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Sherman and Broker Bryant mount up for battle!

I woke up today in such a good mood. My Seller, mentioned in my last post, received his money late yesterday afternoon and I had a pretty light schedule today. Then I read my E-mails only to find that our MFRMLS rules have just been changed and the rules relating to Range Pricing have effectively been altered enough to make this technique worthless. Now folks, if you have read my posts, you know that Range Pricing is what I do. I have used this technique on all of my listings for 12 years and have been very successful with it.

Below is the exact wording expressed by the NAR and MFRMLS attorneys in 1996, when this battle was first fought:

With Range Pricing, the Seller agrees with the listing broker to consider offers within a certain price range and allows the property to be marketed using that range. However, since the MLS requires a specific listing price to be entered, it is in the listing broker's sole and absolute discretion to choose the price to be entered as the "list price".

This is the exact wording of the new ruling:

Section 23. Range Pricing: Range pricing is defined as that pricing technique in which the seller agrees to consider offers within a range stated in the listing agreement. When submitting a range-priced listing to MFRMLS, the Listing Participant must:

Indicate that the property is range priced in the appropriate block of the MLS data form.
State the range in which the seller will consider offers in the first line of the Public Remarks which must state: Range Priced-Seller will consider offer between X (insert dollar amount) and Y (insert dollar amount) with Y being considered full list price.
Enter the list price as the high price of the range.
Enter the low price as the low price listed in the range.

Now folks, what this does, is make Range Pricing useless. And in my opinion, the rule change they have enacted is illegal. This Range Pricing battle was fought 10 years ago and the legal opinion at that time was that, NOT allowing Range Pricing and NOT giving the Seller the freedom to choose, whatever figure they wanted, within the Range, as the list price was in direct conflict with the Sherman Act. Here are the opinions of the legal counsel at that time:

POINT: NAR and MFRMLS attorneys have stated firmly that Brokers are free to use Range Pricing as it violates neither Code of Ethics nor FREC (Florida real estate com.) regulations.

WARNING NOTICE

Upon advice of MFRMLS legal counsel, this is to place MFRMLS's Participating Brokers and their agents on notice that REALTOR Associations and MLS's are PROHIBITED by federal and state antitrust laws from adopting any rules which attempt to control, interfere in, or regulate the lawful business practices of any member. To do so would constitute restraint of trade.

Further, legal counsel advises that we remind our Participants that ANY attempt by brokers or their agents to organize or attempt a concerted refusal to deal with any broker using range pricing may constitute a per se violation of the Sherman-Clayton Anti-trust Act and may subject those in violation to severe criminal and financial penalties.

Therefore, this MLS will NOT consider or adopt ANY rules regarding range pricing, nor be a party to nay actions which attempt to influence or force changes in the lawful, ethical and non-deceptive business practices of a broker choosing to use this marketing technique.

Broker Bryant is now preparing for battle. Tutas Towne Realty, Inc.'s business plan is built around Range Pricing and has been for 9 years. This new ruling was clearly put in place by a committee that does not have a clue about Range Pricing, so have decided it's just easier to do away with it. Well, my only response to that is, sue me. I will welcome the opportunity to state my case. Sherman and I will hop on our horses and ride into town armed for battle!!!! So giddy up!

Posted by Bryant Tutas Broker/REALTOR(R) Tutas Towne Realty, Inc on 12/06/2006 03:57 PM

Comments (91)

range pricing, anti trust, opinion

91 Comments on Sherman and Broker Bryant mount up for battle!

DEC

2006

Reserved Parking For Number #1 TLW...ROAR!

And so is The Lovely Wife. Giddy Up with my ROAR!

Before I begin you should all know that I used to sit on our local BOD and I was a Director for our local MLS. Not to mention all the Committees I volunteered my precious time to.

This crap ticks me off. We have fought this battle before and we will fight it again. ROAR!

This happens to us every time we hit a Buyer's Market. When other Realtors find that the Range Priced homes are selling they get frustrated. So rather than use Range Pricing themselves they spend their time trying to stop Range Pricing. How sad is that? Imagine, instead of going out there and drumming up business they b***h. Personally, I would rather make money than spend my precious time complaining and whining about how much business others are doing. Geez. Go sell a house. :)

It is unfortunate that we have to fight this battle again. But, we will. I am looking forward to it. ROAR. We will fight it until they change it back to reflect the right of a Seller to Range Price their home. Range Pricing is not illegal in Florida.

I know the Attorney that advised our MLS that they were violating the Sherman Anti Trust Laws. He did some serious homework before making his recommendation to our Board.

When I sat on our local MLS BOD I actually had a Gentlemen with every possible little pin you can have on a lapel, look at me and tell me I was breaking the law by Range Pricing our homes. "Oh, really? Who told you that Sir?" Pretty odd, don't you agree folks? You would think with all those pins he would at least have a clue on what Range Pricing was before he stuck his foot in his mouth! ROAR! Must be a tasty foot. :)

So, we will shoot ourselves forward on this and do it with the speed of light. Phone calls have been made and the protest has just begun. We are not the only ones in our area whose business has will be affected by this new ruling. We will fight this battle together.

I mean really who wants to take on Broker Bryant and The Lovely Wife? Not many. We will team up and we will enlist our peers and jump on Sherman's horse and say "Giddy Up With A ROAR!

P.S. This new ruling is a backwards step for our local MLS. Broker Bryant and I don't do backwards. Forward motion only. Backwards is against our Company Policy. :)

TLW "The Lovely Wife"...Bring It On Guys. We Are Ready For Ya...ROAR!

I sure wouldn't want to be the one in your crosshairs!!
do i get parking space #2? I dont have my password, so I'll be back!

I think you have a case. I'm behind you.. and by that I mean literally, right behind you so I'm protected.
I contacted my MLS and they never got back to me!
From your post it looks like MLS is behind you as well..
go get em!

good luck

I sure hope you win this battle! When I discussed range pricing with my manager I was told that the high end of the range is what we needed to put in as list price (which, as you know, defeats the purpose). I agree that this is clearly "restraint of trade" and Senator Sherman would be cashing in some of his earmarks to fight it...hopefully your fight won't cost you $$ (hard or soft).

Good luck! And let me know if I can do anything to help. Remember, I weild the power of TV advertising and interneTV via my husband...I would be happy to help.

Hey BB, I'm very sorry to hear that someone messed with your great tool. Range pricing hasn't really taken off in this market so I do not know that much about it. Has Senator Sherman ever been a Realtor? Does he have a clue about how it's done and why? Probably not. I hope you can win your battle. Sounds like a big one. Good Luck!

You have the truth in legal terms behind you, BB and TLW.....

Sounds like a high powder -- hollow point bullet loaded into a large caliber rifle equipped with a high power scope....

"One Shot...One Kill....."

Go Recon!!!!! :-D

That bites! I know it's crude, but I don't know how else to put it.

I think your pricing method is genius btw!

For clarification, the MFRMLS is stating that you must put the higest price in the range on the MLS listing, is that what they're saying?

Jessica, that is what they are saying. And that defeats the entire purpose of RPing. By using the high price as the list price all you have done is created an overpriced listing. And you right, IT DOES BITE!!!

I wish you guys all the luck, dealing with this. You really know range pricing, and it is sad when "ignorant" people - or people who are ignorant about something are the ones making rules for or against it.

WOW...

What a way to ruin a great start to the day. You start off high as a kite and then come crashing down.

First I am a little surprised that no notice of this proposed change was sent to the members. Did you catch wind of this prior to receiving todays notification? I would have thought a representative of the board would have given you a heads up or at least notification that this was coming down.

It would be nice if the MLS lived up to their Mission Statement.

I'm assuming the board of directors of your MLS voted this in. Do you attend board meetings? Is your MLS owned by the Board?

I am glad I wasn't part of that vote. I have sat as a BOD (board of director) representing our local board yrs ago just like TLW.

What I did find was there can be certain people who will push their own agenda on certain boards and weaker members will fall in line right behind them. Sounds to me there is a power play going on at your MLS. I would have thought that someone would have referred back to the previous boards decision and findings.

I wish you the best of luck.

Jay

Alex...I'll let you know if we need Re-Con. I may take you up on that. :) TLW...ROAR!

Jay...Do you know about 'spiking'?

That's when the BOD Directors vote their friends onto the Board to make crap like this happen. (wink wink) lol...

I have seen this more times than I can count!

TLW...ROAR (Giddy Up)

Bryant... I had to go read your Range Pricing Post to fully understand your ire. Now I do. Your strategy makes complete sense and benefits both the seller and the buyer. There is no logical reason to do away with either side's benefit. Go get 'em.

It has also made me think about our own product. We don't provide a space in our price field large enough to handle true range pricing. I need to correct that. Thank you for opening my eyes.

Wow..What a shame.

I'm hoping you can turn this over BB and TLW.

Up here as you know we must enter the high as the list price BUT our High is usually the actual mid cma price range...so we're not doing the OPT(over priced turkey) route.

Good luck with your battle.

Monika

Wow, another enlightening blog. I never heard of Range Pricing. I'm sure it would be illegal here, but I like the concept!

Thanks for the post!

Michael, I would be very very surprised if Range Pricing is illegal anywhere. I don't believe a LAW could or would dictate how a seller can price their home. That's where my issue comes in. Our MLS is trying to prohibit something that is totally legal and ethical because they don't understand it. Well, IMO, it ain't going to fly.

Hey Bryant,

Can you get some of the other local brokers together who are also upset and start your own MLS. Now I have no clue what that entails but I did hear a story of some brokers who did that before. Just a thought.

Jeff, I am glad you can see the reasoning behind Range Pricing. It makes complete sense. Realtors don't like it because they try to complicate it. It really is pretty simple. What they don't like is that it makes the buyer play his card first when it comes to negotiating. TLW and I were getting pretty bored so this should be fun.:)

Bryant,

You strike me as the kind if guy that will just keep doing what you've been doing and that seems like a good approach. Put your next listing in as you always do. If the "board" approaches you to change it, ask them to forward a request in writing to your lawyer's office.

You'd think that the board could find some actual problems to work on.

TLW,

Been there done that and bought the T-Shirt. It's all political whoever can help move their agenda will be placed on the board with them or they strongarm them to think their way.

Very Sad! Sometimes boards remind me of high school.

You always have your bully and his friends.

Thanks Jay

'Jay'...I know. I was just making sure that you and I were on the same page. Of course you've seen it.

Anyone that has ever sat on a BOD has. It's part of what we humans do when someone gives up too much power. We abuse it. Bummer.

I don't do bullys. I take em out. To me that is sort of a hobby. :) Most enjoyable one at that. LOL...

Hunnee, they are messin' in my post. Nick left a present for you please check this out and...

Have a laugh compliments of Nick. :)

TLW...ROAR! (Giddy Up)

I just read your post few days ago about rang pricing and I though it sounded like a great tool. I had a talk with my manager and he said it was. Now it looks like I found out about it too late. I hope you win. I am a new agent and thought that I had a chance to do something that the rest of the people in my office weren't doing. I cleared it with my manager and everything.

Hey David, This new ruling only affects my local MLS. You should go for it if you have clearance.

BB and TLW:

Margaret Mead's famous quote is repeated often because it is so true:

"Never underestimate the power of a small group of committed people to change the world. In fact, it is the only thing that ever has."

We are Agents for the Seller; The homeowner is the one who dictates how he/she wants to price the home when listing. THAT"S ALL as far as I'm concerned.

Peter, you got that right. The MLS is wrong and will lose. In the meantime i will continue to do what I do. The whole thing boils down to the good ole boys trying to control something that they can't. After rereading the legal counsel that they received back in 1996 I can't believe they just did what they did. Sherman has been in effect since 1890, nothing has changed.

Fran, one of my favorite quotes. I refuse to go into their box! I'm claustrophobic:)

BB And TLW - on a serious side - I do feel for you. Something has been taken and I stand behind ya to get it back. If the BOD has any clue as to what they are in for.. Good luck and seriously - I am behind ya..

Hey, look at the positive side. You are going to have plenty of blog material for the next year or so. And we anxiously await future posts on the subject! Go get em!

BB and TLW......

Gods truth is what it is.....angels are standing by.......

Shermans law would have to be overturned by someone who is JUST that stupid...and from what you have written the law has NOT been overturned.....just circumvented.....and reinvented....

and then swept under a very very VERY bumpy rug.....

I trust your lawyers will be paid by the MLS for their time and energy....(how stupid they are...those MLS people)

Tune us in as to the results...ok?

Alex. We know we are right. That's why this battle will be so much fun. They are breaking the law. No matter how they twist it in their own minds they are still breaking the law.

And yes. They will be paying our Attorney fees. We are anxiously awaiting to see how they plan to handle us.

That should prove quite interesting. Considering we will WIN. :)

Obviously we do not plan to roll over and play dead on this :)

TLW...ROAR (Giddy Up)

Will you be looking for damages...because of what can OR would happen to your business?

That might be kinda nice, hmm?

Bryant,

I know I am late to the party and I am not a realtor, but this sucks.

Even though I am not a realtor, I knew that range pricing was a great thing and a benefit to all. I wish you the best of luck and hope you succeed! Keep me (all of us) posted please.

Always strong...now all ya' need is a white hat...I'll be waiting to hear what happens

Alex...Don't misunderstand us. We could care less about the money or damages.

It's the principle with us. We would like them to pay our Attorney fees but no we will not go after damages.

We would be happy just to see the lawyer paid by them it will server a much greater purpose when we leave it at that.

The courts have another of that crap. :)

TLW...ROAR!

DEC

2006

In Las Vegas we have the same rule - the high price must be entered in the 'List Price' field. Some agents here use a 'mock auction' with a lower list price and a remark that says "Sellers will look at all offers on (date)"

Besides Florida, the only area I've seen range pricing used is San Diego where I believe about half of their listings are range priced. One question: When other web sites (Realtor.com, Yahoo! Real Estate, etc) show your listings does it include the Range Price remark? Or is that only visible to other agents within your MLS?

Not only will you have plenty to blog about...the free publicity will be wonderful for business. Wishing you a huge victory!

Keep us posted,please.

http://www.homerome.com/

Baltimore,Md

Range pricing being disallowed? I really didn't understand their reasoning.

BB,

I can hear the thunder of a mighty horse in the distance, Hi-ho Silver! Oops Sherman didn't ride Old Silver, it must be Broker Bryant on the way to save the day. Let me know if I can muster up my Calvary Regiment (my perspective as a consumer/homebuyer)! Good Luck.

Range pricing is the norm in San Diego.

Good morning thanks for all the great comments and support. I don't believe any of this will require going to court. I have already placed a couple of calls to friends in high places with FAR and the MLS. There are also several very large companies that also utilise RPing and we will be connecting with them over the next week or so as well. Right now I am doing my homework researching NAR MLS policy, Sherman-Clayton and Florida law. It's fun!!

John, I am not 100% sure if Realtor.com and others display the range pricing properly. If they display the first line of the remarks section then they do. Frankly I could care less. Realtor.com IMO is a joke. But that's food for another post:)

Linda had mentioned this all being good blog material for the next year. Funny when I first read the rule change that was the very first thing I thought of! I guess AR has taken over my life.

Also, I want to mention, I have already come up with several techniques on pricing that I can use that will circumvent this new ruling if necessary. It would take a lot more than a simple rule change to affect our business. I won't lose any sleep over it. Who knows? Maybe my next pricing strategy will be better.:)

Been doing range pricing for 12 years??? 12 years ago was about when it was introduced in my market area in MD / VA. Never worked.

I've always considered a list price to be like the menu at Club 21 in NY - - MERELY A SUGGESTION. In fact, I'd consider a home for sale listing with "range pricing" to be the "suggested range". With the exception of hard priced new construction, and I've never seen any, all pricing is in a the range of the sublime to the rediculous.

But, there's no place in our MLS for range pricing.

Lenn

Good luck in battle BB and hope your back feels better.

Here in SE GA... this MLS has a problem with ranging... they can't figure out how to design an inclusive form.... Go figure... Rocket scientists they are not... nor knowledgeable about alternative marketing tools...

BB - Unless your Seller is obligated to accept an offer at List Price - why couldn't you just list the property at what would have been the lower price in "range pricing", and negotiate on offers that come in?

I hear you Bryant and I do agree with your wife too. Some of us need to focus on ourselves and not so much on what others are doing. She's right, if they have an issue with why their properties are not selling, they are more than welcome to do what you all are doing rather than complaining about it.

On a different note - it sounds like it's time for a thorough house cleaning at this MLS as they appear to believe they are the "ultimate authority" and are not accountable to their membership.

BB and TLW - Go gettem! I think they are in for a big surprise! Let us know how things go - I know you will! :-)

I think I was on another planet yesterday; how did I miss this?

MDF and BB, you may say 'this should be fun' but in reality I can imagine how you really feel; it is an intrusion into your right to do business and I don't see how any of it can be against the law. No matter where else they do it or not, I think it really does sound like a 'restraint of trade' issue.

Hope you are right, that a legal trip will not be necessary. I am behind you. This is so typically narrow minded, horse blinder stuff. I hate when people try to set up rules when none are needed. Bah humbug! xxx

The Lovely Wife Here...TLW. :)

Folks thank you for all your support. Thank you Mary. Everything will be fine. :)

Margaret it was very nice talking to you today. It's good to know other successful Realtors run into these problems.

We appreciate you writing about this. We really do. :)

The Marriot's you guys are too much. :)

Tony I agree with you. My opinion is that the MLS has become a joke. It was not always like that.

There was a time when they actually cared about all of us. Times have changed and unfortunately the almighty dollar now rules the MLS. ROAR!

It really is time for us as a group of Professionals to come together and revolt. Charge! :) Giddy Up.

Carole it will be FUN. I promise you that. We are much older and wiser since the last time we won this battle. We will take Sherman and ride him all the way to the top.

As far as this being an instrusion, well we are pretty used to that. :) Our competitors don't like the fact that we refuse to conform to their way of doing things. My response to this has always been: "Too bad. Sue Me. And good luck with that. NEXT". :)

TLW "The Lovely Wife"...What Can I Say? I Have An Attitude About This...ROAR!

Very informative post. We do not really use Ranging in our market here, but it seems like it has been very successful for you. Good luck!

o.k. so paint me dumb, no reflection on my hair coloring.

Please explain to me Range Pricing. I'm new enough that I haven't seen it until recently. I have been in the business for 4 years so that's not very long. I would appreciate your responce if you have the time.

Roberta Lee PhD, Realtor, CNP

Roberta, here are some links for you. Here and here. These should help you.

Bryant & TLW, it looks like you two saddling up to kick some donkey, or is that.....talk to some donkeys.

Bryant just make sure that you keep TLW away form the gun cabinet.

Thanks so very much. These will help me. You're great!

Have a wonderful day. :)

Roberta Lee

Thanks so very much this will help a lot. Have a wonderful day. :)

Roberta

BB, I'm so into range pricing now, as probably its sole Chicago area practitioner, that I have even enhanced my technique to combine bracketing and range pricing in one Enoch-take-all strategy. I would get your attorney to get in touch with FREC (and NAR?) and mobilize them. I'd make sure they point out how under fire MLSes are already right now for anticompetitive behavior from the internet services/FSBOs, etc. May justice prevail, for sellers and the savvy agents of the world!

BB it will be a tough battle... I wish you the best of luck in getting your way. Keep us posted as things move along.

DEC

2006

Hi Gabriel, Have you started using Range Pricing? I don't know what these MLSs think they are doing. We just need them to distribute info not tell us how to do our jobs. It really is ridiculous.

I have started using range pricing BB, just did it yesterday. I love the concept. Even though I'm broker licensed, I have not gone the self-sponsor route, so I have a sponsoring broker I bounced it off of first, just to be sure, and he said he didn't see a problem with it here, knew that it was common in California and elsewhere, and thought it was a great idea. He liked the bracketing thing as well and so I jumped right on in. Only time will tell how effective it is here - it takes some familiarity on the agent side to "get" how it works, and yet if the entire market converts (fat chance with a market the size of downtown Chicago) it negates the rationale. It's funny how long you've done that and with such great success, in a much smaller market, and yet you haven't had everyone else in the market copy you?!

Gabriel, I did some research this morning. In our MLS there are currently 56,820 active residential listings with 1,290 that are Range Priced. So I'm not the only one but only 2% are RP. BUT the good thing is they are listed with Coldwell Banker, Re-Max and Exit to name a few. So I do have some big boys wanting to play with me.

IMO MLS are hired to disseminate information NOT to dictate how we do our jobs and market our properties. I just don't see how they have a leg to stand on.

DEC

2006

The good thing thenis that CB, Re-Max, etc. have lots of dough and lawyers. I only hope then that they will care enough to use them (both). As for my own experience, convinced it would work I first entered a listing with range pricing three days ago, on a listing that had been listed with two other firms, never range priced, and not had a showing since August. I'm getting into the shower in a few minutes and Lord willing leaving soon thereafter for a 10:30 showing on it already this morning! May the Good Lord bless that showing and maybe I'll have a really great story for range pricing!

DEC

2006

Wait one minute here. This appears to be a total distortion of the facts. RP is not being eliminated in MFRMLS. I just read the new rule. All it requires is that the high range value be placed in the lising price field and the low range price in the lowest listing price field. What's wrong with this concept and why is the truth being so distorted? I moved here from California 2 years ago where RP started. They have the same rule there is this rule here. How MFRMLS agents have been able to get away with putting whatever value they want into the listing price field sounds ridicoulus.

Lee, I didn't say RP was being eliminated I said is was being rendered useless. The entire purpose of RP is to be able to use the LOW price as the list price. This is what causes the property to show up more often on an MLS search., By being forced to use the high price as the list price it defeats the purpose. Lee we have not been getting away with anything. The MLSs job is to disseminate information NOT tell me how to market my properties.

I am starting to see the MLS' point of view here...and I know that is going to get BB upset.....imagine you were buying a car.....and there were two cars of the same model at car lots in your area you found in google for the price of the car: NOW remember...BOTH CARS ARE IDENTICAL.....

One has a sticker on it for $23,000 at one of the lots. You see it in the picture on google.

The other car lot has a sticker for $23,000 on their car. Right there in black and white in the description of the vehicle on google.

Both came up in your search for the car...so you go to each car sales lot to look at each car.....maybe you can strike a deal and "get the car for a little less than it is posted for......", you think to yourself.

One car is offered for sale at $23,000.......

The other says "$23,000 is the LOW price being offered for the car, with $29,000 being a full price offer......"

It kinda makes you scratch your head................ which car would you make an offer for? I would make an offer for the one I thought I could get for a little less money. If $23,000 is the LEAST the car lot wants for the car, doesn't it make sense to go and make an offer for the OTHER car since it looks like it might be able to be negotiated lower?

That is why I think the MLS wants the high price in the range instead of the low price......it favors the buyer.....the other way favors the seller...... and MIGHT be construde as deceptive just on the face of it......remember I said it MIGHT be looked at that way...so I think that is why they want to set the rule like that, BB.......

And I know you might not like that....but it is just a look at the rational for what they MIGHT be thinking, Bryant...... IMHO

I am just trying to look at all sides of this......

Alex...Speaking of cars perhaps you should read this post before BB gets back on his computer.

THE PROOF IS IN THE PUDDIN RANGE PRICING PART 1,275 Written by Broker Bryant. The King of Range Pricing...

It's an excellent wrap up of the Range Pricing misunderstandings. :)

TLW "The Lovely Wife"...Giddy Up...ROAR!

I understand where you are coming from, TLW ...... and you really like your trips to the mall understandably....and I DID read the explanation on range pricing when it came out by BB......

BUT I still see the MLS' point of view from the buyers perspective....... why pay more for a similar house when you can buy another house priced the same AND maybe negotiate a LOWER price...having the low price in the range as a starting point leaves NO ROOM for the buyer to negotiate.....

I guess as a sellers agent this is good for you and the seller.... but I am thinking of the buyer......

Maybe a MIDPOINT should be the posted MLS price...so BOTH buyer and seller will be happy......hmmmm?

Alex, The only problem with your analysis is that in a RP scenario the other car would not be priced at $23,000, it would be lower due to the fact that the Range priced car would have the acceptable price in the middle. An example: If you could indeed buy the $23,000 car at $20,000 because that is the true market value. Then the RP property, if priced correctly, would be from $15,000 to $25,000 trying to sell at $20,000. Which one would peak your interest now? And why would I be thinking of the buyer? I'm a sellers "agent". And that my friend is the issue. Why should the MLS favor the buyer? The reason Realtors don't like RP is because it forces the buyer to play their card first. They don't like it, so they change the rule. They are effectively limiting my seller on how they can price their home. That is called price fixing and it's illegal.

AND they are interfering with my business practice even though it is 100% legal and ethical. And that is also a vio0lation of the Sherman act and the Rules and Regs of the MFRMLS.

BB, I called NAR today and was told that there is a NAR MLS rule that requires the listing price to be the full gross price even if you're using RP. They said that the MFRMLS was previously in violation of NAR's policy and that their new rule now makes them okay with NAR. I asked about your claims of price fixing, Sherman Act, etc. They told me that this was all decided several years ago and it involved NAR's attorneys. They advised that this rule is totally within the law and that many brokers have been abusing the RP concept for years. They said this is the rule for all MLS systems and they must adopt it. I like Alex believe that the other way could easily be seen as unethical and deceptive to the buyers. Even though you are a buyer's agent you must still treat all parties fairly and cannot act deceptively. You may understand what you are trying to do in listing the property that way but you must put yourself in the shoes of the buyer who is probably does not have real estate license.

Lee, I do understand NAR position on this. BUT IMO they are wrong. This is really what the NAR MLS policy on list price is.

The full gross listing price stated in each listing agreement will be published in MLS compilations of current listings except where a property is subject to auction and no listed price is specified in the agreement. (Adopted 11/04) M

As you can see it's quite a bit different from what you stated. When taking a listing using RP the full gross list price is stated in the remarks section. So really it doesn't state where the list price needs to be. But anyway, it will be interesting to see how it unfolds. But you know that's the good thing about law, depends on who you talk to. Of course NAR attorneys are going to agree with NAR. That does not make them right. And I may just as well be wrong. Time will tell. Should be interesting though.

BB, I spent the last 3 hours looking up the rule and you forgot to add the title to the desciption you provided: "LISTING PRICE". Their rule defines what is supposed to be in the listing price field. What you have been doing does not meet this definition. I read your blogs and do very much appreciate your knowledge and experience - you are the best and by far the most interesting. However this seems to be a reasonable rule from NAR. It will be interesting to see how it works out.

Lee I really appreciate you taking the time to try and understand my position on this. The issue I have is that NAR is assuming that the list price per my agreement with the Seller is the high price. This is not the case. My listing agreements state that the LOW price is the LIST price. Therefore according to their own rule this is the price that should be used in the List price field. Also, up until about 2 weeks ago when they implemented the new rule, the old rule was as follows:

PARAPHRASE: Range Pricing is when a Seller offers his property for sale within a range from x to z. The LIST price is any figure within this range at the listing brokers sole discretion.

AND as per the FAR and MFRMLS attorneys this is the phrasing that had to be in the remarks section: This property is Range Priced. The seller will consider all offers between X and Z with Z being a full price offer.

This was their rule not mine. So when NAR states that brokers have been abusing the RP concept for years, they are flat out wrong. I ranged priced properties EXACTLY the way they said it was to be done. Now that they have flip flopped on their OWN ruling after 10 years, they have effectively restricted the way that I do business. Range pricing may be an innovative and aggressive business practice but it is according to Florida Real Estate law 100% legal and according to our COE 100% ethical as it is in the best interest of the consumer.

The following little ditties are straight from the NAR MLS policies manual relating to Anti Trust Laws:

4. Modify, or attempt to modify, the terms of any listing agreement; this does not prohibit administrative corrections of property information necessary to ensure accuracy or consistency in MLS compilations.

5. Refuse to include any listing in an MLS compilation solely on the basis of the listed price.

AND this is also from their policy manual: Section 22. These rules are not intended to prohibit ethical, albeit aggressive or innovative business practices, and do not prohibit disagreements with other Participants involving commission, fees, compensation, or other forms of payment or expenses

So in my opinion, whether I'm wrong or right, I feel I have enough of a case to not just slip away quietly and bow down to the powers that be.

Giddy Up...TLW...ROAR!

The way I understood it is that the LOW price in the range was being put in the List Price area on the MLS....now I am seeing that you are saying you put the list price in the middle of the range...so....I am curious as to how this works out in the wash, BB.

If in fact putting the list price as the MIDDLE of the range.....THEN it is not unfair to the buyer......it DOES give them negotiating room......

We will see......we will see......

:-D

============================================

Uh...BB...........

I got curious and took a look in the MLS to look at your properties listed --- all 15 of them....and your range pricing is not the way you have stated to me in the comments here.... your LOW price in the range pricing is the Listed Price and everything points the buyer to not be able to negotiate lower....... you stated that the price in the listed price is in the middle of your range pricing model...and that is not how you have it in the MLS..... Your listed price on the MLS is the bottom end of the range and that leaves no room to negotiate for the buyer.....

I still stand by my previous comment..... the listed price should be in the middle of the range price..... not at the bottom....

I understand you are working for the seller, BB...but to me it just does not make negotiating good for BOTH parties...why have it ranged priced at all?

All the buyer sees is a home that either is priced at where comparables are in that price range OR they have to pay MORE for the house...instead of looking for the same type of home at a listed price the same as the ranged priced house that they can negotiate lower to save money.

If you just price it at the TOP of the value scale, then the seller and buyer can negotiate a price that is acceptable to BOTH parties...and the seller has saved some money...and the buyer gets the money coming to him/her.That is what i do when I list a home and I do well with that model of pricing.....

My listings get sold for about 95-100% of the Listing Price..... just as nice a price as a range priced home...actually better I think.....since the top of the range in most of the range priced homes would prob NOT appraise at that price...and my home for sale in the MLS would appraise at the full asking price.

DEC

2006

Alex Alex Alex, I think you are misreading something. I use the low price as the listing price always. The sellers target price which is also market value is in the middle, always. RP is not about negotiating it is about exposure. It really is very very simple. Because I am able to use a lower price as the list the property shows up more often on a Realtor search. That's it. Nothing more nothing less. The buyer can offer whatever they want. Then as is any deal the buyer and the seller can negotiate a sales price. Assuming the property is priced right the sales price will normally end up in the middle. But it could be more it could be less. RP does not in any way restrict the buyer from making an offer outside the Range.

Alex I have sold hundreds and hundreds of homes this way. Sellers love it and buyers always get it. It's the Realtors and Realtors only that don't get it. You guys try to make it much more complicated than it is. Some of your statements just don't make any sense at all. The buyer and seller will ALWAYS negotiate a price that is acceptable to both. That's the whole point of successful negotiations. BUT again RP has nothing to do with negotiations, it's all about exposure. Is it so difficult for Realtors to understand that LIST price has nothing to so with SALES price? Why is it perceived that the buyer has the right to negotiate downward, from the list price but the seller does not have the right to negotiate upward, from the list price? Doesn't sound fair to me.

But truly I think I have written enough about RP on AR that at least it can be understood. No one has to agree with it. It really doesn't matter to me. My listings will continue to sell in record time for top dollar and that is really all that matters to me. Closed minds will be closed minds. Personally, I prefer other Realtors don't get it or use it.

Darlin' (Broker Bryant) That Sir was a wonderful response and quite the wrap up of RP. Thank you. Oh! have I mentioned to you lately how smart I think you are? :) TLW...ROAR!

My earlier post:

Hello, I am not a real estate agent but after reading about your range pricing I wanted to comment. I use the MLS in my area to search for a new home so I may be able to offer a view from the other side.

The whole range price concept is very simple. You use the range so that the low end price will show up in the MLS searches as the list price, thereby giving you more exposure for a certain type of house at a lower price point. I have a problem with this, it is a deliberate DECEPTION. You may say that because of your disclaimer that it makes it all well and good, and I admit that when the disclaimor is read it does clear it up SOMEWHAT, but at that point you have already gained the benefit from your deception (the benefit being that your phony list price has put your house on more buyer agents MLS search lists for their clients).

Here is the other thing. Say I like one of the homes with your range pricing and I make an offer for the low price. You of course will not accept that offer, ok, say it happens again and again. The problem is, that offer will never be accepted. So, in fact, that low price range is a LIE. Plain and simple.

Now, with the disclaimer, and the fact that the seller reserves the right to accept or deny any offer, what you are doing is legal. Ok, but I ask you, just because it is legal does that make it ETHICAL? I don't think so.

It seems some of the agents are having trouble understanding your range pricing. Maybe I can explain it a little better for them, here goes:

Take your listing and submit it in the MLS with a listing price that is BELOW whatever the market is so that it will seem like a deal and be included in more search results (more search results, more traffic). Then throw a disclaimer in there on the actual listing stating what the real listing price is.

One last thing, have you thought about what would happen if all the real estate agents started using your range pricing? The integrity of the MLS would be destroyed. Whose to say that agents wouldn't start increasing the range in their range pricing so that they could beat eachother in the lists. Just because you limit your range to 5 or 10% either way doesn't make it right. Maybe somebody will come along and range it 20 or 30%. Search results would be become useless, see the problem here??"

Looks like I was right, there really is no choice but to make this rule change, sorry

BB I understand what you are saying, BUT it LOOKS like the bottom price in your range is the LEAST the seller will take..... You said in your response to me that the house usually sells for MORE than the least price stated in your range...so they (buyers) are taking the lowest price as a basement from which to work from....

Did you read the message from Ryan above me????

Just remember...he IS NOT an agent...and read again what he says......

Alex, looks can be deceiving. Over 400 closings and not one single complaint from a Buyer, Seller or Realtor about Range Pricing. That really is all that matters. If a Realtor pulls up the listing and does not want to deal with RPing, then simply don't show it. They are always many more in line waiting to show it and sell it.

Ryan actually understands RPing perfectly. He doesn't like it but at least he understands how it works and the purpose for using it. The only part he is wrong about is thinking it is DECEPTIVE and unethical. But he is entitled to his opinion, as are you.

So in summary: It's legal, it's ethical, it's NOT deceptive, it works, sellers love it, most buyers understand it, my peers are confused and NAR is wrong. But time will tell. IMHO

Darlin' (Broker Bryant) your HUMBLE is making me laugh. Hubba! Bubba! NEXT. :) TLW...ROAR!

We will see what we will see.....

As I stated before I do understand RPing.......

BUT...we will see.......

BB, I do have a high degree of respect for you. So please do not take my comments personally or an attack on your opinion. I respect you too much. However just as much as I respect you I equally believe you are 110% incorrect and that your conduct may cross the border of deception. You may have closed 400+ homes but it only takes 1 complaint to the state to lose our license. You said "It's legal, it's ethical, it's NOT deceptive, it works, sellers love it, most buyers understand it, my peers are confused and NAR is wrong." That's only your opinion and you are entitled to it. We are just telling you that others see your use of RP as a violation of MLS policy and possibly considerd deceptive. Also you stated that in one of your last posts the MFRMLS former policy and attributed it to being an NAR policy "PARAPHRASE: Range Pricing is when a Seller offers his property for sale within a range from x to z. The LIST price is any figure within this range at the listing brokers sole discretion. "

Hi Lee, I justed posted another post relating to this. Please read the links at the bottom that will take you to some other articles about Range Pricing. The one I found interesting was the one mentioning that 58%(MLS) of the properties in San Diego are Range Priced. The paraphrasing was actually done by FAR and MFRMLS attorneys. I do stand corrected on that.

Lee, this is definitely my opinion. I always have and always will abide by the rules that govern Realtors and our MLS. On this one issue I disagree and I disagree strongly. I may or may not fight it, I haven't decided yet. Just remember NAR and MFRMLS are associations, they pass policy, not law. Policies can be debated and challenged. That's what makes our association so strong. RP does not harm the public in any way. If Realtors understood it and knew how to explain it, to their buyers, it would not even be an issue. Buyers get it immediately when it is presented properly. In order to deceive someone you must hide something from them. RP is 100% disclosed prior to anyone looking at a property. But I do appreciate your opinion.

BTW are you a Realtor? You should join AR if you haven't already. It really is a great place for discussion.

Oops, Lee, I forgot to add, I really have no problem using the high price as the list price if the MLS changes the way we are able to search for properties. Give us the capability to search by low price as well.

I WAS GOING TO CORRECT MY ABOVE COMMENT BUT DECIDED TO ADD THIS INSTEAD.

Lee, I want to edit my paraphrase since I have now found the exact wording. This was all put together by NAR and MFRMLS attorneys in 1996 and with guidance from several western MLSs and The California Assoc. of Realtors. This verbiage was a compilation of their joint efforts:

With Range Pricing, the seller agrees with the listing broker to consider offers within a certain price range and allows the property to be marketed using that range. However, since the MLS requires a specific listing price to be entered, it is in the listing broker's sole and absolute discretion to choose the price to be entered as the "list price"

And BB, it is in the sellers best interest to put the list price is as low as possible so the home gets maximum exposure!!!

Did we realtors get compared to Car Salesmen in an earlier comment??? I think so...just hope it was a New Car Salesman... they deal in MSRP but advertise on TV at the lowest end of the leasing market!!

Leasing and buying are two totally different animals...a NEW car looses anywhere from 10- 60% of it's value after you cross the line from the car lot to the open road.....

A lease is different... you DO NOT own the car......you are paying for the privilege of driving it.

BB, no one is arguing as RP. There just needs to be a way for it to be understandable to the general public and not deceptive. Alex gave the very best argument. If everybody did what you did then you would not have any advantage in this regard.

DEC

2006

Alex. Please take a moment to*** READ THIS POST***It is in your own best interest to do so. TLW...ROAR!

Lee, Now that is a statement I can AGREE with. All that requires is understanding from Realtors and the ability to relate it to the buyers. I know from experience Buyers get it real quick. The easiest way is just tell them to make an offer. It doesn't matter if the offer is within the range or not and the seller may very well acept an offer below the bottom figure. Make an offer and lets negotiate. The ADVANTAGE of RPing to the buyer is that they may have been able to see and buy a property that they would not have been exposed to if it was not RP. And that's the beauty of it.

TLW I already know about BBs integrity, silly.......

And I understand you are there in his corner fighting for him and with him...please take a look at your hubbys response to Lee.....

I am where Lee is...... we will see what the MLS and NAR say....ok...lets just leave it at that..... I really don't want to start a fight with people I respect.....

I realize that the listing price is at the sole discretion of the seller and listing agent....BUT I would feel better if the listed price were in the middle of the range... not the bottom... it makes people think the bottom is the least the seller will accept......

;-D

Hey Alex, I think she is just letting you know I had posted another related post. We're to old to fight:) I hope things are going well with you.

Have I ever told you that you remind me of Captian Kangaroo, BB You have his "look".......

So simple, gentle and so wise looking...... BTW I LOVED Mr. Trolley and his caboose for a head... it was so funny to watch.... Mr Greenjeans was nice, BUT I felt a little to effeminate for my taste..... I kinda had to turn my head away when he talked..... :P Something about him just turned me off....

I just hope they (NAR, MLS, and all the agents affected by this) come up with a solution everyone can live with.....

;-D

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