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Short Sales - A Common Question

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Services for Real Estate Pros with AZ Veteran Notary Services CA BRE 01444168

Short Sales:  A Common Question
by John Occhi, Hemet CA REALTOR
Mission Grove Realty 

Aside from my ActiveRain blogs and responding to questions that are left in the comments of the articles I write, I often receive email messages from people who for whatever reason do not want to post thier question in a blog article.

A common question I receive has to do with investors, as a matter of fact, I believe I have now answered this very question at least 3 times this week, that I received through email contacts from my ActiveRain blog.

Let me post the specific question I received just a few short hours ago...

<~>~<~>~<~>~<~>~<~>~<~>~<~>

John,

You seem to be the short-sale King. I have learned a lot from you about the subject.

Here's my question:

Will a lender consider a short sale on investment property if the Seller has equity in other properties? Can the Seller be forced to sell the other property or would it be subject to a lien for the amount forgiven by the lender on the short sale?

Also, must the Seller have basically NO MONEY in any bank accounts. Or, must the seller only show that they can no longer afford the mortgage payments?\

Thanks for taking your time to answer.

<~>~<~>~<~>~<~>~<~>~<~>~<~>

So, let me address this point by point...

                                                           

First I want to thank you for the compliment, however the title KING is a bit overwhelming and while I certainly do appreciate your respect for the knowledge that I share, I am very humbled to think of myself as KING of anything...even more humbeling is that others would consider me worthy of such honor is extremely humbeling.

So, by all means, please continue to read my blog - go ahead and subscribe to it if you'd like and add me as an ASSOCIATE and write a few nice words about why you have selected me as being worthy to be your Associate and I will return the favor.

As far as your question, you have to understand that an investor is just that...an investor who by the very nature assumes risks that most Americans are not willing to assume.  These are the people who dream of making a million dollars in a year by investing in real estate.  Well, they should do more dreaming at night and not watching so many late night infomercials.

                                                          

Although real estate investors are a very important part of my local Hemet real estate business right now, and they should be a part of yours too, I do not have much sympathy for them when a deal goes south.  It's not like they were going to send me a bonus check when they sell the property...let alone share the windfall with wither the bank or the IRS...so exactly why do I or anyone else feel sorry for them when an investment does not work out for them?

This has been pretty much the attitude of the mortgage lenders until very recently.  I now have one of my own investor properties listed as a short sale -still no buyers, but a great little 2+2 on a very deserible Hemet street for only $200K.  I have heard of other investor short sales being accepted...so, like the rest of our industry it is changing very rapidly.

The second part of your question has to do with liens and deficiency balances.  Well, the jury is still out on this - it is definitely way too early to tell.  If there is only a first mortgage that had not been refinanced then in all likelihood there will not be any pursuit of the deficiency balance in either a short sale or foreclosure situation.

However, if any cash has been taken out of the property then the lender has every right to go after the deficiency, if its collection had not been negotiated away during the short sale negotiation.  Just think about this for a moment.  A homeowner (investor or primary residence) bought at the right time and after 2 or 3 years cashes out $100K and buys a boat.  The loan resets for a much higher interest rate and then the market value crashes.  Now the borrower decides they want to walk away rather than pay the higher payments...and they walk away with a $100K boat, free and clear.  Why wouldn't the bank come after that borrower?

I just use the boat as an example - an extreme example...or is it?

                                          

My guess is if the banks don't go after these 'cash-out' borrowers than they will be condoning a huge white collar crime that the tax payers will end up covering.  Sorry - but that is the way it is.  Even if the banks don't pursue these directly, they can still sell the notes after a short sale or foreclosure, if the debt has not been properly negotiated.  Having a dozen years in the collection agency industry, owning 2 different agencies I can tell you that bad debt is bought and sold all the time for pennies on the dollar.  Even though they may no longer be secured with real property, most are very recent and most will have loan applications with verifiable assets to attach - such as jobs.  I'll pay a nickle on the dollar for that kind of paper all day long.

The third part of the question has to do with the homeowners assets.  Again, please put yourself in the seat of the mortgage company that is losing its shirt right now.  For any hardship to be accepted, there must be a true hardship - having money in the bank that would inconvenience the borrower to pay the bank is not typically considered a hardship.  Again, the question begs to know if this is a cash back situation.  If it is - then by all means pay the bank and declare bankruptcy if you have to.  But please, there are a lot of Americans much needier than your investor client and we can't seem to take care of them.  But now we have a group of people who have controlled small amounts of wealth and we are going to start singing the blues...I think not.

I do not mean to sound harsh, but lets understand what a short sale is all about.  A primary residence can no longer be afforded by the family that lives there, who has suffered and continues to endure a hardship - loss of job, illness, injury and even death...no a bad business decision. The ONLY way for the family to avoid foreclosure is to walk away from thier home, allowing someone to come in and buy it for pennies on the dollar and knowing as the law stands today that they will inherit a huge tax consequence with the IRS if the difference between their loan amount and net the bank receives after the property is sold comes up short.

I am certain this is NOT the answer you were hoping for but please understand that Katrina victims are still living in sub-standard trailers more than 2 years after that disaster...it sounds like your client has a nice place to stay and money in the bank too.

Let me step down from my soapbox now.  Believe it or not, but I am a Republican...but there has to be some social justice in our society.

                                         
Now Have a Blessed Day and God Bless all of the Gulf Coast Katrina Victims!

Have a Blessed Day,

by John Occhi, Hemet REALTOR®  
Mission Grove Realty  

All Content Copyright Protected © 2007 - John Occhi, Hemet CA REALTOR®

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Until Next Time, Have a Blessed Day,

John Occhi, ePRO, REALTOR®
DRE Lic No: 01444168


ePro,John Occhi,www.johnocchi.com,realtor      Certified Probate Real Estate Specialist Logo Awarded to John OcchiFive Star Logo,Certification,REO,Five Star Institute     

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This blog and the contents written here is the intellectual property of John Occhi, Temecula - Murrieta, CA REALTOR® in the South West Riverside County region of the Inland Empire of Southern California.  The views and opinions expressed are just that - views and opinions of John Occhi and those who comment.  Please note that I am not an attorney or a tax professional and any time I discuss either topic, I suggest you consult with the proper professional for relevant assistance. 


I am proud to be a full time REALTOR® who is proud to be a contributing member of the ActiveRain community.

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Edson X. Bezerra
Boardwalk Realty of Florida - Fort Myers, FL

I have brought to contract 2 short sales in the last month and both have fallen apart due to bank noncooperation.  They still are trying to squeeze more than what the market will bare.  Most of the agents I have spoken with say they are having similar problems.

Sep 02, 2007 04:14 PM
Steve G. Snarzyk
Trademark Real Estate, Inc. - Saint Peters, MO

I liked your take on not feeling sorry for investors when a deal goes south.  That is investing, there is risk, without the risk there would be no reward. 

 Good post, thanks!

Sep 02, 2007 04:38 PM
John Occhi
AZ Veteran Notary Services - Marana, AZ
Mobile Notary Public/Certified Loan Signing Agent

 Edson Bezerra - I don't know you or the particulars of your offer - but my guess is most agents are believing the bank when they say NO.  Remember that every NO is closer to a YES - it amazes me how quick most agents give up and believe the banks...they want the short sale...they do not want the property back!

Have a Blessed Day,

by John Occhi, Hemet REALTOR®  
Mission Grove Realty  

Sep 02, 2007 05:06 PM
John Occhi
AZ Veteran Notary Services - Marana, AZ
Mobile Notary Public/Certified Loan Signing Agent

Steve Snarzyk ~ Saint Charles County Realtor® - Thanks Steve, you know as a Christian man my heart goes out to everyone in need - but in this case they are here because they put themselves in this position seeking greater reward than working for it everyday, like you and I must.

Have a Blessed Day,

by John Occhi, Hemet REALTOR®  
Mission Grove Realty  

Sep 02, 2007 05:08 PM
Barry Shapiro
Broker-Associate - Camarillo, CA
As an investor myself, it truly amazes me that I cannot represent an investor-client on a short sale if it's owner-occupied and has a NOD filed.  I have a short-sale listing with an owner-occ. 100% financed offer in escrow waiting for a lender approval.  In the interim, I have an agent submitting an investor's 20% down offer, as a back-up offer.  No NOD has been filed, as yet.  It will be interesting to see which offer the bank prefers -- once we hear back from the lender.  We have contacted the CAR Legal Dept. to get instruction on moving forward, should the NOD occur.  The seller has consulted with a tax professional, and is ready to move ahead with their decision.
Sep 02, 2007 05:28 PM
Dan Forbes
Bradenton, FL

John, Thanks for taking your time to give a thoughtful answer to the question that was asked.

Regarding your lack of sympathy for investors: "I do not have much sympathy for them when a deal goes south", I disagree. Aren't many homeowners basically the same?  Didn't they take out risky 100% loans with adjustable rates, or pay-option ARMS?  Didn't they make risky decisions? Didn't they refinance to buy boats as well?

I don't understand why people seem to always revel when investors run into trouble.  I do have my opinion on that, but I 'll withhold it.

In my market 40% of our 2005 sales were to investors.  Many Realtors told inexperienced speculators what a good deal it was to buy pre-construction houses and then flip  them.  These Realtors made a LOT of money off of these investors.

Well, now these investors are in trouble.  Foreclosures are at an all time high in our area.  People are in financial pain.  Their savings are being wiped out with negative cash flow.  Their lives are ruined.

Sure others may have more hardship, but I do think these investors deserve our sympathy.  Especially since our Realtor community made so much money off of their purchases.

(That's my rant and my two cents)

Sep 03, 2007 01:50 AM
John Occhi
AZ Veteran Notary Services - Marana, AZ
Mobile Notary Public/Certified Loan Signing Agent

Barry Shapiro - what I find interesting is that you are in the short sale process with the bank...giving serious consideration to your offers without a NOD being filed.  Will you please come back and share how it all turns out.

Have a Blessed Day,

by John Occhi, Hemet REALTOR®  
Mission Grove Realty  

Sep 03, 2007 02:30 AM
John Occhi
AZ Veteran Notary Services - Marana, AZ
Mobile Notary Public/Certified Loan Signing Agent

 Dan Forbes - Bradenton Real Estate - Thank you for your responce form the other side of the coin.  You make some excellent points.

As far as my sympathies, I believe my comment about the boat was and is for anyone who took the cash out - these people are vulnerable to having to pay back the cash they took.  As far as Investors, don't get me wrong - I love the ones I work with.  However, I do not steer an investor to any particular investment.  Perhaps they came to you and others in your market like a kid in a candy store with a fist full of credit and cash wanting to just get in the game. 

Every investor I have worked with has his own particular flavor, as I like to refer to their preferences.  I often make a 31 flavors analogy.  Once I learn what flavor a particular investor is interested in, then I can set up the algorithms of the search I want to perform for each individual investor client / prospect.  I will tell the investor that I will find the deals and facilitate the transaction, but base on their professional status as an investor I do not hold thier hands and tell them where to put their money - that is a decision only they can make.

Again, I for one do not revel when anyone is in trouble.  As a Christian man, my heart does go out to all in need - but there are different levels of need.  For example, I wold much rather go work with the poor in Guatemala then in our own cities - why?  Because they don't have the social infrastructure to pick them up when they are down like our poor do - not to say our poor don't have it rough, but they certainly do not have it anywhere near as bad as what they have in Guatemala or other third world countries.

Inexperienced speculators probably had no business playing with hundreds of thousands of dollar investments.  I have an investor now who will only play in the under $30,000 market - because she can't get hurt more than she can afford to...no matter how much I want to mover her up to triple digit deals they are out of her comfort zone.

And yes, as a whole, REALTORS made a lot of money across the board in 2005.  So where is the REALTOR relief coming from in 2007 and 2008 for those who can no longer make it as a REALTOR?  Are we going to take on everyone's problem that we have made a dime off of?  I do not believe that is our responsibility as a profession - what we take on individually is another matter.

My area too is very high in foreclosures - as a matter of fact RealtyTrac said I line in the 4th worst area of the country for foreclosures - so believe me, I feel your pain and the pain of your investor friends and clients.  The carnage will be brutal, once the dust settles, yes their will be financial ruin - but that does not make it the banks responsibility, my responsibility or God help us, it is not the Governments responsibility for a risky venture that took a wrong turn.  My rule for Vegas is I only go with cash money that I am willing to lose.  No plastic in Vegas for anything except my room.  Otherwise, if I make money on my Vegas money great, if I don't it won;t ruin me.

I can hear my grandmother right now, who has been dead for 26 years, "Don't put all of your eggs in one basket".  Well, grandma was definitely right in this situation.

You can have the soap box back now, if you want...

                                  

Have a Blessed Day,

by John Occhi, Hemet REALTOR®  
Mission Grove Realty  

Sep 03, 2007 02:50 AM
Todd Clark - Retired
eXp Realty LLC - Tigard, OR
Principle Broker Oregon

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one getting questions like everyday in my e-mail. I get calls from investors, home owners and even other Realtors on what they should do.

It is amazing to me the other Realtors that say that they won't deal with a bank since they say they won't pay their commission they requested? What? Who are you working for? I just heard a case where a home owner lost their home to foreclosure while a Realtor fought with the bank about their commission.

Todd

Sep 03, 2007 05:52 PM
John Occhi
AZ Veteran Notary Services - Marana, AZ
Mobile Notary Public/Certified Loan Signing Agent

Todd Clark (Realtor), GRI (Washington Co, Beaverton, Oregon) Todd, I guess the more exposure we create for ourselves the more questions we will receive - some of them good and others off the wall.  This is a good question though and one I believe the answer to will change soon, as it appears to be changing as we speak.

Keep up the good work on your blog, you have some great stuff.  As for the REALTOR®, all he has to do is go to Short Sales 101 and figure out the bank will always knock his commission down a point...always.

Have a Blessed Day,

by John Occhi, Hemet REALTOR®  
Mission Grove Realty 

Sep 04, 2007 12:17 AM
Christopher Walker
Mission Grove Realty Inc. - Hemet, CA
Local Broker and Realtor - Hemet & San Jacinto, CA
Get off that box and get to WORK!    You are da king big guy....now get to work!
Sep 07, 2007 11:37 AM
John Occhi
AZ Veteran Notary Services - Marana, AZ
Mobile Notary Public/Certified Loan Signing Agent

Christopher Walker Hemet CA Real Estate - but Chris, I do some of my best work on the soap box...when I can get to it, that you're not on it!

Have a Blessed Day,

by John Occhi, Hemet REALTOR®  
Mission Grove Realty 

Sep 07, 2007 11:49 AM
Anonymous
Sam

I DO NOT feel sorry for these lenders OR their credit card sister arm!!  Do you know the thousands of $$$ they spend on advertising!!?? Especially direct mail. Their IDIOTS!!! Amex sends me a really nice classy looking peice for a Delta Sky Miles card, AHHHH I've had one since '98.  I was receiving prior owners of my home for well over a year after being the new owner.  It's ridulious.  AND don't let me get to crazy about the fine print...even with my magnifying glass can't even read!!  I could go on, but I will spare you! 

LENDERS, BANKS AND 3RD PARTY PROCESS COMPANIES ALL NEED TO STOP BEING ALL MIGHTY!!!  THEY ALL HAVE TO MANY EMPLOYESS, poor souls...

Cheers!

SAM

Sep 17, 2007 09:06 PM
#13
Karen Hubbard
Great American Title Agency - Gilbert, AZ
Escrow Officer
Thanks for the feedback on this question. I have been working with short sale clients and have yet to encounter an investor short sale. I think I will be a little more prepared now to answer the questions they might have. I know there is a lot of criteria to be met in order for the mortgage company to approve the short sale. In my opinion most investors still have money in the bank and frankly need to learn to cut their losses. Don't get me wrong, there are those whose story would constitute a short sale and by all means they should do it. However, if the reason for the short sale is because they don't want to loose money on it then maybe they should not be investing. It is a high risk area of employment for several reasons and should not be thought of lightly. I could go on but I will spare you. Again, thanks for the information, I found it very useful.
Sep 18, 2007 06:53 AM