Manhattan real estate has always been different. Over the years REALTOR® friends and colleagues from other parts of the country have been very sympathetic toward how we do business in Manhattan. They would say: "You have it so hard", "how can you make a living? " No dominant MLS, coops, coop boards, board interviews, buyer's financial statements, building financials, only attorney's can write contracts, accepted offers that don't mean anything, How do you do it"?

MANAR the Manhattan MLS is only about 5 years old and has about 15% of the market. The dominant board REBNY is a real estate board. They claim they are not an MLS because there is no central database. Broker members cooperate but each have their own electronic system to send and receive listing data. REBNY members are not only brokers but builders and management companies. Management companies represent coop boards. There is a bill in the city council pending that will require coops to put in writing why they rejected a buyer. Most brokers are for this bill REBNY is against it because they also in directly represent coop boards. I know that the justice department has investigated REBNY. REBNY recently announced a web portal for the public with all it's members exclusive listings.

I thought we would catch up and do business like the rest of the country. I thought the big Manhattan companies would eventually join the MLS but what is happening with MLS and the justice department throughout the country It doesn't seem likely. It seems like what is happening with MLS throughout the country is forcing more markets to become like Manhattan. Many of the arguments about VOWS and opting out is similar to the politics that has been going on in Manhattan real estate for many years. The big firms have always been very proprietary regarding their listings.

The changing of MLS throughout the country won't affect listing agents but I think it makes it harder for buyers agents because it makes it easier for buyers to go directly to listing agents. However, I don't see any of this changing the role of a good agent. 2/3 of my business comes from the buy side.

Selling real estate is an art not a science. There is no software, website or tool that comes with emotion. Selling and buying real estate is emotional not logical. Data isn't looked at objectively but emotionally. There certainly is enough data about real estate but personal attachment and emotion get in the way.

When I first started in real estate I worked for a boutique broker that had a very good reputation primarily in one neighborhood. Appraisers would all call my broker for comps. We primarily used comps for appraisers and not to get listings. My broker knew every apartment on the upper west side. I would mention an address and she would say "that board is tough" that building has bad finances or I converted that building". I would go with her on listing appointments. We didn't come armed with data and reports and a formal presentations. We listened we looked around we were ourselves down to earth and basically shot from the hip. She would compliment me on my pricing ability.   

Since then I've read studies, market reports each one contradicting the last one. There is much more data and information and resources available to me now. It's all available to the public too. I've had "formal" training, I take it all with a grain of salt, it really doesn't mean much. The median went up but the average went down. The average per square foot went up but the average price came down.

There is an art to selling real estate and pricing properties. I can walk into an apartment with comps in my hand, take one look around see something and throw out the comps and price it right out of thin air.

It's an art, it's a skill, it is a talent. ...But it's not out of thin air. It's from my brain and my gut. It is innate knowledge.

I was really good at The Price Is Right as a kid. Jeopardy was for my brother and sister. How about Life? Could it be experience living in Manhattan for 25 years? A consumer myself, first a renter, then a buyer, buying and selling my own home, working with buyers every day knowing what they will buy and what they will spend, knowing what I would pay for an apartment myself, knowing the inventory, knowing the history of the inventory, knowing things about the inventory that is not data. Information in my head through osmosis. Knowing what I could market it for. Knowing how I would market it. There is no magic number, at best it's an estimated guess there are too many variables.

Pricing right is very important, some say it's everything but it won't ever come from software, or data. It comes from a brain and a gut.

 

45 Comments on Selling Real Estate is an Art not a Science

Mitchell this is very thought provoking; and your market sounds like the Wild West to me here in Cleveland!

It sounds like your brain and your gut are pretty gifted! I do know what you mean about walking into a place and seeing something (either good or bad) that throws the comps out the window.

What do you mean you can't write contracts? I am very intrigued and had no idea there was no MLS. Great post! I'm going to have to mull this over a bit and come back tomorrow too. I was never any good at the Price Is Right! But Family Feud..... so I have the gut down but not the brain

12/08/2006 11:42 PM by Carole Cohen Realtor®, ePRO (Howard Hanna Cleveland City Office)


Carole,

In NY only attorneys can write contracts. In upstate NY Realtors can write contracts that have been approved by the NY bar association but not down state in NYC.

Buyer and seller must have an attorney. The seller's attorney writes the contract and sends it to buyers attorney. It is not fully executed until both buyer and seller sign.

Many buyers lose properties between the accepted offer and signed contract. The seller can shop the offer and get a higher offer. Listing agents keep showing for backups until a contract is signed. Seller and buyer have no legal obligation toward each other until a contract is executed.

12/09/2006 09:03 AM by Mitchell Hall, Associate Broker, New York, NY (Coldwell Banker Previews International)


I think I will stay in Arizona - sounds way too complicated in New York - more time on legalese than on real estate!

12/09/2006 09:54 AM by Tony Marriott, Associate Broker, CRP, CLHMS, CRB, CRS ~~ Phoenix Arizona (Keller Williams Realty Professional Partners)


I had read this!!!  why didn't I comment?  Thanks for the link in the comments on MF's blog about the Big Z...  

You do have a very unique area... Until about 2 years ago, meeting NYC's Sandy Mattingly with your company (I met Sandy virtually on another RE forum), I had no idea of how different it is.   Of course real estate is local, but NYC is so different.  

12/09/2006 11:37 AM by Maureen McCabe - Central Ohio real estate (Real Living HER)


Tony,

It's a great market for lawyers. They get paid no matter what happens to the deal.

12/09/2006 11:45 AM by Mitchell Hall, Associate Broker, New York, NY (Coldwell Banker Previews International)


Maureen, Of all the bloggers and web savvy agents in NYC most are from my company. We are very into the internet. I recently came across Sandy's blog it's very good. Sandy is in our midtown office.

12/09/2006 11:50 AM by Mitchell Hall, Associate Broker, New York, NY (Coldwell Banker Previews International)


Mitchell,

I appreciate the fact that you are very knowledgeable about Manhattan property values, but couldn't a Seller hire a knowledgeable appraiser and obtain the market value of their property for about $500, then list the property on Zillow for free? 

Because there is not a strong MLS in Manhattan, aren't you more vulnerable to a Zillow, which can fill the vacuum and serve as the de facto MLS?

I am very interested in your supposition that "The changing of MLS throughout the country won't affect listing agents but I think it makes it harder for buyers agents because it makes it easier for buyers to go directly to listing agents."

You may very well be correct.  As an exclusive buyer agent, one who does not accept listings, I hope you are dead wrong.  My prediction is that an alternative to the MLS, such as Zillow, will render listing agents nugatory.  Sellers will have good tools available to them (getting better every day) to value their property, and will not necessarily need a Realtor to list their home for sale.  Buyers, on the other hand, may need help more than sellers.  I can't imagine relocation buyers setting up ten different showings with ten different sellers in unfamiliar territory.  The parties will need someone to coordinate the transaction.  Real estate attorneys, possibly? 

It will certainly be interesting to see how this shakes out.

12/09/2006 12:57 PM by Buyer's Broker of Northern Michigan, LLC


Stefan: Are there exclusive Buyers agents in NYC Stefan?  I remember  when Pam needed help she referred somthing to Sandy M. w/ Mitchell's company and I believe that was back in her EBA days. Maybe not.  Wouldn't Pam's market be close to an NYC kind of market?  whatever Pam's market is...   NJ, NYC suburbs? Pam is an Active Rain member... Sandy should be but won't join. 

12/09/2006 01:13 PM by Maureen McCabe - Central Ohio real estate (Real Living HER)


Stefan,  In Manhattan, and maybe more so now than ever buyers come direct to listing agents. I would say 50% come to open houses that don't have agents. Dual agency has never been a big issue because it only has to be signed on 1-4 family houses. In apartments it's agent and sub agent with fiduciary to the client, seller. Buyer is customer. Most agents in Manhattan don't even know what buyers agency is. We do have it. I have an exclusive buyers agreement and I think they are going to become more prevalent.

I think it will be harder for some buyers agents because the buyers can go direct. There will always be those who go on their own but there are many who want and agent. Having listings attracts buyers to you. Most all my buyers are now coming from the internet. They also come from listings. I am reaching them before they just walk into another broker's open house and make an offer. 1 month 3 months 6 months before they are ready to buy. Many are from out of town. Exactly for the reason you mention. As long as the seller is still paying the commission most buyers will prefer to have professional help.

As far as sellers a  $500 appraisal and a magic number won't cut it in Manhattan. There is so much involved in selling a home. Most of my clients and people I know don't want to sell their own home even if they could. They all know what it's worth. I've talked to many people about this. Most want a broker to handle it. We have always had companies trying to fill the vacuum but they just become proprietary to the firm that uses them. The New York Times fills the vacuum. In essence they have been the MLS. It might help FSBOS particularly the low end they will always be around. It's a very complex process in Manhattan selling and marketing a home and buying one.

12/09/2006 01:39 PM by Mitchell Hall, Associate Broker, New York, NY (Coldwell Banker Previews International)


Hi Mitchell; so what you are saying, is that all these complexities that make me sit here in wide-eyed wonderment are just the complexities that give you a leg up on your niche market. You DO know what needs to be done and NYkers are too savvy to not realize that they need a professional. So in the long run, I vote on the side of all those nuances being a good thing for your business. Am I right?

12/09/2006 02:38 PM by Carole Cohen Realtor®, ePRO (Howard Hanna Cleveland City Office)


And I forgot my last (well for now!) comment: the company which we are not to name of course, is  science not brain and gut.

12/09/2006 02:47 PM by Carole Cohen Realtor®, ePRO (Howard Hanna Cleveland City Office)


Exactly Carole that is the point I am trying to convey.

Carole they pay to have their dogs walked you think they want the neighbors to see they are trying to sell themselves. LOL

bells and whistles are fun toys to play with I have them on my company web page too.

12/09/2006 03:53 PM by Mitchell Hall, Associate Broker, New York, NY (Coldwell Banker Previews International)


If they can afford $38 dog collars, and weekly dog walkers, they can afford you, even though your services are priceless : - )

12/09/2006 04:08 PM by Carole Cohen Realtor®, ePRO (Howard Hanna Cleveland City Office)


Thank You.

I'm not even in the ultra luxury market. I'm primarily in the middle. Many sellers need closing costs including broker fee to lower the basis and offset capital gain tax

12/09/2006 04:15 PM by Mitchell Hall, Associate Broker, New York, NY (Coldwell Banker Previews International)


'Mitchell'

As you probably already know I am fascinated by The Big Apple Real Estate Market.

I hang with Christine Forgione. Need I say more? :)

I still have a hard time trying to imagine a Lawyer at every closing. That's wild.

We could re-name NY and call it The Wild Wild Big Apple. :)

TLW "The Lovely Wife"...Sorry My Creative Side Is Shining Through This Evening...ROAR!

12/09/2006 08:19 PM by "The Lovely Wife"...Broker Bryant's Wife... (Co-Owner Tutas Towne Realty, Inc.)


TLW "The Lovely Wife"

Can you imagine at least 2 or 3 lawyers usually... can be 4 even 5 or 6. Buyer's, seller's, bank attorney, another bank attorney if the seller still has a mortgage another one is possible if they have a home equity loan, the coop or condo lawyer. There is never room for me to sit.  LOL

Christine is a real New Yorker.

12/09/2006 08:39 PM by Mitchell Hall, Associate Broker, New York, NY (Coldwell Banker Previews International)


"Mitchell"...In all honesty, I just can't even begin to get my head around that. Waaaay too many Lawyers. My Lawyer would not like me saying that. He probably will see this comment. LOL. (Hi Hank. Sorry.) So, Mitchell do you bring your own chair? :) I mean really I would bring a lawn chair with me. LOL. That idea has an element of suprise in it. LOL...Yah. Christine's a Big Apple Gal. I love that about her. You never have to wonder what's she's thinking she'll TELL YOU. LOL...TLW...ROAR!  

12/09/2006 08:52 PM by "The Lovely Wife"...Broker Bryant's Wife... (Co-Owner Tutas Towne Realty, Inc.)


TLW "The Lovely Wife"

Some times they call and tell me to come late because there is no room. I get paid at the very end after all the checks are passed around and everything is signed.

I'd never get passed the security in a law office with a lawn chair. LOL

12/09/2006 09:12 PM by Mitchell Hall, Associate Broker, New York, NY (Coldwell Banker Previews International)


"Mitchell"...Do you ever feel awkard not being around when the Lawyers are with customer? AS far as that chairs goes. I bet I could talk them into it. I mean really a Lady should have a seat. LOL..TLW...ROAR!

12/09/2006 09:26 PM by "The Lovely Wife"...Broker Bryant's Wife... (Co-Owner Tutas Towne Realty, Inc.)


TLW "The Lovely Wife"

I had a lawyer recently that kept dropping the ball. She would rattle off her resume every time we spoke how many building and block associations she represented but was always was too busy for this deal.

I told my customer how to answer questions at the board interview not to go into details about her renovation plans.

The lawyer said: "It is perfectly fine to discuss renovations at a board interview" My customer was rejected lawyer got paid.

The security guard would bring you a special chair. LOL

12/09/2006 10:13 PM by Mitchell Hall, Associate Broker, New York, NY (Coldwell Banker Previews International)


Mitchell, I kind of keep up with articles about Barbara Corcoran; she fascinates me. I remember her trying to start up the MLS. About a year ago I was really down in the dumps and I picked up her book again (my Manager Mark had given it to me) and it was inspiring.  I'm smiling now at her sitting in a room with The Donald who is trying to convince her he is really the top seller in NYC. Good stuff! I had read your REBNY post before but it was nice to revisit it.

LOL Picturing TLW in a lawn chair with sun glasses at a closing in NYC.  That makes me smile too : - )

12/09/2006 11:33 PM by Carole Cohen Realtor®, ePRO (Howard Hanna Cleveland City Office)


 Carole, You know your NY real estate. She tried to start an MLS several years ago there was a lot of politics involved. I took a continuing ed course with her. It was after 9/11 that November so everyone is real estate was pretty gloomy still.

I think her book is called Use what you have.  I don't know if I read it the whole thing or just parts of it. I don't know if she writes about this but she has never sold 1 apartment. She is the queen of marketing other brokers at corcoran did the actual selling. Her face was all over NY. i think she has a blog.

12/10/2006 12:06 AM by Mitchell Hall, Associate Broker, New York, NY (Coldwell Banker Previews International)


You are so right, Mitchell, that is the name of the book (I must need to go to sleep my brain could not remember that). In the book she makes it pretty clear that she is a marketer and not a sales person (not a seller of homes, anyway!)  I am wondering what it was like to be in a class with her. I never thought to look for the blog but I will tomorrow now. Of COURSE it makes sense that she has one lol. Well so do you so there! lol 

12/10/2006 12:46 AM by Carole Cohen Realtor®, ePRO (Howard Hanna Cleveland City Office)


'Mitchell'...That's exactly what I envision. With so many Lawyers around the ball will inevitably be dropped. I also envisioned that once the ball does drop there is a whole lot of side stepping going on. I see I am right about that too. LOL. Your comment also falls into my theory that the Lawyers get the money! (Sorry Hank. I'll cut ya a check for that one. LOL.) Thanks for the chair I would need it. Why? No way in hell I would I not attend these types of closings. I would even bring a stenographer to take notes. LOL. BTW...Did you know it helps to have a conversation on a post if you remember to check the box. LOL...TLW...ROAR!

12/10/2006 06:29 AM by "The Lovely Wife"...Broker Bryant's Wife... (Co-Owner Tutas Towne Realty, Inc.)


TLW "the Lovely Wife"

I have plenty of stories. LOL . I pick up documents in person myself to save my customers $100  for a 38cent stamp

I just keep picturing you at the closing on a lounge chair with your sun glasses on.

Thanks for the tip, i forgot to check the new comments box

12/10/2006 07:50 AM by Mitchell Hall, Associate Broker, New York, NY (Coldwell Banker Previews International)


'Mitchell'

That word picture of me in a lounge chair is pretty funny. :)

I hope that you will post more of your stories. Send me a contact when you do.

As you can see I love hearing about The Realtors (Brokers) vs The Lawyers.

(Sorry Hank I'll cut you another check for that) LOL...

Glad to see I am not the only one who forgot to check the box. :)

TLW "The Lovely Wife"...Now I Owe My Lawyer Money For Mouthing Off. LOL...TLW...ROAR!

12/10/2006 08:10 AM by "The Lovely Wife"...Broker Bryant's Wife... (Co-Owner Tutas Towne Realty, Inc.)


TLW "The Lovely Wife"

One of my first transactions the lawyer is giving out cards at the closing telling everone she is a Realtor also and to call her when they sell. I was new but I still said Excuse Me! they're my client!

12/10/2006 08:21 AM by Mitchell Hall, Associate Broker, New York, NY (Coldwell Banker Previews International)


OMG...Multiply licensed Lawyers! Look out! You really need to post some of this stuff.

We have a Multiply license problem in Florida.

But the Lawyers stay away from Multiply. Why?

It's a conflict of interest man and they know it. (Right Hank?) :)

Why does NY allow this?

That would be a great post. If you're up to it.

Why? A lot of us don't know about this stuff. Perhaps it's time we did. :)

TLW "The Lovely Wife"...Please Post About This. I Promise To Read And Comment...ROAR!

12/10/2006 08:45 AM by "The Lovely Wife"...Broker Bryant's Wife... (Co-Owner Tutas Towne Realty, Inc.)


TLW "The Lovely Wife"...

I would have to reasearch it. I know that if you are an attorney you don't have to take the real estate 45 hours and state test. I don't know if they actually have to get a brokers license or the law degree is enough. The one I'm referring to was not only a lawyer but she actually was an agent with a competitive broker. She had two sets of cards. 

I think it is totally a conflict of interest. If they need to moonlight selling real estate I doubt they are very good lawyers. IMHO.

12/10/2006 09:07 AM by Mitchell Hall, Associate Broker, New York, NY (Coldwell Banker Previews International)


I agree with YHO. :) Research it and create a controversial post. That's my not so humble opinion. LOL. No one person can perform due diligence when they are handing out more than one biz card. That's another one of my not so humble opinions. :) There are many who disagree with this. That is what would make the topic of Multiply Licensed Lawyers a controversial post. You better get to work on it if you are going to do it. Why? All kinds of people are reading this. Someone is going to snag this idea right out from under you. :) TLW...ROAR!

12/10/2006 09:47 AM by "The Lovely Wife"...Broker Bryant's Wife... (Co-Owner Tutas Towne Realty, Inc.)


OK any one out there want to write about lawyers Go for it! No controversial posts for me. I'm looking for more business. Too many lawyers buy apartments. LOL

12/10/2006 02:19 PM by Mitchell Hall, Associate Broker, New York, NY (Coldwell Banker Previews International)


CHICKEN! Do know I am messing with you. :) I'll go dare to Christine to do it. LOL...TLW...ROAR!

12/10/2006 02:32 PM by "The Lovely Wife"...Broker Bryant's Wife... (Co-Owner Tutas Towne Realty, Inc.)


Christine yeah go for it!

You know both of us have lived in NY long enough to know that is one group you don't mess with LOL

 

12/10/2006 02:51 PM by Mitchell Hall, Associate Broker, New York, NY (Coldwell Banker Previews International)


You know what, I have thought this through. My little brainstorm will get the both off you in trouble! I don't want that. Maybe I'll do the research and blog about it myself. I don't care man. I keep my Lawyer (Hi Hank) on retainer. :) What are they going to do sue me? Good luck with that. (Open your wallet Hank) LOL...BTW, I was just looking at the comments on this post. It's official, I have Hijacked your post and brought you to the Hijack with me. We flying just over Cuba now...LOL...TLW...ROAR!

12/10/2006 03:07 PM by "The Lovely Wife"...Broker Bryant's Wife... (Co-Owner Tutas Towne Realty, Inc.)


TLW 

Good Idea!

I'll comment and make jokes.

Christine and i would be safer writing about the mafia... just kidding there is no mafia lol

I rather end up in the east river with cement shoes on than in litigation. lol

12/10/2006 03:59 PM by Mitchell Hall, Associate Broker, New York, NY (Coldwell Banker Previews International)


Okay. I'll write it. You and Christine can Hijack it. And we can all pretend there's no such thing as a Mafia or cement shoes in New York. LOL...TLW...ROAR!

12/10/2006 04:11 PM by "The Lovely Wife"...Broker Bryant's Wife... (Co-Owner Tutas Towne Realty, Inc.)


I will help out; if you guys get in trouble, you can just say the mafia is really in Cleveland, not NY.......I can take it : - )

12/10/2006 04:15 PM by Carole Cohen Realtor®, ePRO (Howard Hanna Cleveland City Office)


Mitchell,

I am late getting to this post, as I can see from the 38 comments that precede me.    Since I first met you on AR I have often wondered how your crazy market works. 

Your experience is invaluable.  With that kind of experience there is no question about the value that you bring to the table.  You will never be replaced by an algorithm!

Thanks for the good read! 

12/10/2006 10:28 PM by Maureen Francis & Dmitry Koublitsky, SKBK Sotheby's - Metro Detroit (SKBK Sotheby's International Realty)


Great post Mitchell!  I really enjoyed reading it + all the comments. 

they pay to have their dogs walked you think they want the neighbors to see they are trying to sell themselves  LOL!

The NYC market is similar to the UK.  There buyers lawyers and sellers lawyers hash out the contract.  It is possible (and became commonplace in the 80's) for sellers to accept a higher offer between acceptance of offer and signed contract.  The buyer loses inspection cost and any other associated fees (lawyers) with no recourse!  We call it gazumping.  There is also no "MLS system" in place.  Real estate is very 'local' there.....

12/12/2006 01:04 AM by Jessica Hughes (Ambiance Staging)


Gazumping, eh? I like it. I work as a buyer in New York state, in the Catskills about 2 hours NW of Mitchell in Manhattan. NY state is basically split in 2, with the counties north of me using a Realtor fill-in contract, where the parties have the opportunity for attorney review and are typically bound within 3 days. In my county, Sullivan, and all of the counties further south (including Manhattan, Westchester and Long Island), there is a 2 step process, with a non-binding purchase offer prepared by the broker followed by a contract prepared by an attorney --- the system that Mitchell discussed. Overall, the system is cumbersome, terribly inefficient and adds unnecesssary costs to a closing. Here in Sullivan County, it can be 3 or 4 weeks until there are fully executed contracts as the attorneys go back and forth with their addendums and mail documents back and forth (most haven't heard of .pdf's). With the change in appraisal rules requiring that the appraiser review a fully executed contract as part of the appraisal, the closing process is slowed down even more. In my area, 60 to 90 days to close from the time of an accepted offer is common. And between the buyer and seller there can easily be $2,000 to $3,000 in attorney fees even on a simple transaction.  

12/12/2006 07:17 AM by Catskills Buyer Agency


Gazumping, yes! I don't know if my Leeds area longtime English gal pal knows that term I will have to email her and ask. She recently went through a home sale and it really DID seem like something that was not seller OR buyer friendly! At least not for buyers who had contracts. She lost out on a house she really wanted and then later was on pins and needles right up until the close of her prior house as to whether or not it would go through. I'd have to be on heart medication if I worked there. David, in Cleveland, no one would buy if you added that much to the closing costs; the average closing cost totals here are $2500!

12/12/2006 09:15 AM by Carole Cohen Realtor®, ePRO (Howard Hanna Cleveland City Office)


Maureen, Thank you for your nice comment - I'm not afraid of an algorithm.

Jessica, I have heard the term gazumping. Thanks for the link, I didn't know it was a Yiddish word, I'm surprised we don't call it that here. I have an old friend that moved here from London about 10 years ago and the best thing they ever did was not selling their flat in London. The rental income from the London flat covers all their expenses in New York.

David, Thanks for stopping by and welcome to activerain. (most haven't heard of .pdf's) There are some very good attorney's that have never heard of voice mail or email, they still have secretary's. You have to play phone tag with them.

Carole, Hi - New York State also has a mortgage tax(1.75% up to $500K and 2.12% on larger loans. It doesn't apply to coops- yet and a mansion tax (1% for everything over $1million) I wouldn't call it a mansion when the average price of an apartment is over $1million. Out of state buyers are usually shocked.

12/12/2006 09:32 AM by Mitchell Hall, Associate Broker, New York, NY (Coldwell Banker Previews International)


Morning, Mitchell - I am on my way to tour three homes (it's tour day) but got out my trusty calculator....that is a lot of extra money!  I am sure that all the additional money spent on closing costs there (especially taxes) is put to very good use : - )

12/12/2006 09:55 AM by Carole Cohen Realtor®, ePRO (Howard Hanna Cleveland City Office)


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