Real Estate Blog - Is it Condoning Racism to Ignore It? It's Time to Speak Out on Fair Housing Laws and Issues!

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Is it Condoning Racism to Ignore It? It's Time to Speak Out on Fair Housing Laws and Issues!

The inspiration for this post came from another by Charles McDonald, who contributed "Why is my Agent so Vague?" yesterday. Charles wrote on an extremely important topic, Fair Housing Laws and the importance of complying with them.

I urge you to read Charles' post and to pay particular attention to the comments that were contributed by Active Rain members!

A few weeks ago, I read another blog post by another agent on Active Rain who wrote that she'd been approached by a client and asked to provide information which would violate Fair Housing Laws. She was asked "Is this a mixed neighborhood?" and she chose to change the subject, rather than confront the person making the request. The comments on her post were about the choices that agents make when we encounter these situations.

What kind of choices would you make if you were asked to violate Fair Housing Laws?

Are you willing to "walk the talk" when it comes to Fair Housing and anti-discrimination issues?

Would you try to educate the public or other agents about the need to observe and comply with Fair Housing statutes?
If a consumer (or another licensee) asked you to violate Fair Housing Laws, would you go along with that request?
If a person asked you to violate Fair Housing Laws, would you report that individual to the appropriate authorities, including HUD?

Agents need to be reminded from time to time about the importance of anti-discrimination laws, including State and Federal Fair Housing laws. Here is a brief list of resources for anyone who may wish to inquire about or report an incident which may be a violation:

http://www5.hud.gov:63001/po/i/netlocator/ This is the website for the HUD Local Office Directory. The various jurisdictions covered by the Department of Housing and Urban Development are divided into ten regions, with each region supervised by a Regional Director. Field offices also operate throughout the United States.

http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cid/civilrights/civilrts.htm The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) also encourages individuals to report Civil Rights violations, including those dealing with consumer issues such as real estate.

http://www.aclu.org/about/index.html The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) takes an interest in cases where individuals have concerns about discrimination.

The following organizations also take a great deal of interest in acts of Discrimination:

http://www.naacp.org/home/index.htm The NAACP is actively involved in Civil Rights legislation and litigation.

http://www.adl.org/main_about_adl.asp The Anti-Defamation League has been active in combating anti-Semitism and bigotry of all kinds for over 90 years.

http://www.nclr.org/section/about/ The National Council of La Raza (NCLR) is the largest Hispanic Civil Rights and advocacy group in the United States.

The above is by no means a complete list of resources. There are many state and national organizations ready to assist consumers of all nationalities and backgrounds with questions or complaints about discrimination.

Posted by Eric Kodner, Lake Minnetonka Homes & Madeline Island Real Estate on 09/11/2007 07:03 PM

Comments (86)

hud, fair housing, antidefamation, discrimination, racism, aclu, naacp, nclr

Post is included in group: LGBT Referrals
Post is included in group: African American Realtors
Post is included in group: Wrong Right Turn

86 Comments on Is it Condoning Racism to Ignore It? It's Time to Speak Out on Fair Housing Laws and Issues!

SEP

2007

Eric, This is such an important subject that we all need to be sure we are educated about.

This is not a "fun" issue or a "popular" issue but it is about the most important issue that Real Estate agents need to be 100% familiar with. If you are not abiding by FH Laws, you are just asking for a lawsuit!

Why are we not seeing posts from other agents about Fair Housing?

Sometimes Real Estate Agents are not represented well in the media. This is an area that we need to all speak out on! Fair Housing is for everyone and it starts with excellent Agents that know the Law!

Charles, I was delighted to read your post yesterday on this subject. I see your post received around 90 comments, which was well-deserved. Actually I'm surprised more agents didn't weigh in on the subject of Fair Housing.

And, as always, there are a few who will disagree with Fair Housing laws, who will dismiss them as "PC" or whatever. I thought you handled those few who made negative comments with class and style.

Every agent on Active Rain who works with minority clients (or who hopes to work with them in the future) should be expressing their opinion on the topic of housing discrimination. The public wants to know if we're willing to "walk the talk" when it comes to Fair Housing issues!

Eric Great post! Eric this is a great topic for real estate discussion and Equal Housing professionalism here on Active Rain! Fair Housing is a real everyday topic in real estate. It is not a subject to be danced around with a wink and a nod, but rather one that must be understood from the perspective of Federal Law, State and Local Laws, ethics, and civil obligation. What makes our country great is that we are all invited to participate in the American Dream and as citizens and upholders of that Freedom we must protect that as valiantly as our Patriot fathers did to form this great country! Anyone that does not regognize this in the real estate community is not worthy to be on our team.

Thank you Jim! I agree that the subject of Fair Housing isn't something to be danced around. Did you get a chance to read Charles McDonald's excellent post on this subject yesterday?

One AR member who commented on Charles' post wrote that he doesn't "give a rip" about Fair Housing laws. He claimed that there are "many agents out there who will turn a blind eye toward the Fair Housing Act and this isn't necessarily a bad thing". He boasted about having worked with an agent in his area who violated Fair Housing Law and disclosed to him information about the "ethnic makeup" of a particular neighborhood when he was looking for a home to buy!

Probably the most ridiculous statements this guy made was his comment that "my family's safety is more important than kissing HUD's a**".

Fortunately, these comments weren't made by a real estate licensee, but they're no less offensive, regardless of who wrote them.

I read and commented on this blog yesterday... keep it fair folks...

You know, we wouldn't need crap like Federal Fair Housing laws if we could all behave in a colorblind/religionblind/ageblind/familyblind manner.

But I personally get very irritated that I can't fully help folks who are moving to my area blind. I HATE having to be vague. I can't blame anyone at all for wanting to live near others who are like them (and folks, that question crosses all barriers), but legally I can't answer those questions. If I were moving to Germany, you can bet your sweet bippy that I'd be asking where other English-speakers lived. Wonder if they could tell me?

A family's safety has nothing to do with the ethnicity the neighbors. I purchased my first home in a city neighborhood "in transition". I didn't have a single neighbor who spoke English as their native language and I will tell you that it was the finest neighborhood I have lived in YET (I own house #3 since then and live in a more typical suburban neighborhood). I learned how to landscape my yard from an elderly Japanese neighbor that didn't speak one work of English. He was a genius with plants and he simply demonstrated what I was to do. At that time I was still single, so when the police raided the crack house two blocks away (not kidding, and that house was the ONLY bad "neighbor"), the young Hispanic couple came over to make sure that I was safe. I could go on and on with stories of the of the caring and sense community in that ethnically diverse neighborhood. I learned first hand that we must be extremely careful of painting generalities with a broad stroke.

Eric I read that blog and thought both of them were fantastic. Interesting and straight to the point. The comments were offensive and cannot be tolerated.

These issues have been with us for a long time and the law is very clear. We do not have to be vague, we have to tell them how to find the information without violating Fair Housing. The information is available in a number of ways which can be provided. Nice post.

Eric,

Thanks for brining this post to my attention. It is an important topic and yet one that we all tred lightly with. It is just too easy to cross into the gray area and over the line...which is not always well defined.

I believe in euality for all, and I also believe in our right to have our own opinions on various topics. I know I have inadvertedly crossed the line and care not to go there again.

John

I try to help people by giving them the public school test scores which are published. It will say a lot about a neighborhood without having to say anything. If you live in area area of racial tension people are interested in areas that are safe and will appreciate in the future. The numbers do have a racial aspect to them. When your life is at stake it is improtant to look at all the stats. There are going to be some agents that step over the line but most are educated and well aware of what they can and cannot do. The races in New Orleans do not mix well in social settings, schools, on the job, but housing works the best.

I'm not so sure that the questioning person got a fair treatment from all of you. You threatened to "out" him as some sort of racist for coercing a licensee to give him information that violated the FHA. I think he asked questions that cross many consumers' minds (schools, safety, etc)

Admittedly, the questioner's smug attitude made him less likable than the average Joe. He did make a valid point when he says that consumers do ask these things and do press agents and lenders for answers. The response has nothing to do with "fair" but has everything with legality. "Fair" is a relative term but the law is explicit.

Tolerance and education is a two-way street, ladies and gentlemen. While we may not like his attitude, we must address it on a real estate website; I doubt that a threatening comment to report his malevolence will help him understand the severity of breaking the law.

La Raza is by far one of the most racist organizations on the planet.

We deal with this everyday in this business. Its how you handle the questions that sets us apart. Comply with the laws and move on. Once the consumer understands the laws we must comply by the questions normally the questions will stop.

Having been a buyer myself I can understand someone would want to know certain information about an area. I don't however, get the questions that are blatantly or more subtley racist. It is the buyer's job to do THIER due diligence on the issues that matter to them. We can facilitate that by providing them the resources, but they need to determine for themselves what the facts are and decide whether it meets their needs or not. Anyone who expects someone else to make those decisions for themselves is making a huge mistake. And with the laws it puts us as risk to even hint at those answers.

As for family saftey, if it so important then you need to do YOUR investigation. Why on earth would you rely on someone else for something that is that important to you? And with that atittude, that is not someone that I would feel I could represent effectively, nor would I want to.

Jeff

Hi Eric - I think we must all always take the Fair Housing laws seriously. It's all too easy to fall into a trap, trying to be the ever-helpful REALTOR, and answer the kinds of questions that clients implore us to answer. I know I can so easily understand the need for buyer-clients to want the kind of info that they do, not knowing the area they're moving into at all, but it's not worth jail time and/or those nasty fines to me to cross that line.

As someone said in one of the comments on the post that inspired you to write this post - we can be "the source of the source" - provide the souce(s) where they can seek out the info they need or want on their own, but not the info itself.

Thanks for putting this info out there so we can all use this reminder.
Ann

Fair housing is for everyone. Anyone who does not handle working is this direction is just not being appropriate.

Eric, You selected a great topic. I just got back from the Ohio Association of Realtors Annual Conference and attended a 3 hour course on Fair Housing by Terry Watson. If you have never seen Terry Watson in action I highly recommend his seminars. He used many video examples showing how different races are treated and the videos certainly showed a different perspective than someone who just uses a Powerpoint presentation.

We don't just sell houses, we sell neighborhoods and communities. If you are working with buyers that have questions about issues that you can not address, it is well within the law to suggest that they visit the neighborhood at various times of the day. You can show the house, you can inform them about the house. The neighborhood and the community are areas that buyers need to investigate on their own.

These laws are in place because racism is alive and well all across this country. I was asked to handle a relo by my corporate office. A large government agency in Virginia was bringing a group of people in to work in a satellite listening office. I took them around and showed them homes in their price range.

When they got back to their hotel, they called our corporate relocation director and complained "he showed us homes near colored people and we want a new agent."

The director, a african-american woman replied " honey, get used to it, we're everywhere!"

I never saw them again, but her comment made my day.

Very informative thank you for the info

Eric,

I am part of what it is considered a minority group. Most of my clients are also part of that group and probably 95% of the time they ask about the racial composition any neighborhood. I always explain to them that I am not allowed to tell them by law, but they always seem to find out and then voice their preference. No, they do not always want to be in a neighborhood with other families of the same minority group, sometime they do and many time they rather don't. I have however always had the same explanation: "It is against the law and I can not answer that question, please do not ask again."

I understand discrimination, but I don't understand how talking about crime can be discriminatory. Now I am not saying that I discuss this information with my client, I always plead the 5th like most people that want to stay within the law and refer them to where they can do there own research.

In regards to the schools I have always thought that it was more related to what kind of school it was than about what races go there. In Florida it is always a problem talking about schools because you never know from one year to the next. I have even heard that some parents were suing a builder because they were told their children were going to an "A" school and they end up going to a "C" school instead because they were re-zoned.

Leigh - what a great answer you gave and I totally agree. We abide by the rules but it doesn't mean we don't have the right to not like them.

I compare it to my kids having to have short haircuts above their collar because they go to Catholic School. You may not like the rules, but it's important for you to learn them and follow them.

As for Brian - I totally agree as well (when is this going to stop?) - a consumer asks a question and we cannot repond with belligerence, it is our duty to educate those who ask.

Erik, thanks for guiding me to that other post, it has definitely been an experience. I tell all of our customers that ask us any type of question that will break FH that we cannot answer the question because we would be breaking the law. We don't ever avoid the question and we don't tippy toe around it either.

As for schools, we mention every school in the area - don't give our opinion and even include ratings if they have them.

These laws are in place because racism is alive and well all across this country

The laws are in place because the laws are in place- that is all that is required to say to a customer. No opinion nor passion is necessary. It is that evangelical zeal to express a personal or political view that gets agents (and originators) into trouble.

The law is just...the law.

Lots of good comments from all..thank you!

Scott -- I'm wondering what is not fair here. By quoting what an individual's own comments were, how is that unfair?

Leigh -- My daughter lives and works in Munich. She's also worked in Berlin and in Cologne. You might be surprised to know that they have their own minority populations and their own agencies that deal with equal treatment in housing.

Brian -- I don't recall anyone threatening to "out" the individual that made those comments on Charles' blog. I did suggest that fellow contact HUD himself and learn what they might say about his views. As far as members questioning why we have to adhere to these laws, I believe all licensees in the U.S. are taught Federal law dealing with anti-discrimination. They may not like it, but if one is to keep one's license, that is the price we pay.

I do agree with your statement that the law is the law. Yes, there is racism in America. It is part of our obligation not to contribute to it, but rather to encourage tolerance. Consumers shouldn't have to fear that their agent will not treat them fairly in a financial (or any other) setting.

I don't see Fair Housing as a political issue. Both major political parties have taken a stand against discrimination. I don't think HUD has been any less proactive under a Republican president than it was under a Democrat.

Wendy, Dawn, John and Gary -- Thank you for the supportive comments. I agree that part of the purpose of this site is to be informative. I have taught Fair Housing courses in Minneapolis and I have encountered similar questions and problems. I still believe that many agents don't fully understand Fair Housing law. And Dawn, I found that fellow's comments offensive myself.

Wendy, I particularly appreciate your comment, "A family's safety has nothing to do with the ethnicity the neighbors"!

Eric Bouler -- Try as I might, I just cannot feel good about the statement that "The races in New Orleans do not mix well in social settings, schools, on the job". This just sounds to me like a racially inflammatory statement that would not be appropriate for an agent.

Eric, since I work as a NSA, I do not know all Fair Housing laws. But I can say this, as a NSA, I get asked to back-date on an all-to-frequent basis. Many times, I do not have enough information as to who made the request, so I do not have enough info to report it. BUT, in one instance, I not only knew who it was (I did signing for them) when they asked me to back-date a second signing, I told them it was a felony in FL, they said it was not. They went & got someone else to do it that worked in their company, so I reported it to the FL Governor. FL has very open Sunshine laws which make this very easily verified. The next notaries license was suspended. I come from law enforcement background, and do not believe fraud, or any blatent illegal act for that matter should be tolerated, and I will report it if I have proof & enough information. It was interesting, I wrote a blog about it, NOT ONE mortgage broker or title company replied, only couple of notaries & Realtors. I found that pretty interesting. See my post

http://activerain.com/blogsview/193083/Calling-all-mortgage-brokers

Hayden, I think the rhetoric used by all minority advocacy groups may have a strident side from time to time that concerns some people. I have heard others make similar comments about the NAACP or the Anti-Defamation League. But the point is that those organizations exist so the people they represent will feel they have a voice.

Rebecca, thank you for that perspective!

Jeff, I appreciate your comments as well!

Ann, Bob & Carol, Sam -- Thank you for your contribution to the discussion!

John, I enjoyed your story! I agree that these laws are in place simply because racism is alive and well in America. And it is our duty to avoid contributing to any perception that might worsen the situation in our dealings with the public.

JR -- Thanks for your comments.

Carmen -- I think people who discriminate tend to use the question of crime rates as a smoke screen to conceal the true intent of their concerns about ethnic composition of a particular community.

Eric,

We have been having some problems with this issue....not that we are violating the laws, but other agents have kept one particluar group from buying in a certain area for years.........I have no idea what they have been doing, but just recently we were the first office to actually sell a home to someone from this group.

I don't want to go into specifics, just suffice it to say that everyone, neighbors, agents, everyone knows that we won't play that game!!!!!

Rick & Ines -- Thank you for your perspective! I'm glad to hear that you deal with customer questions about Fair Housing issues head-on.

Ronald -- I think enforcement issues make people uncomfortable. You're right that it's our duty to bring violations of law to the attention of the authorities. It's unpleasant sometimes, but our licensing authorities expect us to do so.

"Eric,

I don't want to go into specifics, just suffice it to say that everyone, neighbors, agents, everyone knows that we won't play that game!!!!!"

This comment troubles me, because it was submitted anonymously. I appreciate your input, but I'd strongly encourage you to contact your regional HUD office and report what has been going on in your area. I applaud your office for taking the high road and not cooperating with a boycott of any particular ethnic group.

Thanks for writing and please email me if you want to submit a complaint anonymously. I would be glad to help in any way I can.

Eric:

You say: But the point is that those organizations exist so the people they represent will feel they have a voice.

I say: not so they "feel" they will have a voice... the organizations exist because those groups dont otherwise have a voice, and needed the organization to represent them.

I find the language we use revealing... once, when I was in college, I was into creative writing. I attended a poetry reading by Etheridge Knight, an African American poet of some serious stature. I was friendly with the professor sponsoring the reading, and was able to have dinner with Mr Knight and some other students and profs. My prof told him that I was writing some decent stuff, and Mr. Knight asked me to tell him one of my poems... I did not have any written copies handy and told him so. He said that Poems are to be told, and that I should tell him one some time. I asked why he wrote so vehemently about blacks in the country. He asked me what I saw when I looked in the mirror... I said I saw a man. He said to me that when he looked in the mirror he did not see a man, but instead saw a BLACK MAN. That was a cultural artifact, and he wanted to make the difference apparent to people.

Saying that these organizations exist to make their constituency "feel" like they have a voice, rather than saying that they exist to "give that group a voice" indicates, like my comment about seeing a man, that we do not see what is happening.

And, I would say, that the reason the Fair Housing laws exist, is because we all like the groups to feel like they have a voice, but we are not so keen to give them one. These laws protect that right to a voice, as well as the law can do so.

These days, especially today, 9-11, we should all try to see things from some other set of shoes, and try to understand why there are such laws as this, among other things, and not just say "The Law Is Law, so we must act like we are following it, so that others feel like they too are equal citizens of the world." No, I think we should follow these things from the heart, and understand why they exist, so that perhaps one day, they will not need to exist.

Just my three cents.

Paul, it was not my intention to minimize the purpose of any group that represents minorities. If that were my intention, I would not have listed these organizations in my post, nor would I have provided links to them to facilitate AR members visiting these sites and learning more about their purpose.

You are absolutely correct that organizations like NAACP, the Anti-defamation League, LaRaza, the Arab-American Anti-discrimination League, La Raza and similar organizations do exist for the purpose of giving the people they represent a true voice in society.

I don't believe Fair Housing Laws or HUD offices exist to give some sort of sugar-coated false impression that consumers will be treated fairly. I think they exist because government saw the need to put some teeth into those laws and to see that they're enforced. I happen to be an advocate of Fair Housing Laws. I teach Fair Housing courses.

My comment was in defense of La Raza, not critical of it. I'm a little puzzled that my statement about that organization is being somehow interpreted by you as cosmetic. Perhaps you are over-analyzing that statement a bit.

If you will read the comments that have been made on this post, as well as those contributed in the past to similar posts, you may come to realize that there are unfortunately a few folks on AR who appear to be less concerned than you or I about whether protected groups have a voice at all.

Eric... I did not intend to pick on you, as you have made very clear your position, and I agree with you 100%...I was making the point only that many people say things and do not realize what they are telling others about themselves... several comments here are quite revealing... your words were the most benign, and as a result I selected them to pick, not wanting to get into a flame race with anyone. Hope you dont mind my "using" you in that fashion.

Sorry if I offended... it was not my intention...

Paul, no problem. I respect your opinions and very much appreciate your input. And I have added you as an Associate. Thanks for contributing and expressing yourself.

SEP

2007

Eric-

I'll disagree with your claim that your comments are not political or motivated by a personal agenda. Let me explain:

Requesting information on the "ethnic makeup" of a neighborhood is illegal. It is odious conduct for an agent to provide that information. It is just as vile for a client to request it

How is a client's ignorance vile? Ignorance isn't vile, it's just unknowing. Clients routinely ask questions where an answer by a licensee would be in direct violation of the FHA. Just follow the law.

I happen to be an advocate of Fair Housing Laws

We're all advocates of Fair Housing by our compliance with the law. Every licensee is an advocate of fair housing by his/her acceptance of a license.

Why the rhetoric about racism? It's the old argument that states that if I'm not part of the solution I'm part of the problem. If I disagree with your call to action and simply comply with the law, then I'm some kind of a racist because I'm implicitly condoning racism?

That logic is not going to hold water with me, Eric. I don't need to promote the NAACP or La Raza to follow the FHA. I certainly don't need to tell clients who ask questions in violation with the FHA my personal opinion about why it was enacted; I just need to follow the law.

This has been my consistent answer to all posts on Active Rain; follow the law. If you think ithe law is dumb, call your Congressperson but follow the law. if you think it doesn't go far enough, call your Senator but simply follow the law- especially on a public website with 40,000 people whose income depends upon that very act.

Just...follow...the...law and we'll all stay out of trouble.

Your blog has just inspired one from me. thanks! (and fantastic post obviously hence the inspiration!)

Brian, no one is asking you to promote the NAACP or any other civil rights organization. The link to those organizations was provided so that anyone reading the post would have additional resources to use if they wish to file a discrimination complaint.

Are you saying that you have no political opinions or political motivation in your last comment? I think you are displaying those right now.

And who called you a racist? That seems like a very touchy reaction to the use of a word which, incidentally, is used by people at HUD to describe the conduct of some Fair Housing violators.

If you find it offensive to hear a personal opinion about why the Fair Housing Act was enacted, then you must find CE courses offensive, Every CE course I have taken (or taught) with regard to Fair Housing includes a history of the various Civil Rights acts that led up to the Fair Housing Act of 1968. The course syllabus for Fair Housing courses in both states where I am licensed includes an explanation of "why it was enacted".

The fellow who made the comments on Charles' blog was, in my opinion, not ignorant of the law. In fact, he said he was not. Badgering an agent about the "ethnic makeup" of a neighborhood is illegal and anyone who reads the paper or watches television or uses the Internet should know that.

If you wish to attack me for my post, go ahead. Yes, I absolutely do have a personal agenda here. My agenda is this..I find it sad that we have to teach Fair Housing over and over again, to reasonably intelligent people who pretend not to get it. Licensees should know better, because it is drummed into their heads from day one and in continuing education classes. The public should know better and it's a good idea for them to know because in Court, they'll be told "ignorance of the law is no excuse".

I don't agree with you that "Every licensee is an advocate of fair housing by his/her acceptance of a license". That logic just doesn't hold water with me and I don't believe that the folks at HUD would buy that statement either, not for one second. If that were true, HUD could save a lot of money which is currently spent on sending Testers all over the country to look for violations. And there are recent violations posted on the HUD website right now which demonstrate quite clearly that every licensee is unfortunately not an "advocate of fair housing".

I believe a small minority of licensees harbor a degree of resistance to Fair Housing laws, yet they understand that they must comply in order to remain in business. Just because their opinions are veiled doesn't mean they don't exist.

Thank you, Jennifer..best of luck with your blog!

MY THANKS to all who have submitted comments and to the folks at Active Rain for awarding the "Featured Post"!

This is something there is no music to -- its the law. You cannot dance around it. Its plain and simple and not hard at all for me to follow. It is not only the law but its the right thing to do. Double dip.

Thank you Rosemary! I agree, the simple thing to do is go along with it. I also appreciate the fact that you mentioned it's the right thing to do.

It is frustrating when you trying to help people out and the laws prevent it. I have lost clients who thought I was not giving them the right advive, "Like their last realtor."

Would you try to educate the public or other agents about the need to observe and comply with Fair Housing statutes? YES
If a consumer (or another licensee) asked you to violate Fair Housing Laws, would you go along with that request? NO
If a person asked you to violate Fair Housing Laws, would you report that individual to the appropriate authorities, including HUD? NO

Al -- I appreciate your comments above. And I can understand the frustration with not being able to answer all of a client's questions. Thanks also for responding to my survey!

Eric, This is a really good post. I read the post from Charles also. Both of you make some really good points. I do agree that a lot of us need to hear this type of information more often.

I am very specifically not trying to personally attack Brian here, so Brian, please note that BEFORE flaming me, but:

You said: We're all advocates of Fair Housing by our compliance with the law. Every licensee is an advocate of fair housing by his/her acceptance of a license.

My reply: complying with the law is not at all the same as being an advocate for that law. Check http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/advocate and we should be aware of that. Complying with the law is the least we must do, where as advocating for a position is well beyond that. Let's not fool ourselves.

As my earlier comment indicated, it is all about the conceptual vocabulary we have, and use, that reveals our stand on an issue. I am a trained linguistic anthropologist and attorney, and so I pay attention to these things. Complying without advocating does not make you a racist, but it certainly does not make you an advocate either. It simply makes you law abiding. In some instances the law may be immoral or unethical, as was the case in WW2 in some countries (Germany for one) and the claim that "they were abiding by the law" or "just following orders" did not keep the war crimes tribunal from prosecuting many citizens of those countries.

I am not saying you are doing that, or that you are like the folks back then, or that you are racist or anything else about you personally... I dont know you, and cant make any such judgements... I am just trying to point out another aspect of this issue, in general terms, but inspired in me by your post...

Just my nickel.

Are you saying that you have no political opinions or political motivation in your last comment? I think you are displaying those right now.

And who called you a racist? That seems like a very touchy reaction to the use of a word which, incidentally, is used by people at HUD to describe the conduct of some Fair Housing violators.

Astounding! Now the tactics have shifted because I've exhibited a "touchy reaction" to the obviously loaded overtone of the title of this post. Mr. Silver compares my compliance with the law and plea to members to do just that on this forum with a reference to Nazi prison guards. Astounding to say the least. It's the old argument used by President Bush, "If you're not with us, you're against us". It didn't work when he said it and it doesn't work now.

Gentlemen: Anyone who has read me here knows that I am a vigilant watchdog of posts that are non-compliant with the FHA. There have been posts that exhibit a bias towards religious exclusion, blatant ethnic compositions of neighborhoods, and "family friendly"content. I, among others, have politely pointed them out. Here's the rub; the authors didn't understand they were non-compliant. The danger doesn't exist in the motivations of the FHA, it exists in the non-compliance with the FHA

Mr. Mc Donald did an excellent job in his post about why practitioners must be vague with their answers. A non-practitioner made a passionate statement that was predictable; consumers ask these questions DAILY.

How about I try this? I'll ask Messrs. Silver and and Kodner a direct question:

Are you suggesting that if I don't report a statement or question, made by a consumer, like the one we saw on Mr. McDonald's post, it means I condone racism?

You know, The power of Ten (TV game show), asked the question last week, "What percentage of Americans said they would not move into a neighborhood if they knew they were the only person of their ethnicity there?"

I thought the answer was kind of interesting because both of the players said somewhere between 50-60% but the answer was actually 47 or 48%.

I thought that sounded very low myself. We HAVE to abide by these Federal Fair Housing Laws. I understand why they are there and whatnot. I FULLY SUPPORT why these laws came into being.

HOWEVER, people want to be comfortable in their home. We have a huge population of folks moving to NC from other states. People who have never even visited the area are buying homes over a weekend. I DO NOT like that I can't be more helpful when more specific questions are asked. Not ugly questions. Not racist questions. Just, "I come home to my home every evening. I want to know that I will feel good and comfortable with that everyday."

I will add that the Charlotte region is a wonderfully diverse area and the vast majority of people here do everything they can to further that diversity. I fire the people who are ugly but some people just want honest help!

Brian -

"These laws are in place because racism is alive and well all across this country

The law is just...the law. "

Why do you quote me, out of context and leave the implication that my comments were an indication of what I would say to a consumer? I happen to agree with you....the law is the law. Professionally, it is my job to follow the law (after all, my profession is built around the rule of law). As an individual, in a forum discussion, I would think that I am free to offer an opinion regarding the genesis of the law. I also believe that you can feel one way or another and that is not indicative of how you deal with clients.

I wouldn't violate any laws, Fair Housing or not. Why? Mostly because I am a fair, honest person. Secondly, I wouldn't want to trade my comfortable bed for a slab of concrete in a tiny cell with Bubba.

Brian,

Post titles are, by nature, written to be provocative, to elicit a response. You write yours the way you wish and I'll write mine. This is America.

Scroll to the top of the page and do a search among blogs for the word "racism" or "racist". You'll see those words in other blog posts. I'm not the first member here to use the word in a post or title.

If you have a problem with something Mr. Silver wrote, take it up with him.

I'll answer your direct question directly. My understanding is that HUD expects us to report incidents where Fair Housing Laws have been broken. The former attorney for the Wisconsin Realtors' Association told us in CE class that witnessing a Fair Housing violation and then failing to report it may be construed as complicity. He also told his class that there are fines and penalties for concealing knowledge of a Fair Housing violation once a licensee becomes aware of it.

To paraphrase your own words, if that is the law, then that is what we're supposed to do.

This is such an important topic yet without even reading most of the comments I know that they will range from those who feel outraged that they can't answer certain questions to those who embrace the fair housing laws. I was so passionate about discrimination in housing that I observed almost daily during my early years in real estate that I eventually became a board member and president of what is now the Housing Rights Center of Southern California, chaired the California Association of Realtors Equal Opportunity/Cultural Diversity Committee, and was a representative of CAR at the Housing Summit which was a gathering of leaders from NAR, CAR, NAHREP, Realists, Chinese Ass. of Realtors etc. created to find ways to work together to address common issues like predatory lending. The scope and depth of discrimination issues and the many forms they take in real estate goes way beyond this comment but I can tell you that the horrific cases of discrimination I heard about and our organization represented remind me every day as to why I chose to bend over backwards to follow the Fair Housing laws and to support organizations created to protect the housing rights of all.

Fair housing is an important topic for all of us.

Eric,

I dealt with this issue last week. I had a buyer trying to get me to steer him into "good" neighborhoods. When I told him i could not but I could give him links to neighborhood reports and crime statistics, he bailed on me!

Nice topic. I tend to come across people who want to know if it is a "good neighborhood". That means so many different things depending on the person asking. I send them a link to crime stats so they can decide based on actual data rather than racial composition, etc.

Greg -- Thank you for the supportive comment! I owe Charles McDonald my gratitude for opening the door to this post. This is an extremely important topic and, as you can see, one that arouses a wide range of emotions and reactions!

Virginia -- Television producers of having the luxury to discuss topics we cannot..there's nobody to take their license away for asking the question about choosing a neighborhood based on its ethnic composition.

Thanks for sharing your perceptions on this topic!

John, I greatly appreciate your defense of the freedom "to offer an opinion regarding the genesis of the law". I don't agree at all with Brian's statement that "no opinion or passion is necessary". There is nothing wrong with being passionate about adherence to Fair Housing principles. If that offends someone, they don't have to listen.

Dan -- thanks for commenting!

Diane, you've done a great job of summarizing the range of reactions and emotions that have surfaced in response to this post. And it sounds like you have a very thorough background in serving with a number of organizations devoted to Fair Housing issues!

Bob & Carolin, thank you!

Dan, I'd say if you lose a client because they choose to tries to induce you to "steer", I'd say good riddance to him. Do you think it's possible that was a HUD Tester?

Robin, you've handled that correctly. Directing them to resources and letting them draw their own conclusions is absolutely the way to deal with their questions about a "good neighborhood".

Thank you for your answer, Eric. I'm still unclear and will default to your expertise as a CE instructor with a passion for FHA.

I understand your answer to mean that I must report to HUD every question, statement, or insinuation a customer makes, that if I answered, may compromise my compliance to the FHA. Am I comprehending your answer correctly?

I also understand that your title was provocative in nature. You're not really suggesting that I condone racism if I didn't, as you wrote, "walk the talk" and chose to just comply with the law. Is that accurate?

I teach a state certified class on fair housing... sadly, sellers are still out there who would rather not sell to the wrong buyers. We must teach our sellers that the only color that matters is green--the color of money. If a buyer can qualify to buy the property, and their offer is acceptable, Sell The House!

There is a whole historical perspective, dating back to the Constitution, up to Executive Orders during the Clinton and current Bush White Houses, which are still striving for fairer Fair Housing. It is as important today as ever, all people have a right to live anywhere they can afford to live.

We as professionals have a duty to provide our buyers every opportunity to find the house for our buyers to call home... and to counsel our sellers to encourage the very best buyers to buy, regardless of race, ethnicity, age, familial status, religion, color, national origin, disability, sex, sexual orientation, and veteran status.

Brian,

I'm not representing myself as an authority on what HUD does or does not require. I'm not an attorney, nor am I qualified to speak for HUD. I only reported my recollection from a class with the lead attorney for the Wisconsin Realtors' Association (WRA), in which he stated that compliance includes the obligation to report the violations of others.

Rather than rely upon any opinions expressed in a blog by someone who is not an attorney or HUD official, I'd suggest that anyone who wishes to know their duties under Fair Housing laws should contact HUD directly or direct their questions on the topic to a skilled real estate attorney in their home state.

In addition to Federal laws, as you know, there are State and even Municipal laws governing this subject. Protected groups vary from state to state and some cities (like Madison, Wisconsin) recognize a much larger number of such protected groups that are covered under municipal anti-discrimination laws.

When you write "You're not really suggesting that I condone racism if I didn't, as you wrote, 'walk the talk' and chose to just comply with the law", I find that puzzling. I have read and re-read my post and nowhere in this post do I state or imply that someone who obeys the law is not doing enough or is condoning racism.

Kevin, I'm glad you added your comment! What you have written is absolutely correct. It deserves repeating: "We as professionals have a duty to provide our buyers every opportunity to find the house for our buyers to call home... and to counsel our sellers to encourage the very best buyers to buy, regardless of race, ethnicity, age, familial status, religion, color, national origin, disability, sex, sexual orientation, and veteran status". Thank you!

I left my long-winded post in Charlesblog post previously cited.

One thing I would point out is that I think it is ironic that we can tell people where they can find information we can't quote. So, I can effectively point to a statement that says that school A has an 89% happy rating, but I am not allowed to say it. I can point to a statement that says zip code 99999-a has a 3% crime rate, but I can't say it.

*please note that "happy" isn't an official school rating, nor 3% crime rate is equally invalid*

Just food for thought...

Lane,

I understand why the law is puzzling to many in our industry. It would be great to get some sort of "guest" post going on AR by someone at HUD who could enlighten us all and answer our many questions.

I have read and re-read my post and nowhere in this post do I state or imply that someone who obeys the law is not doing enough or is condoning racism.

Then you have my whole-hearted support. Thank you for your clarity. I choose to avoid the narrow definition of the FHA as a race issue. As you know, it's so much more.

SEP

2007

Eric: It sounds as if a lot of those commenting need clarification on how to handle many different scenarios. I would suggest that you get someone for either a Fair Housing Council or an attorney that specializes in these types of cases to answer these questions as, no offense to the CE instructor, the reality of how testing is done, what will and won't be considered a fair housing violation etc. is different from what is covered in our classes and the cases are a lot more complex.

By the way, Brian is absolutely right about the FHA. When I was still involved in The Housing Rights Center of So. Calif. the number one category of discrimination was familial status. If I may add, to Kevin, we don't just try to encourage our sellers to obey the law, we demand it or we don't take the listing. If you have a seller that says "I won't sell to "blank" because they are a member of ANY of the protected classes then you explain the law to them and if they don't agree, you should cancel your listing agreement.

NAR used to publish a great book: Passwords in Prejudice A Realtor's Guide to Fair Housing Compliance that provided wonderful scenarios for agents on how to handle each of the questions raised here. I have one copy if anyone wants to borrow it. But your best bet is to go to your local Fair Housing Council.

Brian,

Perhaps it would be better to use the term "bigotry" to describe the actions of an individual who is engaged in discrimination. There are also terms like "hate speech" (somewhat controversial) or xenophobia (which is a bit esoteric for most). To me, it's a rose by any other name..hate is hate and discrimination is discrimination. I think most people get the picture, semantic discussions aside.

Diane, thank you for the good comments. Yes, I've stated above that I'm not an attorney and I would welcome contact from someone at HUD who would offer to enlighten agents and answer their questions.

I agree completely that all protected classes must be represented, and familial status is an important one.

I happen to think that a lot of AR members might benefit from taking NAR's "At Home With Diversity" course. There is now an online version of the course available through NAR's Realtor University. Details are available at Realtor.org and the cost of the online course is only $49.

Actually, I'm planning on interviewing someone at the Minneapolis HUD office sometime during the next week or so, with questions about enforcement and investigative procedures. Maybe the results of that interview will become material for a future post here on AR!

There's a parallel exchange of comments going on at Charles McDonald's blog and I encourage anyone reading mine to take a look at his as well.

Eric: The At Home with Diversity course is great IF you have a good instructor. Michael Lee is the best but comes with a price. He wrote an excellent book as well: Opening Doors: Selling to Multicultural Real Estate Clients. Taking the course in person is preferrable but any way is better than nothing. We arranged for Michael Lee to teach the course at one of the state-wide director's meetings and expo which is how we were able to get him. You should have a local Fair Housing Council that does the testing and monitoring of fair housing laws for HUD. They should be able to recommend an attorney as well as offer educational services as that is what they are contracted by the cities to do as part of the federal law requirements. This is something I have spent many years on so would be happy to assist anyone!

Eric, this is a great post. Well-deserved feature, my friend.

In the loan application process, I have to say something to the effect of "The government likes to check up on me and make sure that I'm fair when I give out money, so I'm going to ask an optional question...you can answer or you can say 'I prefer not to answer', but What is your race or ethnicity?"

It's amazing all the feedback I get from folks. Most people wish we wouldn't ask at all, epecially the 'majority' who wonder what the issue is and if someone's getting some special benefit because of their answer.

I sometimes explain that, yes, it's unfortunate but true that some real estate professionals discriminate. The government monitors us to make sure we're not in that camp.

Sad reality.

SEP

2007

We have so many biases in the US that it is hard to separate the intent of the questions from valid questions vs. prejudicial intent. The above commenter was right, when we are blind to race, skin, speech, background, etc. we will be much further ahead indeed!

Janie - THAT's exactly my point - by having all these rules to abide by, we will always be aware of differences and will never be blind to them. I really miss being able to talk to my friends (no matter what ethnic background or nationality) without having to be "politically correct". I totally get why the rules have to be in place, but it saddens me.

I just refuse to be politically correct, and my clients and friends will back that up. I do self censor, but that isn't because I want to be PC, but rather because I might spew something stupid. I just posted up X is for Xenophobia on my blog.

Greetings All,

I have been granted an interview this coming week with a HUD attorney at the Minneapolis HUD office. The interview will be material for an upcoming post.

If anyone here (or any interested reader of this post) has a question they would like relayed to the HUD attorney, please contribute those questions here or comment to my latest blog post:

http://activerain.com/blogsview/204723/Contribute-Your-Questions-for

Thank you!

Diane, thank you for the helpful information. I know there are members of AR here who will benefit from your expertise!

Joey -- I appreciate your comments and compliment!

Janie -- Thank you for your contribution.

Rick & Ines -- It is unfortunate that enforcement is such an issue. Fair Housing guidelines are part of continuing education in all states. Licensees have no excuse to pretend they don't understand the law.

SEP

2007

Eric: I'm going back to read Charles' blog but before I do, I wanted to leave a comment for you. Fortunately, I haven't run into this situation very much but I did have some recently seem to strongly hint that he wanted to be very selective about buyers. I immediately informed this buyer of Fair Housing Laws and that it was my responsibility to show the home to any qualified buyer and I stressed "any". He dropped it after that. Have you had your meeting with Fair Housing yet? I'll be looking for your follow-up blog.

Donna,

The HUD staffer requested an emailed list of questions before the interview and this has been sent to them. Apparently they wanted some advance idea of what the questions would be. I'm awaiting the interview and I expect it to take place early next week.

Once I have the replies in hand, I plan to post the interview to my blog. Thanks for inquiring!

SEP

2007

Eric,

Good post. The following is a post I published on AR during April "fair housing month". As I read it again, it may not be as concise as I would have liked, but I believe being fair is very basic to the practice of real estate and should be an integral part of our lives. I see you posted in several groups, but not the GLBT issues group. There have been several interesting discussions of fair housing issues as they relate to the gay & lesbian market, sexual orientation is a protected class in some states, including my home state of Illinois. Check out GLBT issues for some interesting discussions. Anyway, here is a re-post of my April post.

April is fair housing month. My first thought about that is that it is unfortunate that there is a need to have a fair housing month. Not to be preachy, but fairness should be fundamental to the way we live our lives and conduct our business. Coincidentally, I rented the film "Crash" last week. While the delivery of the message was rather heavy handed, the message is a good one. Most people have preconceived notions about others based upon perceptions, and those perceptions are frequently wrong, because people are more complex than their stereotypes. While Crash dealt only with race, people tend to divide themselves in arbitrary ways, making judgments based on politics, religion, age, sex, and sexual orientation, among other factors. Although I have strongly held positions, I read the blogs posted in my local newspaper and listen to the talk radio stations in order to hear other viewpoints. Most of talk radio consists of a host who sets himself up as the ultimate authority on every imaginable topic, fires people up then gets them to call in and express opinions. I think it is all showmanship, but it reveals the bias of many of the callers. Some of those opinions are truly appalling in the obvious hatred behind them. As the film Crash portrayed, "good" people do bad things and "bad" people do good things. This relates to real estate in a couple of ways. First we need to listen to clients and their reasons for wanting what they want. Secondly, the irony of fair housing is that, even in discussing fair housing there is a list of categories against which it is illegal to discriminate. Of course, everyone we all fall into these categories. In my career I have worked with a very diverse group of clients and feel enriched by the experience. Most prejudice is based upon ignorance and fear. When we get to know people better, we can better understand them and realize there is nothing to fear. Society has a long way to go to rid itself of bias, but as Realtors we are uniquely positioned to promote understanding. I look forward to a time when it is no longer necessary to have a fair housing month.

Rich, thank you for your comments. I was unaware of the existence of the GLBT group, as I'm still fairly new here, but I have joined and will post there.

I agree it's unfortunate that we need to remind anyone that Fair Housing is the law. The subject of Fair Housing stirs passions and brings out opinions like no other topic. If you have looked at the thread of comments attached to this and to related posts, you'll find that licensees will debate the subject in a heartbeat.

You'll hear some argue that the law is unfair, that it violates "free speech", that it is onerous and selective and capriciously-applied. Others complain that the discussion of Fair Housing is a smokescreen for political lobbying. All the above suggests to me that we need the Fair Housing reminder now more than ever.

SEP

2007

Eric,

I agree, there certainly is a need for fair housing laws. Some agents in Illinois were caught "steering" a couple of years ago. That reflects badly on all of us.

OCT

2007

If people want to find out if a neighborhood is safe they should check with the police station. If they want info on schools we can give them the web sites but about ethnicity, I would just say America is the melting pot. I am from India, and I have heard from some Indians in the hot market, that their offer was not accepted. They were not my clients so I do not know the reason. Fortunately for me I have not experienced it myself.

Gita, I agree that America has always considered itself a "melting pot". But it seems each new wave of immigration brings along with it the need to remind some people that discrimination is against public policy and against the law.

OCT

2007

I'm glad you brought this up. When the topic arises, I am constantly amazed by how many agents seem very sketchy about it or flat out disagree with the laws. I have found it very easy to simply say "to answer that would violate the Fair Housing Law." Most people do not have a problem with that. If I needed to, I would dump a client before violating those laws.

OCT

2007

Tanya, I agree that it's surprising to encounter the occasional agent who wants to argue with Fair Housing laws. It demonstrates that there is still resistance to the concept of equal housing, even in the twenty-first century!

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