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Amid a Lousy Real Estate Market, Law Suits, and Rumors, is Bobby Ginn Imploding? Not from My Viewpoint.

By
Services for Real Estate Pros with Real estate commentator; GoToby.com, Take Action Propertiesi

October 4, 2007 - Palm Coast, Florida - Over the past few months, things in Bobby Ginn's world seem to have been disassembling. Bobby now faces a total of seven law suits; two related to his real estate empire and five to his personal foray into and embarrassing exit from NASCAR racing. Some property owners at The Conservatory at Hammock Beach, mostly investors, are rattling sabers because they find themselves unable to flip lots purchased at the market's peak. Ginn has a new president, Robert Gidel, who, not coincidentally, has very close ties to Lubert-Adler, Ginn's longtime funding source (story). Gidel will be responsible for all aspects of the day-to-day management and operation of Ginn Resorts. Most recently, Credit Suisse pulled back its financial support for The Gardens at Hammock Beach, his latest Intracoastal golf community in Flagler County. And sales at projects under development are sluggish, a dramatic departure from the former days of "pre-sold with a waiting list."

This flood of unwelcome news, fueled in part by a lack of solid communications coming from the Ginn organization, caused a lot of consternation among Ginn club members, property owners and Ginn watchers. But communications have started to flow and, from where I sit, things look a lot better than the impending train wreck forecast by Ginn detractors.

Lubert-Adler stepped in to take over funding for The Gardens (story). In fact, Ginn has renewed activity there, taking a look at fine tuning development plans to allow a phased opening better suited to today's market conditions. Lubert-Adler's relationship with Ginn goes back much further than Ginn's relationship with Credit Suisse. They better understand the long term development cycle of large projects and the interruptive effects of intervening market conditions. They have supported the recent acquisitions of Bulow Shores (story), a prime Intracoastal property near the Gardens and the BriarRose Community near Atlanta (story).

Communications have begun to flow. Ginn met with Conservatory property owners (story) and began measures to enhance marketability of their properties. These measures include temporary incentives (offsets towards club dues and property owner's association fees) to encourage residential construction. Bobby Ginn recently communicated directly with club members and property owners (story) to update them, including the announcement of the new president and additions at other executive level positions. Most importantly, he stressed that construction activity continues at all Ginn projects. And finally, three months after his appointment, a press release yesterday announced Robert Gidel as the new President of Ginn Resorts.

I'm not trying to put a pretty face on things. The market is really tough. In the past, Ginn could rely on buyers drawn from the community of real estate investors and speculators, many of whom had profited in early Ginn projects. With quick appreciation no longer likely, they have moved to the sidelines. He will need to learn how to sell to a totally different buyer - the end user, the person who will actually build a house and live on the property. Unlike the investors, these buyers cannot be counted on to follow Bobby from one development to the next.

There will also be much pain and many personal tragedies. The Conservatory will long be cited as the benchmark of what can happen at the top of the market, when irrational exuberance creates prices that are too high and when speculative investors cannot find buyers willing to pay yet higher prices. The music stopped and there were no chairs. I visited The Conservatory today. There are yet no resale transactions. The market has not found a price level where buyers are willing to step in, but this development has a lot going for it. The golf course and soon to be completed clubhouse are magnificent. Once the market determines the true value (price) of the lots, transactions will start to happen. Though narrow, all lots are well positioned with nice views. The Conservatory is a fiber optic community. The property owner's association fees include, phone, data cable, security monitoring, landscape maintenance, and irrigation. This will be a nice place. Unfortunately, most of the people who build here will pay less for their lots than the people from whom they buy them.

I imagine there were some "come home to Jesus" meetings between Bobby and his financial backers. If so, these meeting succeeded to the extent that they played a roll in Bobby's retreat from NASCAR, the appointment of a new president with vast industry experience and ties to Lubert-Adler, the new marketing and sales management team, and a comprehensive communications strategy to assure property owners and quiet rumors. Bobby remains the face of the company as Chairman and CEO as well as its visionary. With his attention refocused on executing his vision, backed by a solid management team and committed financial backers, things in Bobby Ginn's world may start looking up. Let's all hope so. The contributions of Bobby Ginn's developments, sporting events, and charitable giving to the Flagler County economy are immeasurable.

Toby Tobin is Editor & Publisher of GoToby.com, the popular real estate news, information, and analysis website for the City of Palm Coast and Flagler and Volusia counties in Northeast Florida

Terry Haugen STAGE it RIGHT! 321-956-2495
Stage it Right! - Melbourne, FL
Bobby Ginn has done such a good job managing the company, they have laid off around 300 employees to date.  Given that, he'd make a hell of a president of the U.S.  He could continue what bu$h has started.
Oct 04, 2007 12:41 PM
Toby Tobin
Real estate commentator; GoToby.com, Take Action Propertiesi - Palm Coast, FL

Terry,

 Given the down market, I would be surprised if there had not been layoffs.

Oct 04, 2007 01:22 PM
Kathleen West
Trademark Realty Group of Palm Coast - Palm Coast, FL
Flagler County & Palm Coast Realtor

This is great information, Toby.  And as always you state it beautifully.  I think Ginn has been great for the area, and provides great vision.  I loved the recent Golf Tournament and the coverage the Golf Channel provided.  Unfortunately, our area has seen some challenges and like always some are trying to find where to "point the finger".  What I hear a lot is that "the market is bad", but truth is more that the market is more along the lines of just not being what we would care it to be most times.  As you point out, too many are seeking large returns quickly which may have been the case for a short period of time but has never been the case in real estate over the years.  I think the issues brought up about the Conservatory are a great example of this.  The fact is we are still seeing sales of just residential properties at about 100 per month.  Sales to listing ratios are still a bit high at 1:3, but fortunately have remianed in tact as the number of sales has reduced compared to last year.    And land sales have gone down for obvious reasons in realtion to the amount of great properties that are for sale many of which are move-in ready.  Overall, our area is very attractive and it will take some time to stabilize but we are seeing signs of that now.  And we are seeing much more attraction to the 4+ bedroom market as pricing has come more in line. 

Pricing, yes, is presenting challenges.  But there are many misconceptions even in that area.  Pricing is being taken too lightly at times, and often strategies are to simply lower price to try to spur attraction without getting any feedback and instead of looking at other things which could be creating barriers to selling.  For example, I just had a conversation with a woman the other day who paid to have her property listed on MLS to sell on her own.  After several months on the market with no interest, she reduced the price twice.  She rationalized from all that she has heard that it was because the "market is bad" and that's the problem with selling.  After doing an analysis for her, I found her pricing to be a lot lower than it should be priced at.  For her, the greater issue is marketing of the property not pricing. 

Overall, I see great things to come and it's an easy "out" to simply say the "market is bad".  Ginn is providing great things for the area and great vision to help spur the luxury component and the tourism anemities to the area.  Again, great information and thanks for sharing.

Oct 04, 2007 01:25 PM
Toby Tobin
Real estate commentator; GoToby.com, Take Action Propertiesi - Palm Coast, FL

Kathy,

Thanks for your comments. Just as the post dot.com bubble brought stockholder suits, the real estate reversal brings on developer bashing. The speculators that got caught are bound to angry. The media treatment doesn't help either.

Locally, the inventory is dropping slightly. And prices for single family residential homes are relatively stable. As soon as buyers decide the bottom has been reached, activity will pick up. Also, the commercial real estate activity in Palm Coast (Town Center and Cobblestone Village) will soon answer the "where do I shop?" and "where do I eat?" questions.

Oct 04, 2007 01:40 PM
Anonymous
Mark
Bobby has a long history with real estate in several Hilton Head Plantations and I was wondering how that history plays with all of the extensive real estate investments he is developing now.
Oct 29, 2007 02:24 PM
#5
Toby Tobin
Real estate commentator; GoToby.com, Take Action Propertiesi - Palm Coast, FL

Mark,

 Bobby seems to be avoiding the anti Ginn South Carolina bumper stickers with his current real estate ventures. His financial backers have deep pockets and are patient. They have taken steps they feel necessary by placing some of their people into key positions at Ginn to safeguard their investment. On the personal side, Bobby's move into NASCAR has been a total flop, both from a financial and public relations standpoint. At a recent NASCAR event, a banner plane trailed the message "How much money does Bobby Ginn owe you?"

Oct 29, 2007 11:39 PM
Anonymous
Bryan
None of you must of been involved  witH Bella his flagship community. My family got involved and may loose everything. All the promises and lies from the agents along with dates that were misstated on construction and other events were up to a year off. When it started to look like the golf lots were to open they were to be at $300-400m they opened at $600-900 now look. When we started we were to hold a lot for a few months and turn it to make money to invest in Bahamas that was to open at 300-400m now look at the price. All this I know to be true as we were there from the start and got holding the bag. And many $100m's of dollars lost all our family savings going to foreclosure.
Mar 25, 2008 06:09 PM
#7
Anonymous
Bob

Anyone have news regarding Cobblestone Park in SC?  I visited there (May 28th, 08) and noticed the no progress with clubhouse.  It's been sitting stagnant on the foundation for several months. Any news?

May 29, 2008 07:30 AM
#8
Anonymous
Bill

Bryan, do you know there is an action against Ginn on the Golf Course lots and the Red Lots at Bella Collina, Ginn has breached the Inter State Land Sales Act and 2 Attorneys have filed suits against Ginn for approximately $50m if you want more information email me at billboylan@mac.com These Attorneys are also filing suits for The Conservatory, Cobblestone, Briarose, Yacht Harbor Village, Tesoro, Quail West and Reunion, so if anyone bought direct from the Developer you can take action and 1 Attorney is so confident of winning he is doing the 1st case on a no win no fee basis.

May 29, 2008 08:35 AM
#9
Anonymous
Forrest Logan

It has been requested of me to reply to this blog as far as a Ginn Development - Cobblestone Park in Blythewood, SC.

Numerous residents, including my husband and me, had built homes ( our choice) in early 2000 in what was then called The University Club.  We chose to relocate to this area ( originally being from the Midwest) as we were impressed with Columbia and the accessibility to the mountains, ocean, Charlotte, etc.  The UC WAS a warm, friendly, and happy place to live eventhough it had been having financial difficulties.  Many residents use their golf carts to stop by and visit their neighbors as well as for golf.  It was just great here and we had a say in how what and what did not take place here.  Our HOA and club dues were very affordable.  Life was good.

Along came Ginn in 2004 and our small part of the world started to collapse on us, eventhough we were unaware of it at the time.  Ginn hosted lavish parties, one after the other, an overabundance of landscaping started to appear, more and more parties ( all complimentary), very unattractive spec homes built with ridiculous pricing, mega communications from Ginn as to the launch, tons of overnight UPS mailings, more and more hype as to what the Ginn Lifestyle would be for us.  It all sounded good, but almost an insult to ones' intelligence as to how a quiet community with about 60 oppupied homes, and a fabulous golf course could change in such a short period of time with lots priced at 3X more than we paid, and surrounded by homes with list prices of $700K+.  I have learned to listen to my "gut" and sure enough I was right!  We were not and still are not into grandiosity, but unfortunately are being billed for it on a quarterly basis.

From the very beginning, we had requested that Ginn make an effort to communiate with us as to the upcoming plans for development, what our issues were since they have taken over our lives and why none of our questions were ever answered, muchless adknowledged.  We were promised and promised and promised that they really did care about us since and we now would be living here experiencing the Ginn Lifestyle.  We were naive enough to think that courtesy would be provided to us existing residents.  Live and learn.  We have never received it to this day. Bobby Ginn has never taken the time out of his busy life to meet with any residents eventhough we had expected him to do so at some point. Logical...right???

At our HOA meeting in 11/07, we were told that he had some sort of "throat issue" and had to fly back to FL.  At that meeting, the "talking heads" from Ginn were extremely aloof with none of our questions or concerns addressed.  They attempted to cram down our throats that we really did need to have CONNEXION installed in our neighborhood as (1) it was the largest fiber optic company in the world (2) we would have our TV,phone,computer, etc. systems controlled by one company as opposed to using our provider of choice.  Obviously this would mean that our HOA dues would increase again.  To make a long story short,  in May, 2008 Ginn did notify our Director of Property Services that we would not have to change any of our current providers as they had decided to just install CONNEXION in the new areas of Cobblestone Park....lucky people!  CONNEXION IS ANOTHER PRIVATELY HELD COMPANY.

Since our HOA meeting in November, 2007, we have not received ONE communication in any way shape or form from Ginn even when they stopped construction of our new clubhouse which was expected to be open by Labor Day, 2008.  HOWEVER, the same time construction was started on our new clubhouse, THE $2M++ "signature" bridge on the road to the clubhouse was started with the entire main road closed to traffic from July 2007 to the end of April of 2008.  What a waste of $$ again on the part of Ginn.

We do however, have a new Amenity Center that boasts a JUNIOR size Olympic pool, small fitness room with spa rooms ( that is a stretch) new tennis courts and a HUGE gym.  Speaking of the pool, the decking around the pool gets so hot, neither man nor beast can walk on it unless you have on shoes. The existing 2 pools we had were so much better in many, many ways!

Now keep in mind, we already had 2 pools, a small building to order lunch, shower, etc.  with attendants bringing you food and suppling towels.  As well, we already had 5 tennis courts with much space to construct more.  It was a great meeting place day or night.  Those faciliities remain unused and the building vacant.

The landscaping company that Ginn hired in 2004 is owned by a Ginn muckety muck VP's brother.  Ginn did not put this contract our for bid last year. At the 2007 HOA I posed the question as to why it had not been put out for bid and  were told that Springdale only has a guarantee for their plantings for 6 months!!!!!!  I obviiously got the picture that stupidity and nepotism was alive an well.  This landscaping company was given an easement from their new office location which backs to the main road running through CP.  As well they have a public road which they can use and then go in and out the construction ? entrance, but NO.  Trucks, trailers, utility trucks, etc. go up and down our streets 5 days a week, all day.  In most of the cases, they are spending an enormous amount of time installing sprinkler systems, sod, trees and mega $$$ landscaping in the NEW areas north and west of "Hampton Place".  There is not a soul even thinking about living in the new areas eventhough they purchased lots.  It is a ghost town, but sure looks pretty!  WE are being billed for this area's maintenance as well.

The Ginn employees on sight do not or cannot address any of our concerns.  Security, for which we pay $500M a year is a joke.  We have a guarded gate at the entrance to CP, but the rest of the property remains wide open for anyone or anything to walk or drive in and do what they want.  This did happen several weeks ago and the mobile Security vehicle did not see the stolen truck that had crashed into the construction gate 3+ hours previously until  a resident called and said his truck had been stolen?  The crack head drove the stolen truck right out through the GUARDED front gate when he was finished breaking into cars and stealing items that were left in the vehicles.  To make mattes worse, Security had NO clue as to the "proper procedures" to deal with the problem, so they called Florida for advise!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry for my ramblings, but THIS Ginn development needs to have the same exposure of it's serious problems  as those in FL. This is all unfortunately due to a company that has no business selling real estate as a result of the "dreams and visions" of Bobby Ginn.

Their are foreclosure taking place here, but I am not sure of the numbers.  They increase every day wiith owners/investors not paying Club dues, HOA dues or taxes.

This blog has NOTHING to do with purchases made at the 2005 launch or since.  This is a statement of the true,hard facts of day to day life in Blythewood, SC which is not good.

May 31, 2008 05:52 AM
#10
Toby Tobin
Real estate commentator; GoToby.com, Take Action Propertiesi - Palm Coast, FL

Forest - Thank you for taking the time to post. A picture of vacant lots with unpaid property taxes, foreclosures, and POA issues is beginning to emerge at several of Ginn's developments.

May 31, 2008 06:50 AM
Anonymous
Bill

No-one is more perfectly positioned to speak about Cobblestone than Forrest, being there Pre-Ginn and Post Ginn and showing the differences Ginn has made and all of them to the detriment of the Residents. Hopefully Ginn will be at the Grand Opening of the Bella Collina Clubhouse, if he does not turn up what does that say about his attitude to his 'Jewel in the Crown' Development. I will let you all know how it goes tomorrow.

May 31, 2008 08:29 AM
#12
Mike Norvell Sr
Morris Williams Realty - Leesburg, FL
Norvell Consulting Group

I was briefly involved with a  small family group of investors who had over 40 Ginn proeprties between them...there were three families..and they were being foreclosed on all the properites...bought pre construction and now the loans are past due, lives are ruined, credit is ruined, and yet they still had hope that Ginn would make the deals good until the end...I never met the guy, but they had and could not believe the Ginn operation would allow them to lose everything...

May 31, 2008 02:22 PM
Anonymous
LONDON
The facts are simple Ginn realtors were instructed to mislead investors. Some of the owners are very wealthy and powerful people that were lied to and cheated out of their money. It is tough to do business from out-of-state never mind out of country. The Ginn Company took advantage of this. In the case of the villas in Reunion, as people were backing out of their contracts Ginn realtors insisted they were selling for 750,000 to 800,000 (great profit from the 660,000 thousand launch PARTY prices) to force you to close. Yes that is fraud in the very essence of the word. Bobby sleep well you crook!
Jul 23, 2008 05:48 AM
#14