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Is That A Root Beer Float In The Attic?

By
Home Inspector with Jay Markanich Real Estate Inspections, LLC 3380-000723

This post will be something most of you have likely not seen before.  It concerns foam insulation in an attic.  It looks a bit like the top of a roof beer float, doesn't it!  This foam is an icynene product.  Icynene is an open celled foam, sprayed onto sheathing and/or supports, and completely seals an area.  It is purported to be healthier than fiberglass, more energy efficient and certainly provides a quiet sound barrier.

 

 

 

 

 

This is one of two attic furnaces. 

Above it you see the roof trusses supporting one of the angled sides of the hip roof above. 

Those truss rafters are buried in the foam, and the foam goes right up to the sheathing.  There is no ventilation.  But I am told that since icynene is open celled the wood can breath.  I don't know about that.

Often attic furnaces are up on a shelf created for their support.  This hip roof is short enough that the foam closes off the ceiling completely above this upper level, and the furnaces are located on the sides.  There is no attic access.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This photo represents one of my beefs with this product.

I am thinking years out.  Sooner or later there is going to be a roof leak.  Icynene actually allows water to flow through it, although it takes a very erratic and undetermined course.  A roof leak can manifest in the drywall somewhere in this room, but the leak could be many feet away.   Someone will have to find it from the outside.  That will not be easy.  Then, I understand, it is very difficult to remove sheathing that is glued on the underside by 24" of foam.  Future repairs will be difficult at best.  The roofer will have to be very careful not to break the foam when the sheathing is removed.  If it is broken, or cracked moisture will get in and the system breaks down.  The result is rot.

Another problem I have with it is that it expands as it cures.  This happens very quickly.  These HVAC ducts looked pretty crushed to me.  If/when I do a final inspection on this house, determining if there is proper airflow through the ducts will be an important part of the inspection.  But, if the airflow has been severely restricted by the foam you see here, what do you do?

This is one of those products without much history.  We will see...

 

 

 

The last photo is of one of the squared bump outs on the fourth level.  Rather than having a large attic, the hip roof affords the opportunity to add another level.  I like this a lot.  It is very efficient, and utilizes the space, which this buyer intends to use for an office.

The roof line is just above that window, with a gutter outside. And much of the ceiling on that level is flat.

There are canister lights throughout, many of which are buried as you see this one here.  Good luck servicing that!  Or exchanging it one day when it breaks.  I hope the heat dissipates.

That is one of the things people will experience when the time comes.

My recommendation:  If you should elect to have this icynene foam installed in your new home, either in the walls or ceiling, pick someone who is certified and has experience.  This particular builder is the first in Virginia to use it.  The subcontractor has been doing insulation and foam for 13 years.  They are highly certified and obviously good at what they do.  Improperly installed, or installed by an amateur who knows not what he is doing, this stuff makes for BIG, BIG problems.  There is little room for error.  So be smart!

 

 

Posted by

Jay Markanich Real Estate Inspections, LLC  

Based in Bristow, serving all of Northern Virginia.

Office (703) 330-6388   Cell (703) 585-7560

www.jaymarinspect.com


Comments(93)

Tina Merritt
Nest Realty - Blacksburg, VA
Virginia Real Estate

With this cold, early winter, I am so glad our builder used a good insulation!  They may not build them like they used to, but I'm glad they don't insulate them like they used to!

Jan 02, 2010 01:57 AM
Jay Markanich
Jay Markanich Real Estate Inspections, LLC - Bristow, VA
Home Inspector - servicing all Northern Virginia

Good to hear Tina.  Some things about new construction are in fact better!

Jan 02, 2010 02:00 AM
Christa Ross
RE/MAX Select Realty - REALTOR and Green Homes Specialist - Pittsburgh, PA
Helping you buy and sell Pittsburgh's Best Homes

I am not sure about burying the furnace like the first picture, I have seen attic furnaces with rooms built around them and then insulated on the outside, that seems like a better option.

As for the duct work, one of the great benefits of this product is that the duct work needs to be air sealed with mastic and then this product adds to that. Without sealed duct work tons of warm air is lost into the walls and never makes it into the rooms and will drive up utility bills.

Can lights are another place that historically have been big sources of cold air leaks into a house. Encasing them in foam helps prevent that, but your point is well taken, changing them in the future could be difficult.

I have a home I represent that was built with SIPs - they are solid foam with particle board on each side. They form both the structure and the insulation. They are very energy efficient but you have to wire the electrical in the building process. It's a great product but adding outlets or lights in the future won't be as easy in a traditional home. Of course since the utility bills are about 25% of a traditional house it's probably worth a bit more effort to wire a new outlet.

All in all this is a great product that has lots of benefits but I agree that finding a qualified subcontractor is very important.

Jan 02, 2010 02:11 AM
Christa Ross
RE/MAX Select Realty - REALTOR and Green Homes Specialist - Pittsburgh, PA
Helping you buy and sell Pittsburgh's Best Homes

I just need to add one more point of clarification to some of the comments on "tight" houses.

"Tight" houses are ones that are built to not leak energy and heat. There is a certain standard to the amount of air exchanges a home needs per hour, it's a very scientific amount that a qualified energy auditor can speak to. The fact is that most homes leak WAY more than is necessary.

The goal of good construction is to allow the proper amount of healthy air into the house through the use of mechanical ventilation - like a fan or heat exchanger. In this way you get good clean outdoor air into the home.

In older homes, the ventilation comes from cracks and leaks in the home. In many cases it is even "filtered" right thought that pink fiberglass insulation - yuck! Those kind of homes "breath" wonderfully, just feel the drafts in the winter and look at those high utility bills.

The healthiest homes are those that are built "tight", sealed well and mechanically balanced to allow in the correct amount of controlled fresh air. The best way to achieve this is through consultation with a home energy auditor or by working with a builder that understands energy efficient building techniques.

Lastly, Icynene foam is a water-based polyurethane formula that contains no formaldehyde, CFCs or HCFCs. There is also a soy-based spray foam if you want something that is more natural but that product is more expensive and not as accepted.

Jan 02, 2010 02:27 AM
Jay Markanich
Jay Markanich Real Estate Inspections, LLC - Bristow, VA
Home Inspector - servicing all Northern Virginia

All good points Christa.  Proper ventilation is already a part of new-home construction.  A good balance is more difficult to achieve in older homes, so that can become an issue.  If radon is a problem, improper ventilation becomes really relevant.  Certainly canister lights are big energy wasters, as any thermal camera would demonstrate, but not all are intended to be encased like these.  I could not tell if these were alright to encase or not.  That sticker is in the box or on the outside of the canister where the installer can see it.  Thanks for stopping by!

Jan 02, 2010 02:51 AM
Rene Fabre
ARFCO Media - Renton, WA
Practicing Philosophical Eclectic of the Arts

I had a home awhile back, you know the kind. A real handyman's home. Problem was, nothing was ever done standard. I wanted to do some rewiring to create a few dedicated circuits and move some plumbing around. That's when I learned we had all the walls full of icynene... It was a nicely insulated home and warm in the winter... but a pain to run wire and pipe...

Jan 02, 2010 03:34 AM
Bernice Dubon
RE/MAX First 403-607-9117 - Calgary, AB
Calgary Alberta Realtor

Ok Jay, You had me at Rootbeer Float! :)  Thanks for posting this along with your photos & thoughts about the product.  The thing that I notice is that normally insulation would be sitting on the attic floor with open air space above the insulation.  What effect to you think this type of insulation could have with, since it is located above the attic airspace?  How about Condensation? What if there's snow on the roof... will it change the way snow melts & freezes on the roof, causing snow to build up over the winter, creating stress on the roof?

Jan 02, 2010 04:54 AM
Bernice Dubon
RE/MAX First 403-607-9117 - Calgary, AB
Calgary Alberta Realtor

Ok, I realize Snow might not be a problem where you are ;)

Jan 02, 2010 05:01 AM
James Quarello
JRV Home Inspection Services, LLC - Wallingford, CT
Connecticut Home Inspector

Jay, You said to Charlie Icyene has more R value than fiberglass. Actually it doesn't. They are about the same. Not that it matters much. It's just misinformation they do nothing to dispell.

I have heard of two cases where this stuff has caused roof rot. As you know Icyene is applied to the roof deck and the attic is not vented. This code change was made possible by those that manufacture and apply this stuff. I'm not on board with unvented attics. Do you know why they apply it to the roof deck? It's much easier and the mechanicals don't get encased in this stuff. Is it better to insulate this way? I guess we will have to wait and see.

Jan 02, 2010 07:57 AM
Jay Markanich
Jay Markanich Real Estate Inspections, LLC - Bristow, VA
Home Inspector - servicing all Northern Virginia

René - See, I can do an accent too!  This interests me - how old was the house?  And I can see your point, over and over...

Bernice - I have many questions regarding the stuff!  Condensation, in the long run, is just one of them.  As to snow here, this is my deck just last week...

James - I was told by the installer that icynene is about 6.8 R-value per inch.  Fiberglass is about 3.  I just googled it and saw that Icynene rates everything from 3 to 6.9.  Man, what to think?  I am like you, and apparently every home inspector I have heard from except one.  That is Reuben Salzman, who has polyfoam in his attic.  I have more questions than answers and frankly foresee problems down the line.  But what about encasing things like ducts, lights, plumbing, wiring, etc??  Seems short sighted to me.  Repairs to anything will require special training, tools, etc.  And a knowledge of how this stuff reacts to cuts and trying to get to things.  I just don't know.  So far, I am not a fan.

Jan 02, 2010 08:25 AM
1~Judi Barrett
Integrity Real Estate Services 116 SE AVE N, Idabel, OK 74745 - Idabel, OK
BS Ed, Integrity Real Estate Services -IDABEL OK

My, what a post and what a response.

Thank you for writing about this. 

I want all of my clients to read this.

Jan 02, 2010 11:43 AM
Jay Markanich
Jay Markanich Real Estate Inspections, LLC - Bristow, VA
Home Inspector - servicing all Northern Virginia

You are welcome Judi.  I have been doing lots of research since and have contacted some interesting people.  I may have a follow-up post as well.

Jan 02, 2010 11:50 AM
Linda Lohman
Fonville Morisey Realty - Cary, NC
Former Teacher/Broker

That's curious stuff.  I don't like hearing the water issues.  I'll keep my eyes open to see if it comes to our market in NC.

Jan 02, 2010 12:53 PM
Darrel Cook CRS, GRI, Broker
Darrel Cook Real Estate Service - Jonesboro, AR

This type of insulation requires the return air for the hvac to get ten percent of the return air from outside,,,of the house, to help with air quailty,,,check with a good hvac guy and see if they know this

Jan 02, 2010 01:01 PM
Cindy Bryant
Redesign Etc. Home Staging - Houston, TX
"Houston Home Staging Pros"

Does it help with sound?  We will be building a home in the future, looks like a product we would be interested in.

Jan 02, 2010 03:36 PM
Jay Markanich
Jay Markanich Real Estate Inspections, LLC - Bristow, VA
Home Inspector - servicing all Northern Virginia

Linda - I have checked around with energy experts and they say that water and moisture are big problems.  I understand that if the wood is dry when this is installed then it can breath.  If not, rot will be encased.

Darrel - the balance of exchanged air is crucial in these homes as so much is sealed.  I have not yet heard a percentage, like 10 or 15, but I am still researching.  Moisture build up is the big reason for proper indoor/outdoor balance.

Cindy - apparently sound reduction is a big benefit.  And necessarily - the people are living inside a styrofoam cooler, essentially.

Jan 02, 2010 10:27 PM
Monique Combs
Royal Shell Real Estate - Bonita Springs, FL
Royal Shell Real Estate - Monique Combs

Jay ~ Terrific post! I knew about icynene, but definitely not much. Thanks for sharing your great knowledge. I will re-blog this to help make the public aware and hopefully Google will love it too! Happy New Year!

Jan 06, 2010 02:59 PM
Jay Markanich
Jay Markanich Real Estate Inspections, LLC - Bristow, VA
Home Inspector - servicing all Northern Virginia

Thanks Monique.  I don't know if it is catching on near you, but not so much around here.  Either way, we need to know.

Jan 06, 2010 08:57 PM
Mike Gillingham
Eastern Iowa Inspection Services LLC - Walker, IA

Nice Write up.

I prefer the kiss principal personally (keep it simple stupid). I have built residential and commercial construction for 20 years and have seen many things. I like your comment about living inside a Styrofoam cooler. LOL. I remember when we started building homes tighter and tighter. The HVAC guys would install a make up air vent to the cold air return. Not too long afterward we are using air exchangers to keep from suffocating. What's next?

Keep up the good work!

Feb 09, 2010 03:04 AM
Jay Markanich
Jay Markanich Real Estate Inspections, LLC - Bristow, VA
Home Inspector - servicing all Northern Virginia

Thanks Mike for the compliment!

Feb 09, 2010 06:59 AM