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Calling all mortgage brokers & title companies. To back-date or not..... your thoughts?

I cannot tell you how often I am asked to back date. I'm told it is no big deal, etc. I'm told, you can do it because of this or that - with their own explanation why it is OK. First off, it is a violation of Florida, and most if not all states laws. There are NO loop-holes or exceptions on this one, what-so-ever. Period. Why? Because it is fraud. And while there are many responsibilities of being a notary, one of the primary duties of a notary is to PREVENT fraud. I'm not naive to think that when I turn down this assignment, that the requesting person will keep calling other notaries until they find someone willing to honor their request. If you are a notary doing this, you either do not know what you are doing and what your responsibilities are as a notary, or you do not care. Although it probably is a crime to ask this be done (conspiracy to commit fraud) in Florida, it is a bit in a gray area. In California, it is not only fraud for the notary to do this, but the person ASKING the notary has also clearly committed a crime as well. Black and white, clearly defined! To the best of my knowledge, CA is the only state where that is specifically addressed, and I wish many other states, including mine, would adopt this policy!

Either way, if you are a mortgage broker, title company, etc., wanting this done, do you REALLY want a notary out there representing YOU that is willing to commit fraud? Or that doesn't know their full job or responsibilities? Or they do not care? Do you not want a notary caring about your client, and knowing full well what they are doing at the signing table? I certainly would hope not, but it is a shame so many are in fact out there wanting this done.

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Posted by Ronald Gillis, CNSA Southwest Florida Notaries, Port Charlotte, 941-7-NOTARY on 09/03/2007 01:53 PM

Comments (52)

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Originally posted at: Ronald's Blog - Southwest Florida Notaries, Port Charlotte FL (941-7-NOTARY) Serving all of SW Florida: Calling all mortgage brokers & title companies. To back-date or not..... your thoughts?

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52 Comments on Calling all mortgage brokers & title companies. To back-date or not..... your thoughts?

SEP

2007

Back dating is illegal, just as you stated. I certainly would not want to work with a Notary who was willing to back date! Good post.

As a former QA 'overseer' in the pharmaceutical industry; I whole heartily agree! I've seen some pretty hefty consequences for 'back-dating' events (the FDA calls this FALSIFICATION, and can get you fired). I believe it hurts your integrity too...

Good for you that you're unwilling to look the other way.

It seems that many people looking the other way (if not actively participating) is what has created our current epidemic of mortgage fraud.

It seems that the shifty can always provide a long list of reasons that it's not a big deal, that everyone is doing it and no one 'really' is harmed.

We will all be paying the cost of mortgage and other fraud for many years, so a few greedy people were able to line their pockets a bit more.

This is probably a rant best left for another post.

Good post!

Thankfully, I've almost never been asked to back date documents but I know they more companies you work with the more likely this is to happen.

SEP

2007

I have run across this problem with some documents that were incorrect. By the time they corrected the spelling of the Co-borrower's name, we had re-scheduled the signing to the next day. I then had to make numerous calls to get them to change the date. It was a lot of hassle and they wanted me to ignore the problem but I decided that it would be worth it to keep pushing them to change the date. Eventually, they did.

I forgot to mention in this blog, the ONE person that would pay the biggest price if done.....the NOTARY! They could face losing their license at a minimum, and could face jail. I guess as long as it is 'the other guy' and not oneself, it is perceived OK.

I must say, it is interesting only notaries & realtors replying. Not one mortgage broker or title company. hmmmmmmm.....

SEP

2007

Ronald - with all the problems around us it is our responsibility to stand strong and report all of these crooks. Good for you for standing your ground!

ines

SEP

2007

no back dating allowed. Rule #1, 2 and 3.

Why anyone would ever consider this a solution is amazing since most lenders will do an interest credit if the file funds in the following month. I know sometimes you could be dealing with a lock expiration but truely if the docs came that late is that really the fault of the notary? I'm not pointing fingers just saying in general... I agree that not only is back dating docs illegal but unethical and down right stupid. Is it really worth your job and reputation? NOT TO ME! :) Great post!

Gary, Debi, Eric, LaShon, Lacey, Ines, Rosemary, & Karen, thank you all for your comments!! Karen, it was nice to finally see a title company post something, and even nicer to see a title company with ethical standards! Thanks.

SEP

2007

Ron, I have been watching this blog. I too would be interested in seeing opinions from LO's, title comps, and mortgage comps. The really interesting part to me is you have had over 500 views on this blog. You have gotten some attention.

I think its a matter of interpretation to the beholder of this subject. I really feel they dont see it as being illegal or fraud. They see it as means to make it happen where all parties in their eyes, being them and the borrower have nothing to lose. The LO or Broker gets their commission and the borrower doesnt lose their rate lock if that should be the reasons for backdating. Thats my honest opinion on why you're not hearing from a particular audience. Its no secret even some of the most ethical people or companies have asked notaries to backdate.

Do I backdate? ABSOLUTELY NOT!! The buck stops here if asked to. Do I agree with them on their reasons for the request? NO.

JAN

2008

Hi Well I guess I am lucky. After 3 years as an active Notary Signing Agent I have not been approached to do this. I am well aware of the fact that it happens and it ONLY happens because there are Notaries out there willing to do anything for an extra buck. Shame on those of you that are backdating for that buck. You should save those extra bucks because these days there is a hefty fine on just about every crime, yes I said crime that a Notary commits. For us in California there is such thing as a 4 year statute of limitations. Meaning they have 4 years from the time of discovery of the fraud you committed, to charge you for it.

JAN

2008

Clarification: It is illegal to backdate a notary certificate - a document can have whatever date (not notary's concern).

JAN

2008

I just saw and read your post so of course, being a title company, I have to post a comment, otherwise I might be classified as one of those companies.

Backdating is illegal. I of course, don't do anything that is illegal. If I was that desperate for business, I would be giving Kickbacks. I will stretch the line but I will not go over it. What I find why the mortgage companies and lenders (yes, lenders too ask for you to backdate) want you to backdate, is they all wait until the end of the month to close their deals. Then it has to fund before the last day of the month in order for it to count and get paid. That's why end of the month is so hectic. People waiting until the very end to get things done.

So here's your 2nd title company comment.

JAN

2008

Hi Well I know it has nothing to do with your commission expiration. I said that now in the state of California it could be 20 years later. Once they really the crime has been committed they then have 4 years to punish you. Thanks, Maureen

JAN

2008

In Tennessee, violations of the notary laws is a Class C FELONY! Not to mention these are loan docs and come under Federal Laws also.

I have reported a company several years ago for asking me to back date--actually yelling at me, in the presence of an attorney, because I did not back date docs.

JAN

2008

Backdating is a major issue. I have been asked numerous times to backdate documents for a variety of reasons. But no matter what the reason is, my answer is always the same, "I am sorry, that is illegal and I can not accommodate your request." Sometimes they call me back to do the package anyway, sometimes they don't. I don't know who they are getting to do the backdating, but it saddens me that any notary would commit fraud just to make an extra buck.

JAN

2008

Title company response #3. Backdating bad. 30 year time-bomb!

JAN

2008

Ronald - I couldn't agree with you more! In fact, I wrote a blog myself about backdating entitled Backdating - why notaries must just say no! I have been asked to backdate many times - even by my favorite title companies - and once I say "no can do", they drop it. I've even been asked via e-mail to use the original date on a resigned DOT - so sometimes they even put their requests in writing!

JAN

2008

Integrity is important. I stood up to one of the biggest lenders because I would not compromise to illegal practices that were being requested. They stopped using my service for about 6 months after an flat out denial to back date a document.

FEB

2008

As an Escrow Officer in Oregon, we see quite of bit of "shady" activity. We're asked to do a lot of things and the question you should always ask yourself is, "Is it worth my job, my career, my freedom; to do this?". The answer is no! If you ever answer yes, you should probably look for a new profession. Thanks for bringing this topic up; it's nice to see someone verbalize the issue.

It is true that it is illegal to backdate a certificate but it is not the notary's concern what date is on the document. However if they date the documents while you are sitting there watching which in most cases you are it is illegal.

FEB

2008

Starting in 2008 (Calif) our penalty for falsifying an Acknowledgment can be subject to a civil penalty of up to $10,000 may be brought by the Sec of State in an administrative proceeding or by a public prosecutor in superior court.

Falsifying an acknowledgment is perjury.

If it involves property fraud it could be a felony. I am not a lawyer so this is just my opinion.

http://www.joanbergstromnotarypublic.com

FEB

2008

Thanks Lisa! Yes it is interesting so many have seen it & only ONE comment from a title co - not one mortgage person. I think that is sad. It almost seems like they do not care about fraud or its' ramifications! What I also do not understand, that is a representation of them, why would ANYONE want that as their representation - that is, why have someone that is willing to commit fraud be at the table representing them!

Believe me Lisa, I have no doubt some do not realize the ramifications or have even thought about the legalities of it, that is a lot about why I wrote this blog. It is funny, last weekend I saw several blogs about following rules & such, with LOTS of comments in a short time, over 20 on them in couple of days, yet eleven on mine in ten days, and only ONE title company, & no mortgage broker/LO. And like you said, LOTS of views, people ARE seeing this blog! (Actually the most viewed of all my blogs!) This pertains to state & federal laws, not just AR rules, or just rules in general, LAWS!! Sad to wonder, but how truly honest are these people? Thanks for your comments Lisa!! Have a great day!!!

Maureen & Barbara, thanks for stopping by. Maureen, it is actually more than 4 years in most states, and it is from the time of the action, not anything to do with commission expiration. Barbara, you are correct, but unfortunately many title companies ask for back-dating of the Jurat/Ack/etc. I get asked about 3-5 times every year, far too many! I would like FL and many other states to adopt CA laws which state to ASK for such a back-dating is illegal and CRIMINAL action. But so far only CA that I know of, has such a specific statute. Thanks Dawn for your comments!! That is one of the biggest and most common reason, and believe me, I've heard just about every excuse and reason why it is OK and allowed. However in reality, it is not stretching or anything, in FL, as I imagine most every state, it is not even slightly a grey matter, it is black & white, clearly fraud on the part of the notary to do this, yet clearly many do it. Probably about 3-5 time a year, I get asked, when I say, absolutely not, they say good bye. That leaves no doubt in my mind what they are doing - going to find someone else willing to commit the fraud I am not willing to do. Sad, but reality! It just bothers me greatly, because as a Notary Public, part of our responsibilities, is that we take an oath to serve & protect the public in our respective states, and doing this goes against that oath & responsibility!

Mary, Thanks for stopping by! In FL, it is also 3rd Degree Felony, but only one state that I know of - CA - it is criminal (I think Misdemeanor) to even ASK the notary to do this. I wish ALL states would adopt this, and I would report it as well!! I've only been able to get enough information to report one violation of this, although I get asked once every two to three months. Usually they don't give me enough info to report the violation. I had one in July, and I'm still trying to track that down though, because I got the borrower's phone number from caller ID, but no name, as he called me, and asked me to do the back-dating as well. I told him it was a felony and would not! If I can ever find the recorded document on that date, and cross-reference the phone number, I'll report it, but so far I have been unable to get all necessary info.

BTW, that is pretty arrogant to ask in FRONT of an attorney, yikes!

Laura, Tom, Linda, Ntsike, Elizabeth, Christy & Joan, thanks for stopping by! Laura, I am certain they get someone else willing to commit the fraud, but not me. It IS a shame!! Tom, certainly right!!! Linda, there have been a couple of us, and the more we get the word out, the more that follow the law, the better! Ntsike, integrity IS very important, and to be honest, I want all the business I can get EXCEPT bad and illegal business! That is NOT worth it! Elizabeth, I could not agree more! Christy, to the best of my knowledge, there is nothing illegal about any of the dates on the document or date signed EXCEPT the date the notary says acknowledged / sworn to / before me / etc., as if that states anything other than the actual date, it is a crime in most, if not all states. I know in FL, that is a 3rd degree felony. Joan, I'm thrilled with your states enforcement on the whole subject! As far as I know your state is the only state where the person ASKING a notary to do it is a misdemeanor crime. I know actually back-dating in FL is a 3rd degree felony, and I thought it was in CA as well, but not sure. Most, if not all states, to actually do the back-dating is a crime, because it IS fraud!

Again, thanks everyone for stopping by!

MAR

2008

Here's a response from a title/escrow company. The previous company I worked for had some very strict requirements. We were not allowed to have ANYONE except for a duly licensed title/escrow company notarize ANY of our documents. In addition, the other company had to provide us with evidence of who they were, a copy of the notary license, etc. Why? Because it was a precautionary measure as we were the ones providing title insurance. What if the documents were sent from Nevada to say, for example, California for a signing? And the documents were forged in California? We as a title/escrow company would have no recourse as we are insuring clear title, therefore we would open ourselves up to a possilbe future claim.

As far as back dating, not a chance. Upper management made it very clear that it would be cause for instant termination.

MAR

2008

Here is a comment from a Signing Service.

I have quit working for Title Companies that have asked me to backdate. Like everyone has stated before me, Its imoral and unethical as far as I am concerned.

Anthony J Negrete

www.negretesnotaries.com

MAR

2008

Ronald,

A very profitable client parted relations with our company over this very issue. We've been working for this mortgage firm for well over 3 years and one day we got a call and ask about our availability for a closing. Naturally we said yes, since we at a minimum would charge $250 and conduct the closing at a time mutually convenient with the client.

On this one occasion there was a twist, they need to show the document closed yesterday! Well that was a big issue since we are going to sign today. Believe it or not they had instructed the client that it would be okay, that is what they told me on the phone.

Respectfully, I had to say, that is not possible. And like you suggested, they assured me it was okay. We haven’t had a lick of business from them since and this was a client good for 8 –10 closing monthly.

Right is right and integrity is a notaries calling card. There is never a reason to back date documents!

Just a thought!

If I am a white-collar criminal looking to commit mortgage fraud, I know I’ll need the services of a notary public on my team.

I just can go and advertise I need a crooked notary, that wouldn’t make sense. However, I could recruit and see if I could find a notary that would back date documents. This would give me candidates who don’t know the rules of being a notary (I don’t believe that), or some on who don’t respect the responsibility of being a notary (now I believe that).

Once I got you back dating document, then I groom you into more notorious acts, always for money of course. Within a relative short amount of time, I’m got a crooked notary in my pocket to use and abuse, all for that all mighty dollar. I can perpetuate all kinds of fraud now!

And it all started with one simple act of back dating documents, something thought to be innocent but illegal. What a waste of talent!

MAR

2008

Cheryl, thanks for the comment! I like that company policy - immediate termination! Awesome, more should have THAT integrity! Anthony, thanks for stopping by! Plain & simple, it is fraud and illegal, but it is amazing & sad how many ask for it, then move on when I refuse - you know somebody agreed to it when they do not call back. F-A-N/N-A-N you are ABSOLUTELY right. Integrity IS supposed to be our most important characteristic, as we take an OATH to serve & protect the integrity of each notarization transaction. How is that possible if we are committing fraud ourselves? Obviously not!! I heard a saying, those that commit back-dating don't know what they are doing, or don't care - how true!! If you are a notary back-dating - which are you? As said many times above, Florida & most if not all states say this is illegal - PERIOD with NO loopholes, NO exceptions, NO MATTER WHAT!!!

Ronald,

I hope and trust that this blog posting gets wide circulation among notaries to put closure as to the legality of the practice of back dating of documents. I appreciate your posts relative to integrity.

Ntsike from NAN

Ntisike, your welcome, it is important to me, and I think many don't realize the importance of the issue. What still amazes me is this is one of my most viewed & clicked blogs, and yet only 31 comments. And VERY few title companies. I commend the ones that take a stand, and am disappointed by the many that don't. I REALLY like Cheryl's company policy - immediate termination - and that is for good reason! Thanks again!!

APR

2008

Kudos on your post! I think this is something that needs to be addressed. It's like the dirty little secret in the family. I have never and will never backdate. Its not worth losing my commission, my job, go to jail, etc. to do that.

I think for the most part people (customers) understand, unfortunately its the "professionals" who like to push the issue.

APR

2008

In Tennessee it is a Class C felony for notaries to dis-obey the notary laws. Not mention when doing this on a loan the Federal Laws that come into play.

I just ask them, 'And while I sit in prison, are you going to support my children?'

They either fix it or get someone else.

There lies another problem--the fact that notaries are willing to backdate docs.

NEVER THIS ONE!

JUN

2008

One of the purposes of a notary (in CA) is to affirm and swear that before that person on THIS DAY WAS SIGNED, blah, blah. You could get your license yanked and be prosecuted.

On the other hand, back-dating a purchase contract to correct conditions or terms is permissible. So, I believe you are talking about two different things or perhaps should be.

P. S. I kinda doubt you're going to hear from mortgage brokers or title companies that will rally around breaking the law.

Liisa, unfortunately I must agree. Thanks for stopping by! Mary Ellen, in most, if not all states it is a felony to back date. Only in the state of CA that I am aware of, it is illegal to ASK that a notarization be back-dated. I wish all states would adopt the asking part of CA's law! Elizabeth, the date of the document is irrelevant. I notarized a document that had dates years in the past, that is OK, but when stated 'acknowledged this date' or 'sworn to and subscribed to this such & such date' it MUST say today's date (whatever that is) and it is unfortunate, but so many title companies and mortgage brokers ask for this to be back-dated. In FL, if not all states, it is a felony to do that in ALL circumstances - NO LOOPHOLES - NO EXCEPTIONS. For example, I did a signing one day on a Friday, and discovered an error in their paperwork. I pointed it out to the signing company, and they told me how to handle the situation. After complying, some of the returned package was rejected and they wanted me to return the following Monday with the same docs (Friday's date) AND back-date the notarization. As just explained, the date of the documents of the past Friday is perfectly fine and no problem whatsoever. BUT to state that these RE-signed documents on Monday were done on Friday IS ILLEGAL - again, NO LOOPHOLES IN THE EYES OF FL (and probably most if not all states) AS THIS WOULD BE FRAUD AND ILLEGAL TO SAY IT OCCURRED ON FRIDAY WHEN IT NOW OCCURRED ON MONDAY. I hope that clarifies the situation. BTW, I wouldn't necessarily expect them to rally around breaking the law (would hope not anyway), but I would have expected more to stand up and speak out about illegal practices, even if they only wrote a private email to me - but NONE? Very sad I feel. Thanks also for stopping by!

JUN

2008

Hi Ronald,

I have found several posts above from title folks who are opposed to illegal practices, backdating included. Is that what you were referring to when you said "but none? Very sad I feel? I read most of this thread a while back and the last few posts just now. Unless I missed the gist, add me to the list. Backdating is wrong. There is always a better solution, even if it may cost someone a few bucks.

JUL

2008

I still cannot believe in this day and age with all of the mortgage fraud issues here in Florida and the close scrutiny of the government, people still have the gall to ask notaries and title companies to engage in illegal activities such as backdating and even forgery. You should stand by your convictions and do things to the letter of the law, integrity is an important value, and at the end of the day you know you did your job right.

JUL

It IS amazing how many Loan Brokers/Loan Officers want the Notary to back date. However they usually will only ask if it is month end and a refinance transaction due to the 3 day right of recission. SO any docs that are dated between today and Sunday, come Monday they will be begging notaries to back date so it can close by month end. I had a LO ask me today if a borrower can "waive" the 3 days. I told them if it is an Investment property, then there isn't a 3 day. To top it off this refi has been open for FIVE months! Now they're in a hurry to close? But then again why would a Loan Broker ask Escrow? If they really knew what they were doing, they would be asking the Lender they brokered the loan to. Duh! I have yet to encounter a Title Company requesting back dating.

I hate to say this but I have lost count as to how many times I have referred a Loan person in the same class as a Car Salesman. Anything for a buck and only looking after their own wallet. *lol*

JUL

Patrick, I am referring to very few title companies, and NO mortgage companies/brokers/loan officers, etc. You make the sixth title company to stand up against the practice, but still not one mortgage company person. A few, especially inexperienced ones, may not realize it is illegal, or why it is illegal. (BTW, that is also why I mentioned in the blog, if anyone wanted to send me a private message to speak up against the practice, but no one did that either) Also, most know it and seem to just turn the other cheek, not care or something, which I find sad that none will speak up against breaking the law, as you said, even if it meant spending a few more dollars redoing the package. I realize some may be just trying to get it in before the EOM for their numbers, but it is not always EOM playing into the picture, as the example I addressed just above, happened where either signing Friday or Monday would not effect EOM. James, it is hard to believe these days, like you said, especially with all the mortgage troubles these days! Don't worry, I refuse, and when I have sufficient documentation, I report it as well. I just wish FL and other states would adopt CA's law that ASKING a notary to back-date is illegal as well. CA is the only state that I know of that specifically makes this illegal! Nancy, I realize many want it done for EOM, but also, like you said, there is so much 'hurry up and wait'!!! Not all LO/Brokers are as bad as used car salesperson, but I certainly know your pain and why you say that! BTW, it is also escrow companies that ask for back-dating, not just escrow, but of course, it doesn't matter who or why, it is illegal, and it is illegal for a reason! Good one at that, it is fraud, plain and simple! And like several said, in this day and age with all the mortgage problems as they are, it is even more crazy than normal to do it!!! Thanks for stopping by!

BTW, Lisa Kimmel, if your still watching this blog -

39 Comments

1148 Views

653 Clicks

8 Title Companies have stood up against the practice, and STILL NOT ONE mortgage company/broker/loan officer, banker, etc., has spoken publicly on this blog OR privately as I have mentioned several times - like in private email. Very, VERY sad I think!

AUG

I'm late to the party on this blog, but I'm new to AR and saw it in your repost. I own a mortgage brokerage in Northern California and can tell you that in my 14 years in the business this has always been nothing less than fraud. I have heard many in the business claim that nobody gets hurt so it's no big deal. Not to sound like the guys that never rolls through the stop sign, but IT'S ILLEGAL. So what's the worst that could happen you say? Let's not forget that the borrower knows and if smart can most likely prove that that doc set is invalid. An invalid and fraudulent doc set can be rescinded long after your three little days...years after as a matter of law. Buy the borrowers loan to shave a day from close of escrow? No thanks, not a value proposition.

AUG

Scott, *(%#*_& CRASH (*(P_K&% BANG ^*%$&( hold on second, I just fell on the floor - THANKS Scott for speaking up!! I actually never even thought about that, as I always looked at it from the fraud aspect, but you bring up a great point! If those doc's become invalid, the lender could have a huge issue if there is a default! As I said, GREAT point! Thanks again for stopping by & commenting - 8 title co & ONE mortgage broker finally!!

I'm new to a|r as well. The notary date should always be the day it is notarized - otherwise the notary is probably violating the law.

My never ending frustration with this issue is two fold. First, no one seems to understand that the instrument date and the signing date don't have to be the same. Further, the instrument is not valid until it is "delivered" and consideration is exchanged - Practical definitions - the Borrower is paid the loan proceeds or the Seller is paid the sale proceeds. Documents can be dated one day and effective on another. Its done in commercial transactions all the time. The only date issue is that the deed needs to be dated on or before the date of the mortgage of you may have a chain of title problem.

My bigger frustration is the hypocracy of it all. We're a table funding area - not escrow. We routinely close one day but can't fund until the following day, or week because the wire isn't sent or a cut off time is missed. Yet, no dates are changed, the borrower still ends up paying interest from the the closing day even though they do not have use of the money until later. The people who want you to back date never have a problem with that.

Regards, John Bethell

If only there were more people not willing to break the law or commit fraud. Kudos to you for not agreeing with it!

AUG

It's a tangled web of violations of state and Federal laws, starting with notarial fraud and including mortgage fraud, often a shortened rescission Reg Z violation), mail fraud (if you ship those back-dated docs via overnight courier!), wire fraud (if that mortgage is funded via wire, as MOST are!), and ALL IT TAKES to untangle that web is this ...

Borrower goes to a dinner party the next week, next month, next year ... or gets in financial distress ... strikes up a conversation with an attorney. I can't tell you how many 'Monday morning' lawsuits I was privy to (when I worked inside lending) that were the result of a borrower's casual conversation with some attorney at a party on Friday ...

Borrowers aren't told it's a criminal act - they're given the same snow job that naive (or ?) notaries are given. "Their rate will expire, they'll lose the loan, everyone does it, it doesn't hurt anyone, it's no big deal!" The NUMBER ONE REASON anyone wants a loan back-dated is so the loan will still fund inside that particular month, and the LOAN OFFICER'S paycheck will reflect it THEN instead of the following paycheck. Now, this isn't what you're told when you're asked if you'll back-date - no, it's almost always presented as if you're doing some really wonderful, life-saving act on behalf of some poor borrower who's really in a jam. Emotional engagement. You get to be Wonder-Notary to the rescue.

Who's going to come to your rescue when that bus you VOLUNTEERED to crawl under, starts to move forward?!

John, like you, I said the dates of the documents does not matter in my Feb '08 comments, and I know like you said, the date listed is irrelevant, BUT, like we all said, when you as a notary say, 'Acknowledged' or 'Sworn to' this ## day of .... if that number is not today - THEN ILLEGAL, PERIOD! Kindra, not only do I not agree, if I have enough info to report it, it gets reported with all supporting documentation. I do not and will not tolerate it. Renee, like everyone stated, in their own way, but you said so great - you VOLUNTEERED to get under that bus! And you just don't know when that bus will start moving, and when it does, your STUCK there!

AUG

Hi Ron,

Yes, Im still watching this blog off and on. Its getting amazing attention and I believe the communication on this will be a good thing.

Someones point of view I would like to hear though on this subject, is Ed Rybczynski(Im not even going to try and pronounce that!) who I have a great deal of respect for. He is on a quest to educate others on mortgage fraud and why its wrong, wrong, wrong. I salute his efforts and dedication.

Ed are you out there? What are your thoughts on this?

SEP

Lisa, I look forward to Ed's comments. I FINALLY had a mortgage broker comment - Scott!!! Still though, all these Mortgage Brokers/companies/ LO's and title companies, and only the one mortgage broker and eight title companies - I think that is sad!

SEP

Back dating is absolutely wrong. It is just as wrong as a NOTARY witnessing the persons signature in their absence.

Mott Marvin Kornicki

Licensed Real Estate Broker

Florida Notary Public, South Florida

SEP

I have been asked to backdate notary documents that have nothing do with loan docs and for whatever reason these people want a back date on the Ack or Jurat?'t bother to ask why? I just say no.

SEP

Mott, in Florida, as well as most states, it is a felony because it is fraud. Many don't understand the seriousness or don't care. Either way, that is not good! Joan, to the best of my recollection, I can't remember anyone asking for back-dating other than for mortgages, but it wouldn't surprise me. Some people just don't realize the seriousness and that it is fraud. But title co's & mortgage brokers know, or should know that, and shouldn't request the back-dating.

Thanks for stopping by!

FEB

I was a title agent for over 20 years and we were never allowed to perform closings with documents DATED prior to the date of execution of the documents. I was requested recently to witness signatures as a signing agent on a loan package dated one day before the actual signature. They would allow me to notarize the documents showing the actual day of signing in the acknowledgment and I refused. I had problems also because the dates were missing from the HUD One and the Right to Cancel documents. I said that I would feel better if the borrowers were allowed to place the date they signed next to the signatures on the mortgage which were on the last page of text in the mortgage. Barring that, I requested that I be able to change the mortgage date to the actual date of signing. This created a big problem and the signing agency was getting mad because I would not cooperate with them. I don't think a notary should be filling in documents. What a lot of notaries don't understand is that the standard acknowledgement as a notarial act does not act as proof that any document was signed on the date of the acknowledgement. It is merely a proof that the signer has shown incontrovertible evidence that he or she did sign the document. That is why a person can sign a document prior to the time it is presented to the notary as long as that person can prove to the notary that he or she signed it. If the language says sworn and subscribed that is different. The notary public has to actually witness the signature, further if it says this day anywhere in the clause the notary must witness the signature. To cut to the chase, the standard notary acknowledgement on a mortgage does not say that the document was signed on the day it was notarized and it is not proof that the person signed on the acknowledgment date. I felt uncomfortable acting as a signing agent on the loan for these reasons. I brought the subject up on a notary forum and all of those responding told me I was wrong. I may be slicing hairs here, but what do I tell a person who does not want to sign a document dated one day before they actually sign it? To me, a person who does not sign a document on the date of the document should be allowed to state on the document the actual date of signature and the mortgage companies won't allow this. I don't know if it is legal or not, but best case it is deceptive and I really don't want to be a part of that. I know that multiple signers in different locations can be different, but if I present documents to be signed as a part of my employment, I would prefer that the dates match the date they were actually signed.

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