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List Not, And Ye Shall Not Be Judged

I thought I'd post some interesting facts you might not know about ActiveRain, the real estate network that is run by the same folks who bring you Localism.com. There's a perennial debate there, usually in non-public ("members only") posts, as to whether Realtors should be allowed to post listings so our colleagues can see them. In one recent thread, we had a lively discussion, in which myself and a few others were on the side of "yes, we should post our listings -- that's what our sellers hire us to do", but a substantial group (the majority?) wanted to prevent real estate listings from being posted.

I got to the point where I was going to sum up where we were, and I thought, you know, this really should be made available to consumers. Anyway, here's the summary I was going to post to the "members only thread":

We've have four members who are on record as saying that people who post listings in the Professional section of ActiveRain should be publicly flogged. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt that presumably they don't mean that in a literal sense, yet the precise figurative usage they mean is unclear.
Predictably, not a single member of the public flogging crowd or anyone from the anti-listing crowd suggesting less draconian measures has responded to my challenge to go on record on their own public web site or blog in front of their own potential sellers as agreeing with ActiveRain's policy against posting listings in the Professional Category.

An interesting upshot of this is that the advocates of "public flogging" probably do not advocate public flogging where their potential sellers will see them, but rather, flogging in yet another "members only" post. So what they're really advocating is nothing so open a process as a public flogging, but rather privately discouraging members (beyond the prying eyes of those interfering "consumers") to refrain from activity that is normally considered a part of their fiduciary duty, i.e., informing colleagues working with active buyers about new listings they have.
No one objected, however, to me quoting them as being on record against posting listings here. Now's a good time if you do, however, if I do get around to it I will honor retroactive requests.
Ted Maitski was good enough to document ActiveRain's policy against posting listings in the professional Category.
Diane Szoke and Carolyn Dubrofsky have pointed out that this policy appears to conflict rather obviously with ActiveRain's stated mission, of being "a free online community for real estate professionals designed to help them promote and grow their business."
The moderator of an ActiveRain group where we are allowed to publish our listings came in and commented on the correct process. Please note, however, that the correct process constitutes publishing our listings to a group that consists of 6/10 of 1% of ActiveRain's membership.

Posted by John Lockwood on 06/27/2007 02:57 AM

Comments (22)

listings

This post has been included in California Information Sacramento County, CA Information Sacramento, CA Information

22 Comments on List Not, And Ye Shall Not Be Judged

JUN

2007

I don't come to active rain to search for listings. I use this as a tool to improve my business and meet other like minded people. With 35k members on here it would be very difficult to find the information I come here to get. Listings are easy for anyone to find, I don't think another source of them is a necessity.

I would have no problem with making this statement on my personal website but I am certain that my being a buyers agent only would negate it's value for you. As a buyers agent I can search listings anywhere in the country any time I choose in an area specific manner.

Sorry to disagree but to me, the piling of listings on top of the good information here would defeat the purpose of this site. With respect to clients looking for a home, they too are better served with a source of Other information. If they want to view listings I think they would be on Realtor.com or some other area specific data based system.

Coming to AR, buyer's and seller's are getting something unique that they wont find in those places. Besides if they like something you said and may be moving to your area the can follow the link to your website and there they would find your listings which is where they should be. If they are just wanting to see listings they would have never stopped by here.

No, disagreeing is good. But you're not so much doing that as talking at right angles. Posting listings for consumers is somewhat noncontroversial. The no posting rule applies to posting them for our colleagues in the Professional category.

Yes, as a buyer's agent you can search for homes, and that's great. But don't feel like you can't participate in my unique "put your mouth where your mouth is" challenge because of that. :) Would you be willing to report to your buyers that you're so cocksure about your search methods that you actively discourage listing agents from sharing information about their listings with you? Do you tell your buyers that all you do is work on the MLS, and you don't deal in FSBOs or pocket listings that another agent might want to tell you about?

I appreciate your comments, but I just don't think excluding real estate from a real estate web site is a tenable position, no matter what side of the transaction you're comfortable working. I don't see a way to make it tenable, but perhaps some unusually clever person has figured it out.

I thought that AR wanted us to post listings if we check the "listing" box for localism. Maybe I'm mistaken.

John,

Thank you for taking the time to try to help the blog challenged. Every time I think I have an understanding of how something works, I find out that I do not.

As to policy on active rain, I shall assume we are working under a monarchy - no sure whose - not a democracy where members have any say except to post blogs and hope you will be noticed? As I said......blog challeged.......

Hi Julie,

I'm not sure what we are, to be honest. I'm fairly confident ActiveRain has a monarch there somewhere (I saw his picture), but my sense is he's one that's benign enough to withstand a spirited debate about his royal fiats. Or his royal Vokswagons, for that matter.

In the case of this policy, what we read is "Most members do not want to see the listings in the Professional Category." So I'm going to guess that we have a benign constitutional monarchy which follows the popular will to a large extent. Thus, the policy of having a real estate community with no real estate, promoting one's business without having any, is actually a grassroots phenomenenon. That a majority of Realtors(r) should be opposed to real estate is probably not all that surprising given the often-quoted statistic that some 77-87% of Americans hate their jobs.

I'm not sure it's always a rose parade for me either, every day, but that doesn't mean I want to avoid it to the point of incongruity.

I actually find other people's listings pretty boring myself. That's not the point. The point is: that's my job. As my late friend Bill Nelson put it so eloquently, "If you want to have fun, go to Disneyland."

Hi John,

Thank God I found your post, because I was getting pretty dejected reading the other one. In my comments I asked quite a few questions for people to answer but I didn't really get a response. Maybe you can help me:

How can I find out the difference between Localism and ActiveRain Internet traffic. I seem to recall it being a rather sizable difference between the two?
What is unprofessional about listings?
Why are there only 673 out of 35,000 people on ActiveRain open to viewing Listings (Listings by Address - 468 & ActiveRain MLS - 205)?
Wouldn't it be interesting to poll Buyers to see how they feel about their respective Buyer's Agents and their aversion to viewing flyers and email blasts of properties.

Thanks again for your post. I really enjoy your writing style.

Thanks Diane/ Carolyn for the kind words (which one are you really? :)...

I take up the issue here as well:

http://www.sacramento-home.com/real-estate-events/2007/post-a-listing-get-a-flogging_646.html

For traffic, a lot of people use Alexa.com. See:

http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?q=localism.com/&url=localism.com/

versus

http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?q=activerain.com/&url=activerain.com

I find Alexa to be a bit obtuse, but if I'm reading it correctly it looks like ActiveRain has 10 times as much traffic.

More to the point is your other question, though, I think: What is unprofessional about listings? I find it either amusing or sad (mood swing kind of guy that I am) that the one forbidden fruit here in the garden of real estate is -- lo and behold -- real estate. Without listings, it seems to me, real estate reverts to its usual state: playing Freecell on the broker's computer.

John,

Thanks for the links to Alexa. It appears to be as I suspected that the traffic to ActiveRain is higher, and certainly more high profile than Localism at this time. Don't get me wrong I love the idea of Localism. I just wish a couple of things could be improved upon (do I sense another post coming on) such as the User Interface - it's just a bit dull looking for my taste. Did you know AR have now stopped awarding points for adding communities? It seems some people were abusing the system and adding rather questionable locations.

Thank you again, and I look forward to reading many more of your posts.

By the way it will always be me - Diane. Carolyn's very content being the "Uber Listing Agent" and she let's me be "Queen of the Blog"

Wow John I love your writing.

You could call it a monarchy or what ever you like, but the fact is we can only do our best to service you and all the membership.

Please know that when you post a listing it's still covered on your own blog, which is on Activerain.com.

Also, Localism is not a completed resource. We have a lot of plans to help you channel what you produce to many avenues. However these are in the works and completion time is a long way off.

We are working to help promote your business in many ways. Publishing a listing to your fellow real estate professionals isn't the only way to do this.

In my experience most members would rather not filter through your average listing. For some reason I don't mind it in my email from the local mail flyer companies...but then again they don't come so often that it's a problem. It's harder to opt out on AR when going through posts anyways. In email it's easier to opt out.

Thank you.

Seeing as Mr. Lockwood regularly engages in censorship on his site I find the hypocrisy ironic.

Okay so now you really have my interest peaked? Who is Robert Cote, and what did you do to make him so fiesty?

Lets agree to disagree. Each day my in-box is flooded with unsolicited email fliers from agents pushing properties from all areas of the country because they have managed to snag my email address (SPAM). Your listing is of no value to me if it is not in the area I service, it doesn not benefit your clients for me to see it. Unlike most I have chosen to work in a very small and specific area rather than three counties, 250 sq. miles or any place I may hope to find a deal.

Bombarding me with your listing is an invasion of my space. I have set my filter to send them straight to trash bin because they are unsolicited and unwanted which in my mind equals trash. So by all means continue to spend your money filling my trash bin and you will spend eternity there with all of the other self-centered agents (SPAMers) who have no respect for me.

On the other hand I belong to a web hosting community where I participate in the exchange and showing of listings of other agents on my personal website. I am notified of each new listing and these I do view because they are not unsolicited and come from the area I serve, not a hundred miles or even a thousand miles away. If I have a client moving to that area I am happy and unselfish enough to refer them to someone local who I feel will give them the service they deserve.

I am quite capable of finding available properties including FSBO's with out having to spend my entire day reading every listing in the country. This is a tedious and time consuming waste of my time. When I search for properties it is always area specific. Never have I randomly sold a property because some agent found a way to force it in front of me. As a matter of fact if you irritate me I will never sell your listing. You seem to forget that there is no perfect home; at best a home is a series of compromises so I don't feel I am doing my clients a disservice by not showing them a property of a listing agent who has no respect for my boundaries. I do this because I feel if you don't respect my boundaries how can I expect you to respect my clients boundaries. I stay away. If you are holding a pocket listing, why should I care? If you really wanted to sell the home you would put it where it can be found. I think this rant is more about you than your clients.

You are allowed to post your listings on Localism, what more do you need? Why is it you feel necessary to force it upon me where I don't feel it should be, especially since the majority of the members agree with the way it is currently done. What about the majority? Don't they count? Or are you the only one that matters? I get to see this attitude everyday here in So. Cal. I constantly ask myself why would any seller hire that kind of mentality but then I remember that like qualities attract. Which for me makes it two good reasons for me to drive my clients to the next one.

AR is home to valuable information that would be lost and or buried in a mire useless muck if you were to have your way. I read the post on Active Rain to learn about marketing ideas, SEO ideas and other such business related ideas not Listings. If you want me to think about selling your listing, don't force it upon me, put it where it should be and do your best to present it and yourself as a desirable property represented by an agent that I would want to do business with.

I tour every open house in my area every week if I am able. As a buyer's agent I am constantly amazed at how many listing agents pray that I have a buyer for their listing but do little to present the home or themselves to me in a light I feel their seller deserves. They seem to forget that when I walk through that door, I may be holding the buyer for their property and instead they act as though they are doing me a favor by allowing me in. Most agents don't even have the courtesy to introduce themselves, last week an agent in a $3.5 home didn't look up from his computer the entire time I and three other agents each from different companies, toured the house. If this had been the property for one of the clients I am working with I would have not let his lack of professionalism prevent me from doing my job but I question if this is the case with everyone coming through. Every agent I know wants to be thought of as a Professional but very few are willing to invest the effort to earn that title. Perhaps this is why the industry as a whole is viewed in such low esteem.

I understand you think your perspective is the right one and I respect your right to think that way, I however disagree and feel your perspective is myopic. Listings in the members only arena would not serve you, your clients or the membership. Try seeing the grander vision of this fabulous forum.

P.S. You should be flogged for putting this post in the public arena,(just kidding about the flogging but this is not the place for it). It however serves my point that this is more about you rather than what is right or wrong.

Thank you Diane. I'm definitely going to have to check out your blog more as well. Saw some of it briefly, the 5 minutes of caring stuff. Outstanding stuff, going straight to the heart of humanity and working your way out from there.

Caleb, thanks for the compliment and the clarification. I wanted to stress to the reader who asked about democracy / monarchy that I sure didn't think you guys were monarchs in any absolutist sense of the word. I think there's a great deal of both intellectual latitude and mutual respect here, and that reflects very well on your stewardship.

Anyway, as always, a kind word turneth away wrath, and it is what it is. It's probably not wise for me to choke on my steak over it, so for the time being at least I think I'll tear down the soapbox franchise. Darn, and I was hoping to sell it to Diane, too! :)

Robert,

That's right, I do. There's no hypocrisy at all. My business interests are served by posting my clients listings here, so I'm arguing for that, and they're not served by having unpleasantness on my web site, so if someone's being unpleasant, I censor them.

I don't enjoy it, I just do it. Perhaps we could avoid going down the same road here somehow.

Darrel,

Does this mean you won't tell your buyers about us?

No worries, dude. Rhetorical question. :)

What rant? I was having a reasonable debate with some friends about ActiveRain policy. Weren't you?

JUN

2007

John, we are still in the process of negotiating with AR regarding Listings. I too, am very passionate about advertising Listings in a Real Estate community. At the same time I am also just passionate that Listings not be spammed to other Realtors. That said, with positive negotiations and a community spirit, I am optimistic that Active Rain will see that blogging Listings is quite different than what is seen on other venues available for Listings.

Active Rain is the place to blog our Listings with good community information especially for those relocating and wondering about an area where the home is listed. This has been my goal, as moderator for Listings by Address with each of the members. It is a learning experience, just as blogging for many is a learning experience and certainly differs from the mundane, limited information that is found on MLS and other venues.

It would be helpful to address the positiveness and the informative aspects of what blogging Listings would be for the community. I believe blogging Listings to be a considerable asset to Active Rain where there is no other venue provided for such thorough and informative. I support those Realtors who go the extra mile and do more than copy, paste the mundane.

Let's all work together to make Active Rain a place where all aspects of Real Estate are welcome and acknowledged.

Hi, John- you provided a very compelling case for permitting listings, and are clearly seeking only to expose your properties on all available venues on...A REAL ESTATE WEBSITE. Maybe you can just (sigh) assume that if it's listed under "professional", the majority view this as a "me" (not consumer) venue, and list away- I would- knowing that it only takes ONE view from a local agent to show, and perhaps, sell it (having located it under the professional category)- our "profession" is about selling houses.

Hey Gena and Laurie,

Thanks for your comments. I was going to just let this drop, but there seems to be so much support for what I consider the right side of the fence that I may keep at it.

To me, I keep coming back to my argument that Laurie mentioned. (I love it when people repeat my arguments because it appeals perfectly to my narcissism. :). This is a real estate site. It is, by its own account "a free online community for real estate professionals designed to help them promote and grow their business."

Now, Caleb was very friendly and kind when he said that ActiveRain offers us other ways to promote our business. But there's a problem with that. Sure, as a group, we're famous for having big hair, gold jewelry, our heads on our business cards, our phone numbers on our cars, and otherwise saying "look at me" constantly. So that's fine, but our self promotion is tolerated only as an adjunct to the promotion that our clients expect us to do for them. Our sellers still expect us to promote their listings for them as dilligently as possible, and buyers still expect us to find listings for them, also as dilligently as possible.

Once again: we get paid to buy and sell houses. That's what makes us professionals, and not just amateur big-hair jewelry wearers. Putting up a web site for us "professionals" and not letting us do what makes us professionals in the first place is like inviting a man to lunch and then eviscerating him before he digests it. "But don't worry, fellah. I'm working on other ways for you to eat."

How about a web site for Doctors, but all you're allowed to talk about is malpractice insurance and Mercedez dealerships and how to talk down to clients. You award points for talking about your hypocratic duty to humanity or bagging on insurance companies or talking about medicine in a general way, but if anyone discusses surgical techniques or pharmocological treatments, they get no points for that and its considered "spamming".

I have still not had a single proponent of public flogging volunteer to post their position in front of their own buyers and sellers, even though I've made some three or four suggestions that that's what they should do if they believe in their position.

I'm happy to post my view of the debate. Again, I was going to let it drop, but first of all I'm not sure why I should pull my punches on this one, and secondly, if I'm going to suggest that my opponents' position can't stand the light of day and mine can, it behooves me to post mine. So here it is:

Post a Listing - Get a Flogging.

Go you one better -- I'll add this to localism for the metropolitan area nearest mine (assuming chaning it after the fact works -- I'll let you know).

I still haven't seen a single member of the pro flogging debate make a public comment about it on their web site. I should think that if you feel that strongly about your right as a Realtor(r) to be protected from inadvertantly buying or selling houses, you'd be happy to let your prospects know about it.

OK, we're there:

http://localism.com/real-estate/CA/Sacramento%20County/Sacramento

John,

I view your question as one of degree. It does not appear to me that you really believe what you are saying. Otherwise why are you not posting your listings in every comment that you submit to this thread?

;) (only kidding)

JUN

2007

Well...

My head is spinning. I wasn't even aware of this controversy. I regularly post listings on the consumer section so that they can be exposed to the public. Don't you think this better serves our clients?

It's not like AR members can't see our blogged listings. In fact Danny Smith and Rich Jacobson have been kind enough to regularly comment on the listings that I post.

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