Hi Ray, 

For one, I see it as a problem that entire businesses have sprouted up to help agents with Top Producer.

I think that the point of the software is to streamline productivity, not be a barrier to productivity.

I see it as a barrier if I have to hire someone to explain the software to me.

- Rory 

Rory, thank you for sharing your point of view.  I suspect that a number of other people agree with you.  Please allow me to share a different perspective.

They could have made Top Producer a whole lot easier to work with, if only the real estate business itself weren't so darned complicated.

Take marketing, for example.  Successful agents must maintain close relationships with at least several hundred people.  Doing that requires a lot of contact "touching". 

Maintaining a library of touches, in email, letter, flyer and presentation formats does get kinda complicated.  Setting up automated distribution plans is even more complicated.  Heck, just understanding the strategy and developing a plan for this kind of marketing is very complex; and that's before getting to the actual implementation of it. 

Then take your listing and closing activities.  Can you explain all the details of what's going on in those processes, in 500 words or less?  I'm kinda baffled as to why anyone would expect that a system capable of managing and controlling those processes, containing hundreds of steps, would be implementable without careful planning and setup.

Is it really reasonable to expect that setting up a sophisticated, comprehensive, expert, real estate business system; capable of supporting the building and sustaining of a six figure income, indefinitely, would be obvious right out of the box?

Ray,

I'm with you, I have been using it for a couple of years now and am very happy, I don't care for their flyers but the rest is great.

Ray.....excuse me while I climb up on my soap box.....ok...ready now....

I LOVE Top Producer.......it's just their training (or lack thereof) that sucks.....I've had TP for over a year now. While they have great tech support, it's only as good as the tech you get on the phone. I've called sometimes and they are anything but helpful... until my last call...I'll get to that in a moment.

Personally, I think TP CAN help you manage your business and time....again, if you know how to use it. I remember buying my subscription and spending hours and hours applying action plans to the 250 or more contacts I imported to TP (Thank God I learned about that process.) No where did I get any initial instruction on the system, or that I could "mass apply" an action plan.

I TOTALLY agree with you that no one program can understand the dynamics of our business and markets. Case in point, TP Listing Action Plans are only for 90 days....and what does one do when you renew a listing for another 90 days? Repeat the program....I've got the marketing in place, so I don't "repeat it." So, I will have to copy a plan, and create a listing plan that I would then put in place after  MY (I created my on custom listing plan) runs out.  Doing that takes ALOT of time, if you don't have a strong grasp of the "inner workings" of TP.

Case in point..... I copied a Cascading Action Plan, then "tweeked" it to fit my business and keep in touch with my contacts. However, there was never any training to tell me about checking the box "send this e-mail automatically" AND, I have some issue with text that appears in each of my e-mails that I have to open them, ONE BY ONE, DELETE the text, then send the e-mails. So right now, I have 166 e-mails sitting in my Scheudule to send out manually......because no one told me about the automatic part.  So, I spent 1.5 hours on the phone with tech support last week trying to figure out this problem with the text. The final resolution....I have to create an New action plan, and I will have to delete it from everyone of my 450 contacts, and then re-apply my new action plan, which, if I set up correctly, will have automatic e-mails, but I don't want all those e-mails to go out to my exisiting clients as they have already gotten them......are you following my frustrations......

Understanding the process of copying a plan, then adding your own templates, but how you have to create and save them, and where to save them......UGH!

As Rory pointed out, you shouldn't have to hire someone else to show you how to use something. I think their product should be coordinated to immediately attend a Quick Start before you ever start to use it....My Quick Start training came MONTHS after I had already used the system...and did not know all the shortcuts that COULD save me time.  AS you pointed out in your response back to Rory, a setting up a system such at TP cannot "come out of the box"...but it can come with more training.

I also agree with Bob about the flyers....they leave ALOT to be desired. I would think they could come up with more options, etc. Here is where I will pride myself in being able to "trick" the system to get what I want on a flyer by editing. I do LOVE the Marketing Links....that does add an edge of professionalism to my work.

As I said from the start, I do love the system and it is helping me keep in touch with my clients...but I've spent way more time on the learning curve for this system than I should have...or if I would of had some initial training, I could of been spending that time when my biz was slow, not now when I need to have this system working for me.

Ok.....off the soap box......

I have been using Top Producer since 1998 when it was only computer based and I converted to TP7i when it changed. I have nothing but glowing reviews for it as it maintains my 325 monthly contacts I make every month, and stays in touch with 10 years of past clients. I don't think about even looking at another product as this one "works" for me.

Thom thank you for writing such a detailed response from your soapbox.  I believe that a lot of people will be able to identify with your frustration.

• frus.tra.tion a deep chronic sense or condition of insecurity, discouragement, and dissatisfaction arising from thwarted desires, inner conflicts, or other unresolved problems <~ brought about by the constant inner conflict between the desire to possess and the yearning to renounce

My business is about shielding my clients from the kinds of experiences you describe above, while I implement far better marketing administrative systems than they've yet had time to even imagine.

I think these frustrations are the direct result from not fully understanding the nature of the task at hand.  One of the things that make Top Producer so powerful is its many customization and personalization options.  This freedom and power does come at a price, however.

For example, the flyer templates you mentioned.  The templates are there to make it easy to create a flyer without having to do anything extra.

On the other hand, (if you don't like any of those templates) there is a full set of editing tools available that enable you to create virtually any kind of flyer design you could want.  You've just got to realize that the cost of using those tools involves a learning curve and some time to actually setup the custom flyer.

I see ways to still save you time and frustration with the rest of the issues you describe.  Had we spoken up front, you never would have wandered down those dead-end roads.

Could Top Producer bundle in more training and implementation support up front as you suggest?  Sure they could, but then it would have to cost a whole lot more than $34.95 down and $34.95/month to use the system.

They made a business decision to enable their customers to acquire the system for as low an entry fee as possible. (There was a time when companies literally paid hundreds of thousands of dollars, up front, to get a system that wasn't 1/4 as sophisticated as Top Producer is today.  Most agents have no idea how lucky they are to get into something so robust, for so little money.) 

Some of those customers are fine with getting the system up and running on their own, for no extra cost.  Most of those customers should be spending some extra money to get the help they need to do the "under-the-hood" work on the system; so they can just concentrate on learning to "drive" it.

If you step back and look at the industries that are a lot further down the road of systems implementation than real estate (i.e. virtually all other industries) you'll find that configuration and training costs typically double or triple the cost of buying the system.  The real estate industry just hasn't awakened to, or accepted this fact.

Regarding your statement, ". . .you shouldn't have to hire someone else to show you how to use something."  Let me reframe the essence of your complaints in a context that will be more familiar to you; take FSBOs.

• "What's the big deal?  I want "X" for my house.  Somebody wants it, they give me the money, and I sign the deed over to them.  Why should I pay some agent tens of thousands of dollars for something that should be so simple?" 

I'll bet you can easily make a big list of some really good reasons.  Sure a FSBO could study the same materials you did and learn to do a better job.  But is that really enough?  How much does your past professional experience, (and that shared through your colleagues, both good and bad), enrich the advice you give and the decisions you make?  How could any FSBO ever match that?

Thom, your very own Profile page explains the significant advantages of working with someone who really knows the local community.  You also point out that this deep knowledge is so very important that you won't even show properties in areas you don't know well.

It's taken me decades of 10 hour days working on marketing consulting, and on Top Producer 7i, to amass the deep knowledge and understanding I have of using the system to best advantage.  There's no way to fit all that expertise into any kind of Quick Start; but I can quickly assess an agent's situation and apply just the right parts of that knowledge to just the right places in their systems.  In the long run, whatever clients pay me is very cheap compared to the cost of their time, and their lost selling opportunities.

Charles, I'm glad you're doing so well.

Bob, nice to hear of your success too.  About those flyers, the system will let you have any kind of design you like.  What do you want?

Hi.  I think you did a great job of laying out all of the things that TP can do.  But the best part is the seamless and effortless followup ONCE you set everything up.  It's true that for a lot of people that are expecting "out of the box" performance - it's just not going to happen.  As far as the training aspect is concerned, why do you think Video Professor does so well.  A lot of people need help with technical aspects of all phases of computerization.  But as a long time user of TP, I believe it's the best program that's out there. For a lot of people, I think it's a little overkill.  I believe that most people don't use anywhere near of what the capabilities are.  I've often thought that they might be better off if they sold everything as modules.  IE:  Get what you need and no more.  I wish they still had an ammo schedule (like they used to) and they should make the sellers net sheet part of the cma...but I have very few complaints with the program.  As far as Tech Help is concerned, I must be pretty lucky because I've always had good tech support.  In the end, I think a lot of agents just get overwhelmed with the program.  I think that TP's 15 minute rule is probably a good idea.  Start out working on it for about 15 minutes every day.  You'll be surprised how fast you catch on. 

Hi John,

You said in your comment above, "I wish they still had an ammo schedule (like they used to) and they should make the sellers net sheet part of the cma."

Often there are things that would be nice to put into a CMA.  While Top Producer doesn't enable you to automatically integrate net sheets into CMAs, there's still an easy way to do it.

I recommend that you invest in a program called "Snag-It" from www.TechSmith.com.  It enables you to make .jpg files from literally anything you can see on your computer screen.  With Snag-It you could make a net sheet, turn it into jpg files, add blank netsheet pages to your CMA, then import the net sheet jpgs onto those pages.  It's quick, it's easy and you get exactly what you want.

You could also use Snag-It to grab anything else you want from your computer, or the Internet; then paste them into Top Producer letters, emails, flyers and other presentations.  Wow!

Hi Ray.  Thanks for that tip.  I'll check into it.  Obviously, I can use the regular net sheet and attach it to my cma but sometimes I just forget.  Thanks.

There are other products out there that compete with top producer such as: realtyjuggler.com

Ray, as a soon to be new user of Top Producer 7i this is the "hostility" I have heard about it from other agents:

1) it only comes as web-based (other than the mobility version) which doesn't work with laptops. While the strengths of keeping the contacts on a server and logging into the Internet has its advantages, a client version is faster and more mobile at times too. PDA screens are too small. Fast internet access contrary to what Top Producer says is not available everywhere, especially when away from the office. Wi-Fi hot spots are your best bet nowadays unless your laptop has an Air card.

2) the monthly charge, If you wanted to buy the standalone product that business model doesn't exist. It's $34.95 per month or more and you are stuck with that recurring charge forever.

3) agents that use it say they are only using about 10 to 20% if its functions. Hence, the cottage industry for trainers or the company doing its own training. I don't blame this on a hard to use product but perhaps lazy agents or them just not taking the "time" it takes to get the most out of it.

4) New product pricing includes "bundles" rather than more a la carte pricing to pick and choose "only" those models you are interested in. Top Producer seems inflexible in this area.

Having seen a demo of Top Producer and trying to find a close second of a vendor with something similar, I must say Top Producer seems way ahead of everyone else. It is very well integrated with many other systems.

Gary

I've used 7i for a couple of years.  Also use the MLS Connector, Outlook Connector and Palm "thingy".  Was in the process of setting up a Top Producer website and then I made the mistake of reading the 20 page licensing agreement which apparently also covers data stored in 7i.

In short, the User Agreement is an abomination.  It essentially boils down to the fact that user data belongs to TP and they can do whatever they want with it including aggregating, modifying and reselling it.

 No thanks.  I'm not looking for a replacement to 7i which I know won't be easy but I'm certainly not going to turn over confidential client info to TP to do with as they wish.

Too bad - from a technical standpoint I think it's a great product.

Ray Can you comment of the post by Jan  DeGiorgio? This is the first I have heard of this but it gives me great concern and would be reason enough for me to drop this program.

Gary,

Top Producer is VERY flexible in allowing you to buy what you want.  Everything we offer is sold Ala Carte except for the new Market Builder Bundle, because you must be a subscriber to the Market Snapshot in order to subscribe to Market Builder.

And Thom.... After you came to my QuickStart class - you learned about that little box that you can check to allow the e-mails that you send to go out automatically.  :o)

To all of you:

I say call your local representative and ask them questions about the program, and GO TO THE QUICKSTART CLASSES!!  I can't tell you how many times I have had people in my classes that have been using the program for years, with no training at all, and have learned a great deal by going to that class.  And for new users there is nothing more beneficial then taking a class on how to use the program.  And since the QuickStart classes are free, you can go to as many as you like until you get it.

Folks, I have been using Microsoft products for years.  I've also used Act! for years.  Not once ever, was I given instruction on HOW to use the programs.  I just had to dive in and learn them myself.  It's very rare that you buy software, and get training (and for FREE to boot) on how to use it.  Top Producer offers that in every market that they sell in.  Go Find Your Local Rep and take a class!  Or - pay Ray!

Your local Rep can be located by following this link:  http://www.topproducer.com/Company/Rep/Default.aspx

I'm also working on getting an answer for you regarding the contract.  But I can assure you, when I first started with the company, I was approached by a few agents saying they heard that TP sold the contents of the database.  I called the office immediately and was assured that was simply not true.  We hold onto your data for 4 months if you leave, because most of the time, people end up coming back.  If you don't, we hit the delete button.  And I know because I place orders and when I go into the account of one of my clients who has left and decided to come back, the ordering system tells me straight up, that I must create a new account because the old account has been deleted.  But I will check into this for all of you for sure and get the 4-11 for you directly from my company.

Thanks!

Sherry

Sherry,

I'm glad that TP is looking into it because I'm not nuts about the prospect of finding a replacement to 7i.

However, instead of getting the word from marketing or legal, why not just provide us a link to the User Agreement and Appendixes.  I believe the User Agreement I read was dated 4/23/07.  I think we'd be more confident making the determination ourselves instead of having the UA interpreted for us by the same people who wrote it.

By way of clarification, my remark wasn't based on rumors but on my reading of the UA, but I do confess that my reading may be no more reliable than a rumor.

As I said, I think 7i and the associated applications I use are terrific and I hope I misunderstood what I read. 

Thanks again for the response.

I'm somewhat new to Top Producer, so probably am not the best person to comment at this point... But, so far, I like it head and shoulders above 360Agent, another web-based real estate contact management solution. Previous to my life in real estate I had used ACT! and thought that worked pretty well, so tried the real estate enhance version. My takeaway on that was that the real estate specific embellishments weren't all that meaty and left me feeling like I would need to re-create the customizable functions on my own. So far, I have been very well satisfied with Top Producer's tech support throughout my data conversion process.

I look forward to checking back to this blog as I learn and grow with the software.

We use it with great success and consider 7i a valuable tool in our team business. Learning the system should be easier for the price though.

Finally found the 7i User Agreement and it was right there on the 7i splash page.

Here's the section of the User Agreement I'm having trouble with and which seems to me states that TP can do anything they want with our data.

-----

License.  You agree that Company (including its Affiliates, contractors and service providers), subject to any specific restrictions expressly provided for herein, shall have the right to make any and all use of (or to refrain from using) any User Content, or other Content you or your suppliers provide in connection with the Application or this Agreement, insofar as is necessary, incidental or useful to Company's performing or administering this Agreement, exercising its rights hereunder or providing, maintaining, supporting, promoting or otherwise managing the Application (the "Content License").  The Content License, without limiting the foregoing, shall be construed to permit Company to copy, store, display, distribute, make derivatives of, adapt, abridge, add to, modify and otherwise use all such Content as long as undertaken in exercise of the rights granted in the foregoing sentence, and to do so by way of any and all media, means and technology (whether or not now known or invented) as it wishes.  The Content License is worldwide, perpetual, irrevocable and royalty-free.

-----

Not pretending to be a Philadelphia lawyer here.  Just think that this opens the doorway to the possible disclosure of confidential client information.  Hope I'm wrong.

Top Producer has always elicited a love-hate relationship with agents, and I am no different. I started using TP back before 7i and watched all the training videos of the geeky Realtor/Programmer guy who originated it. From a Realtor’s perspective he clearly saw the need for integration far beyond what any other company did at the time. From a programmers perspective he didn’t really understand relational databases in the traditional sense and created a closed system without any import/export functionality to speak of. There is still no easy why to move data to and from the database as one might with ACT Goldmine, FileMaker, SQL, etc. Reports are still pretty limited and not customizable at all. I guess my biggest beef has been you can’t integrate smoothly with any other CMS or Outlook. That being said, I would not trade my TP database for anything else on the market.

Ray,

O.K. - I would love to effectively use TP. I have had it for 5 years now and still can't like it. Thats right can't like it. I want to like it but I can't. It's not intuitive at all. It does way way too much when all I really want it for is the basics. There should be an option on it to "use the basics" so it's not so intertwined with things I don't need or want.

It is an O.K. program with a lot of stuff but it's a mess to try and use. My opinion - it has frustrated me. I am a computer person with 18 years in the computer field - this program has the potential to be so much more by having less and being easy to use. I think if TP did this it would be the #1 choice by far. KISS for this program would work wonders for it.

Mike Lewis

Top Producer is like an old brick sized, weighted down first generation cell phone. It's cumbersome, slow, and overly complicated. Getting what you need done is too time consuming. It does a lot...and it's specially geared for Real Estate -- that art is nice. But you can make many other simple programs do the trick without the fees and effort. On a MAC, try Daylight. On a PC, then visit a therapist and a MAC store ASAP.

I have been a TP subscriber for 10 years now.  I used it loyaly until about 6 months ago.  Why?  Well, I can create my flyers on other sites that distribute my flyer to lots of other websites and get me a page 1 google ranking in minutes.  The cost?  $9.95/mo.  I also get a unique web address, a virtual tour, a video, a .pdf file and html for distribution.  The flyer is interactive and buyers can call or text me instantly from the flyer. 

I have a transaction coordinator who doesn't like TP - so, we don't use it.  She uses her own system she made on excel.

I do like the Market Snapshot...in theory.  Just like Zillow, however, the values are usually way off.

Bottom line is, the tools I used to need for my business that TP provided are no longer needed.  I need an integrated system where I can create my ads, flyers, and internet distribution system from the same program.  All TP is to me now is a place where I am storing my contact database.

Hi Tina.  I certainly realize that there are a lot of other programs and/or systems out there besides TP.  However, I still think it is one of the best programs available to keep in contact with past and present clients and customers.  The action plans are great.  I'm curious, how do you keep in contact with these folks?

Hi Tina,

Wow, that flyer system sounds almost too good to be true.  Can you share a link with us?  I'm sure many of us would like to check it out.

RE: Transaction Management with Excel.  I would agree that you can create a checklist in Excel that would help keep you on track, but there really is a lot more to transaction management than that.  Can you see her spreadsheet any time you want to track her progress?  Can your escrow officer, lenders, inspectors, title people, etc. upload and download docs whenever they want?  Can you view transaction docs anytime, from anywhere?  Top Producer can help with some tracking issues, but if you really want to get on top of your transactions, look into Relay.  You'd be amazed at how much quicker and easier everything gets once you have a team of vendors working online together.

RE:  Time Management and Relationship Marketing.  You make it sound like Top Producer is mainly about a transaction checklist and flyers.  The time management and relationship marketing features of the system are even more significant.  What are you doing about those?

I would like to go on record as not being a TP 'hater' although I have been accused of that. I gave it a 90 trial and for my business needs it didn't provide the solution I needed. I appreciate the integrated aspects of TP, although, unfortunately, it integrated through a proprietary software that only worked as an application on peripheral devices. As an example...the TP sales rep told me that TP mobility would integrate seamlessly with my cell phone/PDA. Verdict? It did notintegrate...it ran as a separate application under my PDA operating system. Another example - TP sales rep told me that Outlook connector would integrate with my Outlook to provide seamless integration. Verdict? No calender, notes or other functions...simply worked from my outlook contact list. Sort-of...there was no backwards integration of TP specific fields. I could go on and on. Is TP a powerful system? Yes. Does it have great potential for customization?? Yes. But for me, the learning curve was way to steep. I attended a few classes and to my dismay, not only was the advertised integration not nearly what is was cracked up to be; I already own MS Office, and with the 60-90 hours of time you have to invest in TP to get it 'tweaked' specifically for you (not my words, but the advice of the sales rep who led the training classes) you could customize Outlook, Word, Excel and Access to be exactly what you need it to be...and it all works with your Treo or Blackberry, the data is 100% yours.

I will stick to my standard comment on all these software 'solutions' - the vast majority of them simply emmulate the funcationality you already have at your fingertips (MS Office, MLS Transaction Desk, etc...). Before spending money on the latest fix-all program, talk to a qualified computer techie (or take a class) about what you already have...the solution may be right under your nose.

Ray,

 I realize this is an older post that has come back to life. I also want to go on the record and say I'm NOT against Top Producer.  My Recent Blog has caused a stir over the issue that users were not advised of the situation. I have also posted a responce from Tech Support last night.

 Top Producer is a GREAT program. TP just needs to notify us when our e-mail has been affected. I realise this was NOT a TP issue, but it has affected many users.

Here is an example that we get when we send e-mail to @yahoo.com  This is from sendingThe Market Snapshot to a subscribed user. This issue needs corrected. I find it strange that Top Producer would correctthe mass e-mail situation but not a single e-mail issue.

I have removed the actual e-mail address for obvious reasons.

<#########@yahoo.com>: host e.mx.mail.yahoo.com[216.39.53.1] refused to
   talk to me: 421 4.7.0 [TS02] Messages from 206.131.185.73 temporarily
   deferred due to user complaints - 4.16.56.1; see
   http://postmaster.yahoo.com/421-ts02.html

Once again, I realise top producer did NOT creat this issue, but as our service provider I would ask they correct this issue as it does affect our business.

Jason, I know the temptation is great to believe that you already have all you need "right under your nose".  Oh, if only it were true.

First of all, agents need to realize that the task we're talking about here is to systematize, automate and control what will hopefully become a multi-million dollar real estate business.  Given that as the task, does it really seem reasonable that mixing and matching a bunch of assorted programs that were mostly designed for general use is going to be better for your business than real estate specific programs that have been developed over decades with direct input from hundreds of thousands of agent users?

This chart outlines some pretty basic and very important issues.  As you'll see, Outlook just doesn't cut it.

When I hear agents trying to cobble together a business system out of general purpose parts I imagine a conversation they might have heard:

She:  I just LOVE the paint in the master bedroom

He:  It's nice, but it's not big enough to hold my stuff too.

She:  And the carpet; it'll go really well with the couch.

He:  Yes, it does; but it's 50 miles from my job.

She:  And the baby's room; isn't it just absolutely adorable?

He:  Yes honey, it's very adorable; but where will we put our other three kids?

One cruel fact of life is that nothing is perfect.  There are lots of things in Outlook and many other programs that I like better than in Top Producer.  But none of those programs comes near providing the breadth and depth of features that matter most in marketing and managing a real estate business. 

Don't get so lost in the feature trees that you lose sight of your business forest.

I am surprised at how many Agents really dislike Top Producer!  I use Top Producer, and I do not dislike it to the degree of many posts I have been reading.  I wish it could be more flexible to the user (changing the default on fonts, changing the default on margins in letters, etc.  But, I do hate it they others do.

Back when it was  Top Producer 6i I was a big advocate for Top Producer. I had all of their products that went with it. Then I noticed that support and updates for 6i were going down hill. I seen the writing on the wall and switched to Agent Office. I don't need,or want, my database off my computer and on someone elses server. I don't need another monthly recurring charge.

Ray - I was very excited about TP8i as I have been searching for the right CRM program for my real estate business for four years now.  I even beta tested one.  Top Producer definitely has the functionality I am looking for, but unfortunately it didn't integrate with Microsoft Outlook (and actually prevented me from sending e-mails from Outlook, until I could get the produced uninstalled).  It did not download leads from Realtor.com as promised (three technicians later, I was told that this was a bug that would be resolved in a few months and to be patient). 

After almost a month of diligently learning the software, inputting all my listings, contacts, and applying custom action plans (date-based and cascading), I finally had to call it quits.  The user interface is too awkward for day-to-day use.  It seems like a system that has been cobbled together over time using work-arounds so that previous users can migrate their data to the new system.

It is not the complexity of the system that bothers me.  It is the awkwardness of using the program.  I was heartbroken to give it up, because as you say there is nothing out there that takes it's place, but it is a program I began to dread using each day.