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Just about the time when everyone was on the same page with the old FICO scoring system, Fair Isaac's Corp. is making some needed changes in the the way the formulas will be calculated. A glimpse of the new model will be available in Sept 2007. This change will only affect one reporting agency in 2007 and the others will implement it in 2008. Fair Isaacs says the new system is not that much different. The major change in the new system is in the way it looks at those that receive credit points who are authorized  users on someone else's credit card.

People with little credit history or with poor credit will likely see their scores change significantly when they close this loophole.  It will illuminate on the scores of millions of authorized users and their scores will be affected, either up or down as the system is implemented. 

This change will mostly effect  the  younger adults that are trying to establish credit by attaching themselves to their parents credit cards. They ride the coat tails of their established parents credit to be able to circumvent the time required to establish for themselves.  Married women who use the family credit cards, but have little credit on their own will also be affected. 

Fair Isaac is closing this loophole because the lending industry has complained about abuses and said that the loophole was distorting the borrowers' true credit risk. 

As a suggestion for those who become authorized users to help build their credit, they might consider switching to a joint account. That would allow the joint member to continue reaping the benefits of the primary cardholder's strong credit history. However it must be understood that doing so also  poses some risks for the primary holder of the credit card.  If the authorized user abuses the card it will affect the primary card holder credit as well.  The primary cardholder can expect to see a change in their respective credit score.   

As I was researching the available information for this post, it occurred to me that there is really no clear way for one to gather the information with any assurance that you have a handle on how their specific credit score was composed. Perhaps the new scoring system will take this into account and help create a more understandable way of how the score was composed.

MyFICO.com does give general guidelines on how the score is determined. Let me correct that, how your 3 scores are determined. Most people assume they have one FICO score when in fact there are 3. Each of the reporting agencies determines their own score based on what they have in their reports for the borrower seeking credit. So depending which one of the 3 reporting agencies (Experian,Equifax,and Trans-Union) individual score is used, will vary. Perhaps not by large numbers but they will each have a different score. 

On the site MyFICO.com these are the general guidelines of the composition of the score. 

35% of the score is determined by Payment History

30 % on Utilization ( by what percentage of your available credit are you using )

15% by your established Credit History

10% of the score based on Inquires

10% on your Mix of Credit ( installment credit, credit cards, mortgage, etc.) 

When a lender then quotes you your FICO Score, they are usually quoting your average score by adding up all three and taking the average.

If you were buying car for instance, the dealership may only use one credit reporting service. Your score might be very different than if you were applying for a loan to purchase property. The Mortgage Brokers will most always need to factor in as much information as possible for the underwriters of the loan to consider when determining loan approval. 

In adjusting the FICO scoring formula, Fair Isaccs who created and owns the formula, says that adjusting this formula is needed to protect the continued reliability and predictive power of the FICO Scores. Dr. Mark Green , the CEO of Fair Isaccs, said about the upcoming formula change, " We will do whatever it takes to protect the reliability and accuracy of FICO credit scores for lenders, and to ensure lenders can continue to use FICO scores with confidence when making their most important customer decisions". He added " We will continue working with lenders regulators and others in the credit reporting industry to end deceptive practices that misrepresent consumer credit histories for profit".

The new system will take some getting used to but in the longer run it may create a more reliable and accountable system. In the shorter run, a lot of people's scores will be changed and that may create some confusion and concerns for the borrowers.

The exact details of the new system will always be safeguarded by Fair Isaacs Corporation prevent competitors and critics from cracking their trusted system.

 

 

 

 

 

 
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106 Comments on Out With The Old FICO Scoring System and In the With The New

JUL
02
2007
419,437 Points 71 Featured Posts Outside Blog Called Shot Master
You're on the ball William, this is worthy of a bookmark.  Your last sentence says it all....nicely done!
2:13pm • #1
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Thanks Jason,

This post took me more time than any 3 or 4 other posts. I had such a hard time of editing all the information I gathered as to what is useful and what is a poor read. With each post, I try to be concerned with giving my clients ( who are now reading my posts), enough information to educate without boring them into tears, as much of what I write probably does.

One new client sent me an e-mail and said by the time I get finished teaching him what all he should know, was already signing on right now as "a client for life". He feels like his is totally empowered. That of course made me feel good. I received an e-mail today from an upcoming client that says he really enjoys my posts. That really pleases me as well.

Many Thanks Jason for always being there for support.

2:23pm • #2
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What wonderful information.  I'll refer buyers to this post.  The market is so bad that about the only persons seriously inquiring about buying real estate are persons looking for "lease purchase", "rent/option", and other things that to me simply say "credit problems".

Thanks for the time.  Lots of good info here.

 

 

2:30pm • #3
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Thanks Lenn, I appreciate your comments and for book marking the post. I have book marked many posts for just that reason,The information is good and I like to have them for reference. many Thanks again for enhancing the post.
3:30pm • #4
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William - this post has some great informaton in it.  Thanks for taking the time to put it in a format that makes sense to most people.  I had heard about these changes, but had not seen anything in writing that spells it out the way you have here.

Thanks again for writing this post!
Ann

4:20pm • #5
Hit Router
It can't be worse then the old system.  Of course be careful what you say.
4:38pm • #6
Good information.  You've provided some much needed insight into the new system.
4:43pm • #7
482,745 Points 1 Featured Post Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

Nice post, Wiliam.  Up until a few months ago I noticed that several  mortgage people on this site were bragging about ways you could artificially inflate a persons score to enable them to secure financing !  I posted my opinion ( thought it was dishonest ) and my post was omitted !!

Now that the mortgage industry woes continue to mount and many of these practises are coming to light I wonder where all those experts are ? 

 

4:50pm • #8
277,828 Points 45 Featured Posts Outside Blog
Thanks for the heads up!  Glad they are introducing it in September so we have time to learn how it may impact us before the next selling season.
4:52pm • #9
Hit Router

While I welcome the change on some levels due to dishonest practices (just as Bill commented on, I totally agree that is nothing more than a level of mortgage fraud), it is also a step back on the social issue of women who stay at home to raise their kids and keep house.

But I guess that should be discussed on another forum...  ;-)

5:18pm • #10
9 Featured Posts
This type of information is always important to pass along. Since credit scoring
5:23pm • #11
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Dear Ann,Thank you so much for the nice compliment. There are many dynamics coming into play at the same time in the upcoming changes. Fair Isaacs won't divulge all of them but did share the part I included. I suspect the other changes will also be good for the betterment of the quality and reliability of the scores. I am not so sure lenders will feel that way, but eventually everything will adjust. Some of the abuses will certainly be curtailed and those that take the best care of their credit and rankings will end up be even more pleased. Many Thanks again. As I get more more information , I will want to update the post.

William

5:25pm • #12
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Dear Marcus, Thank you for your comments. I think the FICO scoring even though maybe not perfect, was a giant leap from some of the old arbitrary ways credit ratings were determined. Ii hope that the new better and more comprehensive point system will serve the industry well.
5:27pm • #13
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Cameron, Thanks for your comments. I am afraid that that the information in my post is just a teaser, though that is all that is available. You can't blame them for wanting to keep the most of the new scoring formulas under wraps. Competitors to their system would love to be able too beat them with procedures that arrive earlier. Like all things in life, there are so many cop cats out there there they are keeping the biggest pasts of it out of the press until it it released in Sept.
5:31pm • #14
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Bill, Thanks so much for your thoughts . Those same people you are referring are still out there. They are being quiet as they determine their next steps, I suppose.

There is going to be some interesting changes even in the licensing guidelines. See my up coming post in the next day or so. Still researching this but it sounds like some good stuff ahead. I think the consumers will like it at least but I know the committed to excellence Mortgage Brokers ( most of them) will also. Funny about change. The best embrace it and the least professional usually complain, at least until they find some system to beat it, lol

5:36pm • #15
128,998 Points 13 Featured Posts Outside Blog

I guess I don't see how putting a teenager on your credit card is a level of mortgage fraud. I was put on as an authorized user on my dad's credit card when I was 17, right after my parents divorce. It became my responsibility to buy groceries and get necessities as my dad was working to support us. I wasn't off buying clothes and "taking advantage" of my dad to get good credit. I don't see it as an abuse to put a kids name on a credit card to help them build good credit.

It's ridiculous to not teach our children good spending habits and responsibility with credit cards at an early age. In stead we send them off to college where a lot of students get into debt trouble from credit card companies preying on them, thus effecting their credit scores once they leave college because we as a society didn't teach them any better.

Now their being punished. I was taught early on how credit can effect your ability to buy a car, a house, etc, and because of that I now have an average FICO score of 866. Sounds like this is just another knee jerk reaction to the mortgage fraud crisis in this country where lending institutions are trying to blame Fair Isaac for the lenders shady underwriting. Trust me,it has nothing to do with people's credit scores....it was all about the money.

5:43pm • #16
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Hi ARDELL Thanks for your comments. I feel honored that the post was chosen to be featured. The Sept release will be only though one of the reporting agencies. I suspect that might give a chance for any last minute tweaks. I think this is a good thing to be happening. In the long run it will build consumer confidence again in the system and I honestly think things will be improving sooner than expected. Better get ready for extended selling this year, at least if my predictions are right. The bond market flexed itself a little today and I think you will see more of it in the coming months. You may not have to wait for the next selling selling season, this one  might last a longer than you thought! Yeah!
5:44pm • #17
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Jennifer Walker-Darby,Thank you for your great comments and enhancing this post. There is an easy fix and hopefully women that have never set up their own credit history will. I am sure this was directed to to them, they were more caught in the authorized user part of the change, mostly by the abusers. We should as REALTORS help where we can to get the word out to the Professional Homemakers that in the careers , it would serve them well to become co-owners of the family credit ratings. This would also be good for them to do, if for no other reason than their security. The abusers messed it up and now the system has to be changed. Hopefully and I do believe it will be.
5:49pm • #18
103,353 Points
Thank you for the info. It is nice to read a post that is so informative and adds value to the community.
5:56pm • #19
198,204 Points
Good information to share with our clients.  Day in and day out, I hear so much misinformation from my prospective clients that it is a wonder anyone knows what is true and what is not.  Most of the information thye have is hearsay from friends, neighbors and co-workers.  The more accurate information we can provide, the better.
5:58pm • #20
829,149 Points 156 Featured Posts Outside Blog Hit Router Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

Hi Jennifer Kirby- I loved your comments but did I miss something? Mortgage Fraud? In my post?  But your argument would be good if it were in there :)l

The rest of what you say does makes perfect sense. Since kids get cell phones so early, maybe it is time that they get a credit rating of sorts to. Perhapps someopne will devise a system that children that have not reached the adult age where they are actually responsibe under contract law, that a variation can be set up as an addendum to the parents credit rating ( voluntary under one or both parents) thus giving the kids a credit rating defined by the parents actually being responsible untill they turn legal age.) Just a thought?

 

6:02pm • #21
128,653 Points 2 Featured Posts Outside Blog
William - Thanks for simplifying this info. Guess we will wait and see how the new formula affects certain segments of the poulation. It appears it could be detrimental to some.
6:07pm • #22
597,151 Points 45 Featured Posts Outside Blog

William - you wrote a great post, and it was certainly worth the extra time it took to compose it! I've rated it a 5 and bookmarked it and will be sharing it with clients.

I think I figured out the difference between an authorized user and a joint account holder, but you might want to write another blog about that.

We look forward to getting updates from you as more information becomes available.

Thanks! 

6:11pm • #23
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This is a great update outlining what most certainly will affect many first time home buyers.  I will check out more details to make sure I understand the new scoring as you outlined.  Great post.
6:11pm • #24
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Dear Grant. Thank you so much for the compliment, but there are so many on Active Rain that regularly add such good information. I feel honored when a post is granted featured status, for I do want to add to the rich dialogue of information and editorial. ActiveRain to me is the best site for information I have ever found. I have learned so many things and the members have been so helpful in that learning experience and are of such value to me. The posts from my collegues  have enriched my life and my career.  I don't even pretend to hold a candle to many of these with such great writing skills. I try and I am making progress. Thank you again for enhancing this post  with your fine comments. I will always try to measure up. If I can continue to learn, maybe even help set the bar. But for today, I just feel proud to be a part of this great site and am so excited to share it.
6:15pm • #25
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Dear Phillip, As a REALTOR, I feel honored that someone of your esteem would find something I wrote as being significant for your clients. We all know how mis-informaton often precedes us with our clients. Mortgage knowledge in underwriting and the scoring system are somewhat of a minor speciality considering I do my best works in the residential listing category. I do counsel my Buyers though and I have wonderful help in the mortgage arena from some trusted and experienced Mortgage Brokers.  Thank you so much for lifting my day with your gracious and valued comments.
6:22pm • #26

Thanks for posting the information about how the score is tallied.  I never knew the percentages.  It sure would help if this was more freely disseminated to consumers, wouldn't it?

6:24pm • #27
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Paula - Thank YOU!  Than k you for your support and helping me through the maze of the things we talked about. Thank you for being there when i need to chat and discuss who to proceed with my blogging career. Jim did a great job and i am getting so much acceptance from our local community on the the site. I will always be glad to have been able to share the progess with you.

Sincerely,

William, Author of  The Real Estate Text Book

6:27pm • #28
829,149 Points 156 Featured Posts Outside Blog Hit Router Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

Dear Sharon, Thank you for those really fantastic comments and for rating the post so high. Coming from you, the consumate professional, I think it is even a greater honor than be featured. You are a real treasure for the content you have shared and added here on ActiveRain and it speaks to why you are a real leader on this site. Many Thank Yous!

William,

6:33pm • #29
597,151 Points 45 Featured Posts Outside Blog
William - WOW! Now I'm the one to feel honored and humbled. Thank YOU.
6:46pm • #30
389,496 Points 17 Featured Posts Outside Blog
Wow William! What a job!!! I had read about this......so glad you put them into perspective for us. Thanks
7:02pm • #31
274,828 Points 28 Featured Posts Outside Blog
Thanks for this well-written post, it's definitely a good one for consumers to read and digest.  On another note, do you know when the 4th credit bureau is supposed to surface?  Will that be in conjunction with these other changes?
7:14pm • #32
130,775 Points Outside Blog
This blog has been bookmarked and I will be sending my buyers to this page for more information. Thank you for the post.
7:26pm • #33
128,998 Points 13 Featured Posts Outside Blog

William - I believe I read in one of the comments something to the affect this was a type of mortgage fraud as lenders go off the Fico score, and are "false" results because of a person being "authorized" and given a higher credit score. This inturn leads lenders to believe they have better credit than they should as they are "riding the coattails of someone else's credit.

Oh, and putting your three year old on your credit card might be considered abusing the system. But teenagers who are actually being given a responsibility shouldn't be punished because they are put on the parents credit card. I don't know what kind of honor system could be implemented, but if might be something for Fair Isaac to consider.

7:31pm • #34
848,632 Points 153 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Hit Router Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master
Being a realtor I had not heard this, so thanks for the heads up. I am bookmarking to send to clients and a few lenders I know.
7:41pm • #35
277,828 Points 45 Featured Posts Outside Blog

William,

I think interest rates are slowing things down a bit. 

7:53pm • #36
Outside Blog

William, it is very timely post. While most of real estate professionals do realize it, many people do not – how immense impact on our lives is excrete by one man – Fair Isaac. His patented FICO score defines our credit worthiness and became a bible to lending industry and beyond. Our credit worthiness defines our ability to obtain credit and its conditions (rates, amortization, etc.).

Another point - many people don't realize the secrecy around the algorithm.  There are a lot of look-alike algorithms, but there is only one Fair Isaac algorithm and no-one really knows it. myFICO algorithm, also owned by Fair Isaac, is a simplified version of the main Fair Isaac algorithm.  It is a brilliant business idea as clients use myFICO to manage their credit (and pay for it), but because these scores are not exact, lenders still need to pull "the real score" to check our credit worthiness. So, myFICO doesn’t cannibalize existing revenue stream for the Fair Isaac Company.  As you probably know- pulling of a credit report effects downward your score (of course with exception for multiple mortgage inquiries within 15 to 30 days), but my FICO - does not. So, myFICO is the only vendor of a "credit score management" service that will not lower client's score. Just think about the power and influence of one man - Fair Isaac - on millions of lives! And it is growing!

7:55pm • #37
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Can't blame them for doing it.  Thanks for bringing it to our attention.
8:04pm • #38
3 Featured Posts

Excellent post & clearly written.  Thanks.

8:44pm • #39

Thanks for your informative post.  I didn't know the percentages or how some of the upcoming changes will impact us and have bookmarked it.  This is the type information that makes Activerain some powerful.  I look forward to your future posts.

 

8:45pm • #40
294,021 Points 11 Featured Posts Outside Blog Attended Rain Camp

William, I enjoyed this one, very well done and very well explained it :) thanks !

 

9:18pm • #41
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Hello Grant - Thank you for you comments. By all means stay atop this , it is likely to have an effect on a lot of people when all the changes are brought on.
9:45pm • #42
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Diane, How are You? Always appreciate your comments. I think consumers can go to www.FreeCreditReport.com and get the combination score themselves. I haven't tried it but If I were doing a loan today, I would want to be way more in charge. The more I learn , that with good information, better choices can and are made. I hope consumers will always look to us for providing the resources to empower them.  I helped a Buyer a couple years that not one REALTOR would work with. If I ever write their story, I think people will be rather amazed. It is sort of personal to them but I will ask if they would mind. it has a fabulous ending, for me and them.
9:55pm • #43
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Hello my friend Teri, how delighted I was to the post featured. I see I didn't get any extra points, maybe they are stopping that. Honored non the less. I was telling Jason how hard this was to edit and to trim to a size that was readable. There is a lot of information out and a lot of opinions as well. I wrote the piece with a more positive slant but the big boys are writing the story with quite a different twist, as you can imagine. I see the glass as half full and not at all ashamed to put the best light on this subject. Hardly anyone gets it right and in all fairness to Fair Isaac's Corp., the scoring is so much better today than the old alternative. It might have been more subjective then but it was riddled with so more misinformation.
10:02pm • #44
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Hi Leigh, thanks for your feedback. Many thanks for the nice compliment. It was a so nice of you to use the digest to describe this piece. I cut it half and was still worried that it might to long and no one would read it. Thankfully, they are reading it, yeah! Many thanks again,

William Author of The Real Estate Text Book

10:06pm • #45
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Susan Trombley, Thank you for Book Marking this piece and adding in your comments. Hopefully your clients will be assisted by the information. I hope to do an add on piece when the rest of the story needs to be told, :)
10:08pm • #46
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Dear Missy,Thank you booking the post and for your nice comments. I would hope that your mortgage brokers have read something about this already. The consumers may not have though. Many thanks for adding Value to my post  with the bookmark.
10:12pm • #47
829,149 Points 156 Featured Posts Outside Blog Hit Router Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

Hello Authur. I hope who ever reads this post also read that I recommend everyone to read your posts. They are great , you write really well and know what you are talking about. When it comes to MLS issues , one has said it better. OK, now about your comments to me. They are of course all valid. Fair Isaac is very powerful but it is not so much one man now as a powerful ( albeit a very excellent ) corporation. Someone was destined to do this, if not him, someone else. It replaced a chaotic assortment of criteria that was bizarre at best and horrific at the worst. It also stream lined the credit process. As long as they provide the right formulas, I am all for them keeping it secret and preventing it from being abused.

Thank you for commenting on the post and I know you are headed for great things with your posts. They are GREAT!

10:25pm • #48
135,445 Points Outside Blog
This one slipped by me.  I have not heard anything about the revision of how the scores were determined.  Good information to know and be able to share with clients.  Excellent post and very well written.
10:27pm • #49
242,512 Points 30 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog
Great Post i always wondered how the score were comprised... thank you for the information... good stuff to pass along to buyers when going over their credit reports.
10:31pm • #50
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Hello DesireeThanks your for your comments and know that I appreciate it. I think Buyers would be enhanced with the general information and it will make us all look good letting them know that we know! :) I am all for helping all of us look better in the eyes of the consumer. The more we know, the more we can help them be stronger and of course our relationships are improved as well. Thank You again.
10:51pm • #51
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Hello Tim - Thank for weighing in on the post. I certainly don't blame them. When people have abused the system and it fails, they like to point the fingers away from them to the system that failed. I agree they should enhance it and make it excellent again, as it was before the loop holes were seized upon. Thanks for commenting and making the post more useful.

 

10:54pm • #52
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Hello Kimberly Grant - Thank you for your most appreciated comments and compliments. I am still a work in process but I am learning. If only I could write better headlines, :) Many Thanks again, I look for your comments again hopefully soon. You made me feel great reading them!
10:57pm • #53
829,149 Points 156 Featured Posts Outside Blog Hit Router Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

Dear Sue, You are very Welcome and Thank You for the nice compliment.

Sincerely,
William      Author of the The Real Estate Text Book

10:59pm • #54
829,149 Points 156 Featured Posts Outside Blog Hit Router Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master
Hello Nancy Siau, Thank you all your very kind words. The information we all get for free from this incredible social network is totally awesome. I have leaned so much as well. You know, I think it was better than any of the Top Producers panels we see. The folks here on Active Rain, actually care about you. They want to you learn and share everything they know. There are lots of other sites but I would bet, this site is way better. I am so confident of that , If  I didn't get a another post and read everything available on this site, I would be a certified genius. So much really powerful things but even more importantly, so many caring people that want to share it and teach you whatever you or want to know. They should charge us for all this. What a gift!
11:05pm • #55
829,149 Points 156 Featured Posts Outside Blog Hit Router Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

Hi Ray Saenz, Thank you for your very nice comments. Much appreciated and aren't we all so lucky to be members of ActiveRain. I appreciate that you found it interesting and commented. Many Tsalsifyhanks

11:08pm • #56
Outside Blog

William - thank you for very kind words. It feels especially good today after I could fully appreciate how well you write.

You are absolutely right that it is a power of Fair Isaac Company today, not just a single person.  However, I am impressed with the mind behind the Corporation who was able to impact through his invention lives of so many people.

11:24pm • #57
829,149 Points 156 Featured Posts Outside Blog Hit Router Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

Hi Authur, Thanks again. I only hope to write as well as you! Thank you though, it feels good to be appreciated.

Sincerely,
William

Authur, See my great new blogging site createdby Jim Conin of the www.RealEstateTomato.comIt is new by only a couple weeks but it is getting lots of attention. A very well known San Diego attorney gave me the inspiration. He said I was  the first TextBook REALTOR he ever met. He hired me to represent his family in a purchase. Naturally I was honored as he has set numerous case LAW in California. When it was time to have my own blogging site, it seemed like a good fit.

11:34pm • #58
JUL
03
2007

Hello All,

This change is long awaited in the mortgage industry.  There are a few flaws that I hope they fix.

1.  Big score differences.

2.  Bleed Over from another person.

3.  More efficient way of removing errors.

These are hurdles that I see on an ongoing basis.  A score difference of 100 points, such as a 520, 630, and 625 can kill a loan file quick.  Another persons bleed-over such as a BK (bankruptcy) or NOD (Notice of Default) is another problem.  Even when you get verification of the errors, it is not an easy thing to get fixed.  This is especially true if you are in contract for a purchase and the BK is not yours.

Here is something you may find interesting, when you pull your credit such as the free one you are entitled to every year, it will not show you what we see on a Tri-Merge (A Tri-Merge report is all three reporting agencies reports merged together).  The reason for this is that when you get a credit report, it is search specific to you.  Your name, social security number, address.  When a lender pulls a credit file it is a loose search looking for fraud such as a BK or NOD that you have not disclosed.

When you are working with someone, sometimes the best thing for them is to explain the system, and show them how to clear mistakes, and go over the Tri-Merge report with them and help them understand it better.  It is not always what you want, but it is sometimes the best thing for your client.  The change in loan scenario could be drastic such as a better loan rate and cleaner file.  If this client is already under contract to purchase, then it is a lot more tricky. 

As to ways of making a temporary fix, if you do not want to buy that loan, I would not suggest it.  Loan fraud is a serious thing and many states are making it a felony. 

I hope this has been helpful, not boring.

12:32am • #59
829,149 Points 156 Featured Posts Outside Blog Hit Router Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master
ShawnYour information is so wonderful and adds a great bit of information that really ads to the post. With your permission, I am going to amend my post and include your comments authored by you as part of the post. It will greatly enhance it. I will send you an e-mail and ask for that permission. Many Thanks for the great addition.
12:44am • #60
615,230 Points Localism Sponsor Outside Blog
Good post. We all have to keep up on these issues. Have a nice 4th.
12:48am • #61
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Dear Bob and Carolin Thank you so much for your comments  and a Very Happy and safe 4th to both of you!

Most Sincerely,
William

1:16am • #63
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Dear Marlene,Check out the updated post. It is even better now with some of the pitfalls as described in Shawn Nicols' comments to me. I added with his permission his comments inside the post itself.  Many Thanks as Always for you support.

PS, what's with all these funny and strange words for submission, lol?

1:19am • #64
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William - this is a grat article. Thanks for sharing this. I had done a little reading on this topic but your post really helped to clarify things. I see from terrific advantages for some folks as a result of this new system. Thanks, also, for sharing Shawn's comments.

Jeff

12:56pm • #65
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Good Morning Jeff,

Thanks for the nice comments. I was just speaking with Brian about the plans for Del Mar. Hope to see you there. It will be fun to meet! Many thanks for adding to this post. I am still trying to learn to type better, the battle goes on,lol. Have a great rest of the day.

1:29pm • #66
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the scoring changes will catch some off guard. and will cost a lot of people a lot of money.

but the piggybacking was getting out of hand and needed to be dealt with

1:32pm • #67
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Hey Tom, Thanks for adding your thoughts on this. You are most certainly right about the consequences for some people though, and correct that most times that things in life have be corrected because of abuse, there is always the chance they may be corrected to far in extreme. You comments are right on!

Many Thanks for the comments and enhancing this post,
William

1:49pm • #68

I think anything that makes the system more accurate is great. Great post with some great info. I have heard of people piggybacking on others credit and the problem that lenders are having with it because it is definetly misleading.

8:21pm • #69
Awesome Post!
11:56pm • #70
JUL
04
2007
1 Featured Post
Thanks for the heads up!  I'll be sure to look out for the changes.  Happy 4th of July!
1:39am • #71
Outside Blog

Very well written and to the point.  Thank-you for posting this important information.

 Brian

11:18am • #72
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Hello Adrian, Thank you for your comments and adding to the postt. I am pleased it was a meaningful post. Many Thanks again.

William

1:42pm • #73
829,149 Points 156 Featured Posts Outside Blog Hit Router Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master
Shekeria,many thanks for the wonderful comment and compliment. Awesome is a great word and I sure appreciate that you give it to me. Many Thanks
1:44pm • #74
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Hello Brian, thank you for commenting on the post.  And the complement. Really appreciate.  It.  Thank you

William

2:10pm • #75
JUL
05
2007

Hello All,

Just checking in.  Here is another tidbit that you as professionals should know.  Be very careful giving advice to people borrowing in a sale transaction.  If in example, you tell them do not buy a car it can affect your score, or advice on credit score improvement, legally that can constitute loan fraud.  I know this sounds weird, but it is the truth.

Shawn Nichols

11:52am • #76
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Thank You Cheryl for enhancing the post with your insight. I am sure others will appreciate the heads up.
2:02pm • #77
829,149 Points 156 Featured Posts Outside Blog Hit Router Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master
Hello Shawn, Excellent advise. Thanks you for adding in your feedback and a reminder of what we should not do. Many Thanks
2:05pm • #78
Outside Blog

Shawn,

I can see where someone may constitute that as fraud, but then you're crossing the line of what is fraud and what is simple advice and would most likely not hold up in court.  Shawn, do you have any court cases or examples of where someone was prosecuted for fraud by giving advice such as what you stated?

Thanks,  Brian

2:10pm • #79
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Hi Brian, I suspect that some of us might be best served not to advise clients on what we are not really well versed in as Shawn was suggesting. We probably aren't well versed in that sort of counseling so we best leave it to others. It might be to extreme to suggest that giving ones opinion would constitute loan fraud but today, nothing would surprise me and we best just avoid that discussion. Wouldn't you agree? Financial guidance as well as legal or accounting is not our bailiwick so as for me, I'll stick to real estate information. That I do know, lol, well sort of. After 19 + years, I am still learning and in 20 more, I might, just might know a lot more, lol. Hope springs eternal on that one.
4:47pm • #80
Outside Blog

Hi William,

       I agree with most everything, but I still feel that advising someone on not getting a car until their loan closes does not constitue fraud.  If you are giving them 401k advice, then that's a different story.

Brian

 

5:23pm • #81

Afternoon All,

As to case law, I am not sure.  I as a Realtor was not aware of this until I was studying for my brokers license.  I am always surprised at what you can learn and pass on.  This is right out of a text book on mortgage loan brokering.  I have worked in the loan and real estate field for a while and did not know of this. 

The reason is that as a loan broker you are influencing a file that does not fly on its own merit. 

As I am sure most of us have run into a file where when it was started it was OK, but when the lender or you re-pull credit to order DOCS, the score has dropped.  Sometimes as much as 75 points for just buying or co-signing on a car.  I usually at the start of a file tell my clients about things that have affected others, but not told them not to buy.  They get the message from others mistakes without me crossing any lines.

FICO scores can be influenced by many things, late payments, rolling 30s, new debt, multiple pulls on the borrower, are just a few.  I have even heard of people who tell their clients to just contest everything on the report and do a rapid re-score to show the temporary changes.  This is the kind of thing that could be construed as loan fraud.

As in all things ask more than one person and you will get more than one thought.  That is why I like Active Rain so much, it gives us all a chance to learn what others think.  I only mentioned the issue because in todays market it is better to be safe than sorry. 

Shawn Nichols

 

5:23pm • #82
Outside Blog

Shawn,

Right, so nothing to where someone would advise the client not to get a car loan, or for credit repair,  during a loan approval process? As in specific law?  I would feel you are doing that client a great service in telling them what the negative effects of purchasing that car will do to their credit, or to help and guide them to a reputable credit repair company. 

If a client is in a credit repair process with me I advise them to keep their revolving balances below 30%, pay everything on time, and not to apply for new credit, because they all effect the credit score.

Excellent Pie Chart for reference to what Williamstated in his BLOG

 

Thanks and I truly appreciate your posts,

Brian

 

 

6:07pm • #84
JUL
06
2007
Outside Blog

William, Brian and Shawn – thank you for a very interesting discussion. 

William – I certainly agree that definitely should not advice on things we don’t know about. But to serve our clients better, we either should learn enough to provide a basic advice (it might be critical to client's decision and well being), or (at least) direct client to someone with enough knowledge to advice them properly.

Brad, you are absolutely right - advice not to buy a car is something what clients should receive - if not from an agent, then for sure from a loan officer working on the transaction. 

Shawn, I understand the need to be cautious. Giving bad advice is much worse than not giving it at all. So, I agree with you, if agent does not have enough knowledge, he/she should not offer it.

We are often told that lack of knowledge is not an excuse. Most certainly, there is no excuse if client is not foreworn on what to do. Would you let your client to change a job shortly before a lender is going to call his/her employer to verify if he is working for two years with the company? Telling a client to wait until the loan is approved, is not fraudulent.  It is a common sense and extra value client can and should receive from an agent. 

4:11am • #85
Outside Blog

William, Brian and Shawn – thank you for a very interesting discussion. 

William – I certainly agree that definitely should not advice on things we don’t know about. But to serve our clients better, we either should learn enough to provide a basic advice (it might be critical to client's decision and well being), or (at least) direct client to someone with enough knowledge to advice them properly.

Brad, you are absolutely right - advice not to buy a car is something what clients should receive - if not from an agent, then for sure from a loan officer working on the transaction. 

Shawn, I understand the need to be cautious. Giving bad advice is much worse than not giving it at all. So, I agree with you, if agent does not have enough knowledge, he/she should not offer it.

We are often told that lack of knowledge is not an excuse. Most certainly, there is no excuse if client is not foreworn on what to do. Would you let your client to change a job shortly before a lender is going to call his/her employer to verify if he is working for two years with the company? Telling a client to wait until the loan is approved, is not fraudulent.  It is a common sense and extra value client can and should receive from an agent. 

4:11am • #86

Hello All,

Artur we all want our clients to get their loans.  If I had a client tell me they were going to change jobs, I would let them know that if they did their loan is dead in the water.  I would not tell them to wait until the loan funded and then change.  That has to be their decision.  As I posted before, any undue influence that makes a file fly that could not on its own merit, is questionable.  A sub-prime lender expects these things.  As long as they are working when they call, it is all they want to know.  Common sense is a rare thing with most people.  You are correct that it should be a no brainer, but it happens. 

If you tell them to fund and then quit, you have withheld information on the file and knowingly submitted a fraudulent loan.  Can it be proved? NO.  Will the lender demand that you buy back the loan?  Probably not.  But, was it fraud? Yes. 

This is in theory.  Every client has circumstances and you just need to play it by ear.  Am I a person who looks for fraud in a file?  Yes.  I do not want to ever have to buy back a loan or end up in court.  This is just my opinion.

Shawn Nichols

2:24pm • #87
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Thanks Shawnfor adding into the discussion. I am staying out of this discussion however. Since I am not a lawyer, I never try and speculate on such things. But appreciate that you feel so strongly.
3:37pm • #88
Outside Blog

It is unfortunate that we live in a time where we all have to watch out how we word certain statements to protect ourselves from further liability.  ie, "If I were you ..."  " I can't tell you not to, but ..."

If the client actually quit the job and lied about it, then I can see it constituting fraud ... but them waiting until closing of a deal to meet certain guidelines isn't fraud ... it's excellent time management and planning. 

What we need to do is make sure our clients are properly informed of their situation and the guidelines that will bind them.  All we can do is advise them on what is most likely the best proper plan for them.  After that we have to rely on them making up their own mind with the comfort of our counsel.

This is an almost impossible subject to close the matter on because it deals with "case by case" situations.  I'm glad we all agree on one thought, "Keep it legal .. help your client."

Cheers and enjoy your weekend!

Brian

 

3:59pm • #89
Outside Blog
Shawn, you definitely have a good point. Once I re-read my entry I realized that it could be misinterpretted. I think that Brian summarized it really well. You have to deal with a situarion case by case and there are two guiding elements, do the best you can for your client, bur make sure it is legally and ethically correct. 
4:19pm • #90
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Brian and Artur, I am glad yoou both have come to an agreement. :)
6:10pm • #91

Loan Fraud is a federal felony. Mortgage professionals are licensed to qualify borrowers for specific programs and transactions in accordance with federal lending laws. The laws are also very clear that the borrower has the right to privacy in their dealings with their advisors. Our disclosure package includes 15 pages they must sign before I can present them to a lender. I am frankly surprised to hear realtors speaking about buyer's credit issues! I do appreciate your concerns since every seller wants to know the transaction will be completed. It is the mortgage professional's job to be sure (and there are many indicators) that borrowers are being truthful with us so that we put them into the right program...which they can afford. If they lie to us or we misrepresent them--we are liable!! I believe strongly in the responsibility to also protect the consumer from themselves...so I write blogs on the subject --if you are interested in my take....feel free! www.netcredit.blogspot.com

 

Susan Templeton, Loannetter
7:58pm • #92
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Hello Susan,

The comments were are referring to was not in my original blog article. I amended my blog and included with in it comments another person made ( sort of a guest). seems he writes things that are way more controversial than I. My post was about the FICO scoring system changing.

Another member of Actiive Rain suggested that I might want to include Shawn's remarks so I did. Shawn Harris, another blogger on ActiiveRain is the author from  at the notation I made of the inclusion of his remarks. Shawn gave permission to have his remarks included.

Thank you for commenting and I am sure Shawn will comment on your response, as I think what you are commenting on are his remarks exclusively.

Sincerely,
William

8:40pm • #93
JUL
07
2007

Hello All,

Hello William, I am sorry for the controversy.  I only really wanted to pass on information not sidetrack the main topic of the FICO system.  I enjoyed the original post and the topic was top notch.  I will try to keep with the program.

Thanks,

Shawn Nichols

12:25pm • #94
JUL
08
2007
Outside Blog

William,  based on discussion you triggered I feel that we need to discuss if agents should discuss FICO score with their clients. I very interested in your opinion.

Is it OK for real estate agents to coach their clients on how to improve FICO score 

 

4:50am • #95
147,472 Points 6 Featured Posts Outside Blog

I"m still of the opinion that credit scoring should be made illegal. 

First it's discriminatory.   You mentioned the "mix" of credit.  This means that if you have accounts from a finance company you're more likely to get dinged on your credit score.  Who uses finance companies?  Not rich white people.  Poorer  people and people of color are the ones that turn to finance companies to finance purchases that richer people put on charge cards or pay cash for.

Second, it's unfair.  If you are going to be judged by a set of criteria, especially in something as important as your ability to borrower, shouldn't you have a right to know what that set of criteria is?

Third, it's inaccurate!  It's pretty much accepted fact that up to about 70% of credit reports contain inaccurate information.  That means that up to about 70% of credit scores are inaccurate.

If you'd like to know more about "Why Credit Scoring Should Be Illegal" click on the link and view my post.

 

Bob Mitchell

ValueList Real Estate Services, Inc. 

6:09am • #96
829,149 Points 156 Featured Posts Outside Blog Hit Router Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

Artur, Thanks for commenting and adding in your post link and the additional resource articles.Excellent post BTW.

Your post is superb and well illustrated from one perspective. The example you used was from an individual agent that knew about and understood the principles of credit repair. You asked me a question. Did I think real estate agents should discuss credit scores with their clients ? As we get more and more into the core of the service business and try to justify our existence , it might not be a bad idea to be providing agents that have an interest ,an opportunity to learn the subject and surrounding guidelines and be able to give this guidance to clients that want it. There are several other professions that might think we are usurping their territory and we best be able to give substantive proof of our expertise if it ever called out.

The real rub for financial planners, tax counseling, credit counseling companies it the type of license that might be required and if we are exceeding our real estate licensing limits when we counsel on credit repair. It is a difficult question to answer that is going to need others to decide.

It would seem to me that this should be at least within the context of services that we ( REALTORS) might be able to expand to but it will require some proof of expertise or certification that we are accomplished in this subject.

Other professions might see this in a different vain and we will likely need more training either way. Real Estate Counseling comes to mind. Real Estate Counseling is a unique profession in and of itself and yet we REALTORS on a regular basis, describe part of our service as counseling the client ( with no particular expertise, licensing or certification as a counselor). Maybe it is time to redefine this real estate profession and what is within it's domain and what is not. It is getting pretty muddy as these situations are occurring more and more often, almost commonplace.

To go back to answering your question, I don't know the answer. In a limited way, yes, I think we can and are helpful by assisting the Buyer in ways that may be beneficial them from our knowledge base. It may come down to a standard of practice. Should we know these things and if yes, prove the educational background. If No, then treading into these arenas will increase the liability and exposure should something go wrong with the advise or the understanding by the client of what was advised.

There is another way around your question. Likely until the question takes a greater significance in the profession, those who could decide, won't. Lawyers on the other  hand, might also smell blood and go on the offensive. Those cases have in the past set case law and in many ways redefined what an agent is responsible for knowing and also what areas are considered not within their licensing domain legal,tax,construction,financial planning,etc. In each case, a specific license is involved. 

This might be a great thread for a whole new post on what the limits should or should not be in the real estate license. Brokers owners would probably like to keep it as simple and clear as possible. They may feel there is no real money in expanding the services as long as we remain a contingency industry. If we shifted to the legal profession model ( billable time, contingency fees in some cases, flat arranged fees in other situations) for sure we would likely be taking on more and more types of the possible services.

 

12:49pm • #97
Outside Blog

 

William, thank you very much for your comments. Would it be OK to include them in my post, as you did it with Shawn's comments? I think that they would greatly enhance it.

Real Estate Counseling is what very experience agents and brokers already do. I believe that more and more agents will do it in the future, as our profession will be evolving and adapting to the influx of the on-line services.

Our profession is evolving; however, the real estate business model has not changed much over many years. Hundreds of entrepreneurs are trying to find a better one.  Once (and if) a better model takes a hold the licensing laws might have to change.

 

3:46pm • #98
304,861 Points 17 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master
Very informative article, thanks so much for taking the time.  I have bookmarked.
4:06pm • #99
829,149 Points 156 Featured Posts Outside Blog Hit Router Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

Hi Artur, I already used my comments as post. I never did that before and wouldn't do it again. Too confusing,lol

4:34pm • #100
829,149 Points 156 Featured Posts Outside Blog Hit Router Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master
Hi Miriam, Thanks for your comments and for book marking the article. I am so glad that something I had added here is useful for you. It is will be interesting to see what the scoring system actually looks like and how it will be used. Watch for it in late September.
4:51pm • #101
Outside Blog

Good post.  I am preparing a few other posts. As we seem to share interest as well as some opinion I was thinking that we could try a joint post. Please let me know if you might be interested to discuss it and I check with Caleb how we could do it technically. I am curious how occasional joint post would work. Possibly we could open another way of expressing ourselves.

5:52pm • #102
829,149 Points 156 Featured Posts Outside Blog Hit Router Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

Hi Artur, Like a joint collaboration?  It works in other wordpress driven blogs but can only have one author. As least as a collabrative effort. Not sure how two people do one post on ActiveRain. They would require a post to show as one member or another. Duplicating a post under two names would likely p--- them off big time, lol 

An interesting tought!
William

6:47pm • #103
Outside Blog
William, just a thought at the moment. I will explore the idea with Caleb.
8:20pm • #104
AUG
06
2008
Localism Sponsor

This was very well written.  I have previously read about the changes, but didn't go in depth on the topic.  You have made it clear what the change will be.  Thank you.

12:30am • #105
829,149 Points 156 Featured Posts Outside Blog Hit Router Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

Hi Paul, Thank You and I appreciate you locating this.

1:30am • #106

This blog does not allow anonymous comments

 
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San Diego Real Estate Voice authored by William Johnson GRI CRS e-Pro CDPE

San Diego, CA

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