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Value vanished into thin air...

By
Real Estate Agent with Real Estate One

chart of value lossA recent post by John Mulkey here on ActiveRain made the rather blunt point that the home value lost in this recession is NEVER, EVER coming back (see John's post). John explained that it has vanished into thin air and will never be recovered. He opined that, although prices will eventually start rising again; they are likely to rise at the historic rate of 3% a year, or about the rate of normal inflation. If that is true, then the increased price rise does not represent a true recovery of lost value, since one must adjust for inflation.

Many people commented on that post and most just didn't seem to get it. For many, if the price goes up a bit then the value also went up and that means that lost value was recovered. That just isn't true. Look at it this way. If a stock that I own drops in value 30% (a similar drop to home values in this area), that represents real loss of value. To make the example simple; if the stock was at $1 a share and I own 100 shares, then it was worth $100 just prior to the drop. Had I sold it before the drop, I could have bought goods worth $100 - let's say 20 pounds of coffee at $5/pound. After the drop my holding in that stock is worth $70. With that, I could only buy 14 pounds of coffee.

Now if I hold on to it for 10 years and it finally makes its way slowly back to the price it was at when the drop occurred, my 100 shares would again be worth $100. But what happened to the price of the goods that I could have bought 10 years ago. At an inflation rate of only 3% in the price of coffee over that time coffee would cost $6.62/pound and I could only buy 14.88 pounds, or about what I could buy today for my $70. So the price is back to the pre-bust level, but the value has hardly improved at all. The same thing applies to home values.

The "value" that was lost from homes in the real estate bust was a paper loss for most but a very real loss for those who actually bought during the run-up prior to the bust and for the investors who bought the securities (now there's an oxymoron for you to ponder) that were created by pooling mortgages. People who bought prior to 2000 are likely about at break even, that is their homes have a current value that is about the same as when they bought. They haven't made the big appreciation that they hoped for (and once had, on paper); but, they are not under water on their mortgages either (unless, of course, they got greedy and took equity out of the house during the boom). The people who bought mortgage-backed securities that went bad are just out in the cold, just like people who bought stock in "the old GM" before it went bankrupt. They got the shaft from investment people whom they probably trusted and got to see them troop up to Capital HIll to say, "Oops, my bad", before they returned to their mansions in the Hamptons.

And where did all of that value go? A good deal of the actual money that changeman with questionsd hands went to the developers and builders who were cranking out new homes as fast as they could, many of whom subsequently went bankrupt during the bust because they got greedy and overextended themselves to build even more homes. Some of it went into the well lined pockets of the cat-fat bankers and mortgage lenders and wall street operators who were busily packaging and selling off pools of mortgages and who scored outrageous bonuses prior to the meltdown, none of which will ever be recovered. Some went to the investors and layers of administration that are behind the mortgage lending process.

Much of the "value" that was lost was never real to begin with. That value was mainly in the inflated "market prices" of existing home stock and was the figment of some assessor's imagination or the fantasy of some well greased appraiser. Both of those groups ran prices and "values" up as quickly as the market wanted, with little restraint. Asking where all that value went is like asking where your shadow goes at night.

So, what does this all mean? It means that we all need to let go of the past, give up the thoughts, hopes or dreams that we can wait this out and that the lost value will come back and everything will be as it was before the crash. That's not going to happen. Get over it. Live with it. Get on with life..

Posted by

 

 Norm Werner

Real Estate One

 

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Norm Werner
Real Estate One - Milford, MI
Helping the first time and every time

Gene, the sad thing is how many times we've seen this in our lives and how many really innocent people get hurt when these busts happen, whether it is real estate or the Internet bubble or companies like Enron going under or whatever. There are certainly people who bring it upon themselves, through actions that are driven by greed. However, there are also millions of people whose retirements took big hits because the retirement funds managers whom they trusted with their nest eggs weren't smart enough or savvy enough to avoid the lure of the promised returns on mortgage-backed investment bonds. 

As for being honest with ourselves, if we all were honest with ourselves places like Los Vegas would go out of business. It is our ability to lie to ourselves or to suppress common sense that keeping us playing the games and guessing which shell the pea is under on the street corners of America. Why? Because of the promise of big money if we win. Instant gratification and easy money are powerful lures. Just don't take the bobber down. I was fortunate that I did not get caught up in this mess, since I had already secured my future by befriending an African Prince whom I met on the Internet. I'm helping get to get his fortune out of the country and he has promised me a share. Now there's an investment you can count on.

Dec 23, 2010 03:10 AM
Eric Michael
Remerica Integrity, Realtors®, Northville, MI - Livonia, MI
Metro Detroit Real Estate Professional 734.564.1519

Norm, I agree. The value is gone. Vanished. Kaput. This is the new normal, or the old normal before there was the run up. Move on indeed.

Dec 23, 2010 03:33 AM
Carl Porambo
Exit 24/7 Realty - Watchung, NJ

Great post Norm. Those who don't 'get it' do not understand many aspect of the financial and economic models. But mainly two things- first, they do not comprehend economics (beyond simple supply/demand theories) and they do not understand the principles of valuation. As a former property analyst, now re associate, I can tell you that the majority of re agents and brokers do not grasp the statistical and methodical concepts of valuation beyond the very basic cma/bpo.

The 'perceived values' that were synthetically created from 2002 to 2006 like you stated, were never real, in the sense of a sustainable trend. Historic "intrinsic" values over 45 years show that home prices rise about 4.5% to 5%. Just above historic cpi percentages. Furthermore, basing appreciation on cpi now, would only put price rises about 1% to 2%. Which is in-line with the overall economy. Which is what most should expect, if any increase at all. Most markets are still depreciating anyway.

I'm a bit tired of the argument "all real estate is local". Yes, that is true to an extent. But when you are in a national recession (yes, we are still in a recession by the way. With a REAL unemployment rate of 21.7%) all bets are off. Like it or not, micro and sub-markets are still in some ways effected by the national economy.

In order to really analyze the housing market, you have to 'trim' or 'normalize the curves over the last ten years. That means smoothing out the inflated spikes from '02 to '06. Trimming the extreme upper and lower ends of the price curves. Because now, in some low to moderate income ares, the distressed properties that sold for .40 to .50 cents on the dollar are not true representations of 'normalized' prices either.

I agree with John's assessment, those inflated, synthetic values are never coming back- unless a level of corruption similar to the bubble period happens again. Which may very well happen in another decade or so. After the S&L debacle, everyone said, this will never happen again...well, it just took on another form, in the way of mortgage fraud. History DOES repeat itself.

Suffice to say that overall, a residential homeowner or residential income property owner should only expect a 2% to 4% appreciation rate, period. Anything above that is long-term unsustainable- in relation to wage increases and earning/purchasing power.

Dec 23, 2010 04:13 AM
Andrew Mooers | 207.532.6573
MOOERS REALTY - Houlton, ME
Northern Maine Real Estate-Aroostook County Broker

Every market is not one that has this dilema. Maine is 46th lowest for FSSR (foreclosure, short sale, repossession) and there was not a spike up or down bubble to burst. Marketing time extends a tad but low low prices stay there, inching slowly upward to adjust for inflation in rural markets like mine. Everywhere is not as you describe.

Dec 23, 2010 04:26 AM
Laura Sargent
Carolina One Real Estate - Mount Pleasant, SC
Excellent explanation! I just took two days explaining the reason why the offer we had on a listing made sense even though I had explained it all at listing time. People dont want loss. They don't want to own any part of it. We can't give it back... It is gone.
Dec 23, 2010 04:29 AM
Gary Woltal
Keller Williams Realty - Flower Mound, TX
Assoc. Broker Realtor SFR Dallas Ft. Worth

Norm, I would not use the word NEVER, it might take 20 years to come back...

Dec 23, 2010 05:20 AM
Not a real person
San Diego, CA

Back in the mid-1990s after the real estate market collapsed here in San Diego, the experts said that values would never, ever come back. Well, guess what? They not only came back, they exploded. It took only seven years for values to recover, and that’s including the rate of inflation.

However, real estate values that increase 30-50% annually cannot be sustained. Values here are already recovering -- they have been recovering since February 2009 -- but again they are in the unsustainable range, in some areas up to 60%.

If we can get real estate values to increase at twice the rate of inflation, and get people to buy a home to live in, raise a family in, retire in, and perhaps even die in, we’ll be much better off. Of course, that would mean that real estate agents wouldn't have sure sellers and buyers from past clients changing properties every two years.

Back when I was a real estate agent (several decades ago), we kept in touch with past clients not to try to get them to buy and sell every two years, but to make sure that when their children grew up, they would use us, when their parents were empty nesters and the home was too large, they would use us. I don't know if we'll ever get back to that point.

Dec 23, 2010 05:30 AM
Liz Murray
Renaissance Home Staging & Redesign - Chandler, AZ
Professional Home Stager

I live in Arizona, one of the most devastated area in the country.  The developers went nuts out here.  I reside in Chandler, an area that  just 10 years ago was about 15% built out.  Today it is about 95% built out.  That shows you how many homes and new developments were built here. 

The issue that I see happening that will also threaten the recovery here is the fact that so many of the builders abandoned the developments, or did not leave enough in HOA reserves to sustain those developments in the future. 

The HOA I live in had to deal with the S & L scandals of the 80s.  The original builder went belly-up.  Then a second developer also came in, and slapped up the remainder of the property, which ended up in court for a bunch of defects.   The board then  took that money and made a few repairs, and sat on the remainder of the settlement about $500K.  They  never obtained a reserve study.  

REALTORS PAY ATTENTION TO THIS NEXT COMMENT.  Realtors are thinking that because the board has not raised the dues, --or our dues are "low", that we have a frugile/budget minded HOA board.  To the contrary.  Our first ever reserve study ,done in 2010, shows as of this year we are $350,000 short in our reserves to sustain the property into the future.  And going into the future, we are to put into reserves at least $150,000 per year to handle the "retirement of the depreciation of assets".   The board had implied for years that they had some of the lowest dues in the area,(so what!)  ..and  how will the new/young and inexperienced first time home owners feel in 5 years when they suddenly get hit with huge "special assessments".  This could cause them to default on their mortages, causing a delayed reaction to this Mortgage crisis situation that plagues our country.

Right now our HOA has only 212  townhomes in it, and collects and spends at least $327,000 on just operating expenses annually. The dues are $132 per month.   They can only raise the dues 10%, per year, and $150,000+ is  needed each year to fully fund the maintenance in the years ahead.  It shows you how poorly the board has planned.  And because so many "investors" came into the property a few years ago, we now have half the property as rentals, with dual families living in them.

Realtors reallllllly need to be on the look out for this looming crisis.  One HOA in Scottsdale is a CONDO development, and my friend just sold her Condo for $53,000 and lost $100,000 because she feared there would be HUGE assessments down the road.  Currently out of  her 600 Condo development, half of them are empty!!!  Realtors in Scottsdale won't even show a place there because of the huge potentital financial risks to maintain that place in the future.

Make sure your board discloses their reserve studies, not their intentions for the upcoming year's dues.

 Renaissance Home Staging -Chandler

Renaissance Home Staging & Redesign

Servering Chandler, Mesa, Tempe, Gilbert, and the Surrounding Phoenix Metro Area.

 

 

 

Dec 23, 2010 06:11 AM
Vanna Siackhasone
Real Estate Brokers of Alaska 907-720-4663 - Anchorage, AK
Anchorage Real Estate 907-720-4663

Great piont Norm! The coffee example helped!  =)

Dec 23, 2010 07:19 AM
Gene Mundt, IL/WI Mortgage Originator - FHA/VA/Conv/Jumbo/Portfolio/Refi
NMLS #216987, IL Lic. 031.0006220, WI Licensed. APMC NMLS #175656 - New Lenox, IL
708.921.6331 - 40+ yrs experience

Norm:  So true .. so true.  There are always two sides of the coin.  And ... I am thrilled to hear about your luck in meeting up with that African Prince.  Think he has any cousins that need assistance??  I know a mortgage banker in Naperville, IL that's real friendly and likes to help people.  Let me check with him first though, to see where you can get ahold of him right now.  He mentioned something about Las Vegas ...

Have a great Holiday!

Gene

Dec 23, 2010 09:10 AM
Iran Watson
Georgia Elite Realty - Marietta, GA
Marietta Real Estate Agent - Photographer

A very sobering thought and one of the reasons I am thankful I don't live/work/sell in an area that had massive run-ups in value that eventually came crashing down.  Not that the Atlanta area doesn't have its own set of problems, namely the tsunami of foreclosures that have and will hit our market.

I think in this case, the values do stand a reasonable chance of making a recovery.  Once these foreclosures make their way through the system, I would imagine people will again start to consider age old tests of value like cost per square foot and replacement cost.  The metro Atlanta area has always had the benefit of dollar for dollar being one of the best bang for buck places to live in the entire country.  Let's just hope  it doesn't take 10 years for things to get back to that point...

Dec 23, 2010 10:06 AM
Norm Werner
Real Estate One - Milford, MI
Helping the first time and every time

Liz brings up a very good point about troubled HOA's and their potential impact on things. Here in Michigan we have a development classification called site condo's. They are sort of a hybrid of regular neighborhoods and condos. With a site condo you own your own parcel and the home on it but you are also part of a condominium association that owns some common areas, like the roads and any park areas or sundivision entrance areas. If everything goes right your shared financial responsibilities are relatively light - road maintenance and insurance on the common areas.

Things have not been gong right for a few years now and many of these site condo projects stalled out and then the developers went belly-up. That left partially built subs with no official HOA yet established and no way to establish one, since the condo rules under which they are chartered require that the development be 75-80% built-out before the HOAtakes over from the developer. The FHA added to the misery by refusing to lend in these stalled out development, so the current owners are trapped and potential new owners can't get financing to continue the build-out. It's a big mess with no end in sight.

I;ve also hit older neighborhoods that were built inthe 70's and 80's with private streets that are now crumbling, causing the HOA's involved to have to resort to huge special assessments for street repairs. Talk about a double whammy - first your house value has dropped 30-40% over the last few years and now you owe $15-20,000 for street repairs, which you will need to pay off in order to sell. There are no happy campers in those subs these days.

Dec 23, 2010 11:59 AM
Phil & Celeste Pafford
PaffordHomes.com, Corona CA - Corona, CA
Corona Short Sale Broker

I guess we all need to agree on the term "value".  While value was obviously inflated, our neighbor sold in 2006 and rented (they weren't smart, they just had to), but it turned into "real value" for them.

Using the term "Never" multiple times is a bit harsh for me.  While I get the point of value and inflation, I also understand history seems to repeat itself... oh it probably won't be for the same reasons, and it may not look identical to what just incurred, but I'm old enough to remember the S&L bailouts in the late 80's?  15 years brings a new generation, and new hopes, dreams and challenges.  ;-)

Dec 23, 2010 12:12 PM
Maya Swamy
Funds Available - Long Beach, CA
Ph.D. Long Beach, CA - fundsavailable.com

After the 1987 stock market crash many business papers headlined how many billions Sam Walton had lost in one day. He responded, "I have lost nothing. Yesterday I owned so many stores, with a certain number of fixtures and a specific invent...ory. Today I own the same. Tomorrow if the stock market goes up 30%, I will have gained nothing. I will still own the same. Someday, if I want to sell a buyer will decide what he wants to pay. That will be the value at time of sale. The difference between what I have spent and what I get on sale alone will determine my loss or gain." The same goes for home values.

Dec 23, 2010 03:18 PM
Chris Olsen
Olsen Ziegler Realty - Cleveland, OH
Broker Owner Cleveland Ohio Real Estate

Hi Norm -- It's hard to let go of opinions, as well all tell ourselves lies or our own version of reality on a daily basis. In fact, there are millions of realities out there -- and I sure don't have a crystal ball to know how life will eventually play out in the housing market.  I do think the long-term systemic challenges seem greater every year as all these divergent issues seem to converge more and more every month.

Dec 23, 2010 03:57 PM
Norm Werner
Real Estate One - Milford, MI
Helping the first time and every time

Thanks all for your comments. Here's a topic that deserves a bit more comment. Several responders here have opined that indeed real estate "values" will come roaring back because real estate appreciation will once again exceed the rate of inflation. They see the real estate market gettign back to the pre-recession level due to this hyper-inflation in real estate prices. Is that a good thing? What do you think? Somehow I can't get my arms around that being something that is good for us.

Dec 24, 2010 01:21 AM
Tim Maitski
Atlanta Communities Real Estate Brokerage - Atlanta, GA
Truth, Excellence and a Good Deal

Jim J in #23 has a great point.  Housing can't increase at double inflation if things like income don't increase more also.  It's the law of exponents.  Small differences in rates of growth turn into hugely different results over long periods of time.  That's what causes bubbles and why corrections are both guaranteed and necessary.

It's why we will get a big crash eventually in the economy.  Debt levels had been rising much quicker than GDP.  The national debt has risen so much more than GDP so there's no way we'll ever be able to pay off our debts.  It's just a mathematical impossibility.  It's the same with housing.  Prices really can't rise on a sustainable level above income growth and inflation.  It might for awhile but it will always have to revert back to the mean.  The longer it goes on, the bigger the crash.

Dec 24, 2010 02:27 AM
Stephen Howell
Coldwell Banker Residential Brokerage - Annapolis, MD
Annapolis MD Homes For Sale 443-994-8043

So, what does this all mean? It means that we all need to let go of the past, give up the thoughts, hopes or dreams that we can wait this out and that the lost value will come back and everything will be as it was before the crash. That's not going to happen. Get over it. Live with it. Get on with life.

Amen!!!

Dec 24, 2010 02:43 AM
Brent Wells
The LivingWell Team - Prosper, TX
Dallas - Fort Worth

Norm,

Good post, but I think a different take on the matter might help. In DFW we have seen over the last 40+ years this same type of lost valuation. It has come back. When you use the TVM or the idea of the lost potential gain cannot be recovered I think you have wandered into the academic and forgotten we are dealing with people. When the markets recover and unemployment recovers and people are optimistic again we will enter a boom cycle. It may take 5,10, or ever 20 years, but it will most definitely happen and we will recover value.

-Brent

Dec 24, 2010 05:05 AM
Norm Werner
Real Estate One - Milford, MI
Helping the first time and every time

Brent, we may recover the lost price over 10-15 years but the value that was there before the bust is gone.

 Think of it this way. If I took a $100,000 and put it into the stock market and the stock that I bought crashed right after I bought, I have lost real value - right then and there. Now if I say, I'll just wait for the market to come back and I wait for 10 years before the stock gets back to the $100,000 price that I paid for it, does that mean I have recouped the value? No, because $100,000 ten years from now doesn't have the same buying power or value that $100,000 has today. Would I have been better off putting the $100,000 under my matress for ten years? If you say that $100,00 now and $100,000 ten years from now are equal in value then I guess that's a good strategy.

You are correct in pointing out that human nature enters into the perception of value lost or gained. I do think that manypeople who are seeing huge losses today will continue in a state of denial long enough for prices to rise, so that they can then delude themselves that they have recovered the lost value.

Dec 24, 2010 06:20 AM