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Back in February 2009, Congress had the opportunity to pass sweeping bankruptcy reform that would have allowed judges to modify the terms of mortgages on home residences.  The House passed the legislation, but the Senate never took up the debate and the amendments died!  At the same time, the financial industry was bailed out, along with the insurance and auto industries; all in the name of too big to fail.  But, millions of Americans have seen their lives and families destroyed in the interim.  All in the name of preserving the financial industry.

Jefferson's words are as true today as they were in 1802: "I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies.  If the American people even allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."  Thomas Jefferson, 1802.

They are that much more prophetic as it relates to the power of banks today upon our elected officials through lobbying and political contribution, and when coupled with those of the Founding Fathers in the Declaration of Independence, should give each of us cause to be concerned that: "Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, – That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.”

There is a Constitutional mandate that Congress enact uniform laws on Bankruptcy (and Immigration).  The first bankruptcy laws were enacted in 1800 and repealed in 1803, coincidentally during Jefferson's term in office.  Several other enactments followed in response to interim economic panics prior to the enactment of the 1898 Act, followed by the 1978 Code, and the 2005 BAPCPA.

Now that the financial industry seems to be bouncing back nicely, is it time to revisit bankruptcy reform to give the average American family an equal break?

 

34 Comments on Thomas Jefferson - Revisited

JUL
09
2010
1,545,551 Points 416 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

The day that the Congress climbed into the pockets of the banking industry and threw the consumer to the wolves was a sad day indeed. 

Everyone in this country EXCEPT a residential home owner can have his mortgage modified in bankruptcy, everyone, businesses, second home owners, investment owners, etc. 

The Congress kicked the American home owner under the bus and licked their fingers counting their PAC money.

12:43pm • #1
723,956 Points 223 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

I believe that Jefferson also said something along the lines that given a powerful government and no press or a powerful press and no government that he'd prefer the latter

12:44pm • #2
671,845 Points 69 Featured Posts Outside Blog Attended Rain Camp

Interesting quote. Those were some smart fellows back then--not yet corrupted by South Park, MTV and the like.

1:10pm • #3
317,279 Points 35 Featured Posts Called Shot Master

Louis, great post.  It's too bad the reform didn't pass, I know it was about this time last year.  If Bankruptcy judges could make lenders reduce principal for homeowners this would have had a much better outcome for the housing market.  I keep hearing from experts that we're on recovery, but I don't see it.  As #1 Lenn mentions everyone else can have their mortgage modified in bankruptcy, EXCEPT a homeowner with a primary residence.  Where's the fairness in that?  Thanks.

1:12pm • #4
1,254,806 Points 242 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Hit Router Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

Louis- That is one of my most favorite quotes of Thomas Jefferson and one of the most important quotes in our entire history. Jefferson was a great leader. There are timeless principles and this is one of them. He knew that history will repeat itself. And he knew this to be true because of what was going on in England. These are not men to throw off and discard for they speak the truth and our congress and ALL branches of government need to obey the constitution and respect it also. The banksters are alive and well and planning all sorts of ways to keep screwing the american public with the government's blessings. 

1:14pm • #5
338,875 Points 27 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

How many other Constitutional mandates does the government have that they haven't acted on??  Helping strapped homeowners was (and is) as important as large institutions.

1:24pm • #6
1,028,142 Points 27 Featured Posts Outside Blog Called Shot Master

The implication by your last line, "Now that the financial industry seems to be bouncing back nicely, is it time to revisit bankruptcy reform to give the average American family an equal break?" is that there is something wrong with the bankruptcy laws. Perhaps you could expand on them?

My husband, a home inspector, business & marketing consultant, a photographer, and a wannabe attorney, helped two of our friends go through bankrupty during the past three years. Both of them chose bankruptcy in order to keep their homes since bankruptcy laws here generally allow you to keep your home, a car, furniture, and various personal belongings up to a maximum and as long as they are not extravagant relative to what is owed.

Since our two friends could not refinance their homes, and they didn't want to sell, bankruptcy was a legitimate option that allowed them to discharge all of their credit card dept while keeping their home. My husband simply did all the research, put together all the papers, had them signed, and turned them in. Their bankruptcies were satisfactorily discharged in just three months. If my husband can do it for other people while not being an attorney, I'd have to say that there is not much wrong with the bankruptcy laws as they currently are, but I don't know how they could be improved.

Neverthless, our friends were ecstatic because they had no attorney's fees, and bankruptcy can be expensive, which kind of begs the question, "How can I file for bankruptcy if I can't afford the bankruptcy fees?" Of course, they do owe him a monthly margarita for the rest of their lives.

Anyone can file for bankruptcy, and you don't need an attorney. You simply need the ability to read and follow the instructions that all of the bankruptcy courts provide to you free of charge.

What was even more interesting about these two situations is that the day after their bankruptcies were discharged, they had banks, car companies, and credit card companies calling to offer them new loans, new cars, and new credit cards. Made me want to file for bankruptcy.

It's an interesting system.

1:26pm • #7

Great post.  I called, written, and screamed at my rep, Sen Kay Hagen about the fact that Gov't Sponsored Agencies like Fannie and Freddie were not addressed in the Financial Reform bill.  This regime weighs so heavy on us.  Why were we so dumb to elect this Congress?

Gerard Falzon
1:38pm • #8
260,424 Points 10 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

Sometimes I find myself wondering if we will ever get back to the days when it appeared that real liberty and checks and balances existed. It is all just smoke and mirrors now? 

On another note, do you believe that bankruptcy is the answer to the American bailout? 

2:40pm • #10
291,720 Points 5 Featured Posts

Louis: Thanks for the post. It's pretty difficult when you've got our powers that be in banking's back pocket. I wish it were different but, for now, the big players are controlling the playing field. Thanks again!

3:11pm • #11
393,119 Points 42 Featured Posts Outside Blog Attended Rain Camp

I'll have to do some more research on bankruptcy.

Can someone provide a link or explain  what happens to a homeowner when they go through bankruptcy? Especially when they are upside down on their mortgage. 

3:47pm • #12
1 Featured Post Outside Blog

good points

 

did you vote for Ron Paul?

4:53pm • #13
144,559 Points 1 Featured Post

I love Thomas Jefferson - even visited his home in Virginia on several occassions.  Great man.  I too need to do more research on bankruptcy and agree that reform is needed. I am sure that the banking industry will be lobbying against any type of reform.  I also did not realize that everyone else can get their loans modified during bankruptcy - expect for the american homeowner.  That is just wrong.

5:15pm • #14
4 Featured Posts Outside Blog

In response to Post No. 7:  You gratuitously state that a bankruptcy can be filed without an attorney!  A simple credit card case maybe can be filed without counsel.  But take a homeowner who bought a home (through maybe through you) without fulling understanding the economic realities of the loan documents and documentation; i.e., option ARMS, negative amortization, etc., and the bankruptcy case becomes much more complicated.  What happens, for example, if the homeowner's income exceeds the Median Income in their statistical area?  What happens if had the homeowner filed before a short sale they would have qualified for Chapter 7 relief, but after they cannot?  Should they have had counsel before the Short Sale closed?  What about the difference between Capital Gains and Debt Forgiveness?  They are not treated the same by the taxing authorities.  Does the Realtor have any liability for receiving a commission for a Short Sale, where the homeowner receives nothing, and cannot obtain Chapter 7 relief?  Does the Realtor, notwithstanding the CAR disclosures have liability to the homeowner who must now pay several thousands of dollars during a Chapter 13, rather than receiving a discharge in a Chapter 7?  Are you not advising clients that they need to seek bankruptcy counsel, because your husband assisted in some simple cases - maybe by luck!  What would have happened if the United States Trustee audited the file?  What would your husband advised those people then?

Please, before you give advice that bankruptcy can be filed without counsel, consider all of those people who can ill afford a home in the first place and can ill afford to be paying over a 5 year commitment period in a Chapter 13 case, because they were led to believe a Short Sale would be better for their credit!

As I advise Realtors for whom I provide lectures and lecture materials, stay within your expertise, and refer your client to my office for a $100 consultation on their alternatives and strategies BEFORE closing on a Short Sale.  Their lives are already turned upside down, they do not need to have their lives turned inside out too!

Best regards.  Lou Esbin

6:26pm • #15
4 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Response to Post No. 12:  Please refer to my website www.esbinlaw.com, where you will find articles that I have written and where I have posted a really great video produced by the US Courts.  Also, where you have a question, send me an email esbinlaw@sbcglobal.net, and I will try to answer within 48 hours.

Best regards.  Lou Esbin

6:28pm • #16
220,341 Points 2 Featured Posts

Thanks for the post Louis.  When congress revised the bankruptcy laws in 2005 they made it more difficult for individuals to escape the clutches of their creditors.  Most folks don't qualify for Chapter 7 so they are only left to file Chapter 13, which you noted above, is unaffordable for most.  I agree with you.  When dealing with legal/financial matters people should consult professionals.  The money and time saved by their expertise is worth MORE than the fee they charge.  Great post and best of luck to you.

8:35pm • #19
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Damn right...but the guys who have a vested interest in shafting the average working family have bought/paid-for those people who make laws. Compound the overall unfairness of the new bankruptcy laws with the fact that more than 60% of all bankruptcies are caused by healthcare bills not covered by the people who REALLY run our nation's healthcare system: Insurance Companies!

8:39pm • #20
865,393 Points 50 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Hit Router Attended Rain Camp

I respectfully disagree about cram-downs.  There is a very good reason that all of the entities that you mentioned, aside from residential homeowners pay substantially higher interest rates for their loans...  there is more risk to the bank.  It is also more difficult to qualify for those loans...AND finally, the downpayment requirements are significantly higher. 

If you put it in front of a consumer, how do you think they will answer?

  • Choice A) 5.5%, no cramdown, 3.5% down payment ($1095.83, $7k down)
  • Choice B) 6.5%, cramdown capable, 25% down payment ($948.10, $50k down)
  • Choice C) 8.5%, cramdown capable, 5% down payment ($1460.94, $10k down)

I can tell you that the VAST majority are going to pick option A.  And also, for the VAST majority, it will be a better choice because they won't go through a bankruptcy. 

In effect, the buyer is making an insurance payment of $350+/mo that will pay off if they get a modification in bankruptcy...  (rates are for illustration only)

9:52pm • #21
224,448 Points 22 Featured Posts Outside Blog Hit Router Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

As a former trial paralegal, #7 really scares me.  This can be construed as practicing law without a license and can hold serious consequences.  I ALWAYS advise my clients facing a short sale to visit with their attorney beforehand.  If they do not have an attorney, I have one who will provide an initial consultation for free.  We have too much liability in this business to be handling it so frivolously.

10:42pm • #22
271,486 Points 3 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

What a collection of ideas here, I don't know where to start. 

11:37pm • #23
546,186 Points 11 Featured Posts

Hi Louis -- Very insightful.  It is startling and very disconcerting the power large financial institutions have over our legislators and individual lives.

11:57pm • #24
JUL
10
2010
608,296 Points 26 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

Louis, Thomas Jefferson was not only a genius, he was incredibly prophetic in his writings. I love to visit his home whenever I can. Very informative post, thank you.

Thomas Jefferson's Monticello

Thomas Jefferson's Monticello

12:33am • #25
4 Featured Posts Outside Blog

So, it seems that we have a consensus, but not 100% agreement that things are not what they should be.  And, it is as a result of Jefferson and the other Founding Fathers that we can have these discussions; agree in some respects and disagree on others.  But, they also gave us direction through the Declaration of Independence on what our duties are when we find our governance usurped by despots, such as today's financial industry.

1:00am • #26
393,119 Points 42 Featured Posts Outside Blog Attended Rain Camp

I was thinking about it and saw Lane's comment in #21 to be a good thought.  I don't like big banks but Lane does make some good sense.

I never thought about it, but maybe that's why investor loans are so much more expensive and require much more down.

I never like changing the rules after the fact.  Maybe they could change the cramdown rule for primary homeowners going forward on homes bought after today.  Then banks and their money investors could price that into the loans going forward.  It would be interesting to see how that affected rates.

Things like that seem to  affect interest rates.  I think one of the reasons that mortgage rates are cheaper in Georgia vs. California is because it's much easier and quicker to do a foreclosure.  I think most people are happy with that tradeoff.

7:39am • #27
152,567 Points 1 Featured Post

As long as we have the Party of NO (Hell, NO!) we will have NO reform.

10:39am • #28
367,515 Points 5 Featured Posts Outside Blog Called Shot Master

A very thought provoking (and  thoughtful) post and comments, Louis. Thanks!

11:53am • #29
4 Featured Posts Outside Blog

In response to No. 27:  Actually, interest rates are slightly higher in California because California is an anti-deficiency state.  The hoopla that has surrounded HAFA about the lenders not pursuing the deficiencies has been the case in California for purchase money loans since the Great Depression.  And, in California, we have what is referred to as the "One Action Rule," which prohibits a foreclosing lender from pursuing a borrower after they have pursued nonjudicial foreclosure.  Traditionally, nonjudicial foreclosure in California would take 110 days from beginning to end.  That has changed since July 2008 with requirement of preforeclosure letters.  I have not seen good research and statistics on the impact of possible cramdown on interest rates, although the financial industries yells loudly about it.  Honestly, I do not believe the spector that wholly undersecured seconds or HELOCs had any negative impact on lending during the "Bubble."

2:20pm • #30
JUL
11
2010
105,414 Points 9 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

Lots of great ideas. These are the types of posts and comments that make us better understand our industry, even when we don't agree.

 

5:25pm • #31
JUL
19
2010

Do Jefferson's words concerning this matter translate well more than 200 years later? How well were banks tied into colonial America as compared to today?

Were they huge employers? Doubtful.

Did people need them to be able to mail funds in order to pay their bills? No.

It is likely that a rather small percentage of early Americans had much dealing with banks. As such, it was easy to castigate them as they really weren't needed.

Today, the overwhelming majority of Americans couldn't live without the services of a bank or credit union.

So, let's be careful before we do more to undermine them. As we saw in the financial industry collapses of 2008 and 1929, our economy dies without such institutions. 

Noel Sheppard
12:38am • #32
JUL
20
2010

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10:54pm • #33
AUG
09
2010

I appreciate the concern which is been rose. The things need to be sorted out because it is about the individual but it can be with everyone.

-------------------------------

Repossession Mortgage

John
8:31am • #34

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