How Would Have Thomas Jefferson Voted? Really, how?

I never studied the History of USA. I am picking bits and pieces as I go... I learned the History of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, and I knew nearly by heart all 600 page course book when I was taking the exam for my post graduate course...

Thomas JeffersonSo, I am a first grader in the history class here. And it is OK for me to ask stupid questions. Like how would Thomas Jefferson have voted on the Health Care bill?

Thomas Jefferson, who said "If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people, under the pretence of taking care of them, they must become happy." (Jeffersonian Cyclopedia)

It was written in 1802. Written By Thomas Jefferson, who in 1801 became the 3rd President of the United States of America. Well educated, he, between other things, "read lawwith George Wythe and was admitted to the Virginia bar in 1767.

The PresidentIn 2008, 207 years after writing this letter, another educated lawyer became the 44th President of the United States. And he advocates for a strong government "wasting the labors of the people", wasting billions and trillions of dollars on the way. If this is the opposite of what Thomas Jefferson wrote - remember "they must become happy" - does this mean that they will become unhappy? If we agree with the first statement, then it does. Is this Obama's goal, or he simply does not care what is going to be tomorrow as long as he fashions today?

Jefferson was a great man and a visionary. Not everyone, not even every President is. Maybe we can understand that the 44th President of the United States of America does not see the nightmare ahead of us...but how come he can't look back and recognize the nightmare behind?

Lenin's Hand115 years after this letter was written, and 92 years ago, in 1917 to be exact, another lawyer took over the power in another great country. He believed that it was possible to correct the course of history and expedite it. That strong government could make the progress happen much faster, and that all they needed was strong government that could lead people to happiness. He declared capitalism evil and promised to abolish money. Bringing people to happiness turned out to be tougher than they thought. Stubborn subjects refused to see the far fetched goals. They needed to be brought to the future with a little force. And that's how the Red Terror started. 

Lenin might have read Jefferson, but somehow did not get it. He thought he would rival Jefferson. But Lenin at least was looking ahead and thought he saw the bright future. There was no precedent yet... But decades later and millions upon millions dead, there is now...

We can't see the past in the future. It had not happen yet. But every future bears the seeds of the past, and looking in to the past, you can better understand the future. This is how we learn. On mistakes made by others.

But does he understand the past?

Does Barak Obama see the future or does he want to make his own mistakes? With dire consequences?

Which part of Jefferson's writing an educated lawyer does not understand?

 
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32 Comments on How Would Have Thomas Jefferson Voted?

NOV
13
180,225 Points 12 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Jon - Few in this country are familiar with the writings of Jefferson, Madison, or any other of our founding fathers.  Most, especially politicians, see the constitution and other writings as inapplicable to today, and unfortunately, we'll someday pay a dear price for ignoring the principles upon which our country was founded.

10:31pm • #1
588,837 Points 34 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Hit Router

I think that most of the Founding Fathers would be spinning in their graves if they knew what had become of their country.  Attach a few magnets to them and they could generate "green power"... 

11:20pm • #2
423,129 Points 59 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

Hi Jon!  To piggyback on Lane's comment--I think most of them ARE spinning in their graves!  I have to say that most American's don't have HALF of the American history knowledge that you do--KUDOS to you for sharing your never-ending knowledge with us.

Have a wonderful weekend...

11:36pm • #3
NOV
14
487,677 Points 1 Featured Post Outside Blog Hit Router

Jon

Lots of validity; remember politics makes strange bed fellows. Man, I hope I got that saying right.

12:11am • #4
368,890 Points 23 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

Oh Jon I so like you and love how your write - and find your points interesting........I didn't grow up in the Soviet Union -but did spend 4 years studying Soviet and Eastern European politics........having said that...........I so disagree with you about Obama :-)

12:19am • #5
102,252 Points Outside Blog

Since I LIVE in the shadow of Jefferson, Madison, Monroe * and YES, Wilson * while the founding fathers had far reaching ideals for the country, the times they lived in were ENTIRELY different.

Jefferson took care of his slaves * their health * EVERYTHING and while the days of owning (caring) for saves are gone, we have failed generations of our citizens by NOT educating them properly (thank you Mr. Wilson) and we have fostered the notion that the government must care for it's citizens.....these people just see "something for ME!"

6:04am • #6
577,499 Points 95 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Hit Router

Thomas Jefferson, who said "If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people, under the pretence of taking care of them, they must become happy."

Jon, I found this quote this week, you know I am big on quotes and thought the same thing about health care in particular and many other issues in general.

The principals the Founding Fathers lived by are true today, IF we would follow them. IF our legislatures would READ them. ONLY IF....

They served us well for most of our years and over the years have been slowly dismantled or are trying to be.

But....

I am a firm believer in the Spirit of the American People. There is a movement going on among Conservatives, and Indpendents to go back to the Constitution. I have a feeling we will get our bearings back.

I don't blame one party or one President most are guilty of taking us deeper into Socialism, just the latest a little bit faster.

The price of LIBERTY is eternal vigilance.

8:23am • #7
251,403 Points 1 Featured Post Outside Blog

Thomas Jefferson would call Republicans to left wing for him.  Most of our politicians have greatly lost their way and simply want to get re-elected at any cost.

9:37am • #8
339,563 Points 4 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Jon - Jefferson said some amazing things, but too many people want to ignore all of that because he was, wealthy, a slave owner, an individualist. While I am not sure that I would equate Obama with Lenin, (although, I admit, it has been over 30 years since I have studied Lenin, and the Russian Revolution), I do believe that Obama has an agenda, a very agressive agenda that is a blend of socialism/facism/statism and he is willing to totally ignore the framers and the founders, especially Jefferson. He firmly believes that he knows what is best and he is willing to ride roughshod over anything in his way of getting that agenda into place, including ignoring the wishes of those whom he "knows what is best for".

10:17am • #9

Nobody has given a damn about The Founding Fathers or The Constitution for a long time. Nobody in either party. They want to twist it and change it to fit their current agenda, but they don't honor it. Whether they are trying to amend anti-gay language into it, or ignore it entirely to do away with Habeus Corpus, it is nothing. Instead if abiding by the undying wisdom of the creators of this nation, they take bits and pieces and ignore the whole. Let's get back to basics folks. Neither party has your best interests at heart.

1:07pm • #10
Localism Sponsor

I was at homeschooling presentation the other day and one of the students recited the Declaration of Independence.... it gave me goose bumps.,

6:32pm • #11
103,259 Points 2 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Hit Router

Jon,  We think we are brighter and smarter than the visionaries who founded this country.  Times may have changed but values and the goals of our Republic should be held sacred.

7:15pm • #12
NOV
15
148,551 Points 4 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Jon - At regular intervals I tell you that you have a better understanding of our culture than those of us who have lived here and know no other system.  I enjoy your observations and value your judgments. 

Jefferson was a believer in limited government and the Constitution and the Bill of Rights were created as a limitation on government.  However, I note that TJ did not hesitate to exceed his enumerated powers to double the size of the United States with the Louisiana Purchase when the opportunity presented itself. 

It is my personal opinion that our Federal Government is closer now to the tyranny of King George III than we have ever seen.  This observation has very little to do with President Obama.  It is the result of a trend which includes most Presidents and certainly both parties for the last century.  Corruption and special interests have become the rule rather than the exception.

The concept of a living Constitution with endlessly elastic clauses does, in my view, violence to the Constitution and the framework of limited government which founded and sustained this nation for more than 200 years.  The framers provided an alternate method for the Constitution to evolve  to meet the needs of the people - it is the process of amendment.  At least the states would have to agree to a loss of liberty rather than merely have the Congress steal our freedoms as they continue to do.

The frequently repeated refrain of radicals and progressives is that the framers did not foresee the events of today and it is our responsibility to change the framework to reflect current events.  The term I have used in response in these pages is horsepuckey. (a term of art to be sure)  Whether spouted by a Republican or Democrat the intent is violence to the Constitution and a diminution of freedom and liberty. It is the supreme arrogance and a lust for power that drives these reformers - again in my view.

I continue to remind people at every opportunity that the only way for my government to give me a dollar is for them to take it by force from those of you who may read this. There is no free lunch and somebody, sometime is going to have to pay the bill.  We are irresponsibly and criminally mortgaging our future in an unconscionable betrayal of future generations in an attempt to centralize power and deprive the citizens of the United States of their liberty.  No democracy (or Republic, in our case) can survive after a majority of citizens discover that they can vote themselves benefits.  

Our willingness to depend upon the nanny state government instead of addressing social and economic problems in the free marketplace will change our nation in ways which I find frightening and ill-advised.  The current administration and Congressional leadership make no secret of their intent to fundamentally change our nation.  We can only voice our opinion and our opposition in the hope that the Congress will back off to keep their jobs.  

I find it hard to believe that a majority of the citizens of my Country agrees with the current administration - empirical evidence of the last two elections notwithstanding.  but it is one minute to midnight and the American People must raise their voices now if we are to retain our freedoms.  

I believe in the rule of law and I believe in (to quote President Lincoln) government of the people, by the people and for the people.  I view the current progressive, liberal, Marxist, statist agenda of the President and his advisors as the road to the death of freedoms that I thought were important.  But I am only one voice - and these decisions will require many voices.  I believe that our history over the last century provides proof that limited government, low tax free market environment and personal freedoms is the way to achieve greatness as a nation and a higher standard of living for more people than any other system on our planet.  We are, in my opinion, not moving in the right direction. 

"We the People" meant something when written in 1789.  It must mean something again today.

That is, at least, my opinion.

10:15am • #13
Hit Router

Jon, you are such an interesting guy!  I am very impressed with your knowledge of our history and current political situation.  I took a fascinating trip to Russia last year, and there is so much to learn about another country.  Thanks for all your wonderful posts. 

8:49pm • #14

Jon, Jefferson would have voted to take the money out of politics. Remove the lobbies and the massive influence that corporations have on our elected officials would be the first step.  Only then can we have a true democracy.

Until then, we'll continue to see the American taxpayer plundered, savings and jobs lost, leaving our people angry, fighting for crumbs, while the elite take their bonuses and vacations on our backs.

9:41pm • #15
NOV
16
Localism Sponsor

Jon - Since you are specifically asking about the health care bill, I had a nice long conversation today with a lady who in the past week or two interviewed Roslyn Carter, Bill Clinton and Newt Gingrich on the bill.  I then asked her what she thought of it and shared my thoughts as well.  I wouldn't be so sure that Jefferson would vote against it.  I am a firm believer that most people don't have an idea what it's about (I'll admit I don't know as much as I could).  Opinions are formed and passed on by pundits and lobbyists.

What's proposed is not perfect (in my opinion, never will be) and yes, it will cost money - particularly now.  But there's upside.  Lots of it!  We're looking at a fundament change in the healthcare system that will eventually benefit us much more than it currently is.  And part of that benefit comes from efficiency and streamlining which in turn will save money.

 

 

1:17am • #16
387,453 Points 23 Featured Posts Outside Blog

John - of course, times change, but we are talking about some principals, which laid the foundation of the nation, and it may not be wise to break the foundation and rebuild the structure when you can fix a leak in the bathroom.

1:29am • #17
387,453 Points 23 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Lane - it is a sad humor, man. I hear you

1:30am • #18
387,453 Points 23 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Debe - thanks for kind words. Not that I know it. But when I run into it, it fascinates me that such depth of understanding was way before we see these events happening. Every time it shows the caliber of people who were the founding fathers. The stars really alligned for the country.

1:34am • #19
387,453 Points 23 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Tom - do not worry, I do not know the saying anyway (LOL)

1:35am • #20
387,453 Points 23 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Liz- ou are one great optimist. I wish you stay this way.

1:36am • #21
148,551 Points 4 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Tchaka - I try to avoid pundit opinion as my sole source of information.  I have not read the bills in detail yet as the house bill was not released to the public in time for me to study it before the vote was called and the Senate bill is not yet passed.  I consider the process to be a shell game until the final bill comes out of conference and is ready to be voted on in the same version by both houses of Congress.

However, it is my opinion that we simply cannot afford the bill at this time and I am concerned that potential cost cutting measures have not been considered (other than cutting Medicare and Medicare Advantage programs).  

I value your intellect and judgment.  Can you point me to any government program which has been a successful example of efficiency and streamlining?  Or any entitlement program which has not been hilariously under estimated in terms of costs.  

I expect that I would agree with you that there are areas of the health care system which need reform.  But, in my opinion, this administration and the Congressional leadership are going in the wrong direction and the result will be a catastrophe that will negatively impact the vast majority of citizens who currently have private insurance and the seniors who are already in a government program.  

When President Clinton was impeached by the House I opposed the action.  I do not believe that such serious action should take place without bi-partisan support.  I apply the same standard to the drastic actions being taken by the Obama Administration and the Congressional leadership.  If anyone wants to craft a bi-partisan solution to these major problems, there is an opportunity.  The changes which are being put in place will polarize the nation and will result in exaggerated swings in political power in Washington.  More moderate approaches could be more lasting and effective.

 

 

7:26pm • #22
387,453 Points 23 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Wallace - "we have fostered the notion that the government must care for it's citizens.....these people just see "something for ME!"

Isn't it what is happening now as well, and on a bigger scale?

7:49pm • #23
387,453 Points 23 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Missy - I am afraid that we are eroding that very spirit of American People. It is a far cry from Socialism, and I have seen what can be done to people, who become like cockroaches with their own agenda. Just leave them the food crumbs

7:53pm • #24
387,453 Points 23 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Rob - it does not look that Alan Grayson gave himself time to read and think about it. I doubt it very much

7:56pm • #25
387,453 Points 23 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Mike - But why not compare Obama with Lenin. there is a lot of similarities, I think more than differences. It  is a different era, different cultures, but a very similar mindset.

And what makes them so similar is that both had a choice of direction: individual freedom and less government, or bigger government, which knows what people need.

8:02pm • #26
387,453 Points 23 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Israel - "they take bits and pieces and ignore the whole". I am afraid there is truth in this statement

8:05pm • #27
Localism Sponsor

Ted - Thank you for the kind words.  I will again state that I don't know nearly as much as I should on this subject......having prefaced with that, one area that excited me for technological as well as waste-cutting is the plan to get medical records and billing into online databases.  From a technology standpoint, a doctor anywhere in the country can pull up your information when treating you.  The lady I spoke with described PAs can wear headsets and get immediate notifications on patients as part of treatment (sorry, but I had so much info coming towards me I couldn't remember it all).  On the cost side, there's so much wasted by physicians in terms of billing and payments.  The majority still do everything by paper?????  Yes, in today's age.  Accuracy will increase, time and expense will decrease.  These are simple common-sense things to me.

Where it gets tougher is when she talked of a fundamental shift in health care and for fear of massacring the message, I will only say that the intent is to provide performance-based compensation.  This will better reward physicians who successfully treat patients.  I really don't have details other than the current system doesn't provide such incentive.  Perhaps I should have a follow-up chat to rehash it all....there was too much coming at me.  :-) 

11:10pm • #28
NOV
17

Tchaka, I know first hand of a company that has brought themselves to be 100% the technical model you speak of.  Yes, it has saved that company lots of money.  It also cost them lots of money to implement.  Make no mistake the ROI is certainly there.  It is not enough % of a savings though to even begin to cover the difference in what costs will be with any of the 4 current bills out there.

Think of it as getting gas at a really good price, but you still have your expensive car payment, insurance payment and upkeep on your vehicle to pay.

The fundamental shift you speak of works like this.  Statistics are kept for each physician about how much they cost/bill the government.  At the end of the year those physicians that have given more care than the government thinks they should will have their reimbusements reduced for the following year.  There are also items in the bill that reduce reimbursements to physicians who re-admit patients to the hospital for the same illness.

Let's take a person with cancer as an example.  In 2009 Doctor X admits a couple of cancer patients into the hospital for needed care.  In 2010 he re-admits those same patients.  He will then go on the list to have his reimbursements reduced.

Will this system save money?  Oh yeah.  Will it make sure we get the care we need to not suffer and give us our best chance to LIVE?  NO WAY!!!

People stuffing these toxic bills down our throats, all the while insisting they are good for us, are being PAID OFF in various ways.    These bills are insidious.  

You feel for the entrapment words, "better reward physicians who successfully treat patients". 

Successfully treating patients to them is REDUCING CARE! 

Georgia
9:07am • #29
184,419 Points

I am pretty sure that old TJ would not have voted for Obama.

9:21am • #30
Localism Sponsor

Ted - I realized I didn't address one other thing you mentioned: the need for a bipartisan solution.  I too am on board with that idea, however I believe that's a different era.  Congress was not as polarized then as they are now.  Infact, I believe that we the people, though polarized, are not as far apart as Congress votes.  I don't really believe our Congressman are that far divided either - but when it comes to voting, they sure are. 

3:08pm • #31
NOV
18

Jon, Not sure, but I think our government is more like professional wrestling today. It's all a show for our benefit (sic).

Ted, ditto.

Tchaka & Ted, The best place I've found to get information is Cspan... and yet that's pretty controlled as well. Nothing like watching a guy make an impassioned speech and then find out there are only 25 Congressmen in the room and some of them are playing solitare. I'm a graphics guy and did my best to see how this picture may have been photo-shopped... if it was, it was the by the best, because I can't find any seams or misplaced pixels.

congress in action

Rep. Barbara Lambert,  D-Milford and Rep. Jack F. Hennessy, D-Bridgeport, play solitaire Monday night as the House convened to vote on a  new budget. (AP)

The guy sitting in the row in front of these two...  he's on Facebook, and the guy behind Hennessy is checking out the baseball scores.

8:52am • #32

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