Don't Risk Being Banned From Craigslist

Thanks for the advice.  It is amazing though how Craigslist makes you specify if you are a broker.

Well, Craigslist making you specify if you are a broker is just Craigslist obeying the law, is it not, because you're required (here, anyway) by law to say up front if you're a broker advertising a party.  Or am I missing your meaning? 

If v-flyer is not to be used on craiglist, how is it that they've worked with craigslist to get their HTML coding to work with craigslist and made modifications to it at craigslists' request?  Color me confused! 

Interesting post. I've used Craig's list and had no problem, but then all I do is post the flyer. I don't think there's a place to link to my website. I'll have to check the terms. Thanks for the head's up.

I've just re-read the terms of service on Craigslist and I don't see anywhere where vflier would be a violation.  Could you be more specific and provide a link or a quote from their rules that supports your claim?

It seems that as long as you are not linking to your site, everything is fine.

Thank you

Thanks for the information.  I just started using postlets. I'll be sure to stop doing that.  I don't want to risk a lawsuit or getting banned. 

You can link from vflyer to your website (but don't have to) when you create your flyer.  I'm with Tricia, it seems contradictory to have vflyer provide the code for craigslist but then you may be violating craigslist's terms.  How about posting your Point2 listings to craigslist? This goes straight to your website.  Thanks for the information, definitely something to look into!

Both postlets and vflyer and a couple of others that I use, have all worked directly with Craig to make sure they are in compliance with the Craigslist rules.  There is nothing wrong with posting these flyers on craigslist.  I've even cooresponded with someone at Craigslist about this issue in the past.  As long as you don't abuse things like posting the same ad day after day, you're fine.  There have been times when they asked postlets and/or vflyer to change some of their coding and in the meantime, Craigslist did delete all those posts from their site, but that has not happened for months.  It is perfectly OK to post these flyers, especially when you'll notice when you create the flyers, there is specific coding just for Craigslist.  Don't worry, keep on posting!

Aubrey - I may be wrong (I hope not) but it seems like you are doing a Chicken Littler impersonation of "The Sky is Falling".  I'm as equally confused as the posters above me - How can Craigslist work with 3rd party vendors to creat code and then sue the users.

Granted, there is a lot of abuse on Craiglslist and those who abuse the system should be banned - but for the average Joe Realtor posting a listing ...come on, they have to have better things to do.

Now Have a Blessed Day,

John Occhi, Hemet CA REALTOR
Mission Grove Realty
Hemet CA Real Estate

Great input - this type of real world info is why Activerain is so helpfull!

Question: Has anyone had much success selling real estate via free online classifieds (i.e. craigslist)?  I hear it's great for rentals but I've never heard anyone having success buying or selling via these sites. 

 Thanks in advance! - Ben 

Ben, Yes, I've had success selling some listings on Craigslist.  And when people contact me on a listing and it doesn't fit their needs, it's a good way to pick up new buyers as well to show them other properties.

Thanks for your post. I will do my own research and let you know. Donna, I am with you. I have several dealing posted on Craigslist and close several all because the buyers and new listings view it first on craigslist.

thank you for the heads up.  I guess I should have actually read the EULA before posting all of my flyers there!

I have used craigs list and postlets before, but not much any more as it is not effective in my market,  Just did not see any leads coming out of it at all.  I had a virtual tour included with several of the postings, with the webpages it was on having Google analitics on it as well, and hardly any traffic coming off of craigs list.

Craigslist is great for getting attention.  While it may not always sell the house being advertised, as Donna says, it does bring in buyers.  Also, checking the activity on my website, the chief referrers, right up there together way ahead of the pack, and changing places ever so slightly periodically, are craigslist and AR.

My website activity jumps dramatically when I post to craigslist.

Silvia is correct.  You can (but you don't have to) have links in your postlets and Vflyers. I assume that most people will act the way I did and include the links, since that is how the ads are desied. All of us would want the links, so that we can get the traffic directly to our sites.

John and Tricia -

John, I assure you that I am not being Chicken Little-- I loved that book, as a kid, btw. 

I can tell you from speaking with the craigslist staff/volunteers on the help forums that this is all true-- but as John said, you have to be caught-- it's sort of like downloading illegal music: sure, MILLIONS of people do it, and not everyone gets caught, but do you really want to risk it? Do what you can to minimize the chances of being kicked off or having your site auto delete your ads, by the robots on Craigslist. 

Craigslist has a very small but dedicated staff and a large staff of vigilant volunteers.  Most of the time, it's going to be a competitor who catches you and turns you in.  That is what happened to us.

I actually have had my site flagged as a commercial link by another poster, who said that we were a company and violating use. Though I can't say for sure who it was, based on his email address, I think he's an agent in town. Since he "turned us in", any time we post a link to our site, our ad is auto deleted.  I'm in that minority that has been "caught", though I was unaware at the time that linking to a "commercial" site is prohibited by the user agreement, within the TOU. When writing onto the craigslist help forum was told that they were originally flagged because of the use of a third party posting service that linked the ad to our site, and that third party service had posted the link to my site.  I was told that this is a violation and that I probably wouldn't have been caught if I hadn't used the service. I wrote to Craigslist directly but never received any more direct answer.

As to how Vflyer and Postlets worked with Craigslist... I couldn't say for sure how that part worked.  But anyone can write code that works with craigslist . We have written our own code in the past, so that we could have a nicely displayed ad, without explicitly violating the TOU. 

I'm far from the only one who has had been "caught" violating a rule on Craigslist that I didn't know existed-- and I really like to spread the word, because it sucks.  And we were unaware that what we were doing (linking to our site, using third party posting service) was a problem.  We were a lot like you guys. The postlets and Vflyer are designed with links to your site.

I'm just trying to spread the word because I wish I had known, myself. 

Donna/Frank/Tricia - Thanks I am going to be posting our listing in Craigs using Postlets - I wish some one from craigs could go on record - given the variety of opinion expressed here the issue is clearly disputable.

I've been able to use HTML code with an anchor text link to my website for buyers to get more detailed information on a property posting and to search other listings in the hopes of driving buyers to my site.  I prefer not using the flyers so I can put in the link and I do specify I'm an agent.  I'm not sure if it helps with SEO but I have been able to see visits to my site through my analytics. 

Julie - We were also caught when we did that, with a different account.  Again, I think it is because the competitor turned us in.

Ah, I think I see where the confusion comes in.  When posting a vflyer, I'm not using a third party posting service to post the flyers.  They get to post it to everywhere else; I copy the HTML and do the actual posting to craigslist of the flyer.  So, I'm thinking that the explanation for the reason that craigslist actually works with vflyer to get the HTML coding for putting vflyers on craigslist right (which makes nonsense of the idea that they don't want vflyers on there) is that what they don't want is the automated posting that third party posting services use, not the flyers themselves. 

And, as Donna says, she's corresponded directly with Craigslist about this in the past and gotten the okay on it.  I'd take that over volunteers on the forums any day of the week, having seen what some of them have to say that I KNOW isn't true but is their own personal preference.

Jeff- here's the quote, which was shown to me when I went to the forums: "

If you are a Posting Agent that uses the Service in violation of the
TOU, in addition to any liquidated damages under clause (d), you agree to
pay craigslist one hundred dollars ($100) for each and every Item of Conent
posted in violation of the TOU.  A Posting Agent will also be deemed an agent 
of the party engaging the Posting Agent to access the Service (the
"Principal"), and the Principal (by engaging the Posting Agent in
violation of the TOU) agrees to pay craigslist an additional one hundred
dollars ($100) for each Item of Conent posted by the Posting Agent on 
behalf of the principal in violation of the TOU.

They said that the last half (..."and the principal...agrees to pay an additional one hundred dollars...") was refering to us. 

Tricia--

But are you using it with links to your website?  If so, that would violate the TOU, either way.

I'm not trying to be alarmist, and I admit that before getting banned, if I had known (which I didn't), I might have done it anyways.  But, now that our site has been banned, I wish I never would have done it.

Another reason I stopped using Craigslist.

Thanks for the 411

Good Info!!  I didn't realize the rules were so strict...

Craigslist and Postlets seem to be working just fine on my end so I am bit confused. They (as mentioned above) have regulations, you have to say you are a real estate professional in the ad. But then my State requires I do that anyway.

There is a vFlyer blog here, maybe somebody (smarter than me) can cross post this there, somebody from vFlyer can respond.

Thanks.

I use craigslist and vflyer. Vflyer has worked it out with craigslist.

I have someone in my area, spamming one of my listings every few days. They keep using my photos and saying the house is for rent for 975. It is for rent for 2000.00 and for sale for 399,900. I had my assistants husband respond to the add and it said the email was not valid. Any suggestions ?

I thought it was a realtor trying to pick up buyers...................but evidentially not. Not sure what to do.

Interesting discussion. We've used Craig's List - are links to the property web site considered commercial as well?

This is interesting.  Is it also illegal to post a link to the specific property page of your website?  Is it also illegal to post a link even if you are not using Postlets or Vflyer?  I had no idea about this!

Here's the link to the Terms of Use.

This quote is in the middle of Paragraph 3 Content:

Furthermore, the craigslist site and Content available through the Service may contain links to other websites, which are completely independent of craigslist. craigslist makes no representation or warranty as to the accuracy, completeness or authenticity of the information contained in any such site. Your linking to any other webites is at your own risk.

If they tell people that there are other links, and you are on your own if you click, how can they fine posters for having links?  This doesn't make sense.

Sherry

Thanks for all the info.  I have tried Craiglist and it soes bring in Buyers but that is all I have seen.

I just read the terms of service again and again, and see no prohibition of linking to third parties. All I see is that they warn you that they have no responsibility for what you find or what happens there. Am not sure what their volunteers are saying, but the terms of service should be what the users follow. If someone can find the exact text that says you cannot put in third party links, I would love to see it. One thing someone before mentioned was that they thought a competitor flagged them. It does take quite a few flags before you get your ad cancelled. But did make me wonder if all the agents were remembering to give their office's name and clearly identify themselves as agents. In Florida, and I suspect in many other states, it is a serious violation of state regulations to place a "blind ad". However, I see them all the time in Craig's list. Also see a lot of ad's for services that require a license when the posters clearly state they are not licensed. I have used Craigs List for a long time and never had a problem with links to my webpage, slideshow, etc. As I read the TOU I see no prohibitions against this. Just the warning to consumers that CL has no control over them and they go to a site at their own risk. That is not the same as saying we cannot have the links in the first place. I think someone is reading this wrong or is getting some bad info from the CL forums which are often unreliable.

Very interesting discussion here. I've been using vFlyer and Cragislist for a very short time and so far have had no problems with either. My vFlyers do have links to the listing-specific page of my website for more pictures and a link to the virtual tour for the listing. I wasn't aware of any of these supposed infractions so I'll be parked here to read more, but I really hope to see someone from vFlyer and/or Craigslist chime in on this, since we're seeing so much conflicting info here.

Aubrey - Crap!!

Not a wise thing to do, but I have not read the Terms of use...Thanks for the heads up

Why would Postlets have the link to place on Craigslist without having to type in the url?  All you are doing with Postlets is making the listing look nice and professional.  In NY we are required to post as a real estate agent.  Because I post myself, there is no link unless I place it there myself....

Have you reached someone from Postlets, since this seems to be a huge conflict.... 

 Aubrey~ I'm not sure how your ban happened, however I'm doubting you were banned because you used vflyer or Postlets to post a listing. As a virtual assistant who uses both of these products there are a million other potential ways you could have gotten banned.

Now, there are a lot of other third party services who are offering to place nice HTML ads, like title agents who are trying to solicit new business from agents. Is that what you mean? They place in a third party link to their their own websites along with the agents, and that is against the rules. Only the agent or broker representing the listing can place the ad. There is also a big crackdown going on for words or phrases in property descriptions and so forth, that could bring on a law suit. EX: I've seen so many times on the MLS in agents remarks about a property, "bring over your picky buyers, they will love this house." You'll find yourself banned and deleted for comments like those.

Vflyer and Postlets are simply online programs that create the HTML for you. You will not get banned for using these tools to create an ad. If that were so, we all would have been banned a long time ago!

Thanks for the info

So.......I guess the jury is still out on this one?  CL is a great resource but seems to be more difficult to use every day.

I have yet to find anyway to make Craig's list work for my promotion. I do know another inspector who is getting it to work, but he is driving farther than I would want to do.

I for one did not know that was in the terms and conditions of Craig's List.  I have only used it a couple of times and both times by the time I hit submit on the listing there are so many that come in and bury it that I can't find my way back to it.  It could be because I never really took the time to see how the sight works.  I think this is the 2nd or 3rd post I have seen on AR about this same topic.  If its happening to multiple people, there must be something to it.

Well, I'm parking for more info.  I have not used Craigslist before and was getting ready to in the next couple of days. 

Not sure that Postlets and Vflyer are that big of a problem.  I think both services originally had some issues with links back to their commercial sites on all their ads, but it looks like both have now fixed the issue.  I have used Postlets for months and have never had a problem. I just did a search on the Tampa Bay area Craigslist and found 681 ads created with Postlets and 181 created with Vflyer.  In the San Francisco area there are 2,000 ads created with Postlets and 123 with Vflyer.  In New York there are 2,476 with Postlets and 408 with vflyer.  In Seatle there are 207 with Postlets and 42 with Vflyer.  If it were a problem there would not be all these ads.  Here is a link to a CL discussion forum regarding Postlets:

http://forums.craigslist.org/?SQ=postlets&act=RSR&searchAID=&forumID=9

You'll notice that most of the problems were reported in January of '06. 

So, relax and keep creating your cool ads.

Aubrey, thanks for the warning...I've used Craigslist before using vflyer, I guess I need to remember that's a no-no.  I don't want to be banned from something that is  FREE

I am so confused at this point that I will only say that Postlets and vflyers should been sending a message like this out, not an individual that got banned for a situation that just might be slightly different from we are doing and that is simplyl posting to postlets and vflyer and following their direction.

Please someone let us know what these 2 listing companies have to say about this banning situation.  Until them, I ain't gonna change a thing.  Too much work without knowing and understand where the errors are being made.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHH! This gives me a headache. Can anyone on the Active Rain front or the Postlets or VFlyer give us something concrete. I have been using postlets for a while now and nothing has ever been said? HELP!!

I have had Postlet ads on Craigslist deleted by the staff.  When asked why, they sent me to the TOU.  I stopped using and just post a normal ad... the traffice still keeps going to my site, just wish they were a more serious buyer.

I honestly don't see what the difference is if I create my own CL listing or use the code from Postlets.  The same information gets posted.  Price, SQ. Ft., photos, my brokerage info . . . weird that their TOU would specify this . .  I guess they just want to make it harder for us to post.  C'est la vie . .  Postlets were cool while they lasted.  Thanks for the heads up.

Heads up or Heads down. Do you post or not post. Are you right or wrong? Interesting indeed! A lot of the high and mighty Bloggers love to flag other bloggers.

Nice update Aubrey, however innocent or not the result is the same.....your gone from Craig's List, many of the other sites of this nature have the same rules....they must use the same lawyer!  great post.

To everyone- Wow.  I am relatively new to Active Rain and didn't expect so much feedback; it will take me a little while to get back to all the comments individually.

Gary - You hit the nail on the head: I didn't know before, and now, I want to inform others.

Carole - They worked perfectly for me-- until I was removed. So.

I really don't understand what is or isn't allowed anymore. 

I really don't understand why what Laura Monroe posted above is being prohibited on Craigslist.

"bring over your picky buyers, they will love this house."

With so many illogical rules, I don't think I'll bother any more.  All this is making me too paranoid.  Rules need to be clear and understandable to all or else it's creates anarchy and fear.  Who needs that?

Kevin -I actually asked Craigslist staff that and they DID respond from their email.  They said that a user can post a link to his blog or other "non commercial" site but that the only section that you are allowed to post commercial links within is the services section (not housing).

If they wanted to remove links entirely, they could do so by simply not allowing the code to work (which is what we do on our site; it's very easy).  But they specifically do not allow commercial links, as outlined in their Terms of Use.

Jeff - Originally I was flagged by the community (and by community: it seems it was one person logging on with different IP addresses.  We are in a small town; it only takes 4 to 5 flags before your ad goes down).

AFTER that happened, he emailed Craigslist and said that we were a commercial site that had links coming to us.  He left an anonymous message on our answering machine, saying he was going to turn us in.

Bob-  Thanks for posting and confirming.  I had the same reaction from Craigslist staff (ie: email from the actual staff at help@craigslist.org) and THAT was the first time I had read the Terms Of Use, too.

Craig and Amber Smith - This happened to us in late Feb of this year, and we were received an email, like Bob has confirmed, that forwarded us to the TOU.  

To everyone-- whether or not you use Postlets or Vflyer with a link to your commercial site, or you write a text ad and have to consider whether to link or not to link- I understand your desire to do both.  I really do.

I also understand the desire of people to do illegal downloads.  It seems that the rules have been laid out, and we are all in violation.  I think that the best coarse of action is to take care that by whatever means, you stay under the radar.

So I'm tired just from reading all the comments-and no response from Craigslist or vflyer or postlets?  I'm definitely curious about what's going on, I had been posting to craigslist but the last two listings got deleted (i use vflyer) and no one will respond as to what's going on.

I have emailed Aaron at vflyer with this link to respond. I know for sure at one time that they had worked it out with craigslist.

Thanks, Missy.  I would love to hear the definitive answer on this one.  I'm suspecting that I know what the problem is, and that it's not something that precludes the use of vflyer, at least, on craigslist (don't know about postlets just because I haven't used them), but I'd love to hear from someone who actually knows. 

By the way, all of you who've been posting on there and never read the terms of service - you do realize that you have to click that you have read and agree to them before you can post your ad?  Were you just breezing by that?  Maybe that explains all the people who post copyrighted material on AR even though they are stopped from posting until they click that the blog they're about to post contains no copyrighted material? 

Aubrey, it's important to follow the rules and I do hope that the powers that be from Vflyer and Craigslist will entertain us with their presence and constructive wisdom. Thanks Missy for giving Aaron a heads-up.

I'm going to add a link to this on my blog.  People didn't believe me!  :)

Thanks for the tip. I have just begun using Craig's List. Has Craig's List really worked for agents? I would like to know how many agents have found this a good way to get new leads in their market?

Hmmmm....great post. Thanks for the information. I haven't used those on there though, YAY!

Wow. We just all of a sudden had our postlets stripped off of craig's list. But from reading some of the comments here, it seems that some people think it's okay to use postlets on craig's list. So what does one do?

Craigslist is such an amazing free service, it would be horrible to be banned for not following simple procedure.  thanks for the post

Hello,

 This is  from Aaron Sperling, CEO of vFlyer. We have had several discussions with Craig and Jim of Craigslist. Six months ago, they asked us to make a few changes to the vFlyer product to make it compliant with Craigslist Terms of Service. We quickly made the requested changes. Thus, the usage of vFlyer is not in violiation. Now, it is possible for you to add content to the flyer that is in violation to the terms of service. It is possible for links back to your website or other commercial services to violate the terms of service. This is a gray issue.  I hope this clarifies the issue.

Thanks,

Aaron Sperling 

Postlets was banned by Craigslist for a period of time last year due to some conflicts, they worked it out, and all is peachy-keen.

So long as you follow the rules of not having any direct links to external web sites, including virtual tours, you should be OK. Each state's real estate commission has their own laws; in PA, the agent must display his/her name, broker's name, and broker's phone. Also, the other posteres get pretty cranky if you list more than one or two properties at a time and will do what they can to flag you. Also, you are not permitted to post the same listing more than once in 3 days.

Actually, Postlets will RSS your listing on the web if I understand it correctly, you just have to make sure your listing is current with them.

Of the 30 or so listings that I posted last year, I received a few phone calls and emails requesting showing and/or information. I found them to be mainly "lookie-loos", and investors. The one or two times (dummy me) that I did schedule a showing with my Seller for me to show the property I got stood up. Point being you really need to screen the calls and/or emails - at least that's what I've found.

Don't write off Craigslist though. It's free and it does provide value-added. Just use caution.

Thank you, Aaron!  I knew that the vflyer that goes on craigslist was slightly different from the one that goes elsewhere, and assumed that was because, as I understood it, you had made the changes to be in compliance with craigslist's requirements, at their request.  See, I DO read the information you post on the site to keep us updated! ;-)

So, those of us who use vflyer on craigslist using the HTML coding provided and don't monkey with it, as long as we follow the laws of our respective states as it pertains to advertising (which we should be familiar with and doing anyway), should be good to go and this is all a tempest in a teapot? 

Good to know from the horse's mouth.

(And what the heck is a grumichama?)

Aaron,

Thanks for writing in.  When using Vflyer as designed, it includes (or at least it did when I used it) a link to our real estate websites (each of us, here on Active Rain), and the link is a violation of the terms of use of craigslist. 

I was told that the reason the person noticed my ad was because it looked "professional"-- and therefore, because the ad looked professional, they assumed that I must be a professional and that the link included must be a commercial link.  When my links were in standard ads, I was never "noticed" to be a company.

What are companies like mine supposed to do, when they have had their site banned from craigslist, after using your service?  (to be clear, our account isn't banned, it's just that our site has been officially deemed commercial, which means that any ad that links to our site is automatically removed by Craigslist bots). I work for a relatively small company, not a REIT or some national company, but arguing this with Craigslist got me nowhere.

Maybe you, as the CEO of Vflyer, can campaign with Craig for all of us here.  From my understanding, after the email from Craigslist, any of us on here who link to our own sites using your service are going to be deemed commercial. Questioning Craigslist staff directly had them simply say that as designed, the Vflyer ads are a violation of the terms of use, and though I agree with you that it may be a "gray area", they don't give us the opportunity to defend our ads.  They just delete them, automatically.

To be clear: I love your service.  I want to keep using it.  That's why I (as a little guy) need someone like you to stand up for the service, and help us get back on craigslist.

Younger buyers use craigslist.

When I post listings on sites like Craig's List I prefer to drive them to my own website, where the listings are also posted, so that I can track the interest in my listings.

Aubrey,

 THanks for starting this very useful discussion.