sleazy salesman

How LendingTree Misleads the Loan Consumer

When it comes to lenders, those of us that broker loans have a distinct advantage over banks that are forced to use in-house lending options.

As a broker, I can set my own prices for the most part (meaning interest rate and closing costs).  In theory, I could give a client a wholesale deal with an interest rate and closing costs that would be impossible to beat.  I can also shop around for the best rates each and every different day.  For example, today I am locking my loans with a certain bank in Ohio; tomorrow, I may find something better elsewhere.

If I worked for a major bank, I would simply have to offer the consumer my bank's current going rate and closing costs.  My hands would be tied for the most part.

So when LendingTree came on the scene, I thought it was the greatest thing in the world...for me.

I thought that LendingTree would make me rich!  I would sign up and then be the lowest-priced lender on the LendingTree network-- every single day.  I wouldn't make any huge commissions, but I could do volume.  A couple hundred loans per month, maybe!  I could be a multi-millionaire by the end of the year!

I envisioned hiring a ton of office staff to take care of all of the loans that we would be stealing from the big banks.  At night, I would dream about it. 

Of course, I soon found all of this was just too good to be true. 

You see, why would any other lender sign up for LendingTree if I was going to be able to steal all of their business?  After all, a lender has to pay a small fortune to become part of the LendingTree network.  If any particular lender (bank or broker) resolved to be the lowest priced, every single day, LendingTree would lose all of the advertising revenue from the other banks.  And of course, LendingTree has to take care of their customers:  Meaning Lenders, of course. 

Oh, I'm sorry!  Did you think that the mortgage consumer was LendingTree's customers?  Certainly not.  It's a "free" service for consumers and it's the mortgage companies that butter the LendingTree bread.  Regardless of what their commercials imply, LendingTree does not care about you, the loan shopper.

Why should banks pay LendingTree for "leads", when Arizona Wholesale Mortgage would steal every lead, every day?  That would just be silly.  LendingTree would go out of business with only one monkey wrench thrown into the mix (me).

But that's not the way LendingTree works.  LendingTree isn't about giving people the best deal; LendingTree is about making the consumer think they are getting the best deal, while taking good care of their lenders that pay them.  And taking care of every lender equally, as I will explain.

Here's how it works:

1.  LendingTree boasts having a ton of lenders and they claim that you will get the best rate because "lenders compete for your business".  This is actually a half-truth.

You can see how many lenders actually work with LendingTree right here:  https://secure.lendingtree.com/stm3/Lenders/scorecard.asp

I didn't count them, but it looks like there are a few hundred retail lenders listed on the above page.  They aren't all licensed in every single state, but the last time I checked (I think it was early last year), there were about 30 lenders doing LendingTree business in Arizona.  I would guess that there are more than that now.

2.  When the consumer visits the site, he or she is told that they will get "up to 4" quotes from the LendingTree lenders.

Hmmmm...  Something doesn't compute here.  They have 30 (or probably more by now) lenders in Arizona, but you can only get quotes from "up to four"???  What kind of loan shopping is that?

3.  The consumer thinks, and it's easy to understand why, that they are getting the four best offers on the LendingTree network on that particular day.  But that isn't the case. 

There are certain lenders that would always be on the bottom when it comes to competing with other mortgage brokers.  That is, there are certain lenders who would always have the worst rates to offer. Of course, even lousy lenders get taken care of by the LendingTree.  After all, they paid...and they paid a lot.

In reality, the lenders are put into a rotation and given a chance to offer the best deal-- not to every single consumer-- but only when their numbers come up in the rotation. 

4.  So, the unknowing consumer gets 4 quotes, but they could be from the 4 worst-priced lenders on the LendingTree network, just by the "luck of the draw."confused about lending tree

Let's say there are 28 lenders in your state and one-- and only one-- can actually be the lowest.  If you are getting the maximum four quotes, that means you only have a one-in-seven chance of actually pulling the best-priced offer.  (28 lenders / 4 picks = a 1-in-7 chance.)

If there are 56 lenders in your state, you have a 1-in-14 chance of getting the best deal with LendingTree.  When you sign up, who knows where the best-rate company is buried in the rotation?  Will you actually get matched up with the best that day?  There is some possiblity that you might.  You know...like 1-in-14.

The home buyer / or refinancer is so excited to get "four competing quotes"; and he, or she, or they end up having to pick a lender from what could rightfully be the best-of-the-worst on that particular day.  The poor consumer ends up paying too much on most loans, literally.  Remember, there can only be one "lowest" on any given day and an exact tie is unlikely. 

Bottom line:  13-of-14 offers would not include the lowest priced lender, based on an availabity of 56 lenders per state and 4 lenders per offer.

If a state only has 30 available lenders in the pool (which is a conservative guess), you will have much better odds:  Then, only 6 in 7 leads would not include the lowest priced lender.  What a deal! 

To LendingTree, the rotation is the best business model to distribute loans amongst it's true customers:  Mortgage Companies. 

Doesn't sound like it's in the consumer's best interest, does it?


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Post is included in group: All About Mortgages/Mortgage Networking

64 Comments on LendingTree Stinks- Here's Why

JUL
18
2007
I've always wondered how this worked.
Thank you for sharing it is very enlightening.
3:21pm • #1
133,105 Points 2 Featured Posts Outside Blog
They have a great marketing program, people have no clue what they are getting, they think they are getting the best deal and rate and most of the time it's not even close
3:25pm • #2
I have seen what using lending tree does to consumers credit, I had a person use them and there were about 100 pages of nothing but companies giving their rates.  What happened was that by the time lending tree got done with all of these reports my client's credit was lowered to the point that  they could not purchase a home.  You really have to know what a company is doing before you jump in.
3:27pm • #3
266,452 Points 59 Featured Posts Outside Blog
Excellent points Karen.  With marketing, on a scale from 1-10, I'd give Lending Tree a 9 or a 10.  With lending, I'd give them a 1 or a 2.
3:34pm • #4
231,237 Points 64 Featured Posts Outside Blog
Karen, that is such good information.  I had no idea how it worked either.  I don't know why I never thought about who the real customers are!!
3:34pm • #5
118,799 Points

Will Somebody please explain how LT is getting away with RESPA violations?

Their closing fee is clearly a referral kickback. 

3:38pm • #6
132,902 Points 29 Featured Posts
Bill-- I've wondered the same thing.  I don't see how they can take an application- even a partial one- if they are not licensed loan officers.
3:46pm • #7

great post

 

kudos to you

3:47pm • #8
370,774 Points 62 Featured Posts Outside Blog
Thank you.  Now mail this blog to every buyer in America.  :)
3:54pm • #9
132,902 Points 29 Featured Posts
Good point Chris.  Realtors:  Please bookmark this post and send it along to your customers who want to use LT.  They should thank you!
4:06pm • #10
9 Featured Posts

I agree that Lending Tree is a huge waste of time for most consumers. Something you might not know though. They give you a quote from 4 of their "preferred" lenders the first day, then the next day they give out the names of many more lenders. I've seen as many of 10 to 15. It doesn't always happen the next day either, sometimes it's with the first four, sometimes it is days or weeks later, and sometimes it is not at all. There is nothing wrong with rate shopping, but that site is just stupid.

4:07pm • #11
3 Featured Posts

Karen,

Thank you for posting this!  This completely backs up my blog post about two-thirds of US adults think Mortgage Advertising lacks credability.  It is because of companies like this and LIE-TECH (Thanks Bill) and their bait and switch advertising that we as Mortgage Professionals are fighting an uphill battle.  Fear not though, we will prevail!

If you want to read my post here is the link: http://activerain.com/blogsview/148248/Two-Thirds-of-US

 

R O
4:13pm • #12
3 Featured Posts

Also, I LOVE the pic you choose!!!!  What is sad is that alot of people look at Lenders in that light!! It is now our burden to earn the respect BACK from people.  I am up for the challenge.

R O
4:15pm • #13
I agree with Chris.  If there were a way to mass mail every buyer in America about this, that would be the key.  I remember 8 years ago when I started in the mortgage business, I checked into Lending Tree.  Just like you, I thought this was going to be the greatest thing in the world.  But, I'm glad that I talked myself out of it.  Alot of it had to do with the price, but it just didn't make sense to me then, and now it makes less sense to me now.  Thanks for the post!!!
4:19pm • #14

A lot of mortgage sites actually appear to be lead generation sites, Lending Tree is not the only one that appears as such.  Lead generation sites sell the borrower's contact info to mortgage brokers & probably retail mortgage bankers for a fee.  I have only used one of these services (not Lending Tree).   They did not ask about my experience or track record, but just wanted payment & passed along people's contact info.  The people I called did not get any info about me until I talked to them.   There was no screening process for the public using whichever sites this company got its information from.  Now, I may be reputable & experienced, but that company did not check specifically.  I wonder if Lending Tree does!

The best way to get a good loan officer is get a referral, preferably 2 or 3, from people you know & respect.  They could be your attorney, real estate agent, or just a friend or family member.  This way, you know who you are dealing with, & know at least 1 other person that can vouch for their work.

Another thing you may want to be careful about is that Lending Tree, & other similar sites, probably cannot guarantee the accuracy of the info they display.  I have found rates quoted in the past that were so far below market, they were at best just incorrect.  Lending Tree can't have complete control over this.  So, you have an apparantly neutral site quoting rates that people think are always accurate b/c multiple lenders are either plagued w/ typos or outright lying.  My problem is when I quote a correct - and higher - rate I loose business.   Then, I imagine that when the borrower finds out later their rate is higher, & is forced to close at the real market rate, they think all loan officers are liars!

 

4:20pm • #15
197,658 Points 56 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

Karen, I have received Lending Tree referrals from my broker in the past. This brings up a sore subject with me.  Can New York Times Publish this or something?  I did not have a problem with the clients, they were all great...for the most part.  The Majority of the lenders...Well, I'd rather not go there.  Let's just say that I've seen some of their GFE's.  I'm obviously not a Mortgage Broker, but I do know when 2+2 does not = 4  and I have a good idea when it smells funny. 

They don't offer the incentive anymore in Texas for using an LT lender.  I saw that question up there somewhere.

4:49pm • #16
3 Featured Posts
Sue, you could not have said it better.  Now more than ever people are DEPENDING on referrals as opposed to the first ad they get from the mailbox! 
R O
4:53pm • #17
109,021 Points 11 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Karen, Nice post. Take heart, a lot of real buyers will "find" this blog on google and they will learn something. Not everybody of course but that"s life.

The real problem with Internet lead companies is that they resell the leads over and over again. And people that rely on Internet lead companies to find a "good" loan "click" on more than one of them. It is their own fault that they lose points on their FICO score for inquiries.

There is no get rich quick scheme for us mortgage brokers, we just need to develop our referral business one customer at a time

Bill Roberts

5:33pm • #18
1 Featured Post
Good post Karen. It's interesting how things appear great but when you know more of the story, the shine seems to dull a whole lot. It's a shame that the average consumer has no idea about this. 
5:42pm • #19
173,945 Points 17 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

Karen,

I saved my 1000th comment for you.  My experience with Lending Tree as a consumer was horrible.  I was not an agent at the time and believed all that expensive advertising.  They bait and switched me and it made me so mad that I cancelled the contract right at the end and started over with a local lender.  Nothing at the end of the deal was what I was told at the beginning.  The local lender I went to said they hear that all day long about Lending Tree. 

I'm glad you're educating the masses about them.

Fran

6:34pm • #20
1 Featured Post

It is definitely the biggest scam on the Internet.  In fact it is so successful that there are "I can not even count them all" Internet marketing companies that do the same thing.  I even spoke with an individual that told me some of these bid lead companies even buy TD's from LO's and resell them as fresh leads....we do not know who to trust any more. 

There is definitely a problem when you purchase a $95 exclusive lead that is "triple verified" and this same lead company states that if the phone number doesn't work you can get your money back....you have to think to your self as to why they would make such a statement to begin with....I mean it should have been triple verified and we are suppose to get the leads almost instantly?

6:47pm • #21
14 Featured Posts
Wow!  You know, I had always heard that Lending Tree wasn't that great, but I didn't know why.  Now I know!
8:04pm • #22
117,379 Points 8 Featured Posts Outside Blog
Karen, once I had a client that called me, then called Lending Tree, and ....when Lending Tree was done, the client came back to me after they closed the loan that was to be a dream come true, better interest rate etc.  Well to make a long story short, the client closed the loan, took a higher rate and paid more in closing costs, the client comes back to me with a credit score that  use to be in the high seven hundreds, now their score was down in the 550 range, I could not put the deal through as previously could.  There ya go, another on bit the dust on the dream come true rate that never was there.  Nice post and hope this will help someone out here.
8:11pm • #23
Thank you very much for sharing, that was really good information! I need to pass this on!
9:34pm • #24
1 Featured Post

Karen,

Next thing you're going to tell me I can't actually get the car and payment they advertise in the Sunday paper :)

Very informative post - I had no idea how LT actually worked.  I suspected something fishy but didn't know why.

9:39pm • #25
1 Featured Post
Sounds a lot like the Homegain scam that is pulled all the time on consumers and realtors.
9:40pm • #26
2 Featured Posts
This is vital information and thank you so much for sharing.   I didn't know how the game was played, but felt confident there was a game.  Follow the money and answers appear.  I appreciate the opportunity to learn at the Karen School of SEO and Mortgage Info. 
10:13pm • #27
5 Featured Posts
Karen, I used their services several years ago and they didn't deliver on their promises! Too bad, great concept, but bad delivery!
11:01pm • #28
105,024 Points 2 Featured Posts Outside Blog
Karen - Thanks for yet another useful education. I will definately bookmark and send to my clients. Hey, I might even link to it in a post. Thanks for being a lender we can count on!
11:09pm • #29
296,501 Points 100 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog
Thanks for a very enlightening post.  I have had customers who have got their quotes/approvals through Lending Tree and wondered how such a "good deal" could sometimes provide less than the loan officers I work with on a regular basis.  The mystery is now explained~!  :)
11:13pm • #30
JUL
19
2007
257,978 Points 7 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog
From day one in my career I have heard this about Lending Tree.  Thanks for confirming the rumors.
12:23am • #31
Another great post Karen, thanks for shining some light into a dark area.
1:53am • #32
1 Featured Post
I've had a couple of referrals from people who were unhappy with Lending Tree.  Usually it's because of service.  BOOOO Lending Tree!
2:37am • #33
1 Featured Post
I hate lending tree, homegain, homes.com, housevalues.com, Justlisted.com they are all a big waste of time and money for those in the real estate industry.
8:28am • #34
The clients and other loan officers that I have worked with have nothing but bad stuff to say about lending tree.
9:00am • #35
581,796 Points 95 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Hit Router
Karen this is sorta like Homegain. The Realtors pay and the consumers think it is free. Little do they know and most of freaked out when we tell them it will be a 30% referral fee from us to homegain. Thanks for enlightening us on Lending Tree.
11:36am • #36
Thank you for all the detailed information.  
3:48pm • #37
Great Post! I wish this could run as a commercial to follow every LT spot :)
4:03pm • #38
JUL
21
2007
149,727 Points 7 Featured Posts Outside Blog

lendingtree lies.

lendingtree does a disservice to the general public

ok, i will say it. they suck

 

12:24pm • #39
JUL
22
2007
7 Featured Posts

Bill and I did a radio show a few months back about a former Lending Tree employee starting a (class action) lawsuit against Lending Tree.  It was claimed that NOBODY was really competing for business - the loans were handed over to Lending Tree Mortgage (or whatever their name was).  If interested, ask and I;ll fish out the details and the audio.

ONLINE LENDERS STINK - not just Lending Tree.

(Nice job Karen - thanks.  I knew I'd subscribed for a reason - a good one!  Sorry it took a while to revisit.)

12:33am • #40

Good insight on Lending Tree. It is not easy to compete in the "commodity" business. A good mortgage broker can (and should) add a lot of value for a client. Jeff certainly has a point. Very often it is impossible for a mortgage broker to beat the rate of a large lender's retail prices. We do both, real estate and loans.  Often, we can use loans as "lost leaders", meaning that we don't make any profit on them. Profit comes from closing a real estate transaction.  This applies especially to "prime lenders" clients.

3:26pm • #41
Karen, I got it bookmarked and I will make my clients aware.  Thanks for writing it so that anyone can understand it!
4:49pm • #42
JUL
23
2007
I think the bottom line on how to get the best service on a mortgage at the lowest cost is, do your homework (research current rates & ask around for referrals from former customers) and choose an individual who is experienced, technically proficient, cost effective, honest, & who cares about your needs and your future business.  Whether the person works in or out of state, works in retail banking or in a brokerage, etc, is not the last word on how well they will help you.  I have worked in retail banks & was every bit as concerned about my borrowers as I am now working in a brokerage.  Online sites are no substitute for doing your homework & asking for referrals.  People may think of the mortgage money itself as a commodity product, but our services are not!
1:12pm • #43
132,902 Points 29 Featured Posts

Okay Marie-- don't forget that I am licensed in California!!!

Thanks to everyone for the comments.

2:17pm • #44
JUL
24
2007

The best way for consumers to protect themselves from making poor financial moves is to educate themselves.  I recommend some great tools on my site pages: http://sueplayer.com/yourmoney.html and (especially for women): http://sueplayer.com/yourmoney/wealthforwomen.html It's shocking how little the average American learns about handling money in school.  We often don't learn it at home either.  This is something that needs to change, & I try to do something in that regard on my website & in my consultations with clients. 

10:25am • #46
216,071 Points 1 Featured Post Localism Sponsor Outside Blog
Karen,  Very well presented analysis of this finance option !  You really have educated many of us with this post.  Again, thanks !
8:52pm • #47
JUL
26
2007
1 Featured Post
Agents everywhere should start educating their clients to GET A GOOD FAITH ESTIMATE! After all of the bad press, going back to when movies were silent, you would think people would learn. Oh Well, there is one born every minute, or is it every second now?
12:53pm • #48
249,796 Points 16 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Wow, Karen, this is an awesome post.  I am going to reference it in a future blog, and also email it to my prospective buyers.

Karen R. 

1:24pm • #49
JUL
31
2007

Jim Little is right, getting a Good Faith Estimate is very important.  I would add this:  Get 3 Good Faith Estimates (aka "GFE"'s).  Here's why: Some mortgage brokers make errors, or worse, they play around w/ the numbers.  For example, I once saw a GFE in which the homeowner's insurance was quoted at triple what the borrower should reasonably expect to pay per month.  This was apparently done to pad the monthly payment b/c the rate quoted was below market (it didn't exist).  Why would a broker do this?  Because he knew that once the borrower locked in at the real rate, the correct insurance would be less & take up less of the monthly payment, leaving room in the bottom line for the real monthly principal & interest.  So, once the borrower psychologically accepted a certain total montly payment, the rate change wouldn't bother him too much b/c the bottom line was the same.  So, by using a fake higher insurance part of the monthly payment, & a fake lower rate, the broker might be able to get his business!

How can you protect yourself from this nonsense?  Get at least 3 GFE's and compare them line by line.  Ask each mortgage broker or loan officer WHY they put a certain number in each line & have them justify their numbers.  If you get 3 that are almost identical line by line, they are probably fine.

Also, when you close, your closing statement, which lists all the itemized charges,  & is known as the HUD-1, should closely or exactly match line by line.  For example, if line 802 on your GFE says $500, line 802 on the HUD-1 should say $500 or close to it.

 

 

10:27am • #50

I should add that if you are researching New York closing costs, my web page - a work in progress - can help clear up some terms:

http://sueplayer.com/aboutclosingcosts.html

 Hope this helps borrowers understand the process

 

10:29am • #51
Wow I knew that the place was joke but this just proves it. Buyer beware!
10:55am • #52
Hit Router
I have never heard anything good about Lending tree...or ANY online brokers for that matter...
1:18pm • #53
AUG
04
2007

Hey, Just wanted to ad a comment about another big rip off, PRIVATE MORTGAGE INSURANCE.  My credit union in Columbia Sc hooked me up w/ a high priced pmi co. and sold the loan at closing.  The pmi won't drop the policy regardless of equity in the loan.  Have to also have a pmt history of about two yrs!!

 

 

basilnut
5:43am • #54
AUG
06
2007

Basilnut, I think you should take some time to read (or re-read) your closing documents very slowly.  There may or may not be a minimum amount of time you need to carry the pmi in South Carolina - sometimes there are laws that protect the consumer in your state.  Also, pmi normally drops off automatically after your loan balance reaches 80% of your purchase price, which typically takes 5 years if you make payments on time but don't prepay anthing.

 Here are some instances in which people generally don't pay pmi for 5 years:

1. You refinance your loan.  Technically, this is generally done by paying off the old mortgage & starting a new one.  When the old loan is paid off, that terminates the pmi for that loan.  If you have 20% or more equity in the house at the time you close on the new loan, pmi wouldn't be needed on the new mortgage.

2. You make substantial home improvements that change the market value of the house and you can document this (using receipts, home renovation contract, etc).  An appraisal with interior photos is normally needed, & costs several hundred dollars, but generally worth it.

3. The market value of your home goes up significantly before the 5 years is up.   An appraisal with interior photos is normally needed in this case also.  There may be a minimum of time to wait after purchase, like 1 or 2 years in your state, but it will normally take at least a few months for the value to rise substantially even in a hot market.

4.  You prepay your loan so that the balance reaches 80% of the purchase price early.  This is not easy for most people to do, although some are able.

5. A combination of #2, #3, & #4 has also been used to end pmi early.

 Of course, the lender will always consider the actual market value of the home in any event, & if the market value goes down during this time, it may not be possible to end pmi early.

The above does not constitute a legal opinion, just some general information you might find useful.  For a final opinion on your rights as a South Carolina homeowner, see an attorney for a legal opinion.  I hope this helps. 

 

10:16am • #55
SEP
25
2007
Mortgage brokers are used to competition, we just have a problem when it is not done openly & ethically (I'm not implying any legal violations on Lending Tree's part specifically, just know that they might be selling your info as a lead so the call you get from a loan officer might be from any where).  I actually look to get pricing very cheap for my customers so that they will return. And, the strategy is working now b/c most of my customers are repeats!
9:29am • #56
Karen, this is only one reason why. I can think of many more. LOL. Great post
9:58am • #57
SEP
26
2007
132,902 Points 29 Featured Posts

"doug" -- I deleted your comment because it was...well, it didn't make any sense.  If you actually want to read my article, and tell me where I am mistaken-- go right ahead. 

If you just want to bash me because you don't know what the hell you are talking about, save your comments for your own blog.  You can write all about how great lending tree is, even though this post clearly points out the flaws in the system.  Jealousy has nothing to do with it.  My knowledge of mortgage brokering is what drove this post.

10:38am • #58
Great post, Karen.  I suspected this was how LT worked: it seemed to me the only way it COULD work for them, logically.  Caveat Emptor Online...
6:33pm • #59
OCT
03
2007
I was recently transferred to LT from another internal department. Your post is on point and I totally agree with the process you described. How do people that call in "know" they are getting the best rate? I would agree with your readers that people are not educated and it is very apparent with the subprime meltdown. You would not believe the disparity the customers I talk too facing imminent foreclosure. I would like to clarify what I do for consumers that call in. The approach I take is to educate the consumer with the basics. I know we are motivated to sell, sell, sell but cmon. It's not fair to customers to try to complete a form with no hope of getting matched up with lenders with no knowledge of getting their "house" in order. So, I answer questions and implore the customer to check with other lenders for "competing" rates since it will only reflect as one inquiry on their credit report (soft sell). Don't just stick with what we offer. Shop around. But, alas, some customers are in a dire situation and I feel like I am a counselor than trying to sell our products. I think it is a shame for someone in your position to help is not considered by us as well.
Feel Your Pain
10:01am • #60
195,145 Points 29 Featured Posts Outside Blog
I have been telling my clients about this scam for years! I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who realizes. :-)
10:48am • #61
APR
06
2008

Thanks for this.  Now I understand Lending Tree.  Exactly.  Warm Regards, Rob http://www.battlecall.com

 

Rob Lawrence
10:25pm • #62
249,796 Points 16 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Mr. Lawrence, I wish I could flag your comment for spam.  It is poor etiquette to post links to your own site in someone else's blog.

 

10:31pm • #63
NOV
19
Outside Blog

Way late to the party...

We used to own a title abstracting company back in DE. Lending Tree wanted us to service them, but wanted US to pay for the priviledge! The wanted US to give them a credit card number and would ever so magnanimously charge US $X.xx per search at the end of the month. And they wanted us to manually input the search info rather than fax the report.

We told them to kiss monkey butt.

Becky in FL

8:32pm • #64

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Michael and Karen George

Chandler, AZ

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