Special offer

The jury may still be out---but the judge is still looking for answers!

By
Home Inspector with Charles Buell Inspections Inc.

The following picture is of a water heater that is doubling as the heater for domestic hot water (sinks, tubs etc) as well as the hot water for the heating system.  These systems are VERY common in my area and Seattle Home Inspectors find them on a huge percentage of Townhouse type structures that have hydronic heating systems.

The jury is still out on the long term practicality of these systems as it makes the water heater work harder than a regular water heater.  The jury is also still out on whether this dual function will result in shorter life spans for heaters that are also more expensive.  I suspect that in about 10 years we will know the answer----mighty glad I missed out on that jury pool.

But back to the picture.

Water heater/hydronic heating system

In this picture you can see pretty much all the components that should be there for the system to function.

1.      The Heater Itself (big strapping white thingy). The system would not accomplish much without it.

2.      Expansion Tank (at the very top center of the picture---just the bottom shows). These tanks (or at least some means of dealing with thermal expansion) are required in most jurisdictions by modern standards. So you will see these whether it is a space heating system or not---on newer installations.

3.      Circulator Pump & Timer (green thingy). This pump circulates water through the system.  It might go to in-floor pipes, in-wall heaters, or wall radiators.

4.      Tempering Valve (grey thingy under the green thingy). While the heating system needs water around 145 degrees to do its job this temperature is WAY to hot to be coming out of your shower head.  The tempering valve allows us to mix a little cold with the hot to regulate the temperature to fixtures throughout the home---typically not more than 120 degrees.  In fact, in Washington State, Licensed Home Inspectors are required to note whenever the temperature is above 120 degrees and recommend appropriate action. Charles Buell, Seattle Home Inspector

For those of you that have REALLY been paying attention you may be saying to yourself, “Where the heck is this ‘timer” he is talking about?”

You mean you don’t see it?  How can that be?

First of all let’s talk about what the timer does. 

Since the heating system does not operate year round, we don’t want water to sit in the pipes for long periods of time.  If we did, bacteria could grow in the pipes----including Legionella bacteria.  With a timer we can circulate the water periodically whether the heating system is calling for heat or not.  The timer can also be used to control circulation during the day or when we go on vacation.  The system will function fine without it but then the circulator might run 24/7---or only when the thermostat called for heat---not the most ideal situation in terms of energy consumption.  Sometimes “control” is a good thing.

Now back to the timer location.

If you don’t see it, I am not surprised----I had a hard time seeing it as well.  It IS there however---behind the green circulator thingy---FACING THE WRONG WAY.  This position makes it almost impossible to operate/set as needed.

The following picture is looking up under the circulator toward the bottom of the expansion tank---and there is the timer---sitting on top of the green thingy.

Hydronic heating system timer

It is not difficult to relocate this timer to a more practical location---just needs an electrician and about an hour of his or her time.

 

Posted by

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Seattle Home Inspector

 

The Human Rights Campaign   QR code for Charles Buell Inspections Inc  ASHI.org

 

WA State, Home Inspector Advisory Licensing Board

Diane Osowiecki
Diane O and Friends - Benchmark Realty - Franklin, TN
Greater Nashville Real Estate

I have never heard of such a heating system never mind seen one....never mind trying to find the timer thing.

Dec 18, 2010 03:44 AM
Belinda Spillman
Aspen Lane Real Estate Colorful Colorado - Aurora, CO
Colorado Living!

Charles,  That setup looks like trouble just waiting to happen.  What if the H2O heater goes out? So much is depending on this one system.  Wow!

Dec 18, 2010 04:22 AM
Steven L. Smith
King of the House Home Inspection, Inc. - Bellingham, WA
Bellingham WA Home Inspector

Mr. Charles,
I wish to inform you that when the time comes to make that decision, judge Nutsy is fully prepared for a lengthy trial and to make a final judgement.

Dec 18, 2010 04:25 AM
Jack Gilleland
Home Inspection and Investor Services, Clayton - Clayton, OH

I can guarantee that this Jack never put in a system like that.  That system would be a boiler with a holding tank that was also used for potable hot water.  But in either case the timer needs to be accessible. ;)

Dec 18, 2010 05:33 AM
Craig Rutman
Helping people in transition - Cary, NC
Raleigh, Cary, Apex area Realtor

Once again, I've learned something new today. The knowledge I get from reading your posts is well worth me coming back for more. Thank you my friend.

Dec 18, 2010 06:11 AM
Paul S. Henderson, REALTOR®, CRS
Fathom Realty Washington LLC - Tacoma, WA
South Puget Sound Washington Agent/Broker!

I guess we learn a little something special with each inspection. Do you still get ah ha moments?

Dec 18, 2010 07:09 AM
James Quarello
JRV Home Inspection Services, LLC - Wallingford, CT
Connecticut Home Inspector

I have seen water heaters used as heating systems in condos, but not in the way you have described. When I have found them, very rare, it is a hydro air system. The water heater supplies hot water to a coil in the air handler. I saw a new house once where they had used an on demand water heater for the baseboard radiators. That is untested territory and the consensus among those professionals I spoke with was it was going fail much sooner due to the extra work.

Dec 18, 2010 07:30 AM
Charles Buell
Charles Buell Inspections Inc. - Seattle, WA
Seattle Home Inspector

Jason, I suspect the verdict will come in fairly quickly.  Since these heaters are doing two jobs, I suspect that if we can get 15 years out of them it will certainly be more cost effective than having both a furnace and a water heater.  Of course they are a good deal cheaper than a furnace.

Diane, these systems are not likely to become popular where heavy air-conditioning is needed.

Belinda, the idea is nothing new---we have had boilers that do both hot water heating and space heating for a long time---this is just an inexpensive (initially) way to do it.

Nutsy, wait by the phone.

Jack---too expensive---too expensive :)

Paul, I for sure do

Jim, this is what I am suspecting as well---but there can be so many factors---including water quality---manufacturer etc.

Dec 18, 2010 07:46 AM
Richard Iarossi
Coldwell Banker Residential Brokerage - Crofton, MD
Crofton MD Real Estate, Annapolis MD Real Estate

Charles,

 I've seen those heating systems around here too. Not many though. I've always wondered about the capacity of the water heater to provide adequate heating, and hot water for showers.

Rich

Dec 18, 2010 09:14 AM
Charles Buell
Charles Buell Inspections Inc. - Seattle, WA
Seattle Home Inspector

Rich, that all comes down to sizing----the BTU capacity of these heaters is quite a lot more than a conventional heater and of course they are almost always going to be gas---for the faster recovery rate.  The heater above is 100,000 BTU's where if all it was doing is providing the domestic hot water, 40,000 BTU's would be sufficient.

Dec 18, 2010 09:30 AM
Mel Ahrens, MBA, Kelly Right Real Estate
Kelly Right Real Estate - Hood River, OR
Customized Choices for your Real Estate Needs

I like the color coded technical term - thingy.

Mel

Dec 18, 2010 10:47 AM
Kate Elim
Dockside Realty - Spotsylvania, VA
Realtor 540-226-1964, Selling Homes & Land a

Hi Charles...Now you're speaking my language.  I know all about thingies.  We have them all over our house including the kitchen.  Some people call them stoves and diswashers.  To me they are just more thingies.

Kate

Dec 18, 2010 01:22 PM
Reuben Saltzman
Structure Tech Home Inspections - Minneapolis, MN
Delivering the Unbiased Truth.

Whenever I find those systems, they're only used as supplemental heat, such as in-floor heat.   Man, that feel great on your toes.  The last one I inspected had the tempering valve installed wrong; 150 degree water at the faucets.  

I actually looked for your blog with the cool image showing the amount of time it takes to scald someone at different temperatures so I could include a link in my report... never found it though.  Any suggestions on how I could search your blogs if I wanted to?

Dec 18, 2010 02:27 PM
Sheila Newton Team Anderson & Greenville SC
Berkshire Hathaway HomeServices - C. Dan Joyner - Anderson, SC
Selling the Upstate since 1989

Hey you stole my word.. I get made fun of all the time for saying thingy... lol... Now I can tell them I'm not the only one....By the way, Why would you EVER install the timer in that location to begin with? what the heck were they thinking.. ??

 

and PS.. when you do a spell check... it does not flag the word thingy.. so it is obviously a real word that we can use as often as we like!!!

Dec 18, 2010 03:07 PM
Charles Buell
Charles Buell Inspections Inc. - Seattle, WA
Seattle Home Inspector

Mel, thingy works of lots of thingies :)

Hi Kate, totally approriate word for so many thingies

Reuben, here is the link to HOT WATER

Sheila, the pump comes with a place to install it in that position---the plumber would have had to have gotten a little more creative to have had it face the other way---or to have had it mounted independent of the pump.

Dec 18, 2010 05:18 PM
Alex Morris - Austin Real Estate Agent
Austin, TX

Any time an inspector says there is a "thingy", my alarm bells sound.  Can you hear them?

Dec 18, 2010 07:57 PM
Reuben Saltzman
Structure Tech Home Inspections - Minneapolis, MN
Delivering the Unbiased Truth.

Thanks for the link, but how could I look that up on my own if I didn't bookmark it?  You might want to add a 'tag' widget to your sidebar.  I've found that widget to be very useful, and it's very unobtrusive.  

Dec 18, 2010 11:11 PM
Jay Markanich
Jay Markanich Real Estate Inspections, LLC - Bristow, VA
Home Inspector - servicing all Northern Virginia

So, the moral of the story is that timing is everything?

Or ready, set, go?

Dec 19, 2010 12:14 AM
Shannon Coe
exp realty of California, Inc. - Oceanside, CA
760-586-5268, San Diego Realtor

I just had an inspection that the water heater strap was perfect, the water heater was

falling apart. LOL.

Shannon Coe Realtor #01489731

WR Properties Brentwood Ca

http://www.ShannonCoe.com

Dec 19, 2010 12:48 AM
Charles Buell
Charles Buell Inspections Inc. - Seattle, WA
Seattle Home Inspector

Alex, I think that is Santa

Reuben it is tagged under "hot water"----I found it by clicking on the "Tags" scrolled down through the list

Jay, something like that

Shannon there can be SOOO many things wrong with water heaters.

Dec 19, 2010 02:43 AM