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Professional Pride

At Inman's Real Estate Connect San Francisco this last week I was quite surprised during a discussion facilitated by Brad Inman between Redfin CEO Glen Kelman and Lennox Scott, CEO of John L. Scott Real Estate. I was upset that through the discussion I believe the concept of sales person was taken down a notch.

You can check out the "Duet" between Lennox and Glen. The part I am interested in is at about 11 minutes. You can click right there. It is at this part that the conversation goes into a discussion on sales.

Real Estate Connect Video by - InmanTV

In response to a question from Inman, Scott began describing a set of nuanced terms, which I felt, sounded more like excuses, than genuine support. I was a bit appalled that sales wasn't propped up more by Mr. Scott. I'll give him that this was an interview and being on the spot it's easy to make mistakes, but I still didn't like it. While Inman was in there talking about how he seeks out sales people to help him, Scott was offering nuanced terms. Terms that I felt were almost apologies. Others may see it differently but what I felt I saw was an attempt to sugar coat the term sales.

Sales people should be celebrated. There are bad sales people I know. But they don't represent what I did when selling. They shouldn't be able to ruin the profession for me, or any other honest hard working professional out there. There are a whole lot of sales people who are making a difference in this world. They are doing a lot to assist people making important and life impacting decisions. In my recent past I took great pride in telling people I was a sales person. Sales is terrific and it makes the world go around. I have to say that as a sales person I took great pride telling people that I was in sales.

When I brought up what I saw with some people I know, I had some immediate detractors who, presented to me the stereotype dishonest slime-ball who might often try to manipulate a client into something they don't want. Personally my pride extended from taking my skills and knowledge about real estate to truly help my clients through the process of buying or selling a new home. The image needs to be changed so that a negative stereo type doesn't dominate the profession.

I've had the opportunity to participate in the careers of some terrific sales people. I see that in those people the level of commitment and to learning about and understanding how to deliver on the best interests of the client is phenomenal.

In my opinion we don't need "heightened concepts" to describe sales people. What we need is an effort by each sales person, and sales companies everywhere to educate the general public on the value of their sales people. Work needs to be done to educate the consumer on how to select a sales person that is knowledgeable, clearly interested in keeping the best interest of the customer at the forefront of their work.

Sales people, please stand up and have some pride for your profession.

Posted by Caleb Mardini on 08/09/2007 05:07 PM

Comments (38)

connectsf, sales

38 Comments on Professional Pride

AUG

2007

Amen Caleb! I'm off to watch the video now...Thanks for posting this and standing up for what you and many of us believe in.

Caleb,

Sales people first and foremost were always labeled as good B.S.ers. In this digital age, however, consumers are looking to be QUICKLY educated and not bsed. Let's give them what they want and deserve. Thanks, Fran

Caleb-Redfin is well versed and impressive...He interviews very well. Why are we ashamed of the fact we are sales people? Never really understood it, as sales people we have a wide variety of talents including customer service and relationship building. We come from all walks of life to appeal to a wide variety of people.

Sales people only eat if they sell.

Employees get paid every week regardless.

If I had to make the choice who would I choose? A salesperson, a hungry one.....

I have been in sales since I was 17 and I don't think that will ever change!

I sat through a training session today because it was quiet, I suggest all sales people do the same. What concerns me more than Redfin is Banks. If we don't spruce up our reputations, we all may be out of customers. Now that is something to be concerned with.

Great post Caleb! Love the new photo! If you miss the seaweed, you can come visit or I will send you some!

The original remark by Lennox that 60 minutes did not choose another agent because they were too professional.

Did I understand the Redfin guy to say he would send someone to show the home that had little or no experience and then have another more experienced person who never saw the home negotiate for the client. That sounds extremely dangerous.

Ok, I watched the whole video. I agree, he completely side stepped the whole conversation and could have done much more. I left with the feeling that he was totally unprepared. Other than that, I thought it was an interesting duet.

Stephanie, It was that sidestepping that bugged me so much.

Randy, Yeah I thought the whole experienced thing was off too. How does that serve the client? But I really don't expect more than that. I believe the company philosophy is that the agent doesn't do much anyways. It's counter to the argument they make for better customer service. But I don't care about RF here, my focus here is really on having pride for the sales profession.

I hope that the wider market can make it a greater initiative to push the importance, and educate the consumer on how to choose a quality, helpful, and effective sales parter.

Midori, Thanks!

Fran, I don't know why the BS has to be there but I get what you're saying. And you're right, in todays world helpful sales people stand out much more, while the BS'rs have a tougher time.

First Caleb, great New Picture! You are so very right on here in your post and it is the professional ( like me and others) that need to do a better job , selling our selves and our commitment to excellence. The others will go where they must... I need not say where that is. We all know.

What you have hit upon here should lead to a great deal of discussion. But the consumer knows only what they know. It (consumer) doesn't have to be right but they know what they know. If we are to survive, we are going to make the case for ourselves and what we do and the consequences for failing to do so will be at our own peril.

I am certainly glad someone has said this-as it needed being said. I will watch the video now and see how upset I get. I might have to come back here and leave even more comments for you. Excellent Post!

Caleb,

I love the image- every good agent is a little bit superhero! This is absolutely true! Unfortunately, there bad apples in our industry, but there are also some GREAT agents. I just received a client thank you letter that from a highly educated client (ivy league PHD) thanking me for helping their family find a home. In the letter, they recognized that buying a home is a process that takes a specific skill to make it happen. Let's keep talking about what we are doing so that every customer recognizes the process, and the importance of someone skilled assisting them through it!

Caleb. It's hard for me to comprehend anything but going above and beyond just the "sales" part of my profession. I watched 15 minutes of the show and had to stop it. That's the part Randy spoke about. That is bad....and yet the other guy had not too much to say. That's okay though....because when they meet US face to face the CLIENT sees for him/her self.

Man, I wish I could have been there to see this live. You're right, so much was left out that should have and could have been said about the value an experienced advocate/sales agent brings to the table!

Caleb, I don't really know the terminology that is used in the USA, however here in Canada, client and customer are two different things. We owe fiduciary duty to a client and we have a signed representation agreement with them, either a listing agreement, or a buyer's agreement. If we are not representing them, and they do not have their own representative (and even if they do), we are giving them customer service only. In this case we still have obligations to them, however we do not owe them fiduciary duty. If they have no representative of their own, and we are providing them customer service through an agreement of purchase and sale on one of our listings, then we must have a customer service agreement signed by them so that they clearly understand the relationship between themselves and us. Having said all that, I thought the video was kind of shaky on those two terms as well as a lot of other terminology and concepts put forth by all parties.

I agree with you that Lennox wasn't very convincing or supportive. It all comes down to the whole 'what we call ourselves' thing again. It is becoming a highly legal matter here in Ontario (as evidenced by my emails to you concerning the whole 'agent' thing on AR where I express my concern since here in Ontario we are not allowed to call ourselves an 'agent' unless we have our broker's license ) and we are allowed to use the words Salesperson or Sales Representative only. Many reps prefer the whole idea of 'counselor', however , like you said, we actually are 'sales' people and there is nothing wrong with that. We facilitate sales of property, from one end or the other. There is a heck of a lot more to it than just writing up a contract. In fact, the contract comprises only a very small fraction of what we do. For this reason I do not see Redfin going very far nor succeeding in the long term.

Nice new picture, btw. I was wondering about that old pic, what the thing was on your face; now I know it was seaweed. I like this one although the other one was kind of intriguing and mysterious. ((-:

Who put the wig on TLW? Ok 'nuff funny stuff. Honestly, I thought we all had Fiduciary Duties and a code of ethics that we followed. I thought THAT was what distinguished us from being a "slimy salesman" I thought that was why I feel good about doing this job, and not trying to rip someone off at the furniture store making them pay double or triple what it cost the store to bring it in from another country. I thought we had to disclose any information about properties that they might even possibly try and purchase. I haven't seen the car salesman coming over telling me that in 2,000 miles I will need a new alternator and in 5,000 miles the Engine will blow a gasket. Don't we disclose when there are problems with a roof, or water heater? Don't we honestly tell our clients when a deal isn't going to be the best one for them? Don't we give them options of every house on the street to buy, not just our listing? Have you seen the Nissan and Honda dealerships offering a co-op fee for sending a client over to the other car that's better suited for them? Perhaps people have forgotten that side of real estate. Yes, we are "sales people" but we're not one of THOSE sales people.

Ok sorry for the rant and comment take over...I'm better now :) Thanks for the post though, I love the Super Hero Ad.

Lexa

My license says Real Estate Salesperson. That means a lot to me. My title is Realtor Associate®.

Hi...I'm "Sally" and I'm a Realtor Associate ®. What does that mean? That means I SELL homes!

Okay...had to come back to "vent"....;)

Thanks for posting this, Caleb. How very disturbing that this is how Lennox handled this - really sad since he's in NAR Ledership representing all of us who are REALTORS.

Ann

Caleb,

Redfins entire model is geared for people who don`t want to do sale, instead they select "Order Takers" who could work for Redfin or anywhere, they don`t have to be licensed agents.There lies the problem...

Being a John L. Scott agent, I've had the opportunity to watch Lennox speak quite often. He definitely was not as polised as he usually is. However, I think he fielded the questions well and I'd have to give the "debate" over to the traditional model. Not a TKO by any means, but in my mind a clear victory.

I'm a geek and I've been watching Redfin since nearly the day they popped on the scene. I had some issues with a couple of things Glen had said (and they're the same issues I've had with Redfin in the past). Sending a Junior "right out of school" agent to provide the home tour borders on negligence. Yes, we were all "right out of school" at one point, I get that. However, as we've learned and grown, there are issues we can see in a home that maybe the casual observer cannot. Yes, they would be revealed with an inspection, but why spend the $325 if you don't have to? We can point out unique features to the home that the potential buyer may gloss over. We're not SELLING them the home, they are still making their own decision. I hate the implication that a more seasoned agent would somehow MAKE a buyer purchase a home they did not want. But a junior agent is simply there for access and lets the client make up their own mind. Rubbish.

Also, why the dodge on what their agents make? 3 to 4 times tha national average? So what 30 - 40K? How about a range? Our agents start out at $36K plus bonuses, etc. Our top agents make $100K or something like that would not have given up the farm.

IMHO, Glen did a fair amount of back pedaling. I'm not totally convinced that HE'S convinced that his model is the way to go. A paycheck every two weeks is nice. But top notch trusted service is better in my opinion. You should be compensated accordingly.

William, you are right about what the consumer knows. That's the point though isn't it? I watched the discussion and saw the openings, and couldn't believe they weren't being taken. I found it odd.

Sales as a profession has an issue that needs to be addressed and it affects real estate and loan professionals in a big way.

Ginger, Jonathan made that image for our insert into the Connect Packet. I liked it too. I've made it clickable now so a person can see the full image. Thanks for sharing the story about your client. That's awesome.

Sally, I thought the argument went in favor of Kelman. By side stepping the issue the ball was dropped for the sales person.

Rich, You are SO RIGHT. I'd love to have seen you take it on. :)

Jo-Anne, Real Estate Sales person fiduciary responsibilities vary by state. In Washington State there are a couple of different roles Buyers agent, sellers agent, and dual agency. In all cases the sales person has certain obligations. When playing for either side they act as a fiduciary for that side.

I honestly think the loan officer, or the real estate agent acts as an advisor. Those relationships should be built upon trust. My point is that no one should apologize for being in the sales profession. In the discussion that's how it came across to me, I feel this is part of a wider image problem for the profession of selling.

Lexa, I think what happens is everybody expects a certain level of professionalism. When that's delivered. Fine, great. But when it's not, well that's when you hear the stories and stereotypes. That's why I hope the industry, brokerages, and individuals educate the prospective consumer on how to choose a good sales person. How to find the right fit.

Ann, you’re right. NAR leadership should be ready for this sort of thing.

Scott, That's my point. Lennox did not carry the ball this time. Redfin's model is another model, and Glenn was able to state his version of what works. But the commissioned sales model never received adequate representation despite the clear opportunities. That being said. Every one has an off day, so this isn't personal. It's just that I think there's a wider issue to be addressed and I hope sales leaders, including everyone here, can take it to heart. Hopefully the message can be communicated to the wider public.

Thanks John, but I really wasn't trying to talk about Redfin here. They have a model that works for some people I suppose. I also agree that Lennox may have had an off day.

But the wider story is how does the sales industry, real estate sales, loans, and otherwise deal with this issue of the word "sales" being a nasty term? And will it?

If John L Scott, as an industry leader has the stance that the solution is to change the name of a sales persons to "trusted adviser" then I think we are in trouble.

And the whole scenario here is who cares about the RF guy....or the other guy....get some different "actors" and it will appear different every time.....

It's the professional image we carry when someone says "sales" like it's a dirty word... which I came back and stated in my second comment. I'm proud of what I do....and when I meet someone face to face...they definitely don't treat me like I'm "dirty". Wonder why.

So glad you brought this up. It's why I believe AR has made a huge difference already. We are predominantly an honest group and we do make positive differences in people's lives. I don't think of myself as a sales person. I'm more a project manager and I only recommend financially enhancing decisions to my clients. I am their advocate.

So that will be my new title: Professional Real Estate Advocate!

Your second to last paragraph to me, describes the "new" type of sales person who will excel in the information age. Bueno!

Jennifer, Being their Advocate is important. But that doesn't mean being in their sales person is bad.

Renee, Love to hear it!

Hey Caleb, love your stuff, thanks for being so good at carrying the torch for real estate bloggers. Ok, full disclosure, I'm the PR Director for John L.Scott. That means I work very closely with Lennox, especially when it comes to events like Inman. I've read all of the comments and I understand what people are saying. If you don't know Lennox or haven't heard him speak before, I might see how you would think he didn't adequately articulate the value of a full service real estate agent. With that being said, I can honestly say that the one thing that Lennox lives and breathes every single day is being a Realtor. I would challenge anyone who is more proud to be a part of the real estate industry than Lennox. I'm fortunate enough to work with (and for) him and to see how almost every part of his life, both professionally and personally, is driven by the real estate profession. He never meant to insult those who consider themselves sales people, he's just trying to do his part to raise the bar so that full service real estate professionals aren't grouped together with our lesser, limited service counter parts. Perhaps that did not come across in its full glory. I appreciate everyone's comments and plan to share them directly with Lennox so he can do a better job of representing all Realtors next time because that is truly his goal. Thank you!

I felt that both Lennox and Glen did a very good job. Lennox did a fantastic job of discussing his companies innovations. I don't feel that he downplayed the sales person at all. I think he was showing that his sales force has evolved to so much more. Glen was very honest about the growing pains his company has encountered and didn't sugarcoat any of their failures. Lastly the moderators final comments were great. We all need challenges to make us better. Complacency will kill the traditional model.

Caleb, sorry to comment off topic here but I am most impressed by that PR piece. Please thank Jonathan for me. I am most proud to say I am a real estate agent and have that piece associated with what I do. Active Rain does it again. Thank you.

PS: Here is a link to an article that Lennox recently authored that does a pretty good job of articulating his thoughts about full service real estate professionals. Happy reading! http://www.johnlscott.com/imageurlroot/106/docs/Lennox_FullSvc_RISMedia_2007.pdf

I wanted to agree with Maggie - being a marketing guy I really like the slick you made up. Was that published somewhere?

This is what makes AR so useful - yes for those who pursue the social aspect it is great for that - for those who use it as a business building tool, the technology allows us to deliver pure information with personality - and that is what makes this so strong.

Please keep up the good work and spend your time building more, (such as the referrals and not the referral notifier - awesome!) - not regulating what we have.

Now Have a Blessed Day,

John Occhi, Hemet CA REALTOR®
Mission Grove Realty

Mrs. Rossi,

Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts on this issue. I appreciate that you've taken the time to go over the discussion. I understand Mr. Scott to be an advocate for Realtors®.

I do think however, that the marketing I've seen put forward by many brokerages, and the NAR, has been ineffective in delivering an important message that connects with consumers and educates them on the importance of having, and choosing a salesperson that can work to help them achieve their goals.

I encourage sales people to think about this critical message to help them in becoming better advocates for their clients.

Thanks for your response, Caleb. I agree with the comments about brokerages and NAR having a challenge articulating an appropriate message that connects consumers with real estate professional. I also know it's a constant, evolving conversation at JLS and something we are always striving to achieve. By the way, Mrs. Rossi? Feel free to call me Shelley. Mrs. Rossi is my mother-in-law. :)

Michael, thank you for your thoughts. I appreciate your introduction of complacency. I agree that's an important consideration.

Maggie and Jeff, thanks that flyer was created by Jonathan for The Network's insert for ConnectSF. I've forwarded on your messages. I suppose that's the first ad we've ever published :).

Shelley, Thanks again.

Caleb, I think NAR is guilty of this too. Thanks for the post, this is good dialogue here.

AUG

2007

Caleb - you highlight a great point - we have somehow run away from the "salesperson" label - for a variety reasons - but I think primarily because we are trying to elevate the perception to a more professional level. As for me, I still list my profession as real estate sales, even though I have not actively sold a piece of real estate in 14 years now. I will forever be proud of being a salesperson and I don't think I am alone. I don't care for the "consultant", "advisor" or customer service label - although at times we can provide all of those functions - bottom line - we SELL and your flyer says it all. Thanks.

Caleb,

Nice post and thanks for sharing the video. I've been in sales for 20 years in one form or another and the bottom line is that Sales generally equals service. A great waiter is going to upsell that fine wine that compliments your meal perfectly.... not just sell you an expensive bottle of wine. Much like a great real estate sales agent is going to highlight the positives of a home to make it stand out and attract the buyer looking for that particular feature...not just snap some pics and stick it in the MLS with a generic description.

I particularly think that it would have been far more beneficial to have taken the opportunity that was given and explain that a John L. Scott sales agent has far more real estate experience then a Redfin agent then side stepping the issue with the nuances you are describing. (Unless of course he can't say that which would be a travesty -- no matter what type of technology is being implemented.)

If I go to Morton's tonight, I certainly expect my waiter to have more knowledge of wine then if I go to Outback.... that's why the tip will be bigger.

-Paul

You know often the comments say it better than I do. Thanks Paul & Michelle.

AUG

2007

I am one of the proudest salespeople around. Proud to be committed to the craft. Proud to have been taught this craft by by my father and mother.. Proud to have made a difference in some 650 families.

AUG

2007

He doesn't like the word "agent" but he uses the word "deal"? Huh? And what's wrong with being an agent?

I agree that the commission model is the better model for the Real Estate industry. I have had many salary and contract type jobs in the past and there is no better motivator than to be compensated for delivering measurable results and value to my clients. It's what feeds us on a daily basis. For those Realtors that operate under a "Life Relationship Model" to provide true value to each and every client, will be blessed with long term friendships.

Selling Real Estate is only a job if you don't enjoy meeting and working with people.

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