Special offer

I Want a Deal But You Can't Have One

By
Real Estate Agent with RE/MAX Preferred Inc. Realtors

A little over two weeks ago I wrote an offer on a Real Estate Fixer Upper in the Portland Metro area. My Long term Client ( a real estate Investor ) who is always looking for good deals was in the mood to buy again. He consistently buys 1-3 properties a year. He is funny because he always has grandiose plans of rehabbing them but often resorts to flipping them instead.

Sometimes he does a little work on them but often times does nothing. Because he pays cash and does no inspections I am usually able to find him some pretty good candidates. The trick of course is understanding that there is a pretty good chance he will want to flip them immediately.

Hence it keeps me on my toes because I know he wants to make some money ( his profit requirement is at least $15,000 to $20,000) and, cover all of the closing costs as well. With purchases usually running in the $250,000 to $300,000 range it means that I will generally be selling it for $50,000 more than he paid. So I really have to know the product.

So this great property that we wrote an offer on had some pretty stiff competition. And even though our offer was strong it was not strong enough. They had accepted another offer. The Listing agent though offered us a sneak preview on another property that his client had just listed with him that very morning. The agent had not had enough time to get back to the office and put it in the MLS so this was an opportunity for us to get a jump start.

The Property was a long way from where this Listing agent normally worked in but it was right in my back yard in an area that I do most of my business. My client and I quickly made our way to the property and immediately knew that this property was significantly under-priced.

Within the hour I had written a full price offer with a 10 day closing and no contingencies. The offer was accepted by night fall and hit the MLS the following day as a Pending Sale.

After Closing my Client true to his nature did a little bit of dry rot  work and bought a few fixtures to doll it up a bit and then after receiving a bid on the full rehab called me up and said " Let's Flip Her ".

That evening it went on the market and by noon the following day I heard that there may be an offer coming in. By 5:00 pm of that evening we had two offers to look at and one that would follow a little later. The first offer was a no brainier. It was above full price and all cash. The second offer was someone hoping to cash in on all of the media hype of it being a Buyer's market, they were devastated to hear that their offer was not accepted.

The third offer is the interesting one. The agent had called me several times to voice his clients enthusiasm for this home. It was everything they wanted and felt that it was well priced. That is when the last call came in. The Agent had checked the sales data and seen that my client had just purchased the property a few days earlier for about $45,000 less than the current asking price.

They wanted to know what the Seller had done to the property to justify the price. I was astounded. What possible difference could that make!

Of course my response to the agent was the price is the price. The fact that the previous Seller had left money on the table does not mean that this Seller will. I further volunteered another analogy. Real Estate Investor's often buy and sell foreclosures at large mark ups. What is the difference in that?

They just could not come to grips with it. And even though they new they would be competing against two other offers, in the last moment changed there offer for far less than they had originally intended. Of course we had a much better offer on the table to accept. It just seems sad to me though that the mentality of this Buyer and their agent was that they wanted to get a good deal but somehow were unwilling to do so if someone else got a good deal.

What say You? Does this all make sense to You? How would you handle it and what side would you take on this one?

 

Yvonne Root
rooms b.y. root - Prescott, AZ
Home Stager - Northern Arizona
Herb, It seems that some folks simply don't like to see other people also do well. A few years ago my dad decided to sell a travel trailer which he and my mom had enjoyed for a number of years. He did no repair and very little cleaning. After Mom's death he was simply through with it. The price reflected his desire to simply sell. The travel trailer sold the first day it was listed in the paper. The very next day the trailer was sitting on a lot with a for sale sign on it. That delighted my dad. He said that he was glad that someone else would be happy "owning" the trailer too. Isn't win-win the best way for any deal to proceed?
Aug 14, 2007 05:11 AM
Herb Hamilton
RE/MAX Preferred Inc. Realtors - Portland, OR
Real Estate Broker ,CDPE, Downtown Portland
Sara : This must be driven by PC. The ongoing effort by those who feel we need to protect others from being stupid. Thanks so much for reading and sharing.
Aug 14, 2007 05:24 AM
Herb Hamilton
RE/MAX Preferred Inc. Realtors - Portland, OR
Real Estate Broker ,CDPE, Downtown Portland
Yvonne : Your Dad sounds like he is a wonderful guy who understands the nature of a good deal. Thanks for sharing.
Aug 14, 2007 05:26 AM
Lane Bailey
Century 21 Results Realty - Suwanee, GA
Realtor & Car Guy

I can honestly say that I have based many offers on what the seller recently paid for the property, and allowing a reasonable profit, made a deal.  Sometimes it was MUCH lower than the listed price.  Other times... not so much.  

But, where this deviates is thinking that the seller is somehow beholden to sell at a price not of their choosing.  I've been turned down a lot, too.  No sweat.  

When I'm working with an investor, I'll offer not what the property is worth, but what the property is worth to that investor.  Our goal is to sell it for what it is worth... at a profit. 

Aug 14, 2007 09:48 AM
Herb Hamilton
RE/MAX Preferred Inc. Realtors - Portland, OR
Real Estate Broker ,CDPE, Downtown Portland
Lane : Thanks for your point of view. I know others are eager to read the various ways that people can and will aproach a common problem.
Aug 14, 2007 12:08 PM
Anonymous
George
"Pocket Listings" are a horrible way to do business (unless you are the lucky agent working with a flipper of course, get is coming and going). In my opinion is just give buyers a lower opinion of Real Estate agents. Thanks for letting us in on the dirty underbelly of "pocket listings".
Aug 15, 2007 11:21 AM
#19
Herb Hamilton
RE/MAX Preferred Inc. Realtors - Portland, OR
Real Estate Broker ,CDPE, Downtown Portland
George : What Pocket Listing? I am not sure at all what point your comment is trying to make. It obviously does not have anything to do with the subject matter. I will generaly give any one the benefit of the doubt. However if you have some axe to grind or some past injustice that you are trying to right, then perhaps you would find it better to do so on someone esle's blog or come out of the shadows and create your own blog so that we may all comment and share in your torment.
Aug 15, 2007 12:02 PM
Anonymous
George

The point of my comment is that you were handed a pocket listing for the flipper.

quote: The Listing agent though offered us a sneak preview on another property that his client had just listed with him that very morning.

The house was never on the market for other potential buyers to have a shot at. That is called a pocket listing.  With that in mind you might have an idea of why the third client was a little upset. This closed network of buying and selling for "special" clients makes the rest of the legitimate buyers a little upset.

I don't know what shadows in which you presume I lurk, but I'm offering up comments in response to your open question of "What Say You?". It seems quite relevant to the subject matter you presented, maybe not in a way you would prefer, but relevant none the less.

Cheers.

Aug 15, 2007 12:20 PM
#21
Herb Hamilton
RE/MAX Preferred Inc. Realtors - Portland, OR
Real Estate Broker ,CDPE, Downtown Portland

George : All comments are welcome. As you can see by the fact that I do not delete comments, unless that is if someone were to use the comments to breach an AR rule or to use for Spam purposes.

In regards to the listing offered to me as a sneak preview. A literary license was taken to enhance the story. Fact Listing agent had listed the property ( according to him almost 3 months previously ) The Seller ( an Investment group ) had taken a longer time than normal to remove the former tenant. They had also made the decision to paint and make minor repairs to the rooms that had been damaged. During that time period the Agent had reached out to other agents and had done some advertising to attract buyers.

A true pocket listing is a property that rarely makes it to the MLS. It is often a property that the Seller has some motivation to sell but not a lot. Often times seller's will say " if you stumble across a Buyer who is willing to pay what I want, then I might take a look at an offer " .

As for being a closed network of buying and selling for special clients, the following is true. Special Clients are those who pick up the telephone and express there interest in Buying or Selling property. Part of being a successful realtor or a sucess at any kind of selling is to keep phone log of all potential clients and there needs. It is nothing more special than that. People who choose to keep there information private and search on their own unfortunately cut themselves out of the loop.

All salespeople would love nothing more than having a log book full of clients. Buyer's or Seller's and would eagerly go down the list calling any and all according to their needs. Those who give out their information are the true legitimate Buyers and are rewarded with the opportunities. People that withhold their information are often regarded as illigitimate prospects.

In regards to the shadows I speak of. You have no pofile or link back to yourself that I can follow. If you look at each of the comments you will see that they all have links. My profile is an open book as I am sure you have read. You have chosen to make several comments on various blogs I have written in the last month. None of those comments had anything positive to say. In fact they looked to find and exploit any angle that might be interpreted as negative. I always try to work with positive people as life is short and I choose not to work around and with negative people. That is from where I speak.

It is obvious that you choose to leave comment's and have knowledge of the area. If you have that much to say then why not register your profile and champion your cause. As you may or may not know this is an open forum dialogue and in any subject matter you will find people on all sides of the issue.

 

Aug 15, 2007 01:58 PM
Anonymous
George

Hi Herb.

Thanks for your thoughtful response. I do appreciate your willingness to engage in a thoughtful exchange of ideas concerning the real estate business and the Portland-metro market.

In my humble opinion a "pocket listing" is a listing that is not shopped around in all fairness to a wider market. Whether that be someone living in a home that is mildly motivated to sell or a listing in which the seller's realtor offers the listing to a select few agents that are withing his sphere of influence. It reminds me of insider trading.

You did not say you made this contact through "picking up the phone" or "keeping phone logs" you said that this opportunity came from a listing that was sold before you could make an offer from the seller's agent. It almost reminded me of a classic film noir in which Bogart say "Psssst....Hey buddy."

I believe this is why the 3rd party interested in the above home lowered their offer to below the price you believed they would offer. I'm not sure that I agree with your opinion that the 3rd parties' intelligence level reflects upon the offer they made. It just might reflect upon their feelings (legitimate or not) that they could possible have been taken advantage of.

I'm not sure how the relevancy of my having a profile on "AR" detracts from the legitimacy of my responses to your posts. What is the difference? Becuase I choose not to make a public spectacle of my "persona" that shouldn't reflect upon the valid points of view that I may hold.

Aug 15, 2007 03:43 PM
#23
Herb Hamilton
RE/MAX Preferred Inc. Realtors - Portland, OR
Real Estate Broker ,CDPE, Downtown Portland

George :

The whole Pocket Listing concept is not one that I personaly give much credence or thought to. Although as an active agent, talking to and with potential Buyer's and Seller's throughout the day it is almost impossible not to know of properties that could fit this category. It is from this group of contacts though that true listings ( those that are fomally marketed through the MLS ) spring from.  

I will not dispute that there are more than likely some agent's who choose to work within a very tight circle. It is not though the Buyer who's place it is to complain. The Seller has no obligation to the public to make his property availlable to all who wish to see it. Although from the outside it may appear as foolish, know one can tell what relationship was established other than the parties envolved.

The current Seller of the property did originaly come from a phone call ( in this case almost 7 or so years ago ) He shared with me what his hope to purchase was and gave me his qualifications to buy and his contact information. Just the same way as hundreds of people do each year.

Connections to people are formed in a variety of ways. That is what makes us all unique as individuals. I guess that the great real estate trainer Mike Ferry said it best some years ago when he said that an Active Agent will talk to thousands of people every year. It is almost impossible to work with that many people. So set paramaters. He went on to say that he always chose people he had an instant connection with. People that had a positive outlook on life and were motivated to Buy or Sell.

No insider trading here but thank you for the smile created from the Bogart comment.

It is oten hard to discern why anyone makes the decisions they make. The fact about this property is that at the current price it is still a wonderful deal with plenty of upside. There could have been any number of reasons for why the price is higher in a short period of time. The reality is that it is a home to choose from out of thousands. Each person is free to evaluate it and make there own decision. If the property does not make economic sense to yo, then you should not get involved.

I for one am always saddened when someone pays more than they can hope to get back. The essence of a good deal is one that leaves margins for others to profit from. ( That is just in my own personal philosiphy ) I am sure that there are plent of people in the world that could care less, caring only about themselves and tough cocanuts to everyone else. Time between sales though has no bearing on the price.

If I buy something in a very slow market that takes 10 years to increase in value or 10 minutes to increase in value has no bearing in price. For the Price is the Price. That is what the Seller's perogative is. The Buyer has only to choose to get involved or not.

And George I do not think that you having an AR profile enhances or detracts from the legitamcy of your responses. I belong and maintain an AR profile because I enjoy talking with the people here. Part of that enjoyment comes when I read the comment and can quickly view the commenters profile. It is not the same as standing face to face but helps to understand more about the individual making the comments.

I sincerely suggested you activate a profile as you have much to say. It would be interesting to read articles written by you. I mean that sincerely. I have formed some great relationships here through mutual commenting on blogs. And I often form the strongest relations with people that at first I may have taken exception to. Through the long course of constant dialogues I have often found that there was more common ground than not. Generally it is the expierences that we have had which shape our oppinion and to which side do we come down on.

If you choose not to it is obviously your choice. I think you are being a little dramatic though when you think that somehow by sharing your thoughts in an open dialogue that it would " make a Public Spectacle of your Persona " 

 

Aug 15, 2007 04:36 PM
Bryant Tutas
Tutas Towne Realty, Inc and Garden Views Realty, LLC - Winter Garden, FL
Selling Florida one home at a time

Very interesting post and thread Herb. Not sure how I missed it earlier. Lender rules on financing properties that were bought to flip quickly have changed. In fact I think now if the title has changed hands in less than 6 months they are going to look very hard at the property for appraisal purposes. The reason is a lot of folks bought and then did nothing more than slap on a coat paint and raises the price 50k. They were shoddy flips and the lender would eventually end up foreclosing on a property where the value was not there. So it could be issue with anew buyer getting financing on that fast of a flip.

Now George does have a point. A property that has not been exposed to the open market for a period of time can very well be under sold. However, a seller my be very much aware of this and wants nothing more than a quick sell. It really just depends on the situation. If it's an investor owned property they have their own parameters of what a reasonable return is and that may have nothing to do with market value. Investors are a different breed.

This is a good discussion Herb.

Aug 16, 2007 12:59 AM
Herb Hamilton
RE/MAX Preferred Inc. Realtors - Portland, OR
Real Estate Broker ,CDPE, Downtown Portland

BB : Thanks for reading andyour insight. I work for the most part with Investors. And you are so right they do often have an agenda that baffles the mind. Many times I have counselled the Seller of the advantages of exposing properties to the larger market, only to be told that he would prefer marketing strictly through me and or my company.

In the above post all of the participants are investors. The original selling party, the current selling party, and all of the buyer's as well. The property is a semi fixer with undeveloped space in and outside with a lot of upside opportunity. Appraisals are not an issue here as all parties are offering cash and or very large downs.

It may be nervousness about pending foreclosures on shoddy workmanship that is causing lenders to look hard at flips. Possibly. I think however that it is probably stricter guidelines over all coupled with Homeland Security in an attempt to identify potential money laundering that brings this on. That and attempt by us all to keep ourselves safe from ourself by attempting to identify those who would take advantage of others.

Thanks for weighing in BB.Have a sucessful day in Florida.

Aug 16, 2007 01:28 AM
Lyn Sims
Schaumburg, IL
Real Estate Broker Retired
I believe that it is some time of rare "phobia" that says I can make money and you can't!  This has happened a few times last year on properties that were purchased and fixed up & then resold. The buyer doesn't want to do the work (or can't) but then they will not compensate the person that does! Just don't get it. We need someone with a psyche background to reply with an answer!
Nov 09, 2007 02:58 AM
Herb Hamilton
RE/MAX Preferred Inc. Realtors - Portland, OR
Real Estate Broker ,CDPE, Downtown Portland

Lyn : Because the majority of my Business is Rehab I run into this over and over. It is somehow okay for Grocery stores to purchase products at a wholesale price and gouge us as consumers when we buy retail, but it is evil when the hardworking Contractor buys a Fixer and creates a wonderful home if heaven forbid he should want to make a profit.

Nov 09, 2007 03:27 AM
Philip Maltaghati
United Public Adjusters & Appraisers, Inc. - Melville, NY
United Public Adjusters & Appraisers, Inc.

Herb,

Its obvious that buyer#1 is a better and more qualified buyer with his cash offer. I wouldn't even think twice about the other buyers, especially buyer#3 who thinks he should get a good deal if your seller got one. Originally you mentioned that buyer#3 thought it was a well listed property. It went from a well listed property to its not fair the seller is making a profit in such a short time. I have bought many houses and when buyers come to the open house some will laugh at the price and say "c'mon, you just bought the house a couple months go for 50-100k less". What is the problem with that. I always say to them if you can find a better home than mine, go for it. I renovate my houses and properly list them for a quick sale.

I know someone had mentioned how banks are giving problems with homes being flipped. This shouldn't be a problem if the appraiser properly listed the new improvements in the appraisal. Sometimes banks will require reciepts of the improvements made from the seller. If a new buyer is purchasing a house that it being flipped and gets a FHA loan, they require the seller to own the house for 90days. Some banks are stricter than others.

Look forward to servicing your appraisal needs,

Philip Maltaghati

New York State Certified Residential Appraiser

Jan 15, 2008 10:16 PM
Herb Hamilton
RE/MAX Preferred Inc. Realtors - Portland, OR
Real Estate Broker ,CDPE, Downtown Portland

Phillip,

Thanks for stopping by and your detailed comment. It is funny how  ENVY  often times will prevent a Buyer from pulling the trigger on what they know is a good deal. When I know those sales will not go together I will councill them a little about that charachter flaw. I know they still won't be able to come to grips with it but someone needs to tell them about it.

The apraisal problem is a sticky one. I run into this all the time as I work with a lot of Renovation projects. It is the lenders who provide the money and so as the old saying goes " He who Pays the Fiddler Calls the Tune " .

 

Jan 16, 2008 01:50 AM
Cody Loughlin
FloridaPropertyClub.com - Sarasota, FL

A letter of explanation needs to be delivered to the end bank about the seasoning issues.

Jan 21, 2008 10:48 AM
Herb Hamilton
RE/MAX Preferred Inc. Realtors - Portland, OR
Real Estate Broker ,CDPE, Downtown Portland
Cody, You are very right. I have used that in every case when it comes to seasoning. In some cases it does not matter to the lender. Most cases however it has been enough.
Jan 21, 2008 01:35 PM
Anonymous
Vanessa

"...The Agent had checked the sales data and seen that my client had just purchased the property a few days earlier for about $45,000 less than the current asking price.

They wanted to know what the Seller had done to the property to justify the price. I was astounded. What possible difference could that make! ..."

Speaking as a "Buyer", let me just point out that the Buyer's Agent was doing his/her job. I'm not sure why you should be "astounded" at the question.

If I were buying a property that had been purchased for 45K less than the current asking price, I'd want to know what the state of the property had been at the time of purchase. The question is informational in nature, but it's not necessarily a deal-breaker. However, I suspect your rude response, was.

I, too, would have qualms about making an offer for a property that had been purchased at such a discount, and about which the Seller refused to give pertinent info. To a Buyer, your response suggests nothing more than you're trying to rip off some unsuspecting sucker.

All Agents are not equal. And I have certainly come across Agents who were not worth the cost of the paper it took to print their license. In this case, these Buyers were very lucky THEIR Agent was NOT one of those.

The Buyer is not your Enemy. Like you, they're just trying to get the best deal they can.

 

 

Jul 14, 2008 04:07 AM
#33