I too have been in similar situations. I honestly feel that if I am going to the borrowers home to complete a loan signing, I will make it my job to ensure they understand what they are signing. I am not point and sign notary!  Sitting in a signing for hours as the borrower reads the documents, it is their prerogative. You take each job as its own and sometimes they will last a lot longer than expected. It is all part of the business. Most of the times my signings run over is mostly because of casual conversations! I am a very friendly person and will talk when talked to. I too would love to hear the points of views from the opposing teams though. 

I've actually felt the same frustration over a buyer that wanted to read every word of the contract, but the bottom line is, they SHOULD.  It's so integral to the closing (your docs) that when a buyer occasionally hasn't read everything with someone to answer questions, it's suck-it-up time, and for heaven's sake, watch the tone.  The next one will be better!

Thanks Michele!  I agree with what you are saying, and don't like to 'solicit' comments, but I really do want to hear from all sides on this.  Although I feel I am an excellent CNSA, knowing all perspectives can only help me improve.  I feel there is always something one can strive to improve upon! 

BTW, if some Mortgage Brokers / Lenders / Title Companies do not want to state their views publicly, I strongly ask that you send me a private email at ronis @ yourswflnotary.com  Thanks again for your views & input into this matter!

But my question to you Laurie, while they SHOULD it does not need to be at the signing as they DO have 3 days to review and cancel if necessary.  And if they have any questions, ask the LO during the recision period.  If the LO doesn't answer or return calls (imagine that happening) then I think the borrower should exercise their RTC, which will get the attention of the LO and get them their answers.  My thoughts anyway. . . 

Gil, I honestly dont know why you want the opinions of LO's, or Mortgage Brokers.  Or Realtors for that matter.

They make one sale and its $1000 to $3000 in income for them.  So whether they spend 1 hour with a client or a whole month on one client, they are making this amount.  I realize this isnt the way it works, I worked in a RE office for 2 years, but their pay scale is quite different from how we make money.

We on the other hand have to do 3-7 signings in one day for 5 days in order to make this amount depending on what your fees are of course.

Now if this was reality and we could do 3-7 signings a day for 5 days a week, for 3-4 weeks of the month then OK, but its not.  We might not do a loan for a week and boom get hit with 10 for a given week and to make up for not having any the week before, we have to try and accomodate reasonably as many as we can.  The question remains how do we do that and keep everyone happy, the borrowers, the LO, the title comp, and still stay in business.

You have to decide how you are going to handle these situations.  Because not one person is going to have the right answer for you.  It depends on the many factors that you have in your life and how you want to handle these delicate situations and lets not forget we are in business.  So the words Income and  Profit do come to mind. 

All kinds of people can come on here and say you should have done this and that, but seriously who is in charge of your business.  You are.  The best you can do is learn from this and think of ways to curtail the situation should it occur again.  Or you can make the decision that you have to base your signings at 4 hour increments so that when it does occur again, your not in a position to be late for your next appt.

So on this note, I do have something for you that might help you a little with this situation.  I will send it to you if you would like.  Let me know.  Email me and I will shoot it over to ya.  And good luck to you with this.  Its a tough one.

Oops I meant Ron, sorry about that.  Your last name sticks out in my mind for some silly reason.

Ron, doing someone else's job is HORRIBLE.  By the same token, if you end up (on RARE) occasions, stuck with it- it's just about getting the buyers into their house at that point, and juggling the rest.  Hopefully, the majority of loan officers are educating their buyers.  Regardless, extricating yourself out of it (or not) garnered a complaint, which is always (no matter how unfounded) pause for THOUGHT.

Hey Lisa & Laurie, thanks for stopping by.  It wasn't me in this situation, that is why I said, to make some assumptions, how would others perceive the situation as I know I've been in it myself.  I didn't ask Realtors, I asked Title, LO & other NSA's as we are all the ones that can often be effected by this situation.  I know it is a tough one, that is why I asked, I want to know others points of view, based on what we know, and then some assumptions about other aspects of the situation that we do not know.  Thanks again!

BTW, to those that do not want to answer this publicly, please free to email me, as I would really like others' perspectives on this issue.  Thanks!

OK, got ya.  Had to read it again.  But why is a SS sending you this on another notary?  I would be a little concerned about my privacy when working with this SS.  Is it really anyones business?

And whether it be you or someone else, my answer remains the same.  It can only be figured out by the individual SA.  This is one of those situations that there is no right answer except for the one you figure out on your own by experience.

Okay Ron,

So here is my take as an Escrow officer. I have had clients like this in the past and fortunately they were signing in my office and I put them in their own room and told them to "have at it" for the reading. When they were done I asked them to let me know and I would show them where to sign. I have also had to explain the documents...EACH ONE... to a client before. Because I was extremely familiar with the documents from that particular lender the signing took only to 1 and 1/2 hours, which, yes is long but not unheard of.

I can understand that mobile notaries are functioning on time limits and it is inconvenient when one client takes longer than anticipated. I have been in that situation as well with one of my notaries and fortunately they were able to move their next appointment to a later time. Perhaps I have been extremely fortunate with my clients and notary in the past and hope to continue having the same success in the future, but I think we all tend to over-react to situations that we really have no control over. There are clients that will insist you explain every detail to them even if the LO has done their job.

This situation is over and done with but perhaps a way of avoiding a similar circumstance in the future would be great communication from the LO or Realtor. They probably know the clients personality the best and can be the prep team for the signing. A short phone call or email from either the LO or Realtor could have saved some valuable time... believe me I have been prepped before as well. If you know the situation you are getting into it makes it a lot easier to deal with.

Anyway, that is my take on the situation. I guess in short communicate with your closing team (ie Notary or Escrow officer) the quirks of your client so they can better handle the situation and keep everyone from getting stuck under the bus.

Karen, First, thank you very much for taking the time to reply!  Secondly, I would have to say, better communications would have lessened the chance of a problems this & many times!  But it is amazing the lack of communications between LO & borrower.  Sad, but I cannot tell you how often they do not even know I am coming, let alone know other things about the loan & what they are about to sign.  I always allow 1 1/2 hours, and even with troubles, can usually get it done in that amount of time, BUT not always.  Sometimes I get paperwork late, which only snowballs the time issue.

Amen!!  Communication is a real big subject with me between all parties to the loan.  Yes, sirree!!  Maybe this will open some doors to that happening more often.

Karen, you have a very unique way of putting things and its done with compassion.  Very nice!!

Ronald,

It sounds to me that the closer's presentation is not put together and polished. A good presentation can head off a troublesome borrower before things start to go down hill.

"I went to this closing tonight and the borrowers did not even have a clue of what was going on."

This statement should have given the closer a clue about where to start with them. 

"...then explained to them that I will go over some important things with them as we come to them..."

That was the closers first mistake. Why tell them you will explain when you get to it and not just get to it and address their concerns before moving on? I would have been perturbed too.

"After we got the HUDs signed came the title docs.  When the first one came she asked me what is this, I explained to her that the next set of documents were the title docs and some affidavits."

Again, why is the closer not answering the borrowers concerns? Why is the closer bothering with junk docs before reviewing terms?

"I again told her not to worry that I would go over the important numbers and documents with her and again explained to her the 3 days of right to cancel that they had."

"I tried over and over to explain to them that I could not sit there while they read all of the pages, that I would review the important things with them and their right to cancel but they were a stubborn old couple that would not budge."

I think, had the closer reviewed the critical docs with the borrowers in the beginning, they may not have been so stubborn. They may have felt like there was a reason the closer kept saying he/she would review the "important numbers and documents" with them, but wasn't doing so.

Ronald, this closer made some bad decisions early on and did not listen to the borrower's objections. The closer ignored the elephant in the room by not addressing the borrower's objections and concerns when they were verbalized. This closer really should work on their presentation and listening skills.

You wanted opinions.

Hey Rebecca,

Thanks for your AR comments, but one thing if you'll notice, I was not the NSA.  I stated that and said, 'making some assumptions' I did want other's point of view.  I also said, I can see where it could have been me.  I see some of the things you are pointing out, and I didn't take it the way you did, but your right, that could have lead to, or at least contributed to the problem for the NSA.  Maybe the NSA wasn't explaining things well, we will never know.  But I've been in situations where I do explain doc's & well, but the signing  has taken way too long - IE see my comment about the one borrower that had 4 days PRIOR to me doing signing then still had 3 add'l business days to continue reviewing docs, but signing took 3 hours.  Fortunately, I did not have signing after him & my situation was clearly not LO not communicating or not explaining, this was just an ornery borrower, BUT if I did have signing afterwards, this could have caused me lots of troubles.  I think the situation described in the original blog could have been at least partially alleviated by better communications from the LO as the NSA felt, but again, I see the points you were making, so maybe that made a bad situation worse.  I know I certainly have been to several signings myself where the LO clearly did not do a good job of communications - see my comment above about LO's not even telling borrower the signing is about to take place---THAT IS POOR COMMUNICATIONS!  So, again thanks for your input!  Like I said, we will never know all of the exact situation on this signing, but I like to hear LO & title points of view's as I feel it is best to see things from a different perspective!  I do not want to only view things from my point of view, I welcome a different perspective, it is what helps make me an excellent NSA!

I have corrected my response.

Also, as far as the time issue goes, I have never had a problem with saying, "I have set aside this amount of time for your closing. I understand that you want to review all of your documents and that is exactly why the government requires the 3 day RTC. You have a full three days to review everything that you have signed. Perhaps, in the future, you should alert your LO that you want to review your entire loan package before signing, but today, I have so much time left before my next appointment and if we don't finish, I'm not allowed to leave your copy package or the unsigned docs."

That usually ends the reading and lets them know who is in control of the closing. 

Thanks again Rebecca, I've never worded it the way you have, and that is not often a problem, but if I see that being a problem in the future, I'll certainly keep that wording in mind, I do like it!! Thanks!

Ron,

As a Notary Signing Agent myself, I too have had the "readers" that were described in the above situation. While I may not particularly "like" spending 3-4 hours with someone going over the papers, I see it as my commitment to my assignment that I accepted the responsibility of possibly being confronted with the same situation. I would definitely communicate with the Signing Service and Title Company afterwards about the fact of the LO not being available as well as the difficulty with the signers; but certainly not while I am there in the borrower's home with the paperwork. 

I may not like it, but I accept it. Some of the signings can be done in 30-40 minutes and these make up for the few that may take 2-3 hours. But my commitment is to my customer, regardless of the amount of time it takes to get the job done. 

Regards, The Roaming Notary

I have to say that not only do I agree with Becky - the things she pointed out about the closer's presentation jumped right out at me, too.  The closer presented the documents in the order she apparently printed or received them, rather than in the order of their pertinence to the borrower.  Nobody should ever be asked to sign anything on faith - and that's what this amounted to.  Present the documents stacked to suit the borrower's concerns: Hud, Note, Note Addendums, Mtg/DOT, Mtg/Dot Riders, RTC, TIL, 1003 ...  FIRST you do the loan terms, then you do the disclosures & other items which are reiterating those terms.

Secondly - it takes a ton of intuition and the ability to 'read' people to know what their needs are, and until you can figure out what they need - you can't MEET those needs.  If we don't meet their needs, we will leave a wake of dissatisfied people behind us.

These particular borrowers seemed to need to know their loan terms - and that IMHO was the seed that sprouted their next need, which was to read everything themselves right then and there.  They needed to understand and see for themselves what the heck they were getting into.  A more confident presentation with the terms of the loan clearly provided FIRST would have likely met that initial need.  Grant you, there are 'readers' but each of them has a need they're trying to meet, and it can usually be met w/out a 3 hour reading.

Anthony, I certainly agree, it WOULD be unprofessional to say that in front of the customer, and yes I agree, it is a commitment to the borrowers, but one thing to think about -  what about the next borrowers where you are then suddenly late.  You HAVE a commitment to them as well!  As I feel, and others have said, it can sometimes be a no win situation, and very difficult as well!! Most are understanding, both borrowers & LO/Title companies, but not all are understanding or forgiving.  Renee, prior to reading Becky's comments, I didn't see it that way, but as I said, after reading them, I did see her point, and yes, they probably did make a bad situation worse!  Or at least it seems that in fact may have contributed to the problem.  Originally I didn't see that.  Any thoughts about the potential contributing lack of communications from LO's that also probably contributed to this situation, and certainly others.  Like the amazing number that I mention that when I call borrowers and they have no clue I am coming, let alone know their loan terms.  That I really do not understand, because if I were a borrower in that situation, I would be upset about the lack of communications, and from NSA point of view, I do not understand, because that seems like a LO that is not only a bad LO, but they do not care about their job.  Thanks for the comments.

Ron,

Well, I bear in mind a few generalized things that I think are key to this whole dynamic:

• People (borrower's) have selective memories, and negative things are remembered over positive things.  A phone call not returned weighs more than 4 previous phone conversations.  Pre-disclosures they "never got" are often remembered as "oh yeah, I did get something - I just thought it was junk mail".  How many of them don't 'remember' anyone explaining they were signing an ARM?
• It's hard for us to 'unlearn' what we know, hard to remember how daunting and intimidating the mortgage process and the documents can be.  Hearing something over the phone is no comparison to seeing it in black & white, and then having to put your signature on it.
• There are surely 'bad' LO's just as there are bad NSA's, just as there are bad hair stylists and bad car mechanics, etc.  Overall, I truly think it's more a matter of the general public being fearful, lacking the familiarity that those inside the industry have, and the extreme difficulty for many in completely comprehending things over the phone that are SO very important to THEIR lives.
• There are often SO many different entities/depts/people who collaborate on a loan - and effective communication is a problem of far greater scope than just from LO-to-borrower.  The LO can only communicate what information he has, when he has it - and things can happen faster than anyone can catch up.  We get used to this - borrowers are the ones signing those loans, and they shouldn't be expected to 'get used to it'.  THAT is why WE have jobs, and in this vortex is where the opportuninty to shine as an NSA exists.  We're the face, the eye-contact, the living/breathing person who stops the clock and settles things down so everyone can take a deep breath, be provided the FACTS and have their questions satisfied.  Our value goes far, far beyond a scheduling convenience.

I guess my point it - whatever happened before I walked into their home is all moot at that point, and I accept that challenge of taking whatever I find and turning it into something that's pleasant, empowering to the borrower, and meets everyone's needs.  I think what I'm trying to get across here is a major paradigm shift that I so strongly believe needs to happen in our industry - I think you're seeing that, right? 

I think there are many factors involved in a successful signing that many do not take into account. Appearance, demeanor, confidence, reading the customer whether they seem to just want to get it signed or are leaning in to listen to your every word. If you are a people person and you really care about the people and what you are there to do, you will be aware of these indicators. If I cannot peg their knowledge and comfort zone, I will chat a bit before we start signing to ask if they are familiar with the terms, if they had a chance to review any preliminary documents prior to our appointment etc. Just to point me in the direction of how I need to proceed.

It is all a matter of the individual and what you would like to make out of your business. Granted it is not a money maker to sit for three hours but if that is what is required to ensure the borrower is comfortable with signing then so be it, if at all possible. There are any number of scenarios that each and every one of us could convey in this topic but they would be suggestions based on each of our habits, common practices and way of doing business. In other words, to each his own.

I always stack the package in a manner as to show the main items and terms to the borrower first. Any issues that may arise are likely to arise from those documents. They will be addressed and resolved either by getting a satisfactory explanation from LO, their resolve to continue based on the 3 day RTC and they can get answers the following day during business hours or their decision to stop the signing until they get answers. Either way, the NSA is on their way in an efficient amount of time. The key is the comfort you can instill in the borrowers with your presence and your competent manner.

I believe many times, the borrower's actions are based from the amount of confidence and organization the NSA conveys.

 www.unitednotaries.org/linda

Renee, yes, you make some VERY good points!!  Thank you for your time!  (BTW yes I got it  :-)  )

Linda, you point out some additional great points as well.  We will never know in the situation that was given, but you could also be bringing out some additional things that could have impacted this situation.  I know in my situation that I was mentioning in my comments (3 hours signing when borrower had week to review) confidence, communications, etc played no part.  He was just ornery, and not much I could do about him.  But the situation I was originally asking about, this could have been one more piece of the problem. 

BTW, I copied the comments and forwarded it to the signing company, and she was impressed with all the comments and feedback.  I know she appreciated it.  I know a lot of assumptions had to be made about this given situation, but the feedback was great and productive!  Thanks!!

Ron, I have found that most of the time when the borrowers insist on reading every single word of the document, it can be a trust issue.  I have found that signings will go smoother if the signing agent can establish that trust right from the very beginning.  Here are a few of my tricks:

1) Always go over the HUD first and explain the heck out of it.  I always try to make it my goal that by the time we get to the signatures and I ask the borrowers if they have any other questions about this document, their answer will be "no".  I even explain in detail the prorations and use that to branch off into when they should receive their general property tax bill, when the general taxes are due, and the whole process of the supplemental taxes (if it is a purchase).

Then, here are some good ways to earn some trust:

1) Make sure to point out on the note whether or not there is a pre-payment penalty, and make sure to point out that they need to specifically indicate on any principal payments that they are intended for principal.  These days we see a lot of interest only loans for an initial period so this is very important to the borrower and they always appreciate me pointing this out.  They feel like I am protecting them.

2)  Go over the Notice of Right to Sell/Assign/Transfer.  Make sure to explain that the Deed of Trust is public record and how anyone that know how to can view all the information on it.  Stress to them that if they ever receive any notice of their loan being transferred, they should treat it as suspect and double check with their current lender that the loan really has been transferred.

3) The W9 is a good one too.  Make a big deal out of making sure that their social security number is on there accurately.  If you explain that they are completing and signing this so the IRS will have record of their loan and be prepared for their interest deduction at tax time they feel like you are looking out for them.

4) Then move on with the shortest documents first.  If you take time to explain these documents thoroughly and the borrower reads them and see that what you are explaining is accurate.  They will eventually lay off the reading as they begin to trust your explanations.  Usually, by the time we get to lengthy documents, they have stopped the reading.

OK, sorry for making such a long comment.  I just know that this really helps me.  I absolutely believe that  as the signing agent, it is my job to make sure that the borrowers are comfortable with what they are signing and that they do understand it.  Once in a while, I will get a reader and then I just suck it up.

http://radicaltitletalk.blogspot.com/2007/11/first-we-need-ruler-compass-and-some.html

PLEASE JOIN US FOR DEBATE ON QUALIFICATIONS OF NOTARY SIGNING AGENTS.  ALL VIEWS ARE WELCOME.

Interesting link, Diane.

Ron

I have been closing loans for ten years, both as a mobile notary and as a title company escrow officer. The question of people wanting to read documents has always been around and probably always will. There is no right answer on how to handle it. If I have more than one signing scheduled and I run into this I let the signing company know whats going on and let them worry about the schedule. If they want me to stay I do, if they want me to hurry the current signing along and make it to the next one, thats what I do.  

Terry,

That's all well and good if your signings are for the same company, but when you have assignments from different sources it is not fair to your other clients.  I have been in similar situations and if no progress towards signing has occured within the first 30 minutes I will notify the hiring party of the situation and ask for approval to leave the "borrower's copy" with them while I go ahead to my next appointment. 

This gives them time to read/review whatever documents are of concern to them.  During my absence, they can hash it out with their loan officer and then give me a call if they decide to sign after all.  I then return and complete the signing, but not at the expense of my other appointments.  Although it may mean a little extra driving time, it doesn't have the impact that a potential 2 or 3 hour delay would have on my subsequent appointments.

Terry, your right, there is no absolute correct answer.  But the dialog on this issue has been great, and I think especially many new NSA's would benefit from reviewing this information to help them decide when they are in this situation.  Teresa, I think your idea is a great one as many have been provided here.  I've never done it your way, but it certainly seems like it would work well.  Thanks for stopping by!

Title company perspective: don't schedule another closing right after the current one. Doing so will compromise the service my client deserves on such an important transaction -- whether or not a rescission period exists. This is especially important in the current market with borrower lack of confidence in lending practices.

I assume that the mobile closers who survive this downturn will be the ones who insist on top notch service from their team (if they have a team) or who handle the closings themselves in such a manner.  The closing fees we pay are on the same level as attorney hourly wages.  That should result in a professional closing, regardless of whether a borrower is high maintenance.  When it doesn't we eliminate the service provider.  --Tom

Tom - you're obviously a savvy businessman, having tied together two related aspects - the fee, and the level of service.

I have an almost neurotic fear of being late for an appt (ANY appt), and I can turn THAT into a huge plus with how I manage my SA business.  I will pass on any assignment that eats into another assignment's time margins - and my margins are ridiculous.  I cover all the bases - possible traffic tie-ups even if I'm only going 5 miles, sudden blizzard conditions in July, lol!  I think for myself it's a part of that 'old school' work ethic, HOWEVER - I don't hand this over for the same amount of money it would cost to send the pkg over in a taxi, either.

There's a considerable SA population that follows an entirely different business model - taking all the assignments they get called for, and 'working' it.  As the economy eats little bites out of us every day, and the professional fees get to be such a struggle, and as SA's also face losing their own homes and struggle to eat - even if it is a case of being their own worst enemy sometimes, it can be really hard to debate the fine points.  I don't condone this type of business model, but I sure can empathize with some of the reasons behind it.

As a closer Ronald and having a interest in my company, I personally would have fired the signing agent. 95% of our closings are done by myself our one of our employees. Too many people think you can just give the client the paperwork, tell them to sign on the dotted line and they have 3 days to look it over.

This all relates back to the average customer has no idea what those documents mean. How could we give it to them and send them on their way? I had a closing about 6 or 7 months ago that came in at 9:10 a.m. It was a purchase and we had the buyers, sellers and sellers attorney here. They finally left my office at 5:45 p.m. Did I really enjoy spending my whole day in this closing? No, not really. This is what I get paid for. My job is to close files. Whatever that may take, as long as rules are not broken.

Our office does have a Signing Agent we use. I am 100% confident she would never act that way with a closing.

Unfortunately when something like this happens, it's because the client was dealing with an inexperienced LO, who doesn't care about informing them of anything. They just want to get them to the closing table and make their money.

Tom, while there really is no right or wrong answer, and like many said here, communications is important, I cannot schedule am assignment for 4, 5, or six hours apart, when an overwhelming number take about 1-2 hours.  I allow 2 hours + travel - ideally.  BUT, your looking at it from the perspective of being the first title company that utilized the NSA services.  What if you are the second title company, your client could be there sitting & waiting, and have things to do.  Obviously, communications is important, but it can be frustrating  as well, from all people involved.

Renee, it sounds like I'm more like you, but like you said, you can think you have 'all the bases covered' that you can think of, but still S&%^ happens, then your late.  Yikes, I hate that feeling, and HATE being late - like you said!  Like the NSA that this question started with, they know they have another client waiting, and that can be an issue as well!  It is tough, but it does happen.  If good communications occurs, at least you have the possibility of keeping all happy.  Poor communications, and your out!  No doubt about that one!

Dawn, like Tom, you are looking at it from the first title company perspective to utilize a NSA's time.  Yes, I had one that lasted 5 hours, but I was prepared for this going into it.  BUT, what if I had not been informed (like you said, LOTS of L/O's ARE NOT as thorough as they should be), and I had others waiting (ie YOU!!!)- AND YOU were the title company that had a client waiting for me to arrive, and waiting and waiting???  Obviously, as stated, GOOD communications is  VERY important, but IF I kept your client waiting, BUT informed, would you use me in the future, even let's say if I had them say 3 hours apart (ie appt # 1 @ 5PM, and yours at 8:30PM allowing 3 hours for 1st signing & 1/2 hour travel), but now all of a sudden, I'm running behind 2 hours because of the prior client from ANOTHER title company??  Are YOU going to be patient with me?? 

As many said, there is no right or wrong answer, and good communications is important, but EVEN with good communications, sometimes the NSA loses no matter what they do, and that is not right, but just the way it goes.

Ron, I don't necessarily think going into a closing we are prepared. To a certain extent, yes. In this business though, anything can happen. None of us really prepare for a closing to take more than 1/2 hour to 45 min. if it's a refinance and 1 to 1 1/2 if it's a purchase. I would hope that in a case like this, the NSA would have a backup and/or the title company would have one. With the person we use, we have run into that situation. What she did was, called us to inform us what was going on and asked if we wanted her to call our client we had scheduled. We told her we would take care of that and get back to her. After speaking to our client, they were understanding and wanted us to have the Signing Agent call them when she was on her way.

For the most part, if you are going to the customer, rather than them coming to you, they are understanding and don't mind if you run late.

Just like you said though, COMMUNICATION is key. I have always believed that if your honest in your communication with people, they're fine.

Each situation is going to be different and our perception of the occurrence which Ron describes will be perceived differently by each and every one of us. Did the SA speak respectfully asking for guidance or did he/she speak in a disrespectful tone? What we do is a juggling act and a team effort. Due to the fact that we deal with so many different companies and with the massive turn over of employees before and since the downturn it is hard to work on quality control of processes to aid in eliminating future problems at the table. If this particular SA is one that had been hired multiple times by this TC and had done a good job I would find it very unsettling to think they would be dropped so quickly for one indiscretion (if it were truly an indiscretion rather than looking for guidance). I do not believe that Ron's example mentioned anything about dropping docs in front of someone and telling them to sign. The example stated that he/she was very patiently going through the main details of the documents.

As I said, we all perceive the situation differently but in reference to your purchase with buyer seller etc that took all day, I would have to say someone didn't prepare or get enough information before coming to the table. There is no reason a signing should take from 9 in the morning until 5 in the evening. I would have to say from my perception of the situation whomever (not pointing fingers) did a great disservice to the customers in taking up their whole day to accomplish this purchase. Every document could be read in it's entirety and still not take that long. Again this is my perception. I think we need to take into account that each situation is different and to pass such quick judgment of firing someone over a situation you only have your own perception of from reading the details above is not practical.

Granted some signings do take longer but if they become the norm our fee would have to be increased dramatically. We cannot be expected to stay in business by booking signings 5-6 hours apart simply on a possibility of them taking that long. Considering two signings in the same city, I think 2 hours with the borrowers should be sufficient time to cover the main details of their loan. I CONTINUALLY hear how "they were much more comfortable with me and that I explained things so they could understand, not like the last time they signed at the escrow office. They dropped the docs in front of me and said sign". Consider drive time of 1/2 hour to next signing. That is booking 2-1/2 hrs apart. There will be the exception to that rule on occasion but we cannot schedule it as the norm. Where the lending and/or title industry can help is to be certain the borrower is informed and has received preliminary figures to review and to be accessible at each and every signing. Some LO's are dedicated enough to their customers that they supply a cell number to be available for questions. They even make contact with the SA with contact info so if there are any issues at the signing. Those LO's that choose to drop everything in the lap of the SA and get onto their next sale, do not deserve our time to sit at a signing for 3, 4, or 5 hours when a simple phone call would suffice. Those of us who are experienced, are able to give the borrower a sense of confidence but that only goes so far.

As was stated, what if it was your customer who had to be put off for 2-3 hours? Would you be understanding based on next time it might be your client that needs the extra time?

Someone stated that we are receiving attorney level fees for our role in the loan process. That is entirely untrue. My attorney bills at $250/hr. Even an attorney billing at $150/hr. We are far below that. Do you know of any attorney who is on call 24/7 to make enough money to continue working in his profession?

To be honest with you Linda, the closing of mine I was referring to, took as long as it did because the seller happened to have their brother with them who was an attorney. This attorney, did not practice Real Estate Law and frankly was a complete moron! Needless to say he made the whole thing a complete mess. Arguing over seller paying fees towards closing cost that stated on the Contract they would pay. There is a huge story that goes behind why this took as long as it did. The buyer actually thought it was comical, sat in my office and ate lunch with me and even sent me flowers a week later.

Florida really isn't like any other state, obviously. I did a Blog on KICKBACKS and it seems from the response I get, Florida is the only State that does this. So I wouldn't say a closing shouldn't take that long or there must be something wrong with the people involved. It happens here. For the most part, down here in Florida, we the title company are given the package to prepare a HUD the day of closing. We can only do so much.

On the other side of things, how does it look to the current customer that you are rushing to get things signed because you have another closing waiting? Every client should be treated as if they were your own. We all know this isn't true but they should be treated that way.

As I stated, someone should have had a backup plan. That again was neglect on both parties involved.

So, this was an exception. Gee couldn't you have thrown in a hint about UPL on the part of the attorney brother to get him to keep quiet? hee hee

Each customer IS my own, IMO, I totally agree that each customer should have our dedicated attention and time. Something that maybe helps in many instances is letting them know how much time has been allotted and that the purpose of this aptmt is not to read every word but rather ask away and I will find the answers for you and cover the main high points that borrowers usual want to see.

Now, of course, a purchase is different. We have to be prepared to spend more time when the signatures make everything final. It's all part of knowing the industry.

There have been several discussions regarding answering a cell phone when at the table. In the past I have put it on vibrate and did not answer. My time is dedicated to the borrowers I'm with at that time, however, I have been treated abruptly by companies that are trying to get ahold of me for the signing I'm at. These days I apologize to the borrs and answer the phone. If the call is not for their signing I ask that they call my office for other matters because I am in a signing. I have the luxury of being a husband and wife team.

I would never actually put a borrower off 2-3 hours myself unless they had an open evening and didn't mind. If I couldn't accommodate the time frame they need I would either hand it off to my partner or I do have back ups that I would call to take over the signing. I feel it is better business practice to accommodate the best you can without jeopardizing customer service than to hold tight to that signing at the expense of the borrower. It's just good business practice that will profit you in the future.

www.unitednotaries.org/linda

Oops. Sorry I wasn't logged in on the above post.

www.unitednotaries.org/linda 

$150-225 for 30-45 min refi closings = attorney rates, imo.... --Tom

Tom, no NSA that thoroughly & properly explains the documents consistently does a loan signing in 30-45 minutes.  If you have a borrower that doesn't want explanations, then you might get closer to the 30-40 minutes, but most want explanations.  Most are at least 45 - 75 minutes at the signing PLUS driving times and such and these days, try more like $100 - $200 tops.  If signing company, very few are more than $125.  If title company, you ~might~  be able to get the $150-200.  Reality check Tom - NSA's are NOT making attorney rates when you factor in the driving time, as that MUST be considered!

I don't consider the drive part of the services provided and generally pay the same fee no matter where the closing occurs. If you advertise coverage of a certain area, you cannot then cry foul when you have to drive a ways to cover the closing. 90% of the time 45 minutes is plenty for an owner-occ refi. Loan docs are non-negotiable; an educated blurb about each doc should address borrower needs; and the bulk of the attention centers on ~5 documents. My reality is that we pay handsomely the few outside closers who we still trust with our closings. They are small companies with a handful of regular closers who we are comfortable with.  --Tom

I cover NW Iowa. Are you suggesting I charge the same fee no matter where the signing is in NW Iowa?!
I have a fee schedule that I offer to a company upon sign-up. I don't cry foul when I have to drive. They know my fees up front and it is their choice whether to call me or not.

I got a call the other day to drive to a far corner of my coverage area, beyond really. I offered to refer them to someone in that area. There response was that they wanted someone qualified.

This was a 2 hour drive and 100 miles. If I had charged my local rate which is for travel up to 20 miles to the borrower and added mileage according to the IRS allowable mileage rate of $.485 plus my $25 print fee it would have totalled $518.

Now how can you argue with the IRS determined rate for mileage to account for auto maintenance and operating expenses? I'm sure you would like to see that rate higher when you do taxes and lower in determining a fee to be paid for a Signing Agent to facilitate that signing. My mother always used a phrase, 'You can't have your cake and eat it too'.

Now, I did say I COULD justify asking the fee of $518 based on the IRS mileage rate, however, I didn't.
My fee was quoted at $270. $270! Half!

My local fee is $100 plus $25 for edocs. That allows me up to 1.5 hours with the borrower and an addt'l 1/2 hour for print, prep, fax backs and travel time. $100 divided by 2.5 hours is an hourly rate of $40.

Now account for the cost of maintenance of my auto, office equipment, gas expense, the fact that I am on call 24/7, insurance, commission, certifications, health insurance, income taxes.

And don't tell me I can't account for those things. That is logical business to incorporate your expenses into your fee. If you drive from home to the office and stay put for the day then no you would not account for your auto expenses. Our job is all about travel so the borrower doesn't have to. The problem arises when the companies hiring the Signing Agents have a mentality that we are housewives out here working for a little extra spending money and want to compensate accordingly.  And it is unfortunate that the certifications in place have actually allowed the untrained person to facilitate a loan signing. That, however, is not the fault of the Signing Agent. That is the fault of the industry who agreed to the lipservice of a certification that was being dealt out! Now the competent experienced Signing Agent pays the price for it!

You state that you have a few outside closers you still use and pay handsomely. If you don't pay for the travel I would have to wonder if that supposed 'handsome' fee is in the eye of the beholder, yourself, or the desperation of some experienced Signing Agents taking a lesser fee with no compensation for travel to try to hold on waiting for the industry to turn around. In addition, it would seem you are adding a middle man to whom you can place the responsibility of screening for qualification so you may not really have any idea of the qualifications and the price actually being paid to the Signing Agent. You just know what you are paying out to the Service to locate and screen. So I don't really see how you can actually talk about fees at all.

Oh it is time, my friend. Time for change in a major way! Change to bring only qualified agents to the table. Change, Experience and Licensing does cost and as with anything the cost will be passed along.

www.unitednotaries.org/linda

Linda: I love the $25 print fee.  Like you would rather drive to my office and pick up a printed package!  Hardly.  It is a pad to your service fee disguised as an expense pass-through and as such it should be included in your calculations re hourly rate.

As for mileage, you take the deductions on your tax return.  Are you suggesting that I should help you double dip?  Sorry.  Taking a closing 100 miles out of your zone is not something I recommend any closer do.  It essentially guarantees 1 closing in 5+ hours.  Not a great business decision in terms of time or cost.... but at least you got a fee you were happy with.

I know exactly how much the loan closer actually gets on each file because I discuss the matter with the owners of the companies referenced in my prior post in the process of setting the fees we are willing to pay. The reality is that the use of outside closers is a business decision -- generally convenience vs cost + liability.  We can handle the work in house, so when closers price themselves too high and/or do the job poorly they find themselves without work.

I agree it is time for a change.  Closers got very comfy over the past few years and those who don't adapt to the market as it changes will not survive.