Special offer

Reverse Compounding

By
Mortgage and Lending with RealMortgageTraining.com

I got to tell you a story about a client I talked with this week.  But before I do, I want to remind you and make it clear that when I discuss the POA, I usually talk in generalities, nothing Lender specific.  Well, this week I'll deviate just a tad.  I won't mention any specific Lender, but I'll be talking about the way one particular Lender does stuff, in terms of the inner workings of the POA.

I won't mention the Lender because I'm not here to "pimp" any particular Lender.  Also, I'm sure there are other Lenders that do the same thing, so it's not fair to mention just one.  My point is, and this is something I've ALWAYS said, make sure you understand the parameters to the specific Lender's POA program, DON'T ASSUME THEY ALL DO THE SAME THINGS in regards to the inner workings of the POA.

OK, now on with the story.  This guy is purchasing a new home.  Let's just say the purchase price is over $500k, he's putting down 80% so he's only seeking a 20%ltv mortgage.   The dude has some massive cash he's dealing with. 

Of course my first goal is to find out why he's putting down so much to begin with. 

His goal is to pay off the mortgage as quickly as possible while at the same time pay as little interest as possible.   

At this point, we could have gone into "investment mode", where I mention to utilize a lesser down payment and invest the remainder and have it grow... bla, bla. (which is NOT what I'm licensed to do, by the way)

BUT, my number one job, if you remember reading what I wrote last week, is to convince the guy to get his mortgage with ME.  After he knows, likes and trusts me (I got that philosophy from my coach, thanks Jeff!), then we can go on.  But for right now, I'm focused on my number one job. 

So, he wanted nothing to do with anything but a 30 yr fixed.  "No problem," I said, "But I wouldn't be doing my job properly until I find out a few things about what you're trying to accomplish."   I found out his number one goal was to pay off the mortgage as quickly as possible by paying extra $$ towards principle each month. 

From this, I asked "would you rather pay a lower interest rate or the least amount of interest?"  Which, by design, triggered a conversation about the difference between those two concepts. 

*Tip: understand the basics of this statement before you mention it*

As I was explaining how this particular POA actually can accelerate the amortization by paying extra towards principal, he said "so it's kind of like reverse compounding, right?" 

I never thought of it that way, but that statement made sense.  When you're investing, you can compound your interest.  When you're paying down equity, you're reversing the potential negative equity. 

BUT, that cannot happen with a fixed rate mortgage, because it stays FIXED, nothing changes.  With certain POA's, since the rate changes and the interest is figured on the remaining balance, guess what?  You are paying interest on a smaller dollar amount, which means more and more of your payment goes towards principle, which can accelerate the time it takes to pay off the mortgage.

Most people think of the POA as a way to generate cash flow, so this concept is almost counter intuitive.  Think about it for a while, it really does make sense.

Now, my point is, if I would have started off by trying to convince him to put less money towards the house and invest the difference, I wouldn't have done anything at all to set myself apart from the next mortgage person, which is my goal to begin with.

Just another way to use the "inner workings" of the POA in your favor.

Comments(21)

Anonymous
Les

Hi,

I looked into this recently with my lender, and they wanted to set up an automatic withdrawal from my checking account bi-weekly and pay a fee of $399 dollars to enroll and every transaction after that would encurr a fee of $3.00. I'm currently sending an extra $50.00 per month towards principal. The lender also has a online software that I can tentavly see what my outcome savings would be if I send it extra money, using their bi-weekly program. I also checked to see if I could do that without enrolling into this program and send them the money on my own every two weeks and they told me no. They also said that I could on my own send my monthly payment with extra equity, but I would n't save as much as I would using their program. Is this true? Is this even legal?

Leslie

Aug 06, 2008 01:30 AM
#2
Andrew Poletto
RealMortgageTraining.com - Englewood, FL

As for the legality, I couldn't tell you. Maybe someone else on this board can.  As for the bi-weekly thing, that's a bit tricky.  As far as I know, there has been only ONE true bi-weekly payment product available and that was with World Savings Bank (who is no longer in business as they merged with Wachovia)  Oh sure, there were other places that offered bi-weekly payment programs, but they weren't TRUE bi-weekly. 

I'm not sure if Wachovia does any new true bi-weekly payment programs any more. 

The reason it worked with World Savings is because World Savings help the paper, they never sold their first mortgages. 

I'm sure there are programs out there that run numbers all day long, but IMHO, unless you have a true bi-weekly payment program, you'll be doing just the same if you take your monthly payments, divide it by twelve and send that amount in each month with your regular mortgage payment.

No need to pay a $399 fee and an extra #3/pmt. 

Now, there are other acceleration programs to pay down your mortgage quicker that may require refinancing, but that's something I'm not familiar with, so I don't want to comment on it. 

Hope this helps.

 

Aug 16, 2008 03:46 AM
Anonymous
Sharisse

Alright, new to all of this.  But, what about just diverting say $200.00 biweekly to a savings acount through direct deposit.  You know, out of site out of mind.  Don't touch till the end of the year at which time it should be $5200.  When you make your December payment send in this amount as an additional payment principal only.  Shouldn't that help with the amount of interest compounded on your payment if you keep this up?

If this is possible, after 10 years of diverting just 200 biweekly you will have paid off approx 52,000, or do I think it's more simple than it is?

Just wondering.

 

Oct 19, 2008 09:42 PM
#4
Andrew Poletto
RealMortgageTraining.com - Englewood, FL

Great point.  This original post was written about a year ago.  At that time, there was still one or two companies that did a "true bi-weekly", meaning that once the principle reduction payment was applied, the loan was "recalculated" so to speak. (yes, it gets more technical than that so don't flip out on terminolgy)  Interest was then recalculated on the newest balance, so with the balance being smaller, there would not be as much interest accuring, therefore accellerating the interest reduction thingy.

As far as I know, there is no longer any lender doing a "true bi-weekly", so your theory of putting $200 a week away and paying $5200 is a great way to do it. 

I'm sure someone will make a comment and have other possilbe ways to make that $5200 even more advantageous for you.  But I like the way you're thinking outside the box with this stuff. Keep up the great work!

Oct 20, 2008 12:57 AM
Anonymous
Curious Newbie

Interesting blog.  I have to ask a dumb question: does POA stand for "Power of Attorney" as it relates to this blog?

I was watching an early morning infomercial recently that mentioned Reverse Compounding as a way to reduce debt, payoff your mortgage quickly and so on.  Just curious if the concept is actually a genuine one or if the infomercial host and guest were full of crap?

Oct 23, 2008 01:28 AM
#6
Anonymous
greg
Sounds to me, like they were in the "full-of-crap" category, lol. If it was the one where a guy was telling the woman, it was started in Australia, and just now coming to the USA. I just happened to see it today, it was called "Mortgage Free" & was on Dish 197, Doc. Channel. I think he was just trying to get money for his little book.
Dec 05, 2008 08:48 PM
#7
Janice Roosevelt
Keller Williams Brandywine Valley - West Chester, PA
OICP ABR, ePRO,Ecobroker

Sounds suspicious

Dec 05, 2008 08:55 PM
Anonymous
Raokindness

I also would like to know what POA stands for, because I have never heard it used for anything other than Power of Attorney, and that really doesn't make sense here.  Also, I would like much more of an explaination about these mortgages that are supposed to help you pay of in 3 or 5 or 7 years, with no extra money per month income and no extra money out of pocket.  The best I can figure, is they say to get an open ended mortgage (which seems an evasive way to say a line of credit on your home), which they all seem to be able to make money selling you.  Then they seem to want you to leverage against your home to invest and then use the money (that you hopefully make and not Lose) to put back to paying of your house and other debts).  But all the investors that I feel are reputable, tell you never to leverage to invest, because you can loose your shirt and in this case you home?

Dec 06, 2008 05:45 PM
#9
Andrew Poletto
RealMortgageTraining.com - Englewood, FL

POA = Pay Option Arm.

As for the type of mortgage which you can pay off in 3-5 years, I have an idea of what it is, but really not for sure. I'm sure someone else will talk about it.

Dec 06, 2008 10:45 PM
Anonymous
Avergage Joe

       A closed loan is one in which you have to pay full amount each and every month (Mortgage payment, Car payment). An open loan is one in which you can pay in different ways (Partial payment, Principal only, Interest only.                                                                                        

       The way that the one where the guy that was talking to the woman and that it started in Australia is simple but it definitely works. There are some things that make it work over other loans that most people are used to. First, it is a Home Equity Line Of Credit (HELOC). Second it is a principle only loan.Third it has to have as many deposits and withdraws as you can get. And your savings are tied to the HELOC with overdraft protection.

       Your mortgage payment is calculated by the interest rate of the loan divided by 12 months. If your mortgae payment is payed on the 1st of every month than interest is accrued everyday for 30 days until your next payment. Your principal only goes down when you pay a payment.

       If you have a HELOC for $10,000. for example, and you borrow $5,000. and put it toward your principal on your house, you only pay interest on the money borrowed not the whole amount.You also put your paychecks and savings back into the HELOC paying down the amount borrowed. You pay your bills and other expenses regularly like you always did except that you have overdraft protection.

       Everything that you put into and take out of your HELOC is tax deductable and also only half of your HELOC is used in case of emergencies come up.

       I have been doing this with my mortgage fro some time now and i will pay my house off in Feb. 2010. I can also send you some information and material if anybody is interested. Not sure if we are allowed to post emails but here it goes ChrisDL@ymail.com

Jan 25, 2009 02:04 PM
#11
Anonymous
Susana

Thank you Average Joe. Sounds like a good system.  My question is where do I apply for this HELOC -- my mortgage lender, my bank, my credit union or my insurance co.  I have had a HELOC before they ask what I will use loan i.e. a home improvement or something. Then they give me the interest rate which is prime rate + 1%.  I realize I must do my homework and research it.  But I don't know which financial institution will be more beneficial to my situation.  I currently have a mortgage 4.5% interest -- an ARM will adjust next year.

I am just guessing but I think that the institution should be local or maybe not because I can use direct deposit.  Can someone please help my dilemma?

Thanks

Feb 28, 2009 04:49 AM
#12
Anonymous
Kara

The HELOC talked about earlier is offered by a bank called American Guaranty.  They have have this HELOC called "My bank, my loan, my way."  Everything you need to know about it is on the following website:  http://www.mybankmyloanmyway.com/homefree.html .  Hope it's okay to post this site.  Ii don't work for the bank (homemaker here).  My husband and I have been looking at this option as we're looking to move out of our neighborhood before it becomes the rentalhood.  Sad market..  Hope this is helpful to y'all.

Mar 04, 2009 08:01 PM
#13
Anonymous
Average Joe

KARA:    I read your blog and it interested me. So I did some reseach into what you were saying and came up with some interesting conclusions.

              First: on the "calculate your debt" part of the website they talk about refinancing your loan. Either the first mortgage separately, or the first mortgage and other outstanding debts combined. While lumping them into a consolidation loan makes sense, having to pay closing costs to refinance defeats the purpose of what your trying to accomplish in the first place. A HELOC should be considerd a second mortgage on your house. Not a combination to replace the first mortgage.

              Second: I decided to call the company and see if I was not understanding this correctly.They assured me that this is exactly what was being done,but that this would reduce your overall monthly expenses dramatically. Is that what you really was trying to accomplish? At closing, you will be probably handing over a check for a small amount to complete the settlement, the rest of the closing costs( all of the fees too numerous to list) would be tacked onto the mortgage itself. The only advantage that I see to refinancing in this manner is if you are in a bad first mortgage to begin with. A high interest rate, or adjustable rate mortgage for example.

             All I am trying to say is that there is a better way. Having a HELOC as a secondary loan has several advantages that otherwise are not possible. Ther are principles that you should have in place to take advantage of this: Your HELOC should be interest only. You should be able to deposit and withdrawl from it as many times as possible. Have as little fees involved as possible. Keep in mind your HELOC is tax deductible in most cases.

            The theory is that you use your HELOC to pay down large amounts on your mortgage with your regular payment. In turn you deposit your paychecks and savings back into the HELOC to keep the balance as low as possible as long as possible. The difference between what you pay down on the principal of the first mortgage over the entire loan is negated by the little amount of interest you pay to use this HELOC. Understand that you can pay off your other debts the same way.

            Let me use an example. Lets say you have a $20,000.00 HELOC. When your mortgage payment is due you take $10,000.00 out of HELOC and apply it with your payment. The principal would go up dramatically on your next payment. Your interest would go down the same amount on the next payment. Your interest on the $10,000.00 from your HELOC would be lowered by putting your paycheck back into your HELOC as you recieve them. Your mortgage and your HELOC are both calculated on average daily balance. The mortgage is calculated on the entire amount of the principal of the loan. The HELOC is based on the amount that you owe($10,000.00) daily for roughly 30 days. Lets say your combined pay was $1500.00 weekly. After 7 days the amount would go down ($10,000.-$1500.=$8500.). 7 days later ($8500.-$1500.=$7000.) and so on. At the end of the month you will have paid back $7000. of the $10,000. you borrowed. This is called Reverse Compounding.

           This process continues until you have to make another withdrawl from your HELOC and start it again. I hope this clears up some of the confusion. Can you see where you can dramatically reduce the interest you pay to the banks at the same time pay off you house so quickly? Save thousands of dollars in refinancing and thousands of dollars in interest at the same time?

           I know this has been a long post and again I apoligise. If anybody is interested in more information or materials on this subject I would be more than happy to help. I can be reached at : ChrisDL@ymail.com

 

Mar 09, 2009 07:26 PM
#14
Anonymous
christine anderson

Hello,

Good grief,,this is my first time at this site. I've been trying to google "reverse componding",

I don't mean to be stupid, but I guess I'm behind the eight ball.  In layman terms what is "reverse compounding?" It souds like I need to take out a loan to pay off my mortage.

I'm just tired of living paycheck to paycheck, and having a mortage till the day I die.

There are so many ripoff schemes out there, I'm afraid to try anything.

So please give me the pro's and con's of this.

Thanks so much for any advise you can give.

Christine

Mar 15, 2009 02:24 PM
#15
Anonymous
Elaine

Can this be done with a loan that has a second? 

 I had a daughter who has a house that she has lived in for 30 yrs, borrowed to  pay off credit when her husband died 10 yrs ago, then borrowed more to fix the house up it needed a lot. Now she is stuck with a large loan, a large payment, and a $16,000 second.

I think she should give the place up, she won't. I told her that she would be better off renting. But she has MS, and the house is changed to help her get around. But has a huge yard to care for and no one to help her.

Oh, by the way, I am writting this on April 1st, 2009. I think that things have really changed since the blogs that I'm reading here were written. Also am in N. Calif. Probably won't work anymore with things the way they are. I'm sure that she has no equity any longer. I guess I am writting because I hate seeing her in this situation. She does  work full time with the state, and has for many years.

 Elaine

Apr 01, 2009 07:44 AM
#16
Anonymous
Elaine M

Thanks for the info on American Guaranty Moetgage we need all the help we can get. I went to their site

and they say they are a banker however I can't seem to find them listed with the FDIC. If I am going to deposit money in their bank I need to know if my money is insured. Someone please enlighten me.

Elaine M.

Apr 08, 2009 05:47 AM
#17
Anonymous
Paul
I have 2 mortgage loans. $82000 that I brought down to $80000 in 2 yrs and a $21000 loan that I brought down to $14000. I pay $560 on loan 1 and $260 on loan 2 plus $3400 of other bills. My income recentely went down to $2500/month. Can anyone tell me how and if this reverse compounding will work for me? Do u think the bank will still qualify me for a HALOC? I have a truck that is supposevely worth $19000 and it's paid for but it's under my dads name. If I was able to get a loan for that truck how can I smartly apply that money to my mortgage loan. I also have a property that I only owe $14000. I thought of paying the property off with the truck loan. If I do that I would end up with minus my property monthly payment but plus the loan against the truck title. Any suggestions??? I know and I am possitive there is a solution it's just a matter of knowing how to work my numbers right. Thank u in advance.
May 11, 2009 11:43 AM
#18
Anonymous
Mr. Mr

Chris,

I reading your method of Reverse Compounding (response #14 above), where the person takes $10,000 of a $20,000 HELOC to pay on a monthly mortage and then using weekly paychecks of $1500/week to pay back the HELOC, I have a couple of questions:

  1. If the family is paying $1500/week back to the HELOC, is the assumtion that $1500 is only a portion of thier weekly/monthly income?  How do they pay thier other bills?
  2. Based on their weekly income, if the family can only pay back $6000 month to the HELOC, why pay out $10,000 to the primary mortage?  Why not just pay out what they can afford to pay off the HELOC each month?  If they repeat the scenario you describe, they go deeper into the HELOC each month going forward.

Seems to me that a if a person has extra money each month, they should simply pay more on the mortgage each month just as you would with the HELOC.  Sure the HELOC gives you the ability to pay a greater one-time amount, but you still have to pay on the HELOC.  It's just paying Peter to pay Paul.  Did I miss something?

Mr. Mr

 

Jan 16, 2010 04:27 AM
#19
Anonymous
shelley

I now get the frift of using the heloc deposits to offset the interest. I cannot withdraw on my heloc since the banking crisis, although I was never late. My question is, along with paying extra every month, is it possible to split your monthly payment into daily payments and so paying off in advance up to 30 days, daily? Would this reduce overall interest by paying early in this format without extra payments such s bi-weekly? I was thinking to set up recurring payments on my account. I currently pay extra whenever I can. Thanks.

Jan 24, 2010 12:54 PM
#20
Anonymous
Nancy

Hi I just saw the guy hawking the book tonight!  I am curious as to how one qualifies for a heloc because I currently am unemployed and only have pensions and rentals to help me.  I did not qualify for the home modification due to my circumstances and quite honestly really need the help.  Thanks for any assistance in my situation. 

Feb 28, 2010 03:45 PM
#21