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About three years ago, Honolulu was inundated with an avalanche of "No Money Down" seminars. People like Robert A***n, Carlton Sh**ts and others made a killing on the hot market frenzy in full swing at the time, and filled up venues at the Hawaii Convention Center and the Blaisdell Arena.

The evidence that these seminars had come to town would be hard to miss in the following weeks. Just as mushrooms sprout in the pastures after a long soaking rain, the "We Buy Houses" signs, purposefully scribbled in crayon on cardboard, would sprout along roadsides and at neighborhood intersections.

This year however, there was something different. At my open houses, I did not have the usual influx of "investor" clients handing me their new VistaPrint business cards, affirming their status as serious "investors". There was none of the dialog formatted to convince me, the real estate agent, that this "investor" would be bringing me big business; I just have to find him the "right" properties, and soon we will both be rolling in dough. This year, I only noticed two such seminars that came to town, as I could not miss the full page ads in the Sunday papers. But there was no explosion of "We Buy Houses" signs in the weeks that followed. 

For this, I give thanks. I am thankful that people seem to have wised up to these snakes in the grass. I am thankful that the public has not wasted their hard earned money chasing the pipe dream that these late night TV Seminar Evangelists have poisoned the airwaves with. Most of all, I am thankful that there will be less misinformation and propaganda to counter in the weeks and months ahead.

For example, I will name two of my favorite (or should I say, least favorite) examples of the type of damage these seminars promulgate.

Example 1. Seminar students are encouraged to purchase properties using the "Subject To" clause, as in subject to the underlying mortgage. This is legal, but it is extremely high risk to the property seller. In this situation, the seller relinguishes title to their property, and the "investor" promises to make the payments to the seller's underlying mortgage. The "Investor" may, or may not make the payments. He probably will sell the property to someone else, and actually convey legal title. The Seller is still liable for the original mortgage, which may or may not have been paid. Also, most mortgages today have an alienation clause which entitles the lender to demand payment in full if the homeowner transfers his interest in the property. The seminars actually tell their students not to worry about this, the lenders don't care who pays as long as they get paid. What do you think?

Example 2. Students are encouraged to become bird dogs for the Seminarians. And the students are actually paying for the privilege. Imagine that; they pay to go to the seminar, then the host "graciuosly" asserts that if the student finds a true deal on a property, but does not have the cash to get the property tied up, the host will generously fund the purchase and give the student a finders fee. The teacher gets the deal; the student gets a few crumbs.

There are lots of other crazy tidbits that could be mentioned, such as students taking options on properties, then trying to sell them for a profit before the option expires, sandwiching, trying to get escrow companies to go along with their schemes, writing their own contracts, etc. But for now, it seems as if Honolulu has wised up, and for now "No Money Down" seems to have left town. Good riddance!

P.S. I do wonder if the legitimate 100% financing may have put a dent in these schemes. If so, GREAT!

 

27 Comments on No Money Down, where art thou?

NOV
29
2006
153,066 Points 21 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor

Great Post Michael! We saw such activities taking place in the Los Angeles area as well. I try to explain this to some of my "investors" and they just shrug me off...What can you do?

Scott

12:05pm • #1
787,783 Points 20 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master
No money down - or OPM (Other Peoples Money) down.  Offers abound - especially from overbuilt builders desperate to clear inventory from their books before December 31st.
12:07pm • #2
186,345 Points Outside Blog
people that buy into this are so brainwashed they dont realize this is a direct form of coercion and fraud.
12:55pm • #3
1 Featured Post

Michael,

I do agree that the nothing down people tout it as a get rich quick scheme a lot of times.  But it's amazing what you can do with an open mind and thinking outside the box.

 

Three examples of my own over the past year or so.

  1. I purchased a 500k building in a good location, with commercial financing and received back 20k at closing, with nothing out of my pocket
  2. I purchased a 290k 5 unit building and received 15k back at closing, nothing out of my pocket
  3. Purchased another 500k worth of 4 duplexes, just paid the realtor fee for the selling agent, on contract.   


I have probably purchased $7 million over the past 7-10 years with maybe 1% of the purchase price out of pocket.    This is in Indiana, were the average home price is only 150k.

I don't like doing the subject-to type deals, I usually just do a contract sale with the title still staying in the sellers name.  In 10 years, I have yet to hear of a loan coming due, even if it was taken subject to.   The lenders have enough problems with default, there is no reason they would call a note due for fun just because it was being paid by someone else, if it is on time, etc.

I have a couple of townhomes I purchased on contract 4 years ago.  Interest rate of 6%, no money out of my pocket.  Great area near downtown Indianapolis.  I took over his payments.  I have been paying directly to the lender for 4 years from my company checking account, and have had no one ask why it's not coming from previous owners.

I do agree that most people looking to do these type of deals want a quick buck.  I am looking for long term growth over 15-20 years.    If you do buy with nothing down, you still need to have adaquete capital reserves for when things need fixed, etc...something a lot of these no down people don't talk about.

I have probably been to every single workshop, read every book, own every nothing down book and cd ever recorded or written, but it has paid off for me.

I am curious, how many rentals do you own?  If you've never done it yourself, how can you state it doesn't work?

Quick edit.  I also did this by the time I turned 30 years old, coming from a broken home with just the shirt on my back at 18 years old.

1:05pm • #4
109,957 Points 2 Featured Posts Outside Blog

I Buy Houses!!!

Or should I say I help people buy houses although I do buy a few myself...

I still see those signs around! Excellent post and happy those "investors" have left town! 

1:12pm • #5
106,205 Points 23 Featured Posts

Very interesting post, and I also appreciated Craig's reply.  It is nice to see both sides of the coin represented.

Personally, I have a situation with an investor that is not quite no-money-down, but he does qualify for 100% financing.  His goal is to create cash flow.  For about $10,000 out of pocket, he will create a $340 per month positive cash flow.  His out of pocket cost will be repaid in less than 30 months.

1:38pm • #6
448,236 Points 36 Featured Posts Outside Blog Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

Michael,

You missed the point! Those "seminars" are just sales presentations. They talk about real estate because it's the universal American Dream. People have the Dream; they need help, help they are not getting from their real estate and mortgage brokers. They need education they can't get in any traditional school. Unfortunately, almost none of them will get it from the get rich quick real estate "seminars" There is great information there, but the people that need it have no way of locating it amongst the hot air and sales pitch!

A few weeks ago I went to the first and last day of a "Robert A..." "Seminar" on the first day I watched them take in over $150,000.00 for tapes and books who's value is almost entirely to the seller, but the dreamers felt they were doing something to help themselves! These dreamers pay big money for the "secretes" because they believe only those in on the "secret" get rich totally forgetting it takes hard work. Everyone wants to be rich, but few are willing to do what's necessary to become rich!

I have a real problem with your examples. Buying "subject to" is a great tool, selling "subject to" is a "God Send" to sellers who's' only alternative is losing the property to foreclosure! The problem with this approach is that many of the investors have no more morals than their Gurus.

There is a whole world of real estate that doesn't involve a 6% commission! It's a shame that we don't teach this in high school or college, but we don't teach it to our real estate professionals eather. That's a fault in the system and a lack of education not a criticism of any individual! Take a look at my articles:

"For the Same Reason A Plumber's Pipes Leak"

http://activerain.com/blogsview/For-the-same-reason-a-plumbers-pipes-leak-?7969

"Creating Equity From Nothing"

http://activerain.com/blogsview/23249/Creating-Equity-From-Nothing"No Money Down Real Estate3 Investing Programs"

http://activerain.com/blogsview/For-the-same-reason-a-plumbers-pipes-leak-?7969

Example 2. How can any salesman nock "Bird Dogging? You may not like their product but "Bird Dogging" is as old as mankind! Some call it evangelizing, but it's Bird Dogging.

I'm glad "Honolulu has wised up" here in Las Vegas were having our fifth wave, this year of these "Gurus" here starting this Friday, and the really big names will all be here in January.

The 100% financing programs have only limited affect on the type of investors.

Keep posting this stuff needs a lot more discussion.

Respectfully,

Bill

William J Archambault Jr

The Real Estate Investment Institute

http://www.reii.org

 

1:49pm • #7
8 Featured Posts
I just want to comment to Michael and Bill - this is a great discussion.  Not everyone has to agree!  Disagreement, when done respectfully, is a wonderful thing!
2:06pm • #8
448,236 Points 36 Featured Posts Outside Blog Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

Kaushik,

There is no right or wrong here, just different perspectives.

I don't yet know Michael but I'd bet we agree on a lot more than we'd disagree on.

Bill

2:34pm • #9

Hi Michael,

I would agree in part with the "No Money Down" program.  However, it is working well in certain areas of the country.  Robert "A" is back in action in the midwest with late night infomercials. 

2:57pm • #10
570,084 Points 100 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Hit Router

Michael - Great Post!!!! 

It has some similarities to my post Get Rich Quick or Just Dummies?

You have stirred up a brisk discussion.  Just because someone is making

money holding seminars does not make it a good thing.  Michael, you hit it on the head.  You said just what many of us feel.

I am also glad to see a lot less of the "I Buy Homes" littering the sides of our roads.

I feel the question about whether the alienation clause was exercised or not is irrelevant.  The people I have seen in our area do not even mention this risk to the sellers. 

In our Hawaii market these tactics were not used in most cases to save someone from foreclosure.  They were used to separate an owner with lots of equity from his home for less than he could have gotten on the open market.  In some cases the buyer never made mortgage payments and the seller's credit was wrecked.  If the buyer can't flip it for a profit fast they just walk away and leave the poor seller sucking wind.  In Hawaii very few of these are penciling out with positive cash flow so holding is rarely part of the plan.

I know I probably am poking a few who disagree with me.  I had a similar argument with Realtors who do mortgages.  Their argument was how much money I could make.  My response was drug dealers make lots of money and I won't do that either.

3:41pm • #11

Michael,

Prior to becoming a Broker and Auctioneer, along with my husband we purchased and sold over 500 properties using the Subject To method, so this method does work and we have never purchased a Guru course.

Then about one year ago I became a Broker and Auctioneer, because we realized that all these ARM and No Interest loans would be coming due so we changed course so to speak.  We saw where the foreclosure market would start to rise and normal creative investing methods would start to decline as you mentioned they are currently doing.

 

What our plans are along with helping home owners sell their properties in a fast and proven method, we added the “Short Sale” Auction Method for the home owners that needed help.   The majority of these home owners cannot use conventional methods to sell because normally there is not enough equity to warrant a commission or in declining markets the property may not be worth what is owed.

We have created a win/win/win situation for these people using our short sale auction method.   A broker can still be involved and receive a commission, whereas they might not have been able to if the conventional method was used on the pre foreclosure properties.

There are different methods that can be used to help home owners albeit creative or conventional. Working together is what helps all of us learn and provides solutions to get the job done.

3:52pm • #12
3 Featured Posts

Wow, great responses everyone!

Randy you summed it up very nicely. Thank You.

Craig, In principle, I agree with almost everything you say. I bought my first three properties after being inspired by Robert A's first book back in 1977. Yes, there are valuable lessons to be learned, if you can cut through the c**p and are willing to work at it, and if you can get the necessary funding.

Bill , I think you are saying what I am saying. The seminars are a rip off, e.g., $150,000 for tapes and books of little value. Sorry you don't like my examples. Example 1 I think is adequately defended in Randy Prothero's comments. There are better forms of alternative structuring. As for my Example 2., I did not knock bird dogging. I knocked the idea of paying for a seminar just so you could become a bird dog.

Kaushik thanks for reminding everyone to agree to disagree tactfully!

Scott, Tony, Eddie, Rich and John Thank you all for your valuable comments as well. I should have guessed the seminarians have found other fruit to pick!

4:13pm • #13
3 Featured Posts

Betsy, your comment came in while I was typing up my responses. Thank you for your input! I can appreciate what you and your husband are doing, and I commend you for doing so with a sense of ethics and morality. You are absolutely right, there are certainly situations where the standard models will not work for people and alternatives must be found. I am so glad that you did not waste your money at any of those seminars!

The point I wanted to emphasize is that the seminars that I am familiar with only superficially pose as a salvation provider for the truly desperate, and claim that they provide a win/win for everyone. Because they do not explain the pitfalls of certain methods, and whitewash the risks that can be had, they make all solutions they preach appear to be no-brainers. Certainly, the "Subject To" clause is a legal option, but there are huge risks associated with it. As Randy said, none of these risks is ever even mentioned at these seminars.

There is validity to what they preach, it's how they preach it that is offensive.

4:24pm • #14
228,061 Points 9 Featured Posts Outside Blog Attended Rain Camp

i hate it when this happens too....

i gets calls from people with 500 fico scores and NOOOOO money trying to qualify for 100% investor loans.

 

sigh

 

5:41pm • #15
113,616 Points 6 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor
I echo everything that's been said. There are creative options that can and do work, but as Michael said, cutting through the cr*p is essential. i got started with the "no money down" CD's several years ago, and what it basically did was inspire me to do further research and seek professionals who had experience with investing in real estate. 4 years later, I bought my first investment property. It certainly didn't happen "quick" like the courses promise. I had to learn the business from honest, dependable people who have done it.
6:52pm • #16
2 Featured Posts
...buyers are getting smarter.  Once bitten-twice-shy.
7:35pm • #17
125,663 Points 24 Featured Posts
I always know who watches late nigh TV.. and who went to the latest seminar.. Yes it may work for some people but not for most of the population.. cuz if it was so easy why are these guys hawking the courses instead of collecting their millions..
8:38pm • #18

Kaye,

Had to chuckle a little over your question, as they are collecting their millions, only not from real estate investing.

Some of these type of Guru's materials are owned by marketing companies, they are basically figure heads who collect their money as a paid spokesperson.

I can just imagine the marketing meeting for the next infomercial going something like this.  "how about throwing in this secret method, we don't know if it will work, but it will sure sell more product." 

9:01pm • #19

We Buy Homes................

If I had the money, I would buy anyones home for $100-200K under its market value too. Desperate people in desperate situations don't realize how much they are being taken advantage of until its way too late. Or they are just in denial over it.

10:01pm • #20
27 Featured Posts

Interesting post and comments.  Coming from the mortgage side of things, I realte these seminars to the advertising regarding Pay Option ARMs.

They are heavily advertised and presented as if the 1% rate is an interest rate and not the rate the payment is based on.  The risks are not presented, only the rewards.  As such, way too many homeowners got into these programs that had no business being in them!

Are the POA programs good?  Yes, they can be the best thing for some clients, but you have to seek the true professionals and decide if they are the best thing for you.

As you can see, the POAs and the way they are advertised are very much like the way the seminars you mentioned are presented.  One sided presentations of a potentially good strategy that can have disasterous results if not handled properly!

10:16pm • #21
3 Featured Posts
I recently heard someone refer to one of the men as Carlton Full of Sh**ts.  There is definitely a place for the no money down and the wise investor.  Unfortunately, as it is with many "get Rich Quick" ideas, there are few people that actually do, except for the ones hawking the stuff.  The savvy investor will do well, and the poor folks who spend money for these things typically just end up spending the money.
10:43pm • #22
NOV
30
2006
566,349 Points 79 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master
I know a couple from Seattle who did the No Money Down Thing...they were not successful, but working together to see if they could make money in real estate saved their marriage...so I guess there could be that upside....
12:11am • #23
275,884 Points 4 Featured Posts Outside Blog
Now this is a really excellent and informative post!  I'm grateful you took the time to detail the issue and at least one potential solution.  Thanks for the post!
1:28am • #24
1 Featured Post

the problem most people have is actually taking action.  Everytime I go to a siminar, I am blown away by how many people are not doing anything.  I would say between 90-95% of the people at any siminar have never purchased a piece of investment property.

Why do I continue to go to the siminars?  Just one great idea from a two day course will net me 10-20-50k.  Well worth it for just that one new idea.

 

 

 

4:32am • #25
144,919 Points 2 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Great information.... Anyone Remember Tommy Woo?

Well he's in jail or at least was.

Some of these late night TV shows make it sound sop easy, everyone thinks they can do it

10:34am • #26
570,084 Points 100 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Hit Router

Just remember at least according to the commercials Woo got all the girls.  That is as long as he didn't lie about that.

11:09am • #27

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Michael S. Mackey REALTOR® ABR, CRS, GRI, RSPS

Mililani, HI

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CENTURY 21 All Islands

Address: 94-799 Lumiaina Street, A-1, Waikele, HI, 96797

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