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Price fixing is an illegal action which was defined in Ron Withers blog , Price Fixing: Un-American.........What Say Ye?

Here is something that is starting to pop up online. Horizontal Price-Fixing in Cyberspace  This is a great example what can take place in cyber space. This article talks about how one company or person can manipulate the general public by comments on their web site stating and slandering a certain industry. This certain web site and the people behind it would make you believe that everyone in this industry can't be trusted, that their pricing is too high, and that they would hide costs unknown to the average consumer. But the sad thing behind this is that this is their opinion, because not "everyone" in any one type of industry would be like this. It comes down to a select few that would be guilty of this. But these companies would try to bring down an industry attacking them in any negative tone, even if they have some proof from the media and news articles. What this group(s) fails to show is the fact that this is not "everyone", but again, a select few.

There is sometimes another agenda when it comes to marketing a "flat fee" model. These companies can actually use this to their benefit and team up with each other. To cut down the other side of the competition which would basically pit them against the general public, making that certain industry look like they all do this. Now, this could stir up feelings and possibly bring more to their site. In either case, they don't care what happens. It's basically like throwing an open bottle of fire ants in the middle of a crowd and not caring who the ants attack. The bottom line is to get their specific model accepted by society, but to also get noticed. As long as they can do this, they will profit from this. Will the consumer do better because of this, not always. This was described above. And another theory which can happen because these so-called price fixing models seem to be honest is that they can create behind- the-scenes conspiracies. Meaning that they set up a certain model not caring if it fails or not, but by profiting if someone comes along and wants to buy their model. This is the scariest of all scenarios. And Bill Gates is someone that can swoop down to buy something like this and argues for these certain points in the chapter of his new book titled "Frictionless Competition". Imagine what would happen then. Have you ever seen an atomic bomb dropped?

This brings me to the real estate and mortgage industries and how this can affect us. Let's take the real estate industry as an example.

The quality question will recur, though, as I discuss the competition issues, for combating the fear of fraud can demand investments in reputation heavy enough to discourage entry. My focus instead, will be the fact that, when competitive rivals, as well as customers, also have rapid access to information about each others' pricing and rapid ability to respond, they may be able to take advantage of it to reach and police anticompetitive coordination.

There are many arguments for each side. But ponder this thought. Questioning why someone would never blink at a decorators fee of $10,000 for planning a new living room or question a charge of $450 per hour from their attorney chokes when confronted with a bill for five percent of the sales price for rapidly and efficiently selling their home, perhaps even at a much higher price than the seller or a flat rate agent might have achieved.

Here is a great point to think about: Any commission job requires a lot of dead-end hours for every minute that results in a profit. This is just my opinion, but would you get the same service from a discount broker charging a flat fee? The discount broker wouldn't be able to advertise as much or spend as much time marketing your house because their budget wouldn't call for it. These models have been around for a decade now. Sure, they exist, but does it sell a house quickly enough. I have heard of many clients cry stating that they missed a bubble or so, because their realtor didn't market their house. Guess who, the discount broker, because there wasn't enough profit in it. Their time and resources were limited because of their profit.

Again, as Ron Withers pointed out in his current blog, Price Fixing: Un-American.........What Say Ye?, these same real estate discount models have also been in the mortgage industry for about the same time.  There 100's and 1,000's of good to excellent loan officers and lenders that would not fit this price fixing model. The same would apply as it would with the real estate discount broker's model. What happens on the mortgage side is that since the lender will be paid a flat fee, they will not push for the tougher loans to close. I hate to say this, but there is that old saying.... "time is money".

Let's look into the life of a lender that would come across a few examples if they were allowed to charge what they thought was fair. Especially for the fact that everything would be disclosed to the client, would be used in each example.

•1.       Loan officer A: This lender has a tough deal that originally started with $5,000 in gross profits. Even the seller was contributing $2,000 to the closing costs. The client was told from the get go that they needed to pay off about $4,500 in collection accounts in order to close. He had only $5,500 to spend and not a penny more. With those collection accounts and his closing costs, he would have needed $9,500. But he told the lender that 2 of the collections totaling $4,000 have been paid off already. As they get closer to settlement, he is finding out that these collection accounts were never paid off, at all. His ex was supposed to have taken care of them. He now needs $9,500 to pay for these collection accounts and his closing accounts with down payment. Its 24 hours from closing and the lender has a decision to make.  He makes a quick decision to basically make nothing on the deal and do a lender credit, which a lender can do even if they aren't getting YSP. He will be paying for his closing costs so he can pay the collection accounts at closing himself. After all said and done, this loan officer and the lender were lucky to make a total of $500 on this transaction. But thank his lucky stars that in example number 1, he at least made something that would carry him and the lender over into a positive mark.

•2.       Loan officer B: This person has the same deal on his plate as did loan officer A in example # 3. Well, it doesn't take him long to decide that he would have to let this deal go and not be able to help this buyer. Why, he needs to move onto the next deal to at least get his flat fee for the next transaction. If he decided to take that particular client on, it would have taken more time which could have cost him a few more transactions at a flat fee or rate. And example # 3 happens more than you think and is living proof within the loan officers that are true professionals. Just the same many realtors are to their profession. 

And for a closing sake of argument, Christine Adler sums it up best when she wrote Being aware of your thoughts. Thoughts can be a powerful tool. But so can those thoughts that are perceived as facts and not opinions.

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75 Comments on A Realtor’s Guide to Price Fixing Commissions:

NOV
16
2006
292,057 Points 110 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Jeff:

Wow!  Where did you find that paper on Horizontal Price Fixing?  The last four lines were potent:

Business students are taught explicitly how to put prices up to where they would be if they were conspiring with their competitors, but in a way that makes it difficult for courts to infer an agreement so they will not land in jail. As commerce moves to cyberspace, so does the potential for anticompetitive coordination. Coordination will take new forms, so antitrust scrutiny must adapt to these developments and find ways to identify the “agreements” reached there that the law can remedy.

In plain words, cyberspace warps the process of price checking and fixing and provides the perfect cloak for the intentional price fixer (online advertising).  One could argue that it is just "good marketing copy" when in reality it is a carefully structured plan to fix the price of a market.

1:10am • #1
110,915 Points 26 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

Ok, Im editing my comments.  I still needed the clarification you provided Brian, on the 'four sentences' issue.  What I do understsand now, after re-reading the case studies used as examples in the link above, is how important it is to make sure this does not become the norm. I know for example, brokerages are not allowed to discuss commissions at all with each other. It's State Law and can be seen as an attempt to price fix. We can all see what commissions everyone is agreeing to with Sellers, because we see the MLS listings where it is clearly stated.

As far as it relating to mortgage lenders, it's even deeper than that.  And Brian hits it right on the head with less experienced people doing the qualifying,keyboarding, to make a loan happen. Computer skills needed, not mortgage skill and experience. We all know of internet companies that have screwed over clients. This is a serious issue for you guys.

Jeff, I guess the hard part is proving that there was discussion amongst the flat fee lenders.  That part does go back to my original hypothetical about the situation. Now that the airlines have been 'caught' albeit when they used a system the rest of us didn't have, would these lenders be able to get away with a similar system, or just do the behind the scenes work with no computer software 'smoking gun' to get them in trouble?

1:38am • #2
292,057 Points 110 Featured Posts Outside Blog

No, Carol, it makes complete sense.  Your question is valid and the topic can be confusing.  I think it is a two part answer:

1- The four sentences are a conclusion to a paper about the issue of deceptive adverytising and the hidden agenda of bringing down competition through negative advertising.  It also states discusses that price-fixing can be checked and double checked more quicly in the cyber world.  eg- a broker in South Carolina can constantly check on a broker in California to insure that they are adhering to the price-fixing model.

2- The question about where money is concerned?   Now more than ever, the need for solid financial counseling, careful planning with use of the mortgage as a MAJOR financial instrument can save consumers tens of thousands of dollars. Fixing the price will breed "clerks" who process paper, not research advice, offer a tailored mortgage recommendation, and WORK hard to place a loan at the best terms available to the consumer.  In short, price fixing drives the talent away from the mortgage industry.

The common misconception that a mortgage is just a commodity is akin to saying an MLS listing and an open house or two with color flyers sells houses, so why pay 5%?

Did that answer your question? I tried to lay off the "jargon"

3:11am • #3
1,194,380 Points 89 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Called Shot Master

price fixing... just don't do it.

Good luck to the discounters with their business model... time is money, you get what you pay for.  enuff trite sayings?

 

3:30am • #4
733,769 Points 231 Featured Posts Outside Blog Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master
i'll make an abbreviated version of the comment i just left on Brian Brady's blog...i want to see our clients take a pay cut at their jobs.  you're right that it's somehow okay for a decorator to get paid and an attorney and on and on....but commissions are supposedly out of hand.  i still don't get it.  i even asked a client once who wanted a discount, if he would take a pay cut at work. he was appalled and said of course not, he's worth it.  and i just looked at him.  he backtracked and agreed that it's worth the full commission to get me and not joe blow agent.
5:35am • #5

Jeff B. & Brian B.

Now you're talking! I am somewhat humbled by your follow-on posts to my Price Fixing: Un-American....What Say Ye?

This subject matter needs to be near and dear to the heart for anyone in the Real Estate or Mortgage Industry...or for that matter any industry. Price fixing just doesn't cut it.  If you are a professonial at what you do then you need to hone up your understanding of the ramifications of price fixing within an industry and even how this issue can be detrimental to the welfare of another.

Both of you have eloquently and very effectively taken my post on Price Fixing to the next level. My compliments to both of you. I like your style! As a matter of fact, so much that I am going to post this comment in both Blogs. Furthermore, considering the attention it deserves I am going to add a postscript to my post to reference your individual blogs.

Jeff and Brian, I'll lay on the sugar....you are a credit our industry and the epitomy of a great loan officer/broker. My hat is off to both of you.

7:09am • #6
1,194,380 Points 89 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Called Shot Master

Carole,  You see the total commission in the MLS?  You wrote:

"We can all see what commissions everyone is agreeing to with Sellers, because we see the MLS listings where it is clearly stated." 

We can't don't....  we only know what the buyer broker fee the seller / listing agent is offering.  When you see the HUD you know what the total commission was but that's not published anywhere... 

It is always fun.. to guess before closing... then you see the HUD hopefully the day before closing...

  • Y% that's what I thought...
  • X%  
  • he did not do a thing...Nada. Nothing. He really was a detriment to his seller, of course he's not taking a comission... he's lucky to see a HUD... no wonder they don't want him at the closing. He's making the big bucks on their buy..... bet they will list that with someone else in a few years.  
  • WOW X% I guess that seller did want to sell
  • wow wonder how they got that old skinflint to pay that?
  • I've heard that's how she gets the listings
  • What a professional and you can see the seller recognized that!

 

7:33am • #7
280,521 Points 18 Featured Posts Outside Blog Called Shot Master

Jeff,

At the risk of saying "Great Post", Great post.

"oligopoly" I must confess I have never heard this word before, but read about it with great interest.

  1. I have to agree with Carole about the "proving" part. The reason this problem is so prevalant in both industries is that nothing can be "proved"  Everything regarding Realtors fees and Mortgage fees are almost "secret", so if the public see something slamming the fees of either, they are very likely to assume that the slammer is speaking the truth.
  2. Carole, we cannot "see" the total commission as Maureen mentions above, at least where I am. We can only see what the Listing Broker offers.
  3. It would be my opinion, and I am sure that a lot of people will disagree, that we should all be able to show our Fees and defend them ourselves in whatever we do.
  4. On the other hand, It is rare to call someone in "any" profession, be it Hairdresser, Doctor, Lawyer, Consultant, Engineer, Seamstress, Plumber, Electrician, etc...and actually recieve an actual "price". What you would get is a price quote, depending on the different services that you needed. (excuse me, with Doctors, you would not even get that)
  5. I think of any Internet or Community fee for service business the same as I think of "any" competition. It doesn't bother me because I know what I bring to the table. If people want to believe everything they hear, then probably they won't be working with me. But there are plenty that will.
7:52am • #8
733,769 Points 231 Featured Posts Outside Blog Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

Brian..... you hit the nail right on the head. And just because one fixes the price, doesn't mean it would stay that way or the same price. Margins get slimmer, therefore companies walking out of the model, because they would loose agents or loan officers. And not be able to attract the good ones, which would also fold up their business model. As we all have said, this has been going on close to a decade.

Carole..... Carole, it will never become the norm, for several reasons. The only time that this model can flourish is in a down market. In the 14 years that I have been doing this, this is around my 4th down market per se. They lurk around and then dry up. Again, this model is also better suited for new or newer agents that need that 1 deal to survive.

In regards to your last part and question... yes, this could take place amongst the lenders that work this model. Just as it did in the airlines. Here is another example of where it happened.

: More Indictments in DRAM Price-Fixing Probe  In this article, The DOJ claims that three people high up participated in the conspiracy through a series of telephone calls and meetings.

As a result of the telephone calls and meetings, all three agreed to help rig an online auction of DRAM chips by either not submitting a bid or submitting intentionally high bids. What does this have to do with this topic? Again, in any model, companies and individuals can manipulate that industry. They can sometimes dictate price, even if their model is a fixed cost.

Brian........ thanks very much for explaining the rest for Carole. I am still tired, after going to bed at 3:30 am.... lol  Brian...everything else was said to the "T".  thanks

Maureen...... another awesome point that I barely touched on. Time is Money....  need you say more, hence why these models don't hang around. Do you think a mechanic is going to give you the same price that was quoted after they go back in and find that you needed 8 hours more of work???  Now, this is not exactly how the mortgage industry works. For the most part...MOST of us, the price is agreed up front. But we build some of this into the price, when it comes to certain types of deals. Under the other model of price fixing.... these types of deals would be left by the road side. I have seen it happen even when there isn't price fixing, which is really said. It's called profit for time spent.

Leigh.......  lol  It's sad but we have to laugh at it. I would like for these clients to tell us how we make our money then.

On the same note, in the lending industry, this is were bait and switch can also affect my plan and in trying to help that client. Making it look like they have this price fix model and then raise everything. In a true price fix model, they won't change the price....but there will be others out there that make others seem that their model is price fixed. Now you have a major problem, especially when they change the rate and fees.

Ron.........  thanks for the passion that you bring to Active Rain and your thoughful comments to this blog. Everything that you have mentioned is right on.

Maureen........ I am still foggy and tired... lol  But your last few points are so true. And that is kind of what I just said or how I explained it when I was commenting on your first comment. Thanks for the great input.

8:03am • #9
130,775 Points Outside Blog

Leigh is right, they will not take a pay cut why should we?

I do know that you can go to some of their websites and we will see what they are being paid. Most sellers go to them that have been burn (so to say) from another realtor. I do not know if it was the pressure, but more than likely they did not listen to their client and now we have a bad rape. So, flat rate is here.

8:39am • #10
787,589 Points 20 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master
Jeff - Great Blog and interesting article at the link.  As with any business model, the business owner needs to plan what services and/or products they offer, have an excellent grasp of what their fixed and variable expenses are, decide on their profit margin and price accordingly.  One thing that has always "bothered" me is the assumption that x% is always the right fee to charge - I'm not saying it is, or is not, but it seems to be based on history and also seems to be arbitrary.
8:51am • #11
110,915 Points 26 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog
Maureen no you are absolutely right, I don't see what the total commission is, only my part, or any other buyer agent's part; and that is really all I care about. But it's true, the seller's agent could be getting a higher or even lower commission than I am. But the point is, we can all guestimate as you say, and it's rare when we aren't all in the same ballpark anyway. Personally (and I shouldn't brag about this to sales people) I rarely look at the commission until or unless I'm getting ready to write an offer. Or, I'm going to go on a listing apptmt. and I pull up actives and solds and one part of the equation is, on these properties, what commission was offered to the buyer broker. It's a long way of saying (not unusual for me to be long winded, sry) that MLS is the closest we get to commission info from other brokerages. See, I can wrap up a point even with no sleep!  And no Jeff I have not found my pillow yet
9:21am • #12
733,769 Points 231 Featured Posts Outside Blog Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

Karen..... oligopoly n : (economics) a market in which control over the supply of a commodity is in the hands of a small number of producers and each one can influence prices and affect competitors

Karen....in regards to your number 1....?? So untrue. It's only hidden to the end by some unscrupulous lender at times. But by law, all fees have to be disclosed. Unfortunately some people got hell bent about YSP. And like I have said time and time again, that is what the APR is for. The people with these price fixing models fail to bring up APR. Like Brian Brady said in his blog, it's called advertising. All facts aren't shown or talked about. Just like politics. All you really need is the rate and the APR. This is how can shop in regards to fees. This is the indicator to what kind of deal that you are getting, as long as you are comparing the same program. Ex.. 30 yr fixed rate to a 30 yr fixed rate.

thanks for your input

Susan..... again... it's those bad apples that create this.

Tony....... you make some valid points. In my business practice, it doesn't always come down to what is the right fee to charge. But if I have someone that I am spending 10 hours on that week, just to straighten out their credit, searching through every program to get them that deal.... and structuring it so they will be safe and have the best out there.. this can sometimes dictate price. And so many fail to realize this. You will NOT get a fixed price company to do all of this for that fee. They will let it go by the waste side and move onto the next. I have seen this and worked with a few that have done this. I have seen the living proof. And it's sad...but it happens. This is not professional then, but it's their income and TIME.

thanks for the great input.

9:28am • #13
1,194,380 Points 89 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Called Shot Master
Carole,  Thanks for clearing that up. I think there may be markets where you can see the total commission but I would think they would be mostly gone now. I think long, long ago you could see that but it should not be public...semi public since we are competitors.  
9:36am • #14
2 Featured Posts

Price fixing is alive...all over the place. Ever wonder about drug prices? The government does now that Medicare Part D is in effect.

We've always had a small flat fee/discount broker operate in our area. They come and go. None have staying power. Probably because in good times they can survive on their up front fee and the property sells. In back times, the upfront fee is not enough.

Our MLS did away with full commission disclosure probably 20 or 25 years ago. I know when I first started in the mid '70's, we disclosured the entire amount and then a division of that amount. Naperville listings usually had a 7% commission with the listing agency keeping 70% of the commission. They didn't want people getting into our market. Guess that didn't work.

Commissions have come down as real estate prices have gone up. Now, however, as we're in a slow market, I'm seeing those amounts, especially for buyer agents/agencies increase.

The internet provides fast research abilities. That's good and bad, if used for nefarious purposes.

9:38am • #15
198,363 Points 12 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Attended Rain Camp

Jeff,  An excellent blog.  I'm afraid, however, that the public doesn't really understand.  Many people are always looking for something for nothing.  I was just talking to my hairdresser about the last time she sold her house.  It was listed with a discont broker, who didn't sell it.  They were rude to her, and didn't do much more than provide a sign.  The best part is, she paid him for the flat fee model and he was supposed to refund $500 because it didn't sell when she went with an agent on his approved list.  He charged a referral fee to the agent (at an assumed 25% he received $1500) and kept the $500.  The original flat fee pricing was $850.  He made much more money by not selling the house than he would have by selling it....  Crazy! However, it would actually be in this discounters best interest NOT to have price fixing. 

9:41am • #16
292,057 Points 110 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Karen:

The mortgage brokers have fully disclosed their fees to the consumer for years; it's the law.

Eileen:  Price fixing is alive and well.  It is being manipulated by lead companies in our industry.  They will offer lists of "ethical brokers" who subscribe to their pricing models.  Just an old-fashioned shakedown.

9:49am • #17
1,194,380 Points 89 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Called Shot Master

Brian wrote: Eileen:  Price fixing is alive and well.  It is being manipulated by lead companies in our industry.  They will offer lists of "ethical brokers" who subscribe to their pricing models.  Just an old-fashioned shakedown.

Huh?  What are "ethical" brokers subscribing to these days? I am not asking for a number, do not want a number but high or low?  High so that there is $ to pay their exorbitant fees or low so that they can tell the client it is a good deal? 

9:51am • #18
280,521 Points 18 Featured Posts Outside Blog Called Shot Master

Brian,

I read your YSP post the other day and although I did not comment at the time, I have to say that it was the "first" time I actually got a handle on what exactly goes on. And I think that speaks for itself. 

It was an extremely well written post and done in "laymans terms".

I think it should be copied and made mandatory for all Mortgage Companies to hand out with the GFE because most consumers simply do not understand it. And therein lies the actual problem, in my estimation.

9:57am • #19

Jeff B

Your above response to Tony was so right-on and profound to me. I want to give everyone an example of what you are referring to.

"Tony....... you make some valid points. In my business practice, it doesn't always come down to what is the right fee to charge. But if I have someone that I am spending 10 hours on that week, just to straighten out their credit, searching through every program to get them that deal.... and structuring it so they will be safe and have the best out there.. this can sometimes dictate price. And so many fail to realize this. You will NOT get a fixed price company to do all of this for that fee. They will let it go by the waste side and move onto the next. I have seen this and worked with a few that have done this. I have seen the living proof. And it's sad...but it happens. This is not professional then, but it's their income and TIME."

My example: I have a soft spot in my heart for the first-time buyers particularily with the dilemna's they face into today's market. I routinely participate in Mortgage Revenue Bond (MRB) and Down Payment Assistance (DPA) Programs, more particularily S.H.I.P. (State Housing Initiatives Partnership). These are State and County Affordable Housing programs that have set terms and rates that are designed to protect these buyers/borrowers.

I just originated another one (probably need my head examined), 3 times the work for a fraction of the income. I spent 8-10 hours profiling and dealing with the borrowers credit challenged situation before I even originated it. The borrower is getting a 30 year fixed rate at 6.15% and $35,000 in combined assistance. I will have another 10+ hours invested in the transaction thru closing.  My income, maybe $800 if I am lucky!

Do you think these fixed fee lenders/brokers would touch this...absolutely Not! Bottom line is do your job, provide service and a little compassion, take the good with the bad and move on...What Goes Around, Comes Around!

10:05am • #20
733,769 Points 231 Featured Posts Outside Blog Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

Carole......  I am fed exing you a pillow. It comes down to disclosing it to the client.... as long as the client understands and understands your services.

The problem with the fixed price models is that the client thinke he or she is getting the same help....the same advice...the same advertising...and in your case as a realtor, the same exposure. And this is not my opinion, I sit down with clients many of times that have told me that they will never go back to a discount broker. And those are the reasons why. And this is why they don't flourish, because people talk. It has nothing to do with bad apples in this case, for the most part...but the model itself. It limits the realtor or loan officer to spend more time on that file. Point Blank....

Maureen....... you would know more about that than me. thanks for sharing.

Eileen...... your point at the end is awesome. "The internet provides fast research abilities. That's good and bad, if used for nefarious purposes."

Chris...... thanks for the nice compliment. Much appreciated. And yes, I agree.....the public doesn't fully understand. But it doesn't help when these flat fee shops or individuals try to discredit the actual industry. And it's easy for them to try and accomplish this more because of the internet. As someone said.. "warp speed"  Word gets out quicker and getting the real facts to people so they can understand might take a little longer now. That is the only disadvantage.  thanks for sharing.

Brian.......  good to reiterate that point.... The mortgage brokers have fully disclosed their fees to the consumer for years; it's the law.

Maureen...... what Brian is saying is that these companies or individuals will tell others that Wells or Countrywide is on their list. As an endorsement. Is it true?  Nobody would know the difference.

10:05am • #21
292,057 Points 110 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Maureen:  I would direct you here and ask you to read this brief article by Jack Guttentag to see what's up the sleeves of the modern day labor organizers.

Karen:  Thanks for the compliments about the Realtor's Guide to the YSP Thingy.  I am having them printed compliments of Fidelity National Title.  I'll be sure to get you 50 or 100 copies when they are available. 

10:15am • #22
292,057 Points 110 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Ron:

I guess it isn't all about "taking $10,000 scalps" is it?  Good work, Sir. 

10:25am • #23

Great point Tony.  I think too many people are getting 'Price Fixing' and 'Fixed Cost For Service' mixed up...and I really don't get what price fixing, proper, has to do with mortgage brokering or real estate sales?  It's a free market for consumers to choose which product, the service provider, and their price. There is simply too much open competition for anyone to 'price fix' on an insider industry level.  Furthermore, price fixing involves collusion and deceit among multiple entities for their limited and direct benefit, i.e. they price fix for higher profits...This is the polar opposite of a 'fixed price for services' model in an open market of transparency.       

The astute business owners understand they can't be everything to everyone, and that no single price can cover every product for every consumer....Sound business owners dial into and serve a niche, they identify the variable and fixed costs within that niche, and price the relative products and service accordingly.  If my products, policies, service, and price don't fit a particular consumer, they may shop else ware.  Im not calling the competition and telling them to raise prices to 'influence' the market into paying more for our related service.  

I read Ron Withers post as well, which cites a source authored in 1996, when the Internet was about 1 year old.  Back then there were a relatively savvy few who could manipulate the relatively small amount of data available, which was fertile ground to price fixing...via collusion and deceipt.  

Today, in the age of information, the net has evolved into the transparent marketplace due the almost unquantifiable resources and information.  Dialing into what is good and sound over what is manufactured and manipulated is exponentially easier for the consumer to navigate.  

'Price fixing' is an industrial age practice that would be identified and banished as unethical before it could gain an ounce of traction or marketshare in this information age circa 2006.   

Offering a 'fixed a price for services' within a transparent arena is a niche business model for the consumer to shop and compare against all other types of providers for the same service. If this model fits the consumer, they will buy it. 

In the end, Price Fixing is an illegal practice, involving businesses driving up prices for a service in collusion with others in the industry for their direct gain. 

Couldn't many of the 'average weekly interest rate' figures that are advertised via Bankrate.com (and many others) be construed as "Price Fixing'?  Since these figures are based on the average rates of closed loans, not what rates that were truly available?  Suggesting to the general consumer that they should be looking for these rates as 'a fair price'...rates that were already sold and with great possibility are inflated over wholesale averages?  Isn't this preconditioning a consumer to accept a higher rate and thus cost, than what they may truly qualify for? 

A 'fixed price for services business' is a business model carefully constructed for a niche of buyers to drive down prices due to transparent, fair, well thought, economically practical and ethical business process methods...see 'have an excellent grasp of fixed and variable expenses, decide on profit margin, and price accordingly').  It takes an astute businessman to operate under these parameters...and just because you are in the industry, doesn't mean you are a good businessman (or women). 

Price fixing, fixed pricing, salesman, businessman.   Although the words are similar, the concepts and principles are not.  Alas, it is hard to teach old dogs new tricks ;)

 

10:50am • #24

Brian:

Thanks, absolutely and contrary to what may be perceived to be "popular belief." In relating back to your post:

The People's Mortgage Kollectiv

I would wonder what Professor Guttentag's response would be in a debate where my example was cited. Where would these folks  be if flat or fixed fees were legislated!

10:53am • #25
292,057 Points 110 Featured Posts Outside Blog
463 views and it's only 9AM on the West Coast?  Wow!
11:10am • #27
110,915 Points 26 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog
Jeff Corbett, the only thing I want to add here is this: price fixing among brokers has been prosecuted within the last five years. That is not exactly Industrial Age. We all have to be aware (at least us Realtors® who are bound by our State Laws) as to what we can and cannot do and price fixing is most definitely identified in those laws. At least in Ohio.
11:26am • #28

Agreed...my point was industrial age practices will not survive in the information age...which you have succinctly pointed out. 

Price fixing is deceitful, illegal, and should be punished.   

11:31am • #29

It's 'Seller beware' in Housing

Buyers have the upper hand as owners cling to old optimism about pricing

By Alex Markels

Posted Sunday, October 29, 2006

Roger Maehler has good reason to feel smug about the panoramic mountain views from his new backyard.

"I think I got a good deal," the Scottsdale, Ariz., resident says of the acre-plus adobe ranchette he snagged last week for $655,000-a 23 percent discount from the original $850,000 asking price.

Complete with swimming pool, spa, and a big-screen TV in the great room, the sprawling five-bedroom property was high on his list when he began shopping for a new home in May. But like many buyers these days, Maehler decided to hold off and see how the weakening market shook out over the summer. "I guess it was worth the wait," he says.

Since prices topped out in July, the housing downturn now underway in many parts of the country has already lopped $10,000, or 4.3 percent, off the median price of an existing home, the largest dollar decline the National Association of Realtors has ever recorded. Prices of newly built homes have slumped even more, sinking by 15.5 percent since their April peak, according to the Commerce Department.

Contrarians. While some areas like Houston and Seattle have bucked the trend, prices in once hot markets like Boston are now down by more than 10 percent from their high point. The same goes for parts of the Phoenix area, where the number of homes on the market has more than doubled to 45,000 since last October.

"I literally could have spent eight hours a day, five days a week looking at houses," says Maehler, who toured more than 30 properties before making a bid.

Indeed, the national inventory of 4.3 million unsold homes now stands at about a seven-month supply, a glut some economists say will persist until sellers make meaningful cuts in their asking prices. "Buyers want more than the traditional 2 to 5 percent price reduction before they sign on the dotted line," says Gregory Miller, chief economist for SunTrust Bank, who doesn't expect a significant reduction in inventory until early next year.

That assumes, of course, that sellers like Zaher El-Assi are willing to play along. Even after more than a year with his condo on the market, the Boston resident has steadfastly refused his real-estate agent's pleas to lower the $799,000 price. "I just want to see if I can get the right price," he says of the two offers he has turned down already.

People like El-Assi are "the seller's equivalent of the Looky Lou," says Jason Weissman, his frustrated broker, who estimates that as many as a third of sellers in the Boston area aren't serious about pricing their homes to sell.

Such inflexibility worries economists like Mark Zandi, who says it could take a "Roto-Rooter" to finally flush stubborn sellers-and their market-clogging inventory-from real-estate listings.

In the short run, he expects the market could stabilize somewhat as new construction slows and dejected sellers temporarily pull their homes off during the slow winter season. "But it could very well be a dead-cat bounce," the Moody's Economy.com chief economist says of the chance that a strong economy and persistent inflation will push up mortgage interest rates-just as sellers move to relist their houses in the spring. If that happens, "it'll come right out of housing prices again."

12:00pm • #30
447,918 Points 36 Featured Posts Outside Blog Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

Jeff,

I wish I could comment on just the last of your blog. I love it when it's obvious that good people understand and practice what I believe in and preach.

For 20 years I had four rules on my wall dictating how my office would behave.

Rule 1. We protect the license above everything.

Rule 2. We protect the client above everything but the license.

Rule 3. We protect the referral source above everything except the client and the license.

Rule 4. We protect the commission above everything except the referral source, the client, and the licence.

Obviously, I'd have paid those collections through paying or dropping other charges. I'd have done this under rule #1 if I thought the problem wasn't the clients fault or under rule #2 if it protected my referral source even if the client was at fault.

If I'd seen the problems coming in I'd have structured the loan to free up the buyers cash to pay the collections using either the sellers contribution or (dare I say it) the Yield Spread Premium (YSP)! However, options are a mute question if I don't control my fees. Without that control I don't get paid, my salesman doesn't get paid, my referral source (normally a REALTOR®) doesn't get paid, the seller doesn't sell his home, and the buyer doesn't get a home! All of this in the name of protecting the consumer? Well just who is the consumer? Personally, I thought it was the buyer!

Now we're back to price fixing. To be honest, I've read this blog and Ron's, and due to coming late to the table I've already read Brian's. There seems to be a free mixing of "price fixing" and restricted flat fees.

If we're talking about the Sherman Act as enforced by the FTC, despite the problems with the act, I say nail the violators! Conspiracy to control the market is anti-American, but get them all there is more than one way to fix the market. Two stupid brokers talking about their fees over coffee may be criminal but it doesn't hurt anyone.

As to imposing flat or fixed fees on the market, we only have to look at our own history to see this is never good, it never works! No matter what they call it, and believe me it will have a noble name and a righteous preamble it will only cost the public and hurt the masses.

Who among us is so foolish that they think that imposing limits on brokers fees will reduce consumers cost. The only people so naive that I know of still believe that really is Santa Clause standing on the corner ring the bell.

Bill

William J Archambault Jr

The Real Estate Investment Institute

http://www.reii.org

12:11pm • #31
3 Featured Posts
What's left to say, except I sure know how to get comments on MY blog in the future... talk commissions!  :-)
12:33pm • #32
733,769 Points 231 Featured Posts Outside Blog Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master
One thing is for sure you know what you are talking about, this couldnt of been explained any better. Us honest mortgage professionals are out there.... and more than others think, because the bad apples get all the publicity.
12:50pm • #33
3 Featured Posts

Wouldn't it be great to make 6,7 or 8% on every listing and not even have to explain to the seller why you are worth so much? 

Unfortnuately, or fortunetly the reality is that there is competition. Unfortunatly, because competitors take money out of our pockets, but fortunately, because it pushes us to become better at what we do.

Trust me, it drives me nuts to lose business to another broker only because they discounted their comission, but I know that people get what they pay for. You can have a hamburger at Mc Donald's for $1.99 or one at Morton's for $15 and although they are both hamburgers, and they are both essentially a meat patty between two breads, the quality of the meat, the flavor, the presentation is far better at Morton's.

Well, it works the same way in real estate. A seller that pays a flat fee or a low percentage, is going to have a reduced chance of selling their property just because the broker they hired has limited resouces to work with (less money for advertising, less compensation to offer cooperating brokers, etc).

In today's market, when buyers don't jump at properties just because they are on the market, a professional Realtor representing a seller needs to be creative and to be creative, you need economic resources to allow you to advertise properly and effectively, offer incentives, etc. As a listing broker, we need to keep in mind that a Realtor working with a buyer, must put the clients' interests ahead of their, which means that they cannot avoid showing a home because the commission offered is low, but be honest with yourself... if you see two homes that look exactly alike in the same community and one offers 3% and another one offers 2%, which one will you show more enthusiastically?  

Competition is healthy, but sellers will realize (and I think they are already realizing) that they get what they pay for and that a broker who will make little or no money in the sale of their property, will do little or no work to sell it.

1:18pm • #34
292,057 Points 110 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Yael:

I liked your McDonald's/Morton's analogy.  As a lover of both the McDonald's Hamburger and the Morton's steak, I will tell you that they are similar ONLY inasmuch as they are meat and bun and the price difference is worth it.

Let me give you a real life example, Yael:

"We think real estate is a serious business and handle every transaction with skill, care and diligence"

"Sell your home for a flat fee of $495"

Wouldn't you pay more for the first value proposition?

1:53pm • #35
Who sells more hamburgers?  Mortons or McD's?
1:59pm • #36

Brian & Yael:

Hey that just might be a hellva deal for an Arizona Oceanfront Property......only thing is....the number of days on the market would be a killer!

2:06pm • #37
Wow, I find it hard to wrap my head around these topics.  But I must say the information is incredible.  Thank you for the post Jeff. You certianly helped me to understand better not only what the function of a lbroker is but what you pay for.
2:32pm • #38
292,057 Points 110 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Ron:

Leave my song alone.

Signed,

George Strait

3:10pm • #39
937,515 Points 361 Featured Posts Outside Blog Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

Jeff, took me a while to get to the bottom of these comments. You know I never concern myself with what my competitors may or may not be charging for their services. If I did it would drive me crazy and place me in a position of feeling like I need to negotiate my commission to compete. A couple of years ago I actually got caught up in thinking I was going to get beat out by discounters and I started reducing my commission. I was walking into listings with the mind set that I may have to reduce and because of that I did. Then I got smart and decided to concentrate on selling my services, at my price and all of a sudden I never had to reduce again.

So discounters really don't bother me at all anymore. I just do my thing. Attitude is everything.  

BTW great post. 

3:53pm • #40
733,769 Points 231 Featured Posts Outside Blog Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

Kaushik...... you are exactly right.....

Andrea....  thanks for stopping by....

William..... Gosh, it's just great to have you stop by with all of your wisdom and experience. Everything you mention makes sense.  thanks again

Carol........ lol  thanks for the laugh...... commissions....commissions...commissions

Eddy.......... thanks for the compliment and kind words.

Yael..... what a great analogy. And boy, will I pay extra for a good hamburger or steak..... isn't that what life is about in so many ways. People are willing to pay extra for better quality and service. As long as you tell them about it. Bottom line.

Mary..... my pleasure and thanks for stopping by. But curious... you said...Wow, I find it hard to wrap my head around these topics. Mary.....what are you talking about?  You make my head spin with you awesome blogs....but so much information.

Bryant..... I know you feel in regards to commissions and what you make. There are some of us in this business that can get what we some what demand, because we are worth that. It is because of who you are, your follow up skills, your professionalism.... and your honesty / being straightforward.

And thanks for the compliment.

 

5:23pm • #41
3 Featured Posts

Jeff:

McDonald's selling more hamburgers is the equivalent to a Realtor getting more listings, which I agree with you, a discount broker may do. However, we all know that getting a lisitng is not the same as selling a listing... 

 

6:03pm • #42

Very true Yael...Cool name by the way...unique.

As far as the 'discount' role, plz see my newest post...that is if you haven't boycotted my presence too ;)

6:11pm • #43
733,769 Points 231 Featured Posts Outside Blog Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

Price Fixing - A term used by the FTC and DOJ when they find two competitors charging the same, otherwise known as "what the market will bear".

Reminds me of the SEC pursuing "insider trading".  They can't really define it, but they can prosecute it.

7:56pm • #44

Yael...

"Well, it works the same way in real estate. A seller that pays a flat fee or a low percentage, is going to have a reduced chance of selling their property just because the broker they hired has limited resources to work with (less money for advertising, less compensation to offer cooperating brokers, etc).

"if you see two homes that look exactly alike in the same community and one offers 3% and another one offers 2%, which one will you show more enthusiastically? "

Insinuating that brokers may not be as 'enthusiastic' to show houses based on 'lower commission offerings' is not the best choice of words here...this treads into 'steering' territory.   

9:30pm • #45
27 Featured Posts

I was just scrolling through and I didn't see a comment from me hear yet.  Very strange indeed.

Remember - smiling faces hide the evil that lurks inside.

Just thought I would mention that, but remember some people let the evil flow anyways...

9:54pm • #46
NOV
17
2006
244,910 Points 56 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

Jeff, Excellent post. Price Fixing has been and will continue, however I don't concern myself with others and what they charge. The one time I did, it taught me something that I won't forget...it was the toughest transaction and not worth the time spent. I decided at that point that I was worth more than that. 

In fact, I have been known to turn listings down...if the seller is not negotiable in their listing price, commission or staging then I leave it to the hungry ones that don't know any better. 

My Sellers and Buyers know the experience and ethics to a transaction that I provide and they feel it's worth paying for which in the end brings them more money. 

11:59am • #47
733,769 Points 231 Featured Posts Outside Blog Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

Robert...... scrolling?  lol  I feel like Active Rain has been my first job.....  I can't wait until I sleep during the weekend. But thanks for stopping by.

Gena...... thanks for the compliment. This has to do with both the real estate industry and the mortgage industry. And I agree with you on the 2nd part..... it doesn't bother me that much that people set up these fix pricing models. It's the fact they make everything thing that they will get the same SERVICE and attention with this flat fee. thanks..

 

12:23pm • #48
27 Featured Posts

Sleep?  What is that?  I am not sure if this pic is copyrighted, but I couldn't resist...

6:04pm • #49
27 Featured Posts

Jeff B.,

Man, too many Jeffs now.  Well, I finally got a chance to read through some of the comments and I will admit I did not get to them all (at least not in detail). 

OK, the McD's/Morton's analogy was good and goes to show that price fixing/fee for service will not drive down prices, only service.

Yes, McD's may sell more hamburgers, but who has the better quality?  Who has the better service?  Who, ultimately provides a much better deal?  I would say Morton's wins in all of them. 

All "fee for service" will do is drive down service to match the fee.

For transparency, I have recommended that Upfront Mortgage Brokers be the guide, due to how the are already transparent and have been for years.  It was started by Jack Guttentag, but a little while ago the Mortgage Professor has spun the UMB off and the UMBA was formed. 

Guttentag has recently advocated price fixing (or was that fee for service?) after the spinoff.  Jeff C. on his own post said UMBs were the highest principles and practices, so I have been curious about what he is doing with this animal he started.  He claimed he was exploring a relationship with UMBs. 

In fact, here is a copy of his comment to me...

Robert....as a UMB, you subscribe to the highest principles and practices that I tend to 'preach'.  Your methods are as solid as they come.  As long as you redisclose the GFE 72 hrs prior to closing, you are good.  We are exploring a mutual relationship with the UMBA.  

I recently inquired the President of the UMBA and asked if this was true and he said he never heard of this.  So, I asked Jeff C. to let me know why and offered him a chance to provide input. 

He then posted a comment quickly...

Comment:
I have had superficial email conversations with J Guttentag (the 'anti American' Pinko) regarding his thoughts on XBroker and potential affiliation.
There you go.
Keep digging.
End of comment.

I am left wondering...Why the tone?  Did I ever accuse him of anything? NO...I simply inquired as to the UMB association to find out if it was so and the status.  Why is a UMB advocate calling Guttentag a "pinko"?  I must say, as a UMBA member, I would be appalled to develop any kind of relationship with Jeff C./XBroker after this.

10:45pm • #50
292,057 Points 110 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Nobody called Prof. Guttentag a "pinko".  I specifically said in my post, The Peoples Mortgage Kollectiv, this:

Jack, you're usually brilliant but you're wrong on this one.  In today's ever-changing, confusing mortgage market the last thing we need are less service providers.  Jack, price fixing is never "a good cause";  it's Socialism.

I made senationalistic comments (come on, guys, just a case of classic advance marketing) about labor organizers in our industry and thier explanations about maligning good brokers sounding like the Bolshevik Revolution :

Some good apples get bruised while making sensationalist comments?  I guess those labor organizers would say "Power to the people!  You are casualties in the revolution!" (Kind of makes you think of 1917 Russia, doesn't it?)

I NEVER called Prof. Jack a Pinko; I criticized his article. I refer to that as intellectual discourse.  

11:34pm • #51
NOV
18
2006
27 Featured Posts

Brian,

That is why XBroker (Jeff C.) mentioned the "pinko" thing.  I was just pointing out how Jeff C. called Guttentag a pinko, yet tells me that UMB is the highest in principles and pratices, then jumps on my case when I mention he has not called the President of the UMBA regarding a relationship he stated he was trying to build.  What is this guys dilema?  He praises one thing, then bites someone who is doing what he praises.

11:52am • #52
733,769 Points 231 Featured Posts Outside Blog Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

Robert....  that's funny.  Where did you get that?  Can you get a refrigerator next to that?  lol

Robert.... yes, that analogy by Yael was great and says so much.

Brian..... again, you bring up some great points.

Robert.....  I also don't understand. And I try not to bother with it. He says that he talked to the president of the UMB and you verify this.  That in itself should tell others what the dilema is. Too much time has been wasted on someone that claims things that don't exist. I just walk away from these types of people and let the general public make up their own mind. It gets old. Kind of like when we were kids..fighting with a sister or brother. Then you scream and say..... mom!!!.. She looks and your brother isn't doing anything at that time. It's called an attention graber. Plain and simple...

thanks for the follow up....

11:59am • #53

Wasnt bitting at you Robert...I was replying from my Blackberry, so it was short...and referring to all the other comments made about J Guttentag being un-american, the Soviet referenced Kolectiv, etc etc

Which is why I 'quoted' those words.  Please follow the comment threads of others.  I have nothing but praise for JG and UMB's...reason I have not approached UMBA proper is my site is not ready, and wont be for another month or so.  This community has drawn it alot of attention, which is nice, but its not nearly done. 

Also growing weary of the four or five of you who feel the need to continually try to minimize me and my comments as trivial and try to dig up whatever you can find to smear my opinion. 

But at least I give you guys some compelling material to write about...

Jeff B..when will you figure out that this entire community is about attention grabbing?  Although I doubt I get an answer. 

12:43pm • #54
27 Featured Posts

Jeff B.,

I will see if I can install a frig.  I knew I was missing something.

3:35pm • #55
292,057 Points 110 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Jeff Corbett:

How can you be tired of us "mimimalizing your opinions"?  The reproach you showed for everyone last Sunday has set the tone.  Your investor from Newport Beach, specifically defined your actions as commendable and your running roughshod over 4-5 honest brokers as "casualties in the revolution".  

That treatment and his comment (which has since been censored) is inconsistent with your general comments about welcoming intellectual discourse. 

And, the Peoples Mortgage Kollectiv???  Come on...refer to the last line of your last comment on this post (directed at Jeff B).  I honestly think you are more than intelligent enough to understand my motive there.

Jeff C.  I welcome you to intellectual discourse about my industry (and the one you recently left).   I'm going to ask you direct questions about your business model and your business practices.  I'll try not to make them loaded questions.  Are you able to patiently answer those questions to the "dinosaurs" without the sarcastic tone and glib response?

7:41pm • #56
292,057 Points 110 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Jeff C.:

I know you are too intelligent to not understand what I am doing here; you know my blogs aren't cut and paste.

I have set the tone for intellectual discussion about your business model. The People's Mortgage Kollectiv was absolutely directed at your model.  Was it sensationalistic?... Absolutely!  Was it designed to evoke emotion?...Absolutely. Do I think you are attempting to build a business model based on a fixed fee for services in collusion with other mortgage brokers?  yep.  Do I think that's a bad thing...I do.  I think it smacks of old-school labor organizing and I think that is bad in a free market society.

Do I think your concept of a fixed fee for services is plausible?  Of course.  I think you can do a great job for a specific niche of the market if you manage costs well.  Now, be sure to quote all of this, Jeff C..  I think you cross the line when you attempt to organize individual companies to "conform"  to your model rather than to take the risk and start your own.  That, is CLASSIC price fixing.  Hiding it behind negative press implies that if everyone doesn't conform to your model, than it must be wrong.

Can you catch the various nuances of my statements and understand exactly which part of your business model I believe to be illegal?   If you don't, I'll try to explain it again.

Jeff C., a highly developed brain resides in this big goofy-looking head of mine.  I can have an intellectual conversation with you but I will not be talked down to and described as "someone who defends his dishonest industry" at all costs.  I think you know that I caught on to that act last Sunday when I "punted" in your post.

I will offer you this chance, Jeff Corbett.  Are you really prepared to have a civil, intellectual discussion where egos and agendae are cast into the wind?
8:13pm • #57

Didn't mean you Brian (cut and paste)...your post had much independent thought.

I don't like to deal in nuances, preferring to keep it real open and blunt.

Last Sunday was a hoot.  It took the direction it did when 4-5 mortgage guys accused me of trying to promote from my posts here on AR because I own another site that will be running a unique business model, one on the surface that appears to be a discount broker, fixed cost in the nature of the Company's you mentioned in your Kollectiv post. 

Until your last sentence, not one of you has asked articulate questions about how I propose to do what I'm doing, instead you guys bash me on completely misinformed, assumptive judgment.  You're all off base.  Trying to dig up and post dirt about me?  Amateurish.   What does that have to do with the Mortgage Industry's Internal Civil War, and its topic, that very very few people even know what YSP's are?  I believe Bryant Tutas, a long time & successful professional, professed no one had ever explained YSP to him. 

As Ive said before, my post caused some longtime players in this industry to have to redisclose how their business works, and there were red faces because of it , so I became the whipping boy.

In my opinion, non-disclosure is bad business, especially if what isn't being disclosed is charged to clients occurs in the magnitude of 85-90% of all mortgage transactions.  If your services are justified by a certain price, why not disclose that price in a clear concise manner, whatever that price is?    

I have not tried to 'sell' anyone here on AR regarding my business, while you campaign against 'it', and 'it' is something you guys know so relatively little about...It was your very small posse of mortgage guys who brought what Im doing in the mortgage industry to light for everyone else, not me.  On top of that, we're not even ready to 'go live' yet...We have spent a grand total of $0 in marketing to date.  It is a mere shell of what it is about to evolve to.

Do I stand behind my website?  110%.  Referring yo Yael's featured post, the general publics opinion about Loan Officers is in the toilet.  Why?  Why is mortgage fraud the FBI's #1 priority of white collar crimes to prosecute?   Its a dirty and tainted industry.  For every Brian Brady, there are 50 Slick Willies.

I would like to have a hand in correcting that and believe I have A solution, not THE solution. 

My business model is not illegal, I do pay well for very good pro-active legal opinion, and would appreciate you ceasing the defaming 'nuance' that it is... I think any broker who does not disclose 100% of his commissions is illegal, deeming this money as a rebate or kickback.  Disclose your fees, front and back, and go about your business.  

Finally, to answer your last question... Absolutely! and believe we should do so in a forum conducive to discussion threads.  Ill look into this and trust you will too. 

I warn your small group now,,,,If anyone tries to trash my personal character and professional capabilities again, I will lash back with the type of resources that can be very, umm lets just say 'deleterious'. 

Keep everything above board and the discussion should prove to be entertaining.     

9:58pm • #58
292,057 Points 110 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Now deleterious is a word I'll have to look up...hold on...

OK, that's what I thought it was; your warning is well taken.  

Marquis of Queensury Rules? I'll let you play John Wayne and I'll be the Maureen O'Hara's closed-minded older brother.  If you haven't seen The Quiet Man, rent it...I'm paying you a compliment.

Let's enjoy the weekend.  I'll post tomorrow night with "Marquis of Queensbury Rules" as the topic.  I'll use my wife's profile so noone can accuse us of trying to capitalize on the publicity.  We can start our engines on Sunday night or Monday.

No gang bangs (I found that to be an amusing term)

No egos

No "hidden" agendae .  We'll "keep it real"

 

11:14pm • #59
NOV
19
2006

Sounds good...Lets target tomorrow afternoon/eve?  I missed my Sunday NFL fix last week....

Im looking into AR's 'forum' ability.... 

 

Go Bills! 

12:00pm • #60
I can see in my account that people are commenting on this post...but when I get here, I cant see the actual posts???
12:07pm • #61
NOV
20
2006
733,769 Points 231 Featured Posts Outside Blog Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master
Maybe Ghosts?   lol  It also shows this when people edit their comments. It could be an old comment. Just curious....  everyone talks about being civil and trying to hold a good debate with great discussion. You even talk about this in one of your blogs. But in here, you give a warning?  How should one take that? Threat? Just curious, because some people act nice in their own blogs, but act mean in someone else's blog.....  and again, just curious to why this would be said.
7:28pm • #62
A fair warning...thats all...to keep everything above the belt and on topic...we all saw the fallout of the attempted gang bang last time.  
9:54pm • #63
NOV
25
2006
733,769 Points 231 Featured Posts Outside Blog Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

Jeff Corbett..... I will stand my ground and be honest here. If you go back and read your comment, you state that this is a fair warning, but in my opinion sounds more like a threat. And you seem to want to make up your own rules and definitions.

How is this keeping everything above the belt?  If I google my name, this appears.

The XBroker » Blog Archive » The Disturbing Truth

11/04/2006 by Jeff Belonger. comment number 8 by: The XBroker. November 11th, 2006 at 9:44 am. Jeff...let me point you to a AR post that should clear things ...
thexbroker.com/blog/the-disturbing-truth.php - 34k - Cached - Similar pages

 

or this.... 

The XBroker » Blog Archive » Quotes, Zillow, and Guerrilla ...

Quotes: Jeff Belonger over at Active Rain asked me for some inspirational quotes to share with him for a blog post, these are some that have resonated with ...
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I never once asked your for quotes..   Besides... if you read my blog in regards to famous quotes, you copied some of these quotes that were already mentioned in this blog. And then went on to use them in your blog, making it look like you gave these quotes...which some individuals praised you for.... and 2nd....made everyone think that you gave me these quotes because I asked you too....

Again...going back to trying to make me either look bad....or that I was looking for your help or advice.

this is what you wrote up above, in this blog.

I warn your small group now,,,,If anyone tries to trash my personal character and professional capabilities again, I will lash back with the type of resources that can be very, umm lets just say 'deleterious'. 

Keep everything above board and the discussion should prove to be entertaining.     

 

11/18/2006 by Jeff Corbett Edit Delete <!-- <a href="javascript:tipAgent(8944, 20900, 84021)"><img src="/images/tip_points.png" mce_src="/images/tip_points.png" border="0"></a> -->

Does that sound like a fair warning?  What happened to this blog that you were going to write, in regards to clean information and as a debate. You talk about me and a few others attacking you personally.... and then went on to make a comment that you never...not once attacked us persoanlly.?? Putting my picture on your web site at one time, is not personally?  Listing me with your hard faught words of... all brokers are evil.... none of them will give you a clean good faith estimate and all will over charge you. And I am attached to this.

Last.... you even had me attached as one of your tag words... in a blog that attacked me and what I had to say. Is that not personal?  We might have had debates in here....but not ONCE, did I ever attach anything negative to my web sites or other links or back links. And you have the nerve of threatening me? 

Sorry people... but I had to bring this up, because I just loathe people that try to make themselves look better....appeal to others by doing what Jeff Corbett has done... and try to blame me or a few others that believe in what we do. Just as Jeff Corbett believes in what he does. There just happened to be more people that believe in what we do or as I do, than what Jeff Corbett believes in. Is that "ganging" up on him, as he mentioned...and that I am quoting his words. From Jeff Corbett "...we all saw the fallout of the attempted gang bang last time.   "   Pretty harsh words.....  again, just happens to be more people that believe in what I do and attempt to do....and not take the time to backlash at individuals and or companies. When you actually did at one time, what you preach against now.

I would like my name to be removed from your web sites.....I don't need you associating me with the bad apples of the mortgage industry. Not unless you have proof and or hard cold facts.

And I already spoke to some people inAR and some that run Ar about what you did, placing my name as a tag word.... and you want to talk about attacking or getting personal?  Look again in the mirror.

Here is something very interesting...... Jeff Corbett..... this came from one of your sites...

X-Rated Interest Rates

Posted: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 18:25:27 +0000

We started posting wholesale par rates awhile back, but the format sucked. We're getting ready to evolve again with an embedded chart for these daily posts, instead of in a post.

So I'm going to start here again to ‘raise awareness', until the switch is flipped. Hopefully I don't run into cross browser issues again. The entire site is optimized for Firefox (the new 2.0 is great!)..Internet Explorer has a mind of its own and will do filppy things with text font, and margins...arrrgh!

  • 30 YR Fix-5.625%
  • 15 YR Fix-5.375%
  • 40 YR Fix-5.750%
  • 3/1 ARM-5.625%
  • 5/1 ARM-5.625%
  • 7/1 ARM-5.750%

Rates displayed are Conforming and require the minimum/maximum criteria to qualify for:

  • Loan Amount: $100k - $417k
  • Credit Score 640+ (Exceptions here, Tri-Bureau review required)
  • Full Income and Asset Documentation
  • DTI Ratio : 36%+/-
  • Primary Residence
  • Single Family/ Townhome/ 1-4 Units
  • Purchase or Rate/Term Refinance
Adjustments to rate for all other variables....Have a great day ;)

The rates you receive from thexbroker.com are examples of current rates and are provided for informational purposes only

NOW>....with what was just posted.... Talk about misleading....

you mention PAR RATES.... which means at par, zero points. You also don't give anyone any idea if these do come with points. But you can't get these rates without points or fees. And you attack the mortgage industry, telling people...that they lie, bait and switch, and that they charge more. Or... that they don't educate the average consumer...which is excatly what you are doing here. Not educating them. Leading them to believe. This is called...PROOF>

You want to talk about a fair fight?  This is fair because this is coming directly from your web site.... or are advertising rates without clear explanation.

And this is also coming directly from your site.:

I'm now holding you to account for your actions, or let the greater community/blogosphere hold it's opinion of you from self-discovery.

  1. Jeff Belonger
  2. Ron Withers
  3. Tommie W. Gibson
  4. William J. Archambault, Jr

Click For Info
Not to mention they sabotaged my ActiveRain avg rating from 4.6 to 3.9 (out of 5) Ouch!

 Jeff Corbett.... you want credibility in this group?  If anyone gives it to you because you can talk all sweet and educated on Active Rain... but then post lies and opinions on your web sites, that many others in here don't see or notice..... do you want me to bring up the word fair again?  And why do you leave Brian Brady out of your little war?  I know why....  this is all a game to you. But I am dead serious about this. Besides, you are falsely advertising certain things....  should I go futher?

10:43am • #64
733,769 Points 231 Featured Posts Outside Blog Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

so Jeff Corbett...., more than half of the stuff that you have written in your web sites is not mentioned in the same tone as you have spoken on Active Rain. Why is this?  Two headed monster?  Dr. Jeckle and Mr. Hide? 

Some of us can read into what you say on here. Others need to see the actual writing....   you have slander my name all over your web sites, because of a heated debate did not go your way. Is that professional?  Playing fair?  You do have some different rules, that I don't use....

10:47am • #65

Jeff B...Here is your email to me, received 10/28/06: 

You've received a contact message from your Contact Form on the ActiveRain network.

Message details:
From: jeff belonger
Email: jbelonger@e-americanmortgage.com
IP:68.45.132.197

Hi Jeff,

I have followed a few of your blogs. You give some good information with some very good topics.

I did a blog on: "Famous Quotes from famous people...... " Just looking for some inspirational quotes that I have never heard before. Would love to hear of any that you like or love.

thanks,
jeff

 

Hopefuly this has jogged your memory.

I dont see where I was trying to make you look bad, instead I was trying to credit you with the post. 

 

Brian Brady was 'left out' because he approached me to clear the air and invited me to a 'gentleman's debate', which shall continue upon my return home on Tuesday.  

You demanded answers (like 10x), to which I obliged in a post.

Ron demanded answers, to which I obliged in a post.

Tommie W. Gibson would throw in his $.02, then fade off into the background.  

William A. called me an a**hole, so I felt the need to include his intellectual verbiage into the mix.

I got no response from any of you, so I wanted the opinion of others who read my home blog.  If I was really looking to 'bash' you and others, I would have made many of the cutting and funny comments I received public by approving their display...instead I chose to keep them for my own personal amusement.    

 

 

As far as my rate posts, they are rates that were at par, or paying (not costing) as close to par as was mathematically possible, direct from a best results query of Conforming lender criteria, from wholesale lender databases.

They were/are/shall be a re-display of what was/is available on that day.  The points or fees that may be affiliated with obtaining these par rates are at the discretion and direct influence of individual brokers/bankers.   Par, as you said, = no points, no fees.  It is a baseline measurement for qualified consumers to consider when shopping for a Conforming loan.  I dont charge points or fees, I just redisplay available par rates.  If you looked at your own Conforming rate sheet, you would see the same rates (or very very close) to what I redisplayed.  

There is no bait and switch, instead it causes consumers to ask a broker or banker better questions like:

I saw on XBroker that there was a Conforming 30 yr fixed rate @ X%, and you are quoting me X+%..Please explain why. 

Which should lead to a nice explanation of how much in dollars the mortgage pros points and fees are costing the consumer.  We will include actual pricing matrices  (down to the thousandths of a percent) and an interface that converts the %'s into dollar amounts based on loan amounts when XBroker evolves (very very soon).   

 

Anyone may find my website from my Profile here on AR...    

I commonly make identical posts on AR from my home site.  Sometimes I make posts on my homesite that do not make it to AR.  Sometimes I make posts on AR that don't make it to my homesite.  In any case, they are all there for everyone to see.  If I was trying to hide something, I don't think I would post it where everyone could see it.   

 
The rest of your comments are part of a circular argument/conversation that goes nowhere new...
 
How many people did you email and ask to come to this comment?  Just curious.   
 
 
12:54pm • #66
733,769 Points 231 Featured Posts Outside Blog Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

Jeff Corbett.... in regards to the quotes... you quoted quotes on your blog that were already mentioned and not from you.

In regards to telling people to come to this comment? who cares. Stop bouncing around what I have mentioned.

Those rates that you posted.  this is what you just said....in your previous comment.  As far as my rate posts, they are rates that were at par, or paying (not costing) as close to par as was mathematically possible, direct from a best results query of Conforming lender criteria, from wholesale lender databases.  You know damn well from being in the mortgage business that this is incorrect....when you make posts of rates and such, first off, you should put the current date of those rates. You are in violation of this. And it's not mathematically possible with what you supplied..meaning, zero costs or points. I finally catch you at false advertising and you make something up. There is not one company in the United States that could give these rates with no costs, and especially under your model, the x-model. And you don't even mention that this is par.... you psycho babble has been called out with PROOF. Then you don't even factor in your model prices to this. Everything you mention is so vague. And when you are called out, you run circles around everyone.... denouncing them and saying your word is the truth. Bottom line Corbett, you are just like the rest of the decietful lenders out there, but with another agenda at hand.

You still have avoided my issues... and bring them back on me. From day one, you have been avoiding intelligent questions..

Question... you talk about taking it out personally on you. Question. Did you not post my picture and several other pictures with negative content?...on your web site.???

Did you not add my name to a tag here on AR? In which puts my name and AR profile to a direct link to your web site. A web site that talks about bad brokers. But now links my name to this, when you can't sit there and say that I am one of these brokers. But... we have dug up stuff on you, specifically detailing how you treated clients, in a negative manner, in which you now say that you are trying to help cleints.  Which is it Jeff Corbett?  another question that you have failed to answer.

 

Again.... failing to answer questions of what we had asked. And you then turn around crying to everyone, in your blogs and comments, that we haven't answered your questions. Well, sorry.... but I asked these questions way before you even thought of asking me questions. And I want answers. That you keep running away from these questions. And you talk about playing above the board?  Please....  all you do is change things up...change them around.... so you can look like the good guy, to those that can't read through you.

And then you go on to say this.... fom Jeff Corbett   If I was really looking to 'bash' you and others, I would have made many of the cutting and funny comments I received public by approving their display...instead I chose to keep them for my own personal amusement.     All you did was play dirty on your sites, but said none of this on Active Rain.  Why is this? I am calling you out. But you still hide on your own sites and site lies. But on Active Rain, you try to look like the good kid on the block. WHY?  Be a man. I have challenged you to play the same way that you have off site....  but you won't do this. Why not?

Last.. you mention that you have nothing to hide. Then post the same stuff from your web site on AR.... exactly what you have written about us..the pictures... etc etc..  Most... Most people from AR aren't going to your web sites... if they did once, they don't need to anymore...because your OPINIONS>.. not truth... are that. Opinions.... and some form of truth of what does go on, but you make it all seem that it's ALL truth.

Oh yea.... this so-called model of yours.... you still haven't told Brian Brady what you were suppose to over 3 months ago. Why????  You even mentioned 3 weeks ago that you were going to unveil this and some other things. So we called you out... people have forgotten about that crap that went on....but I didn't. Because people like you need to except the truth and stop hidding behind a web site... and then call people out when you want to.... and then acuse people of attacking you personally. When you actually threatened a few of us. You did.... and you can't admit this. You were steamed because you felt attacked, just like you attack the mortgage industry on a whole on you web sites.... 

So... will you ever answer my direct questions?  You answer the ones that don't bother you. That is it.... Just answer my 3 main questions.... but you can't. Because some of us actually know what you are doing. Bottom line. Like I have said before, some of what you say is the truth, in regards to the mortgage industry.     BUT NOT ALL OF WHAT YOU SAY>

You have actually been a waste of time, but someone needed to stand up to your games and lies. And getting a response from me again? NOPE... not until you answer my questions.

1:29pm • #67
Just an observation or question on the first comment for 11-25 where the XBroker website interest rates are shown/pasted....Truth-in- lending and even transparency apply....Where is the APR disclosure that is clearly required by the act?
2:09pm • #68
OK.... Writing from my BB, so this will be brief: Did I make a post about the AR exchange and include your pix on my homesite? Yes. Its still there...the pix kept falling out of alignment, so I nixed them. You guys willingly participated, and I used your public profiles, instead of speaking in generalities about 'this guy and that guy'. Was the post negative? No, simply a summary of events with links to the relevant AR posts and comments so others could make their own judgement. Why didn't I post the same on AR? Didn't see the point of making a post on AR about my post on my homesite about posts on AR...seemed redundant. The rates: The post is dated.?. Plz pay attention. The rates all paid between .009% and .071% in YSP, as close to par as possible without 'costing' points. Plz point to where it says these rates are available at 0 cost in fees? Again, they are a redisplay of wholesale rates, a baseline for consumers to use in negotiating with their mortgage pro. Answering Brian Brady's questions on his wifes Marquis of...post. Check it out. Did I tag your name to a post? Yes. The main topic of the post was to answer your questions. Thought you deseved the mention since you were the inspiration. I don't understand your points about 'the quotes' post..or the email 'you never sent' to me... And, yes, it is my opinion you don't like...sorry. However I will continue to express it and back it up. Lighten up, stress isn't good. You don't see me calling you a liar, deceptive, psycho-babbler, kid with a crazy opinion, names et.al. I'm sure youre a great LO Jeff but you're starting to weird me out a bit. Chill out.
2:32pm • #69
733,769 Points 231 Featured Posts Outside Blog Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

Jeff Corbett... I said I wasn't going to reply to you.... but here is something I failed to mention in basic terms. What you have done on your web site in regards to those rates is called: FALSE ADVERTISING.  And you can deny it any way that you want. But I can point out at least 3 different reasons why this is called false advertising. Besides... I can also send this to the state of NC and any other state. And this is not called a threat. But I will walk away from this if you just take out my name on anything that you have associated me with in regards to your web site and your profiles, etc etc.  And if you don't want to, then we can play your games with your rules. Again, not a threat, just the facts.

3:08pm • #70
Jeff, ill remove your name proper but will leave the link-back. I respect your wishes to keep your comments as anonymous as possible. Starting Tues. I will be redisplaying wholesle rates daily. We don't sell or originate loans, so the APR and other TILA disclosures would have to come from the banker/broker who does so. I did notice one error: Max LTV is 90%. Please do point out the 3 law breaking errors you see, so I may dispell them too. None of what I put up is deceptive or false Jeff, it just makes you feel better to dismiss it and label me as such. If you contacted any states banking commision in regards to me, it would be about the 50th time, all by other brokers, not so coincidentaly. So please, spare me your trivial, unfounded and baseless threats. The rates, based on the criteria that is laid out, are 100% real...straight from sources like Wells Fargo, CWBC, WAMU, and other wholesale side lenders. Thank you for continuing to clarify things for the communtiy.
3:48pm • #71

Jeff C

Below is a cut and paste (as much as you hate them) from Reg Z, Staff Commentary, Advertising.  It is my opinion that XBroker is not exempt from the provisions of Reg Z when advertising rates.

Cut & Paste ……. From Regulation Z, Staff Commentary, Advertising

 

Section 226.2--Definitions and Rules of Construction

  2(a)  Definitions.
  (a)(2)  Advertisement.
  1.  Coverage. Only commercial messages that promote consumer credit transactions requiring disclosure are advertisements. Messages inviting, offering, or otherwise announcing generally to prospective customers the availability of credit transactions, whether in visual, oral, or print media, are covered by Regulation Z (12 CFR part 226).
  i.  Examples include:
  A.  Messages in a newspaper, magazine, leaflet, promotional flyer, or catalog.
  B.  Announcements on radio, television, or public address system.
  C.  On-line messages, such as on the Internet.
  D.  Direct mail literature or other printed material on any exterior or interior sign.
  E.  Point-of-sale displays.
  F.  Telephone solicitations.
  G.  Price tags that contain credit information.
  H.  Letters sent to customers as part of an organized solicitation of business.
  I.  Messages on checking account statements offering auto loans at a stated annual percentage rate.
  J.  Communications promoting a new open-en d plan or closed-end transaction.
  ii.  The term does not include:
  A.  Direct personal contacts, such as follow-up letters, cost estimates for individual consumers, or oral or written communication relating to the negotiation of a specific transaction.
  B.  Informational material, for example, interest rate and loan term memos, distributed only to business entities.
  C.  Notices required by federal or state law, if the law mandates that specific information be displayed and only the information so mandated is included in the notice.
  D.  News articles the use of which is controlled by the news medium.
  E.  Market research or educational materials that do not solicit business.
  F.  Communications about an existing credit account (for example, a promotion encouragi ng additional or different uses of an existing credit card account).
  2.  Persons covered.  All "persons" must comply with the advertising provisions in §§ 226.16 and 226.24, not just those that meet the definition of creditor in § 226.2(a)(17). Thus, home builders, merchants, and others who are not themselves creditors must comply with the advertising provisions of the regulation if they advertise consumer credit transactions. However, under § 145 of the act, the owner and the personnel of the medium, in which an advertisement appears, or through which it is disseminated, are not subject to civil liability for violations.

If there is another part of the Regulation that counters Xbroker being exempt from compliance, please point me to it.

I would like to accept an opinion from you that we are a Heavily Regulated Industry (not Unregulated) , however in your opinion, inadequately regulated from your perspective in disclosure of YSP and transparency.

6:44pm • #72
NOV
26
2006
292,057 Points 110 Featured Posts Outside Blog

I might suggest that we try to all take a breather here.  This disagreement is starting to feel like being stuck in quicksand; the harder you fight to get out, the quicker you sink.

Can Jeff C. advertise rates on xbroker?  Well, I think there is a difference between loan advertising and,  as he puts it, consumer advocacy. 

Jeff C.- a prudent man would assume you to be a mortgage brokerage by your name and website.  I think you know what I mean by citing "a prudent man".  I think you'll have a difficult time advertising rates without some sort of disclosure or disclaimer.  Again, I'm sure you are working this out.  

9:23pm • #73
OCT
30
2009
128,566 Points

 

 

In Ontario we are pohibited from discussing commission amounts in any form; writen, spoken or otherwise because it is construed as price fixing under the Federal Competition Act.

11:28am • #74
SEP
08

So much for the Code of Ethics.

Regarding comment #34 from

Name
Yael Warman
Company
Right About Real Estate
E-mail
Contact Right About Real Estate
Website
http://www.rightabouthomes.com
Office Phone
(954) 362-0980 x 2001
Fax
(954) 362-0982
Address
213 East Sheridan St , Suite 5, Dania Beach, FL, 33004
Your comments are IMO unethical and self serving. You stated you would more enthusiastically show the same exact house that has a high commission. Obviously you are COMMISSION DRIVEN and do not have the customers best interest at hand. Shame on you. Violation of Realtor Code of Ethics.
You are also wrong in stating that you can not get the same service from a "discount" brokerage. How do you know this? Many Realtors may give more and better service than you, but will work for less money. Just because they charge less they are no good or mediocre? You really have your priorities wrong. Its called competition and building a better mousetrap cheaper but producing the same result. It appears to me You really have a silver spoon in your mouth from what you write. You also said
" A seller that pays a flat fee or a low percentage, is going to have a reduced chance of selling their property just because the broker they hired has limited resouces to work with (less money for advertising, less compensation to offer cooperating brokers, etc)." You dont know that and you actually are WRONG. You must be a newbee to the business. Go have a talk with your broker and read R/E more books.
Robert
10:24am • #75

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I just want to educate people about mortgages and the process. In regards to lending, I am very creative, intuitive, honest, and one who communicates information, may it be good or bad. I am a loan officer that looks out for your best interest.







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