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So if you proclaim to be Catholic....Are you a Kennedy Catholic or are you a Stupak Catholic?

If you proclaim to be Catholic.................

Are you a Kennedy Catholic or are you a Stupak Catholic?

I have written several blog posts about the Catholic Church and the struggle I feel in debating and learning who the Kennedy(Progressive) Catholics are. Here are links to those posts.

The face of a "Conservative Catholic" and the face of a "Progressive Catholic"

The Catholic Connection.....Are we ready to take back our Church and our Country......

Why be Catholic? With all the corruption in the Catholic Church.........

An amazing thing has happened this week and if you are not aware it could just be what brings down the Obama/Pelosi health-care bill.

I often wonder what is the biggest threat to Obama and his Saul Alinsky agenda.

Why is it that he has surrounded himself with radicals and why are so many of them Catholic??

I am a Catholic and I could no more vote for many of these so called Catholics who are in such high power in our government, nor could I vote for the most far left pro-choice President in the United States.

Well it is truly amazing how God works and he is definitely working things out in our Great Country. I believe he is drawing a line in the sand for Catholics. Obama and his cronies have used the Catholic church to promote his agenda and we are one of the biggest threats to stopping that very agenda. If Catholics are faithful to the beliefs of the Catholic Church we must oppose the far left agenda.

What I find interesting is that Democrats want Catholic votes, want Catholic financial support but when Catholics question the Obama/Pelosi Saul Alinsky agenda they are threatened. Looks like Chicago style politics to me.

Case in Point......

Dem Rep Lynn Woolsey Threatens to Sick IRS on Catholic Church Over its Opposition to ObamaCare....

Lynn Woolsey: IRS should scrutinize bishops - Rep. Lynn Woolsey ...

"I expect political hardball on any legislation as important as the health care bill. I just didn't expect it from the United States Council of Catholic Bishops (USCCB). Who elected them to Congress?

The role the bishops played in the pushing the Stupak amendment, which unfairly restricts access for low-income women to insurance coverage for abortions, was more than mere advocacy.

They seemed to dictate the finer points of the amendment, and managed to bully members of Congress to vote for added restrictions on a perfectly legal surgical procedure. "

Catholic Democrat, Rep. Bart Stupak of Michigan's amendment, "which passed 240-194, would prohibit the use of federal funds to pay for most abortions, including barring abortion coverage from insurance plans which consumers who purchase on their own using government subsidies. The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops and other pro-life organizations had threatened to oppose any final bill that did not include such provisions."

If they do this to the Catholic Church, they will be doing it to the Protestant Churches and the Jewish churches who oppose Abortion. The message is clear... if you are a person of faith you have no say in Government. This is not what the Founding Fathers ever meant by "Separation of Church and State" but that is what many in Government are claiming it means now.

I must say I am so proud of the Bishops who are standing up and fighting and it is about time.

I especially applaud Bishop Thomas Tobin for the open letter to Rep. Patrick Kennedy about his stance on abortion.

The Kennedy's do not represent Catholics and they most certainly do not represent American beliefs!!

Bishop Thomas Tobin who penned the impressive open letter to Congressman Kennedy

It will be interesting to see Congressman Kennedy's reaction to the Woolsey demand and the bishop's letter.

Here is what the letter said. If you are Catholic I would highly suggest that you read it, reread it and decide if you are a Kennedy Catholic or a Stupak Catholic. Your salvation is your choice. What do you choose.

WITHOUT A DOUBT Dear Congressman Kennedy

BY BISHOP THOMAS J. TOBIN 11/12/09

Dear Congressman Kennedy:

"The fact that I disagree with the hierarchy on some issues does not make me any less of a Catholic." (Congressman Patrick Kennedy)

Since our recent correspondence has been rather public, I hope you don't mind if I share a few reflections about your practice of the faith in this public forum. I usually wouldn't do that - that is speak about someone's faith in a public setting - but in our well-documented exchange of letters about health care and abortion, it has emerged as an issue. I also share these words publicly with the thought that they might be instructive to other Catholics, including those in prominent positions of leadership.

For the moment I'd like to set aside the discussion of health care reform, as important and relevant as it is, and focus on one statement contained in your letter of October 29, 2009, in which you write, "The fact that I disagree with the hierarchy on some issues does not make me any less of a Catholic." That sentence certainly caught my attention and deserves a public response, lest it go unchallenged and lead others to believe it's true. And it raises an important question: What does it mean to be a Catholic?

"The fact that I disagree with the hierarchy on some issues does not make me any less of a Catholic." Well, in fact, Congressman, in a way it does. Although I wouldn't choose those particular words, when someone rejects the teachings of the Church, especially on a grave matter, a life-and-death issue like abortion, it certainly does diminish their ecclesial communion, their unity with the Church. This principle is based on the Sacred Scripture and Tradition of the Church and is made more explicit in recent documents.

For example, the "Code of Canon Law" says, "Lay persons are bound by an obligation and possess the right to acquire a knowledge of Christian doctrine adapted to their capacity and condition so that they can live in accord with that doctrine." (Canon 229, #1)

The "Catechism of the Catholic Church" says this: "Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles, ‘He who hears you, hears me,' the faithful receive with docility the teaching and directives that their pastors give them in different forms." (#87)

Or consider this statement of the Church: "It would be a mistake to confuse the proper autonomy exercised by Catholics in political life with the claim of a principle that prescinds from the moral and social teaching of the Church." (Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, 2002)

There's lots of canonical and theological verbiage there, Congressman, but what it means is that if you don't accept the teachings of the Church your communion with the Church is flawed, or in your own words, makes you "less of a Catholic."

But let's get down to a more practical question; let's approach it this way: What does it mean, really, to be a Catholic? After all, being a Catholic has to mean something, right?

Well, in simple terms - and here I refer only to those more visible, structural elements of Church membership - being a Catholic means that you're part of a faith community that possesses a clearly defined authority and doctrine, obligations and expectations. It means that you believe and accept the teachings of the Church, especially on essential matters of faith and morals; that you belong to a local Catholic community, a parish; that you attend Mass on Sundays and receive the sacraments regularly; that you support the Church, personally, publicly, spiritually and financially.

Congressman, I'm not sure whether or not you fulfill the basic requirements of being a Catholic, so let me ask: Do you accept the teachings of the Church on essential matters of faith and morals, including our stance on abortion? Do you belong to a local Catholic community, a parish? Do you attend Mass on Sundays and receive the sacraments regularly? Do you support the Church, personally, publicly, spiritually and financially?

In your letter you say that you "embrace your faith." Terrific. But if you don't fulfill the basic requirements of membership, what is it exactly that makes you a Catholic? Your baptism as an infant? Your family ties? Your cultural heritage?

Your letter also says that your faith "acknowledges the existence of an imperfect humanity." Absolutely true. But in confronting your rejection of the Church's teaching, we're not dealing just with "an imperfect humanity" - as we do when we wrestle with sins such as anger, pride, greed, impurity or dishonesty. We all struggle with those things, and often fail.

Your rejection of the Church's teaching on abortion falls into a different category - it's a deliberate and obstinate act of the will; a conscious decision that you've re-affirmed on many occasions. Sorry, you can't chalk it up to an "imperfect humanity." Your position is unacceptable to the Church and scandalous to many of our members. It absolutely diminishes your communion with the Church.

Congressman Kennedy, I write these words not to embarrass you or to judge the state of your conscience or soul. That's ultimately between you and God. But your description of your relationship with the Church is now a matter of public record, and it needs to be challenged. I invite you, as your bishop and brother in Christ, to enter into a sincere process of discernment, conversion and repentance. It's not too late for you to repair your relationship with the Church, redeem your public image, and emerge as an authentic "profile in courage," especially by defending the sanctity of human life for all people, including unborn children. And if I can ever be of assistance as you travel the road of faith, I would be honored and happy to do so.

Sincerely yours,

Thomas J. Tobin

Bishop of Providence

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Posted by Alice Linahan on 11/11/2009 01:41 PM

Comments (57)

obama healthcare bill, patrick kennedy, stupak amendment, catholic bishops, bishop thomas tobin

Originally posted at: Alice Linahan's Thoughts and Opinions: So if you proclaim to be Catholic....Are you a Kennedy Catholic or are you a Stupak Catholic?

Post is included in group: Walking By Faith In The Rain!
Post is included in group: Tea Party
Post is included in group: Silent Majority
Post is included in group: 'ACTIVIST' Rain

57 Comments on So if you proclaim to be Catholic....Are you a Kennedy Catholic or are you a Stupak Catholic?

NOV

Stupak Catholic. tho i do know i have to wash my mouth out with soap regularly as I am done being pc and am of the opinion being nice to the thugs in power has not gotten through. they need to be communicated in the exact verbal language they understand. direct, blunt and severely honest to let them know we see through them...transparent they ARE, just not what they actually WANT.

kennedy is one of the major problems morally and politically...nuf said. great thread Alice

being a Catholic means that you're part of a faith community that possesses a clearly defined authority and doctrine, obligations and expectations. It means that you believe and accept the teachings of the Church, especially on essential matters of faith and morals - me: YES

Congressman, I'm not sure whether or not you fulfill the basic requirements of being a Catholic, so let me ask: Do you accept the teachings of the Church on essential matters of faith and morals, including our stance on abortion? ME: YES Do you belong to a local Catholic community, a parish? ME YES Do you attend Mass on Sundays and receive the sacraments regularly? ME: YES Do you support the Church, personally, publicly, spiritually and financially? ME: YES

Since when do we see children as a punishment instread of a blessing!

Alice- Abortion is just a issue that the left uses to get votes from those who don't want to own up to what they have done. Who want to think its ok. They NEED someone to tell them it was ok. How someone could call themselves a Catholic and voted for obama is beyond me.

Children are a gift and a blessing, not a political tool. They forget that all the time. Sad, very sad.

Alice: When I get to the point that I cannot imagine some of the "teachings" of the Catholic church... that they expect to be received "with docility" by their "flock"... as being teachings that would come out of the mouth of Jesus Christ... I choose to follow the way Christ lived his life while He was on earth, rather than the directives... the dictates... of the Catholic Church.

As far as the Catholic Church... which has grown to absolutely mammoth proportions... I recall Christ saying something about "My Kingdom Is Not Of This World." Does what the Catholic Church has grown to become follow those teachings ? I think not.

When the "window of fresh air" that was Vatican II was finally opened... my heart and my soul felt such gladness. Now that that window has been nailed shut, covered with duct tape, and plastered over... there is no more "fresh air" to be found.

My heart is saddened to see the Church turned into a political tool of the right. And... as such... I feel it no longer deserves to enjoy tax-exempt status. Just think of all the health-care that could be paid for if all Catholic Church property were taxed... just as everybody else's property is.

Karen- "My heart is saddened to see the Church turned into a political tool of the right."

If you opened up the window and stuck your head outside for a minute you would see that 45 million babies have been killed by democrat presidential voters. &$%#@!

Alice

This is definitely an information filled post! I feel that the president will use whoever and whatever means necessary to manipulate the congress and the public into achieving his narrow agenda.

Alice, To answer your question I am not a Kennedy catholic. I really do not see that the church has strayed at all. What part of thou shalt not kill does one not get?

Bless You Alice

I personally have opened a direct line to my Heavenly Father. I speak to Him at will and thank Him for the blessings I've received in this life daily. I beg His forgiveness when I sin, and try my best to be a good and honest person.

Children are God's greatest gift and better yet are Grandchildren.

Hi, Alice. Keep up the good fight. I will never understand a Catholic voting for a candidate that is pro-abortion. Does that answer your question?

Alice: If it's a choice between being a Kennedy Catholic or a Stupak Catholic... I'll take Kennedy. Thank you very much !

Also... a very large number of Republican women, and some Republican men... are Pro-Choice, and favor a woman and her physician to control decisions concerning her healthcare and reproductive care... including abortions.

The reason the Catholic church does not change with the whims of the populace is that the Church teaches the word of God. And the word of God does not change with the whims of the populace.

Alice - I find it very hard and very emotional to argue about the abortion issue. Frankly, I wish it would never have to happen. I guess that's a version of my Utiopia, to an extent.

Karen Anne said this, "My heart is saddened to see the Church turned into a political tool of the right. And... as such... I feel it no longer deserves to enjoy tax-exempt status. Just think of all the health-care that could be paid for if all Catholic Church property were taxed... just as everybody else's property is."

Abortion aside, and perhaps this is and deserves to be a different thread, she has a major point on that above statement.

It seems to me that if any of us feel that we are being taxed too much, perhaps we should also look at the variables who aren't taxed at all. Is there not some middle ground to it all?

Back to abortion... anyone who likes that idea (especially outside of rape or incest cases) is beyond me. I'm not a fan. While I believe in choice, I struggle with the choices some make.

@ Bonnie - "What part of thou shalt not kill does one not get?" For the sake of consistency, I'm assuming that argument and your view also applies to capital punishment? And how about war... okay, that may be a stretch. But I hope you are getting my vantage point.

Karen- It doesnt matter HOW MANY PEOPLE are for abortion its still killing the unborn. If everyone jumped off the bridge would you do it too?

Sorry for temporarily hijacking the thread but...

Patrick wrote, "The reason the Catholic church does not change with the whims of the populace is that the Church teaches the word of God. And the word of God does not change with the whims of the populace." I don't disagree if that is what one believes. But, back to Karen's point... is God tax-exempt?

How is the church being used as a tool of the right? The church is tax exempt as a nonprofit (but not a non prophit, ha ha) organization. I belong to another non profit organization also that is not allowed to use its money for lobbying efforts. That does not mean we are not allowed to discuss politics among ourselves.

The members, and the leaders, of the church, have the same rights as you and I to express their political opinions.

Larry: Whether or not a fetus is a person is a matter of belief, not of fact. I do not believe, and neither do many, many people, and many Catholics, too, that a fetus is a person. Therefore... it is not murder. What you believe is your business... and what I believe is mine. That is why they call it "faith."

Patrick: Discussing politics is fine. Using the Church as a way to lobby... either for or against a cause or a candidate... is a political activity. And... any church that does that, although they are of course free to DO that... should know that by engaging in political activities... they then become just the same as anyone else... which, of course, means they are no longer tax exempt.

NOV

Karen- If you don'tthink a beating heart with fingers, toes and the ability to feel pain is not a person then you wont be surprised when the death panels feel that someone over 60 is not worthy of life either. Nursing homes are soooo expensive, why not "just give em a pill" (barack obama 2009) But then again that wouldn't be your business would it?

Larry: Why do you have to try and tell me what I believe ? I know what I believe. And this silliness about "death panels"... I just cannot believe that so many seemingly intelligent people actually believe that nonsense. Do you have any clue what you sound like when you say stuff like that ?

Karen- You mean when I heard obama say with my own ears that "Drs., Hospital officials and government lawyers will decide the appropriate course of treatment for the patients"? Hey im just repeating what obama told us all. THATS the death panel NOT the end of life counseling the media is talking about. Are you calling obama a liar?

Do you really think all those young obama voters who throw their grannys in nursing homes until they die rather than have them live with them are going to give a rats behind if some of you take the pill rather than get the operation?

On the when does life begin issue? You are wrong www.abort73.com

Karen Anne - From reading the letter, would you say the bishop is speaking for himself, or on behalf of the church? He uses the word "I" when addressing the congressman, in what appears to be an open letter. I don't know who first opened the conversation to the public, so I'll leave that alone. Also, I don't see any campaign activity. Nothing questioning Kennedy's political record, or suggesting that folks should not vote for him. All I see is the bishop questioning Kennedy's status as a Catholic. 501 (c) (3) organizations are allowed to weigh in on issues. So the abortion issue should not be an issue in this either. Sardi - If you want to find out if God is tax exempt, there's one way to find out. Let me know how it works out.

"Discussing politics is fine. Using the Church as a way to lobby... either for or against a cause or a candidate... is a political activity. And... any church that does that, although they are of course free to DO that... should know that by engaging in political activities... they then become just the same as anyone else... which, of course, means they are no longer tax exempt. "

Oh I get it! You mean non-profits like ACORN!! The ones who have BEEN GIVEN $53,000,000.00 of the TAXPAYERS MONEY!! How much has the Catholic Church been given? Ah, none you say. Hmmm. Don't forget the additional $5,200,000,000.00 (yes that is BILLIONS) that the illustrious community organizer is giving to ACORN.

Alice- Very nice post! Keep it up.

Patrick- A little humor there. I love it.

Featured in Tea Party!

Alice, while I am not Catholic I attended the church for numerous years. My religious education and experience is wide ranging. Everything from the Quakers to Episcopalian to Baptist and Methodist...among others.

My belief might not be popular, but I will throw it in the mix as fodder for thought and discussion.

My faith tells me that God gave us the ability to make choices in all things. That was by design, not mistake. If he wanted we would all be puppets...but he gave us a gift of choice in our lives. These I believe to be a test of our faith and how strong we are in it. As we all know, words are cheap and worthless. Actions are what count. With that said, I believe that each person has a right to choose to do what God asks or not to. The consequences of course are a taking of a life.

My political response is totally different. The viewing of taking of the lives of millions of infants is the major difference in responsible vs irresponsible and moral vs immoral people. Abortion was brought about to keep the "unfavorables" from coming into this world. It still continues with the strong backing of powerful politicians. obama is a huge contributor to the deaths of infants. The POS he calls a wife actually had Fund Raisers to keep Partial Birth Abortion in IL. I hope I get to see her punishment for her part in infanticide of millions.

Dinah Lee,

You and I are on the same page. I have been asking that question myself.

Have a wonderfully blessed Thursday!!

Alice

Larry,

I do think God is working and he is changing hearts and minds.

Some just need a little more than others. Some need to see it clearly to understand. An example is the young lady from College Station's planned parenthood who resigned as director.

Planned Parenthood Director Leaves, Has Change of Heart

Thank you for taking the time to stop and comment and be passionate about this issue!!

Have a wonderful day today!!

Alice

Terry,

Amen my friend, it is sad, very sad!! Children are a gift and a blessing. If not to their parents to many who adopt and love them!!

Sardi - to answer your question:

"I'm assuming that argument and your view also applies to capital punishment? And how about war... okay, that may be a stretch. But I hope you are getting my vantage point."

There is a separation between church and state. Rarely does the Catholic Church outwardly oppose capital punishment. Personally it depends on the crime and the evidence. To carry out capital punishment in my estimation - it has to be iron clad - no doubt that the person is guilty.

As you may be aware, after the OJ case Barry Scheck became involved in death penalty cases. The first one where the individual was exonerated due to faulty DNA was Va. It became apparent that in many states evidence was bungled and there was a rush to judgment. Ill halted all executions until all their death row cases could be reviewed. The DC sniper who was executed the other day I had no problem with.

Self defense and war the Catholic Church does not weigh in on. If they did we would not have a single catholic in the military. While they may promote peace and an end to war, they do not view those acts as sins.

Originally I supported a woman's right to choose when I was young and dumb. I changed my position later. I am not in favor of abortion regardless how early it is. The loser is the child who is totally innocent and has no choice in the matter and no voice.

I am in favor of all groups who oppose abortion to stop spending money trying to change the law, and put it towards education, homes for unwed mothers, medical care and ultimately adoption if they so chose.

Sardi - should the church be tax exempt? Yes. If the Catholic Church is not tax exempt then repeal the tax exempt status on all religious organizations regardless of ideology.

Georga- I think we can add

obamas church

NAACP

NOW

Planned Parenthood

to the list of non profits who support political campaigns also.

Karen Anne,

I do want to thank you for taking the time to comment. I think that you and I represent a clear distinction between the Conservative Catholic and a Progressive (Liberal) Catholic. So I thank you for helping others especially those who are not Catholic see what a huge difference there is in our two postions.

What I find interesting is that while you say you do not agree with the Catholic Church you still say you are Catholic.

I would like to see your answers to the clear questions Fr. Tobin presents to Patrick Kennedy as the basic requirements of being Catholic.

!. Do you accept the teachings of the Church on essential matters of faith and morals, including our stance on abortion?

2. Do you belong to a local Catholic community, a parish?

3. Do you attend Mass on Sundays and receive the sacraments regularly?

4. Do you support the Church, personally, publicly, spiritually and financially?

Karen Anne if you do not meet these basic requirements what exactly is it that makes you Catholic?

Also you state....

"I choose to follow the way Christ lived his life while He was on earth, rather than the directives... the dictates... of the Catholic Church."

Are you saying the Jesus would choose abortion? Is that really what you think??

I think this is what he would choose. Click here!!

Karen Anne,

Children are a blessing not a punishment from conception to Life!! I think Jesus would choose LIFE!!

Blessings for you day!!

Alice

Patrick Scott,

Thank you so much for your thoughtful insight. I know you commented on my other posts about this issue and I thank you so much!!

Have a wonderfully productive and blessed day!!

Alice

Trey,

Thank you for taking the time to read and comment. I agree I think this President will use anyone to further his agenda and that is why we must all work together to fight these attacks from within. I pray daily for his seeing the light and for a huge conversion experience. And I think it would have to be a HUGE conversion!!

Have a truly blessed day!!

Alice

Bonnie,

Amen!! The church has been a constant. It is those within the church who have waivered.

Thank you so much for being YOU!!

Blessings my friend!!

Alice

Hugh thank you!!

God is working things out!!

What a gift!!

Bob,

I am truly blessed God has allowed our paths to cross. I am a better person because of it.

Thank you for answering God call to serve and love him!!

Morning Glory-Evening Grace!!

Blessings are abundant especially grandchildren!!

Yolanda,

Thank you for being a constant force for blessings in my life. You re exactly right. It does not make any since!!

Have a wonderfully blessed day!!

Alice

Sardi,

Just so you know I think you are one of the good guys! Thank you for weighing in on this post.

Question?

I thought Obama stated that there was no federal funding in the healthcare bill for abortions. Did he lie once again?

Woolsey states "The role the bishops played in the pushing the Stupak amendment, which unfairly restricts access for low-income women to insurance coverage for abortions, was more than mere advocacy.

They seemed to dictate the finer points of the amendment, and managed to bully members of Congress to vote for added restrictions on a perfectly legal surgical procedure."

Again I thought this bill had not federal funding for abortions!!

I for one do not want my tax dollars paying for another persons choice to have sex and then as they see it be punished with a baby!!

Sardi,

Have a wonderfully productive and blessed Thursday!!

Alice

Kevin,

Thank you so much for the feature!!

Have a great day my friend!!

Blessings are abundant!!

Alice

Georgia,

I am better off today than I was yesterday because you took the time to post on my blog. I love seeing your name because I know your post will be well worth my time in reading. You hit the nail on the head once again!!

Thank you!!

Here is more proof you are completely correct about Obama and his wife!!

Obama is now making good on promises to be the lapdog of the Planned Parenthood abortion business by promoting Planned Parenthood on his new volunteerism web site, Serve.gov. [full story]

Have an incredibly blessed day!!

Alice

Patrick Scott,

Just an FYI,

Here is the time line of the Patrick Kennedy/Fr. Tobin disputes.

Kennedy told CNSNews.com when asked about a letter the US Conference of Catholic Bishops had sent to members of Congress stating the bishops' position on abortion funding in the health-care bill....

then...

In a Cybercast News Service interview on October 22, Kennedy said, "I can't understand for the life of me how the Catholic Church could be against the biggest social justice issue of our time, where the very dignity of the human person is being respected by the fact that we're caring and giving health care." "You mean to tell me the Catholic Church is going to be denying those people life-saving health care?"

I am thinking of buying this van.....

It never ceases to amaze me that there are people in this world that claim to believe in God, in Christ, in the Bible and yet they still believe in abortion. You know what that is? It's a person that is delusional. They are not bible believing Christians. They have one foot in and one foot out. It isn't GOD telling them abortion is ok, it's the devil. When they face God they will know this, truly they know it already but refuse to acknowledge it. They will have to stand in front of him and explain why they thought it was ok to kill babies. What excuse can they possibly come up with? That it was just this adultry thing, that it was just this fornication thing, that women needed to control their own destiny cause God couldn't handle it right? They will have no excuse. PERIOD. Those people who profess to be Christians yet condone abortion are stumbling blocks. They will prevent others from becoming Christians through their hypocrasy and sacrilege and they will pay dearly for it. Those women aren't going to let ANYONE or ANYTHING even GOD tell them what they can or can't do with their bodies. Well, I hope they enjoy the 80 or so years they have on this planet because what they have waiting for them in the after life no priest can help them out of.

Thank you so much Alice! You are too kind. I always read your blogs because I find them so interesting. Stay strong. Stay the shining light "on the table" that you are!!

Alice- I LOVE that van, its just old enough for one not to care when a kinda hearted liberal keys it.

When JFK was elected some people thought that the Pope would be dictating American policy. My how far things have fallen since those days.

Calling Murder by a different name doesn't change the fact that it is muder, we have come up with fancy names like abortion and euthanasia but murder is murder

Cheri, So well said. Amen.

Hugh - Ever heard of anybody going to jail for committing choice?

NOV

Patrick, I make a choice every time some evil jerk makes me mad and I CHOOSE not to kill him. My neighbor spit in my face THREE times from deep in his SNOTTY throat about a month ago and kept telling me to hit him. Daring and taunting me to hit him. I told him I'd dealt with bigger jerks than him and he couldn't provoke me into assaulting him and going to jail. I continued to tell him he'd better not ever point a gun at my kids again or else.

Other people would have committed a choice alright. My husband wanted to kill him. He even asked the cop if he could go beat him up and how many days would he have to spend in jail for it. Unfortunately it was 6 months max. lol. He seriously needs his butt "spanked". He terrorizes the whole street, kills animals, abuses his wife and his kids.

We all make choices. I chose not to be provoked. My husband chose not to go to jail to teach John a lesson. Women could CHOOSE not to have unprotected sex and abortions would go down by....I bet 90%!!!!!

It's a matter of responsible choices and irresponsible choices but we all commit to a choice and some of us do go to jail for committing choice.

NOV

Karen....whether it is a person or not, it is life. That is truth.

However, I must say that I'm a Christian first, a Catholic second. If you're a heartfelt practicing Catholic, you value life, plain and simple. Really...there's eternal ramifications. Catholic or not, I don't know how anyone cannot vote to protect life. I don't care if it's a fetus or a baby or whatever else you "classify" it to be....IT'S LIFE.

Good post Alice.

NOV

Very thorough post Alice. Although I'm not Catholic, I nonetheless believe in the catholic church and we are all one body in Christ Jesus. With that said, I believe it's most important to not just know Jesus, but make sure He knows you! Although I'm not the ultimate judge, only God can do that, if I were one on the Kennedy side, I'd be very concerned with whether He will say on that judgement day, "Depart from Me, I never knew you." As we're told in His Word, it would be better to be hot or cold than lukewarm. The Church is not a social club or something you inherit through DNA, it's a personal relationship with Jesus.

Cheri: Blessings to you and I'm sure this situation will work out for your good. Keep praying.

Jason: God doesn't need to be tax exempt, he owns everything, thus He'd be taxing Himself to pay Himself???

NOV

Bob & Bonnie - I don't think that "God" cares much about financial issues. The organization that is often represented/representing God, does. That's my gripe. Besides, the "He'd be taxing himself to pay himself" reminds me way too much of what we are dealing with in our elected officials.

And to Cheri, I admire the passion you have. If you value life, then I would assume the death penalty would be out of your jurisdiction ... or beliefs. It's not out of mine. I'm still mafioso when need be.

Alice - To answer your inquiry, I really don't know. Personally, I don't think abortion should be federally funded. I believe in pro-active measures and education that may inhibit that happening at all.

Sardi, If you agree that federal funding should not be used for abortions then you agree with Stupak.

Bishop Tobin was interviewed recently in light of his Kennedy letter. The church does not interfere with executions. The church does not interfere with war except in the interest of negotiating. No Catholic has to confess carrying out an execution or killing a person in war.

So it is the churches position that neither capital punishment or war are sinful for a Catholic to participate in.

In the case of capital punishment the criminal has been convicted in a court of law for a crime - usually murder. In the case of war - the person(s) being killed would kill you first so it is self defense. You are also not guilty of a sin if you kill another in self defense.

That being said: The unborn child is neither a criminal nor is it at war with our country. The unborn child is innocent and unable to defend itself. Because politicians have created a law, making it legal to kill the most vulnerable members of our society, does not make it right in the eyes of the church. Any politician who supports the murder of the innocent through any means should not call themselves a Catholic.

A Catholic like Kennedy is an insult to the practicing Catholics who live their faith. He is a Catholic in name only. It is right that he is denied communion.

Voting to provide federal funding for abortion will result in more innocents being slaughtered.

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