appraiser in West Palm- South Florida Real Estate Appraiser (Certified Residential Appraiser- West Palm Beach Real Estate)


As transaction brokers we can only provide limited information about the other party, as not to detriment the position of either side, but are still required to act ethically. This "Jake" character is no one I would want as a client. I wouldn't refuse to entertain offers from him or his Realtor, but I would refuse to be his Realtor.

Good Post

JC Wood - Brevard County Real Estate

06/27/2007 03:28 PM by JC Wood (RE/MAX Aerospace Realty)


You could just keep representing your seller in a single agency relationship and tell Jake that you would be happy to work with him, but in a Non-Representation Brokerage relationship. He can work with you all he wants, but you don't have to give him  the same representation as your seller, nor confidentiality. In this case, I would think it might be hard to keep the Transaction Brokerage neutral, as the buyer might be pushy and keep pressing for you to get his side of the deal done more over the sellers. I would tell him to bring his own agent.

06/27/2007 03:54 PM by Jennifer Kirby, the Luxury Agent (Exit Realty Eden Prairie)


OK - I'm back!! I apologize for being a bad host - but they rewired my DSL today - so NOW I'm ready - thanks for all the comments, good discussion and great food for thought.

Sarah - I guess it wasn't fair of me not to tell you the condition of the house. The house has been empty for 2 years and is in total disrepair. It is priced to reflect that, needing new roof, new electrical, and a whole lot of love. It is in a great location and housed in average condition are selling for at least $100K more. There are good and bad investors, this guy is one to watch out for because of the way he wants to structure the deal.

Michelle - remember that we aleady made a deal happen with Jake and want to keep the options open.

Chris - Where's ED? we need ed!

Mott - I know exactly how you feel - sometimes I feel like we have stickers on our foreheads that read "STUPID".

Todd - you are the first one to mention to have his agent work out the contract and THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT WE WILL DO! I can definitely clean out a contract, but I cannot and will not be part of drafting a fraudulent offer!

06/27/2007 03:58 PM by Rick & Ines - Miami Shores Real Estate (Majestic Properties)


Beth - you are right and we would never be party to that - but a lot of these TV investors have no clue what they can and cannot do. It's up to us to educate them - we figured he learned from the first time....maybe I'm giving him too much credit.

Scott - that's our rule as well - Jake kept trying to call us and we would tell him to have his agent call us - he got very annoyed.....especially because his agent did not want to work the deal.

Monika - it seems that I will have to tell him to have an agent prepare the offer. Unfortunately, I have to be ready to work a double shift on this one as well.

Bryant - you think? : )

Susan - no separate addendums, everything in the body of the contract - that's always how it should be.

JaneAnne - I would love to move to the mountains (on vacation) - I'm a big city girl - but the architectural significant properties really tempt me at times.

Jeff - the addendums also jump out at me, but nothing that can't be fixed.  Looking into who the lender is, is a great idea.

06/27/2007 04:07 PM by Rick & Ines - Miami Shores Real Estate (Majestic Properties)


Paul - "graduate of scammers university"...I love that! Remember that my job here is to sell this house, and Jake is a good potential prospect - just needs a good shower.

Jeff - the "double dip" comes from him thinking I am making too much money on the transaction if I act as his agent - it's him not recognizing that the person making his deal a reality is me and no one else - it's pure ignorance.

Tom - the EM is one of the most valid points - I refuse to take a house of the market with only $1,000 - and that's part of the "clean up plan"

Susie - OMG....you just cracked me up with that!

Gary - I do think this whole thing can be worked out legally, if Jake is willing.  As for single agent representation in Florida, we do have it (especially with buyer agents), but the agent needs to transition to transaction broker as soon as the same brokerage is involved (see above - I think I detailed it).

Sally and David - LOL!!  It sure looks like he's smoking SOMETHING!

Roberta - we do the same with our sellers and let them know that we will not be a party to anything that is fraudulent - it's plain and simple from the beginning.

Jim - you are a trip!  I love those double dip soft-serve ice-cream cones from Dairy Queen....mmmmm.

TLW - HA!  your comment was the only one Rick saw.....hmmmm......I wonder why!  you are the best!

Scott - how about a Fraud Shake, to go with Jake the Snake?

Jordan - we all try, bolding is not easy!

Lenn - my sentiments exactly!!  you mentioned every point I felt when I read that e-mail.

TLW - don't forget the SHAKE - or does that come before the Shirley?  : )

Terry - the only way this deal can work is if he has an agent ......I'm not drafting that offer.

Marty - you guys are good - I'll get to that

Adrian - Jake is a cunning investor....but I don't think he is savy

Brian - and make our job so much more difficult!

 

 

 

06/27/2007 04:25 PM by Rick & Ines - Miami Shores Real Estate (Majestic Properties)


Ines.. well, best of luck with this. I guess we'll know the outcome soon.....  thanks

                                                                                                           jeff belonger

06/27/2007 04:28 PM by Jeff Belonger -- The FHA Expert.com -- FHA Loans -- FHA mortgages -- Mortgages (Infinity Home Mortgage Company, Inc)


James - although I do not want to deal with jake and any of his cunning ideas, something inside tells me that I have to give my seller the benefit of trying to work this through. I will certainly warn him about our past experience, and he will make the decision of whether to counter and clean the offer or not.

Mariana - Rick is the most patient person I know.....he really knows how to deal with these kind of people.....I RUN! (you have a DEREK too....you should know)

George - it's funny you say that, because I been sitting on this e-mail and it really bugs me. The last loan was not a private loan and we made it happen...by the book. The optimist in me says it can, but I think it is important to know what Jake's intent is first.

If Jake's intent is to walk away from the deal with cash in his pocket, then the deal is dead.  If jake's intent is to try to play around with numbers and negotiate a deal.....it WILL happen.

Diana- in all of this, I am not thinking of the commission, I'm thinking of the sale.  I'm thinking of a really difficult market where the average DOM is 8 months!  will this be hard work?   absolutely: will it be a pain?  no doubt! 

Nicky Mississipi- a jar of vaseline? LOL! Everything we do is in the main body of the contract and I agree, there is no lender out there that will accept those terms.

Chris - double LOL for The Nixter!

Pam - That was hilarious!  I agree!

JC - remember it is our duty to present all offers - then we need to be very clear to our seller - it's not fun.

Jennifer - Brilliant!  that was not an option I even considered.

 

06/27/2007 04:39 PM by Rick & Ines - Miami Shores Real Estate (Majestic Properties)


Jeff - I will definitely tell you the outcome - wish me luck!

06/27/2007 04:40 PM by Rick & Ines - Miami Shores Real Estate (Majestic Properties)


OK - here's my thoughts on this predicament.

First, Jake needs to learn "investor etiquette", most savy investors will not be loyal to any one real estate agent because they think they will have a better chance of negotiation if they don't bring a third party in. Those investors will keep close tabs with their real estate friends for them to feed good "deals" or "opportunities". Jake is clueless, and in addition, he is arrogant and rude with the whole "double dipping" comment.

As for drafting this offer - the answer is no. We will not be part of drafting any offer that raises red flags or even hints at any type of fraud.

I am sure if I tell Jake the proper way to draft an offer, he will walk. The other option we have is to tell him to have his Realtor go ahead and draft the offer, after we know what Jake's intent is. Is it to walk away with money, or is it to purchase a house.

Once we receive the offer - we will write all addendum's in the body of the contract and will clean the offer up with BLEACH to get rid of the pesky little germs that could turn into mean viruses and we will see if the seller agrees.

I can honestly tell you that I hope Jake walks.....I don't think neither Rick nor myself want to deal with him again  - but we do owe our seller the benefit of the doubt.

 

06/27/2007 04:49 PM by Rick & Ines - Miami Shores Real Estate (Majestic Properties)


Kinda makes you want to suggest that he does get his own agent!  What a jerk... I've seen more than a few having been an investor myself.  The whole thing always felt a little dirty to me.  I guess that's why I'd rather be an agent!

Yeah, the double dipping comment... WAY OUT OF LINE! 

Good luck!

~Julie

 

06/27/2007 05:07 PM by Julie Ferenzi (RE/MAX Professionals South)


Double dip is considered Dual Agency in NC.   Done fairly it is something I do not have a problem with at all. It does mean you are essentailly Getting both sides of the transaction. (or you and someone in your office work together on the deal -Company gets both sides)

Since he called and you were the list agent, he would need to agree to Dual Agency and negotiate for himself.  He was trying to see if he could get you to only get list side, defer the rest, (like a fsbo reversed:-)  do all the work on both sides (like before) and he would make 70k along the way---and you would risk your license for that ??? Honey you pegged him right- a SNAKE---Run, Ines Run ! !

06/27/2007 05:08 PM by Michele Connors, Broker in Charge (Coldwell Banker First Realty Morehead City)


Rick & Ines,

How you spell addendum? Anyway, it probably is time to run, and fast. The first transaction looked kind of iffy and now the same investor is coming back for more. I'm not sure I understand all that he wants to do with the offer and when that happens, I just close the book and move on to the next project. There can be a lot of turbulence down the road.

 

06/27/2007 05:44 PM by Esko Kiuru - Las Vegas NV Mortgage Consultant (Sinifox Financial)


Julie - we will have him bring an offer in with another agent - we'll see what happens.

Michele - LOL!  It's funny how this guy wants me to negotiate my commission when it's between the seller and us - He knows what he wants to pay for the house, what my seller nets is none of his business.  It's really interesting how RE law changes drastically from state to state.

Esko - turbulence.....that's a great word.....that's what's ahead without a doubt.

06/27/2007 05:53 PM by Rick & Ines - Miami Shores Real Estate (Majestic Properties)


We have seen a lot of "Jakes" try to work deals through my office...Unbelievable the nerve of some of these people...But they try because there are sadly agents and industry people out there that will go against the grain for some fast cash...

06/27/2007 08:23 PM by Caroline Carrara (EWM/Christie's-Las Olas, Real Estate)


Caroline - it was so great to meet you at our brokers open today. Thanks for stopping by.  We were discussing in another blog that a lot of these "tv informercials" actually teach how to do business like this.  It's pretty sad but even more sad what some agents will do for quick money.

06/27/2007 08:36 PM by Rick & Ines - Miami Shores Real Estate (Majestic Properties)


I love the part where he wants you to handle both sides, but give up part of the commission. Disregarding completely that the commission is set up between you and the seller and really has nothing to do with him. He is just trying to reach into your pockets the same way he is sneaking into the pocket of the seller. Of course you could take him on with "no brokerage" for his part and remain a single-agent for the seller. Sometimes, certain customers are just not worth working with.

06/27/2007 10:10 PM by John Elwell (CENTURY 21 Bill Nye Realty, Inc)


Ines- I think he said the "double dip" comment because he thought it would give you extra motivation to get the deal done for him. Like waving a big carrot in front of your face. Unfortunately, I have seen a few agents go for this type of thing. They put the offer together and get both sides. And block out the other agents from the deal. I think it is odd that he is putting $50k down but that he wants $70k back at closing. If it is priced appropriately based on condition, I say giving an $85k concession is not really in the best interest of your seller. The whole thing just seems a little off. Like he has watched too many late night infomercials.

06/27/2007 10:11 PM by Debi Braulik (Tacoma Real Estate) (John L. Scott Real Estate)


John - that's the part that really got me too - he has no idea what I've done for my seller already and it's none of his business - the non-brokerage is a great idea, but told him to go find an agent to draft the offer for him, since it does have "FRAUD" written all over it.

Debi - you just made me crack up with the carrot and infomercials - The house is priced appropriately based on condition but there is still room to negotiate....not $85K worth.

06/27/2007 10:33 PM by Rick & Ines - Miami Shores Real Estate (Majestic Properties)


Jeff - how do you always sneak in there?  : )  Thanks!

06/27/2007 10:42 PM by Rick & Ines - Miami Shores Real Estate (Majestic Properties)


He sounds like a piece of work. If you decide to work with him, I would be careful and double check everything!

06/27/2007 10:59 PM by Christy Powers - Pooler, Savannah Real Estate Agent (Keller Williams Coastal Area Partners)


There is an attorney that handles the close-right? The deal won't fly. If It is made to fly, then someone is pulling strings somewhere. be very weary. I personally wouldn't even consider working for them I would distance myself from that transaction. In any case the attorney involved would be the one owing a fiduciary? The lender won't approve it as the underwriting guidelines allow for on  6% contribution from the seller. The seller could do some of the remodel but that proabbly is not what he is really looking for.

06/28/2007 02:50 AM by San Diego Real Estate Voice authored by William Johnson GRI CRS e-PRO (RE/MAX Associates)


Jeff - LOL!

Christy - THAT, he is.

William - we would recommend for the seller to get an attorney, we would not work or represent the buyer in any way.  When I talked about intent it was to see if negotiating the price down of the house would be a possibility plus a 3% not a 6% seller contribution - once we know his intent, then we can see what our seller is willing to do.  (but again....not $85K worth).  You do have to be very careful with people like this, and we document every single step of the way, so we don't get dragged down into his pit.

06/28/2007 08:24 AM by Rick & Ines - Miami Shores Real Estate (Majestic Properties)


Hi Ines - what do I think?  I think Jake is a snide little trick...and that's only because I can't say what I really want to say given that this is AR.  After all the work you did the first time around where you DESERVED to be paid on both sides he has the nerve to mention a double-dip.  I have a feeling that the other agent had to fork over a portion of the commissions under the table too.

Have him sign a transaction broker agreement before you do anything for him.  If he doesn't, have him find his own agent and do your share of the transaction and not the entire enchilada.

And as others have mentioned, there appears to be some sort of fraud going on.  Perhaps you should complete the transaction along with the local FBI.  :-) 

 

 

 

06/28/2007 08:27 AM by Tchaka Owen (Elite Coastal Properties)


Tchaka - there should be a system where you could flag individuals like Jake for some police institution to investigate him and keep an eye out.  As soon as we told him to have an agent write it up because we would not be party to an illegal offer, he got nervous, said he didn't know it was illegal, tried to point fingers, and told us to forget the whole thing.

I know he will do it again, I know someone will fall for it, it would be great for him to get caught. 

06/28/2007 08:45 AM by Rick & Ines - Miami Shores Real Estate (Majestic Properties)


I am willing to bet he knows it's illegal.  :-)

I was told to call the local FBI whenever I suspect fraud in the works and let them decide what to do.  Although you're not getting the business now, I at least feel good that you don't have to deal with such a jerk.  Hopefully there will be a better mannered and more ethical client around the corner.

- Tchaka 

06/28/2007 09:09 AM by Tchaka Owen (Elite Coastal Properties)


Looks like everything that I would have said has already been said, so I'll just say "RUN." Run as fast as you can from this one.

06/28/2007 09:21 AM by Ryan Hukill - Edmond Realtor® (Hukill Group - Paradigm Realty)


Inez

I was a member of a real estate investor's association for a few years. The organization had numerous educational seminars on a regular basis