Kandra - Thanks for the article. I will check it out.

Ann - You are lucky that you do not come across them that often.  My last three that I have done are what led me to write this.

TLW - I understand what you are saying about keeping jobs separate, but I feel that these two are mutually exclusive.  If I was a realtor and mortgage broker for the same person, then yes you are correct... who is watching out for the client.  In this case being a NSA, I am a 3rd party (and paid as a third party with a fixed fee charged by the title company who opts to use me - I do not get to charge a fee, they tell me what they will pay) hired out to do nothing more than to witness a signature.  It is completely separate from my mortage business.  One does not benefit off the other.  State law also prohibits me from using one for the other (IE I cannot close my loans under my notary seal). 

Angela - It is difficult at times, but I manage.

Brian - I read the post that you are mentioning twice now...  I do not believe that this would fall under his definitions.  I did not mention the brokers or companies that did these loans.  Nor, am I suggesting a boycott to these entities.

I did mention that I have seen excessive fees.  Now I do agree that there are times where higher fees are needed (IE more difficult loans), but in the case mentioned above this was not the case. (I have done enough loans and closings to know what programs are what and what would be a fair fee for those types of loans).  And in this one case, the person was overcharged by what I would consider normal standards (however, the borrower did enter into a negotiated agreement of his/her own free will and therefore he/she felt that that price was fair).

Commissions - I am aware of what I am allowed to charge under Florida Statute and Section 32.  I will not have to worry about reaching these limits.

Antitrust - No where in my statement did I mention a boycott or an agreement to fix prices, enter into collusion with a competitor, or any other means there of.

Also, to quote your own words from Caleb's post:

"I don't think that discussing (or advertising) commission amounts is any problem as it related to price fixing or anti-competition..  I think coercing everyone to "set" a price is anti-competitive.  I realy don't see any problems on ActiveRain with that.

Being publicly critical of an independent Realtor is perfectly fine, INASMUCH AS IT RELATES to service, profesionalism, or reputation.  Publicly slandering a company and/or Realtor is scary because it opens you up to libel.  Organizing a "boycott" of a partiular Realtor or company because of service is one thing.

Now, Organizing a boycott, or discussing a "scheme" to boycott discounters id flat out price-fixing.  Complaining about them and wishing they'd go away is an expression of opinion.

I enjoyed this post because we are approaching uncharted territory here."

George - I won't disagree with the conflicts, but I would rather them be internal conflicts than external, which could lead to future problems.  Plus, it is helps to have a wife that is willing to let you vent when you see these situations.

Marc - I bet you could keep your mouth closed up until they sign the first page.  :)

Brian,

I would love to share what I believe to be is fair pricing, but then one would argue that by my mentioning of what I believe to be fair pricing would be an attempt to set standardized pricing (a violation of antitrust).  Plus, as I stated above, the client willingly entered into contract for the closing costs that were charged.  The client felt those fees where fair.  It would be like me selling a first edition Batman Dective Comics 52 to someone for a $100,000.  To most people this is a ripoff, but to the person buying it, it is well worth the cost.

Charles - It is hard to stomach when you see someone take advantage of a person's ignorance.  Granted it is a consumer beware world that we are in.  With the technology that is out there, they could have shopped it around to see if they really were getting the best deal.

Brian - You can "assume" all you want.  You can also charge what you want.  You can do whatever you want when it comes to your clients.  I have my own set of standards and practices.  If I see someone entering into a loan that is outside of my standards and practices, then I feel as though that person is being taken advantage of.  That is not to say that someone may say the same about my standards and practices versus their standards and practices.  Obviously, you are under the impression that this was a subjective blog; whereby, I was trying to state that what I say is true for everyone.  However, this was more of an objective blog expressing my own opinions of what I have seen and an attempt to get fellow bloggers to comment on what they would do if presented the same situation of seeing a loan close that they felt was not in the best interest of a borrower and being allowed to voice their concern.  Now, if your standards say 4 points on a conforming loan is ok, then what if you saw 5 or 6 or even 7 points being charged?  The number of points is irrelevant.  The fact that you or I feel someone is being taken advantage is the heart of the matter.  What would you do?

First, I applogize.  I typed too fast and got the Subjective and Objective backwards.  This blog was an expression of my own feelings, and thus is subjective.  Just as most anyone elses posts are in AR.

Second, for someone that claims to have closed over 1500 loans, you obviously are not aware of the paperwork that is provided to a NSA or a title company.  Although the exact paperwork that you described is not provided, supplemental information that supports those items are.  I can see the appraised value, I can see the property (I am in their house).  I see the credit scores that were used to determine the pricing on the loan.  I can look on the 1003 that is provided to determine the incomes used (or not used) and the debts included with the loan (this includes collections and judgements, if the broker did their job right).  Plus, if there are any judgements or collections that are required to be paid at closing, they would be included with the closing instrucitons provided by the lender. With quick calculations, I can get the DTI and LTV.  There is enough information provided in a closing package where I can see the whole picture (at least the picture that is provided by the lender).

Third, I am also a mortgage broker.  I know what is considered an easy deal and a difficult deal.  And no, I have not positioned myself as a pricing expert.  I am merely stating a matter of opinion.  Just like you say in many of your posts and comments that there are bad loan officers and that you help those that have been taken advantage of.  Let me turn the tables... how do you know they were taken advantange of?  You did not see the original paperwork that was provided to the bank for the original loan, you have hearsay from the borrower who thinks he got taken, so you feel your client got taken.  I at least get to see the current loan documents.  I have a better basis of knowing the whole story.

And if my appearing to be an "avenging angel" puts a sour taste in your mouth becuase I am an ethical broker, then my question is what are you hiding?  No one else has taken offense to the fact that in the one case that I mentioned (which you do not even know the details of the transaction to be) a fee to be excessive in my eyes.  You almost seem like you are trying to defend yourself for something.  I also find it odd that the 4 or 5 posts that you listed last month about standard origination fees charged in select states (NJ, NY, FL, CA, etc) based on a certain loan amount assuming fixed third party fees of $1000 have mysteriously disappeared.  From what I remember of those, one could argue that you were making yourself an expert on fees.  Now, you are withdrawing them from the view of others?  Why, to proctect yourself from what?  Me?  Believe me, I mean no harm to you or any other loan originator out there.  There is enough business to go around for all of us.  Plus, I am on the other side of the nation.  I kind of find it flattering that my ethics scare you.  Thank you.

Now as a couresty, I ask that you stop responding to this post and let those that have a comment about being in a situation where they feel a client is being taken advantage of and not being able to help post their opinion of what they would do.  If you respond again, I will report your comments to the adiminstrators of AR.

Brian - What makes you an expert?  Your years in the industry? The number of loans you closed?  I too have been commited to the industry since I was 21 and I have closed many a loan myself (never kept count, and no reason to.)  The only reason I took on th NSA was because it was a way that I could see what my competitors where doing.  I could care less about the money.  The only reason I collect the money is because the position requires that fee bee charged and they NNA (National Notary Association) has set a min. fee to be charged.

As for your posts, they were not there when I typed the message.  Perhaps it was due to the system being down and not all information was replaced, yet.  My appologies.

Jeff - I am aware that different states have different requirements.  I am only talking about the state of Florida.

As for the extreme number that you claim I see.  I never said it was extreme amount in terms of percentage to total loans closed.  I only said my last 3 were what led me to write this.  I never said all or most.  I never even gave you a number as to how many I have seen.  "I have seen too many closings now where I had to bite my tongue" - for me 3 is too many especially when they come back to back.

Now ,you guys want to know the facts and stop assuming that I don't know what I am talking about.  The client that got "taken" just happened to have a low 800 credit score.  (kind of impossible if he had a 30+day late and the credit score reflected such, because if it was an EA LEver 1 or better, the rate would have been higher the rate was a 6.25%).  His LTV was below 60%.  The lender was an A Paper lender.  There was no appraisal because he got an appraisal waiver (according to the HUD-1). Here is the rest of the story, the borrower was in a balloon mortgage that was set to balloon in less than 2 weeks.  Throw in the 3 day right of recission, he had one week to close.  (He told me his whole story while we were going over the paperwork).  When we went over the fees, he himself said that he knew he was paying too much, but had no choice because this was the first broker that brought him to closing, and he did not want to risk waiting for the others that he applied to.  As I sated above, the borrower willingly entered into the agreement with this person, as well as others.  As for the saving him, I knew that with one of my lenders I could close in less than 48 hours and charge him much less.  The fact is the client is the one who said he gotten taken, and I had to agree based on what was presented to me by the lender and his story backing up what was on the documents.

To answer Mr. Brady's question, if you really myust have it, yes I feel the 4 points on a conforming 30 yrs fixed mortgage is excessive.  I have yet to charge a client that much for that program, and I never will.  If you feel that 4 points is ok to charge, by all means, do it.

TLW - I still agree that a person holding too many hats in the same transaction is bad for the client.  As I stated above, I do this merely as a way to see what the competition is doing.

Back to Jeff  - My services of NSA are done after hours.  I typically do the closings at the clients house around 9:00 PM.  This is because I, too, am busy during the day.  And, I still beg to differ with you on the paperwork.  There is enough information in a closing package to where I can make an educated decision on if the person was treated fairly.  Plus, the clients talk.  I am not allowed to say certain things at the closing, but nothing says I can't listen to their story.

George - thank you for reading the blog the way it was meant to be read... handling an internal conflict where you cannot do anything about it when it arises.

Jeff - The example I gave is the story of the one that Mr. Brady was addressing, regarding points being charged.  It was not an example it was what really happened.  The other 2 situations were a bait and switch (which you said you agree with) and another situation where it was evident that the person was being taken advantage of becuase of the situation at hand.  You are using my 3 sitatuation to define it as a whole.  I never said that this was always.  Based on the information that was provided (both by the lender and borrower), I could tell that the person was being taken advantage of. 

Yes, if the credit score was in the 500s or 600s, I would not know the exact credit history.  But I never said that this was the case for these three loans.  You assumed.  Could I have closed loans where the scores were such and the person be taken advantage of, and I not know it?  Yes.  In the 3 that I mentioned that
I closed, they were blatant, slap you in the face.  These are the ones that I want to help.   And I never said loans were underwritten just based on credit scores. 

Now, you keep bring up the fact that I am making judgements without knowing all the facts.  Is this not true with you right now?  You do not know all the facts surrounding the 3 situations.  I am sure that if you were present at these closings and had the facts that were presented, you too would agree that this was the case (that the client was being "taken".)  Had it been any other notary or closing agent, it may not have been as evident because they may not have the knowledge that we have when it comes to the mortgage industry itself.

I am not here to point fingers.  I am not here to state facts on this situation.  If you would like, I will post a blog about the facts surrounding a NSA and closings.  This post was merely a matter of opinion from my point of view.  It was meant to get opinions of a personal matter on how one would handle internal conflict.  Both you and Brian have turned this into more than what it is meant to be.  As for questioning my ethics and trying to slander me by saying I am not professional, I believe I have been very professional in this matter.  I take my job very seriously and I value every one of my clients as though they were family.  As for ethics, I would love for you to meet me, so you can see just how ethical I really am.  My wife tells me that I am too ethical for this job.

Now agree with Brian.  This is Sunday.  And Brian... I did answer your question to the charges.  I also know what Section 32 does allow for.  This post was not meant to discuss pricing issues.  And in Florida one can actually charge more than Section 32, but the most of the lenders cap us at 5% total costs (Lender plus broker).

Jeff - I am not skating around your question.  I answered your question with the scenario that was at hand.  You changed the question to reflect a lower credit score.  I did address that, too, now.  As for you saying my taking this position as BS, in a town as small as I live in, my biggest competitor is the internet.  My nearest competitor is about 15 miles away.  Sure we get together to talk from time to time, but we never really get to see what the rest of the world is doing.  This is just a way for me to broaden my perspective of what is going on outside my area.  And I am so sorry that you think everything has to do with money.  There is more out there to life than just money.

Ted,

This one did go back and forth for quite some time and got pretty ugly for awhile.  However, things did work out in the end.  Jeff, Brian and myself all hold each other in high regards for what we do.

As an FYI... After I wrote this post, I stopped doing the mobile/afterhour closings.