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BEWARE! The Worst Lender EVER to deal with Short Sales Washington Mutual-WAMU

BEWARE! The Worst Lender to deal with Short Sales Washington Mutual-WAMU

I have dealt with many lenders in the State of Colorado doing Short Sales and the worst lender ever is Washington Mutual or WAMU. Fellow realtors Beware when you are dealing with this lender, my experience and the experience of other Realtors about this lender Washington Mutual is that they take so long to process and to care about your short sale files, many times they lose your files and the administration in Loss Mitigation Deparment & Customer service are not good enough to give a good and realiable service to Realtors or distressed homeowners to help to sell their homes. I have dealt with other lenders and I have never had this horrible nightmare experience, this is my second time that I deal with them and the same bad taste, some other fellows have told me the same as I wrote before, so I am not wrong. BEWARE! about the worst lender ever.

Ray Saenz, Colorado Realtor

Ray Saenz, Colorado Realtor
United Property Brokers, Inc
720 495 5385 Direct
www.homes-colorado.us
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Posted by Aurora Colorado Real Estate Ray Saenz, Colorado Realtor on 11/16/2007 06:29 PM

Comments (67)

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67 Comments on BEWARE! The Worst Lender EVER to deal with Short Sales Washington Mutual-WAMU

NOV

2007

Ray - So tell me how you really feel.....Don't hold back, just let it all out. : -)

All of these experiences could be the result of local support staff or lack of training or procedures for short sales.

I'd be interested in how they consider, counter, etc., offers and how they treat real estate commissions in the listing and co-op offers.

Any feedback on that??

Lenn,

This last time they gave me excuses, excuses and more excuses, let me tell you something, we know that we need first to send the Borrower's Authorization to release information and we ask for a complete short sale package to submit it to the right department, loss mitigation, in a short sale transaction some lenders require some other things that others not, etc, but almost it is the same procedure for every lender, so my client and I completed a full complete short sale package, with this stupid lender Washington mutual if you do not send the complete short sale package, they just ignore it and they throw away your file.

I called several times to confirm what the fax number was to send the short sale package, they gave me one, then I sent it to that one, I received confirmation from all the short sale package that it went through correctly. I waited some business days to see if they had updated something in their computer and guess what? Nothing,    I Re-asked and confirmed again the fax number, I re sent my complete short sale whole package and I received confirmation that it went through again, I am the kind of the person who wants to check everything with confirmations, so, I waited some other business days and again I called them, they stupid customer service told me that they did not have anything in the system, I was starting to be furious about this whole crap lender Washington Mutual.

My third fax and attempt, calling again and confirming the fax numbers, they gave me other one, and again, I re-sent it and waited and nothing, 3 fax confirmations and they did not update or supposed to received anything in their system computers.

I was so upset and I asked them that I would send it through DHL next day with delivery confirmation and signature confirmation, so after that, they finally updated in their crap computers/service.

Guess what?  every time that I was calling to get an update to loss mitigation department and customer service, they did not know that I have sent the borrower's authorization to release information, I always had to keep telling them that they should have since long time ago in their data files or somewhere else. I do not know how these people handle their business, but they are losing a lot of money / transaction with these stupid negligent people that they have in customer service and loss mitigation department.

It took a while more to get assigned this file to a negotiator, I have names, phones and everything, well, it is a super long story about that, it is better to speak about by phone or something, but some realtors have told me the same bad experience, my boss , he told me that it took him almost 6 months to close a short sale and was a nightmare and the buyer's agent was very pissed off about the whole transaction with Washington mutual, even when it was not my boss fault.

Well, there are always excuses, excuses and more excuses after excuses and they do not anything to give a good service and help distressed people, even they do not help each other, I gave them everything what they wanted and what they needed, all conditions, a fair offer and the highest one, etc, just waiting for a BPO or Appraisal and have a final answer, well, since that, I have not received any call from the negotiator,.

I have dealt with this file around since July and the worst thing is a really Puppy file, (small transaction or loan).

so, I am really mad and I do not think that they will care if I try to speak to corporate and supposed general manager or something above them, I do not that they care about it, because they have many customers.

Also, I have been told with all this experience that they are good with Loans/mortgages, but not to give good customer service to their clients and realtors.

I will not finish with all of this if I tell you all details about this, I can make a thick big book about the worst lender ever Washington Mutual, this property goes to foreclosure on December 19th 2007 and still they do not want to answer. I have been complaint and everything asking for supervisors or high level decision makers and the supervisor from the department of loss mitigation, always have voice mails and they just say "sorry for all the inconvenience, but try this or try that".

Believe me, I have earned many experience doing these short sales and this is not new to me, I meant "short sales", but I hate to deal with companies that they do not care to help them, if they want to go to foreclosure fine , if they want this or that fine, we can negotiate or speak about it, but not in that horrible and nightmare way how they handle their stupid transactions, are they really working and doing their job? NO! Washington Mutual is the worst lender Ever!

Washington Mutual in my experience sucks big time, sorry for my language, but it is the true.

I am seeing that many of you have bad experiences with Washington Mutual, It is not only me and we are not alone. I will write more about this in a while. Thanks for all your inputs.

Ray--How frustrating for you and your clients! I stay away from short sales as all I hear are horror stories. Here's another one.

Lenn,

BTW, the max comission that they tell you at front is 5.0% for both parties (listing and selling) , so that's a crap !!!!!!! Wells Fargo is not like that, they focus more on what they will be the net proceeds than checking how much you can make in comission. stupid lender ! (sorry for my language)

Teri,

Have you heard horror from Wamu too ? Please let me know, I want many feedback for many people to 100% confirm that they do not care that we work so hard to please them and still they do not care.

Ray Saenz

Sandra,

above I wrote to lenn what you wanted to know, just a little, as I wrote before, I can make a huge book about WAMU and maybe I can be famous and millionare :)

Ray Saenz

Ray, I have not done a short sale with WAMU but, I did a loan for a Buyer about two months ago, and the firm handling the Sellers side could not find the deed the day of the Closing. It took them six weeks to come up with another one. They were real lucky the my Borrower was getting a real good deal and hung in there, but even with a great deal she almost walked away.

I have not experienced a short sale with WAMU but this does not surprise me. They are probably very disorganized. I have dealt with similar mortgage companies that don't seem to be cooperative but they will lose in the end.

George,

hm.. and that was a normal thing, imagine a Short Sale ?, I would like to see more people feedback about this WAMU. thanks for your comments as always, it always helps me.

Ray Saenz

Stella,

yes, I have done with others that they do not care, but at least they tell you want they want and if you do not provide for what they want, it is over, but as I am telling you, at least they give you an answer and they tell you want they want. WAMU do not care about it, seems very unorganized and bad customer service.

Anyway, I appreciate your feedback / comment, thank you !

Ray Saenz

NOV

2007

Ray - I hope I don't have to deal with them. Dealing with some of the others are enough.

Ray--No...I haven't done any short sales with anyone. I tried to a few times early on in the crisis but they never worked out. This group sounds very difficult to work with.

Great, I just started the short sale process with WAMU on a clients home in Palm Springs...with all of the bad press they have received in the last two weeks about losses you would think they would be more responsive. UGH!

NOV

2007

Stella,

:) true, well thanks for stopping by and your comments, keep the good blog and work, I appreciate it.

Ray Saenz

Teri,

Well, whenever you need help of my experience, let me know, shoot me an email or call, I will tell you what I know. keep it good.

Ray Saenz

Stacy,

Good Luck, maybe with all the bad reputation that they have earned, maybe they will do something better with you. Let me know later on how did you do.

Ray Saenz

Has anyone had to do a short-sale through Wells Fargo? I am in the process of submitting paperwork to them but I have had problems in the past dealing with them just on getting a deal closed on time.

Nick

I have worked sometimes lately with them and what I have to tell you in my experiences with them, they are a Charm and Champ. :) Hopefully you can do the same with them, if you need help, let me know.

Ray Saenz

NOV

2007

Ray, Maybe this is WAMU's plan all along, Stall till it's an REO. It doesn't make sense but WAMU is wierd even as a consumer....

NOV

2007

Doug,

I can tell , i have told the same thing, so we are not wrong, it is not just us, it is many people around there having the same problems.

keep the good blog and thanks for comments.

Ray Saenz

Gosh, the WAMU horror stories sound like EMC - EMC tops the worst-to-short-sale list in my book.

Has anyone done a SS with Select Portfolio? Absolutely the best! Professioanl and courteous - YES courteous! I mentioned to the Lm that Select should package their SS SOP/policy and market it to all the other lenders! Select has the process down to a science.

Avelo is pretty good too

NOV

2007

Wendy,

thanks for the insights, I appreciate it, my best lender right now to work with is Wells Fargo, very great experiences and good customer service, etc :) I do not have complaints about them. Very easy going to negotiate and make transactions.

thanks for your inputs, I really appreciate it

PS: sorry for delay.

Ray SAenz

DEC

2007

My worst experience with bank owned REO is Wells Fargo.

I found a piece of property around my neighborhood. No sign on the proerpty. No body knows who the owner is. Talking to maintenance crew, all said it is Wells Fargo's REO. But they are not allowed to give out any telephone. Why not? You don't want a free mouth advertisement, Wells Fargo?

Log on its website to search, no such a property exists. It has been 19 month since I started to locate a phone to contact Wells Fargo. No phone, no email address can direct my offer. I am just watching it deterioted rapidly without an action.

But Wamu asset management in Irvine, CA is one of my favor in handling its asset. There are so many departments in an institution. They don't communicate each other very well and have different processing. I have never dealt with a Wamu short-sale so that I can say nothing about it.

DEC

2007

Ray,

I'm not surprise that you have this experience with Wamu. Even in the personal banking side, they are slow. As far as approving and closing on refi and purchase, they are slow. Thanks for sharing your experiences as this can come in handy. Wamu has grown so far in such a short period of time that there infrastructure may not be up to speed. As such, they are not as efficient. Until they can get this settled, it will not change based on what I've seen. However, Countrywide is better but not by that much. The offer had to be faxed to them 5 times before they confirmed it was received. Maybe this is all a bank thing?

Dave

DEC

2007

I feel your pain...Here is a a long story short. My client, a victim of Mortgage Fraud, gets an offer on her home. I submit it to WAMU the first week of Oct. On Oct. 24th it makes it to an actual person???? Then I spend the next 2 months calling once a week to check on the status. I am always sent to the wrong department and get hung up on several times. I can not leave a message for the specific person who has the file???WHAT!!! Dec. 13th my client attempts to call and is told her home has gone into foreclosure and the file is in transit to call back next week.

She asks so what have you benn doing with my file for 2 months when I had an offer?????

How wrong is this? She has done no wrong, a builder with no ethics took her for a ride and now she has a foreclosure on her credit when we had a buyer.

NEVER use WAMU!!!

JAN

2008

I have been working a short sale for a property in Key West, FL. with WAMU.

WAMU has done 3 appraisals ( bpo's) and forced the homeowner to do his own because of the inflated and unethical dishonesty of WAMU's appraisal values on this property. Upon the homeowners own appraisal, it still remains most accurate and with proof.

WAMU Loss Mit dept. in Florida has done the unthinkable over and over.

They were off by over $240,000.00 on THEIR OWN so called bpo and they still have inflated the value, and based their denials on these values.

So many people have looked at this home to buy but no takers for the price the lender wants from the short sale.

The man has expressed being suicidal through this short sale process how WAMU has been treating him.

Working on this short sale with WAMU for 7 months say's they are willing to make a deal. But they have played as if there is no God.

Any suggestions are welcome please.

Thanks!

Thanks for the info on this lender. I just took a shortsale listing and they have the same lender. Just what I need, more difficult lenders.

JAN

2008

Wamu is no different than a regular seller. They are ignoring the reality that housing price dramatically goes down.

Can we stop blame Wamu while we, as real estate professionals, are doing the same sh*t trying to get a listing by giving sellers imagined price hike and unrealistic expectation. Let me ask you guys who did BPO for WAMU? Isn't it one of our fellow agents?

Please see an updated version at: A Funny World (20): Don't Blame Me, Blame WAMU?

Oh I forgot to mention that the WAMU appraisal was off $240,000.00 on their appraisal within a 45 day period. They have turned their back on this homeowner that we are trying to help.

All documented!

JAN

2008

Lenn & other WaMu warriors,

I am about to list a home for a seller that will likely be a WaMu short sale. I have a couple of questions related to short sale pricing strategy?

When I spoke with the WaMu representative in Early Loss Mitigation, she stated that the property would need to be listed for a mimumum of 90 days before WaMu would consider a short sale. Have you found this to be the case?

Also if this is the process, when I begin listing the property is my objective to (a) start out listing at a price that will allow the seller to pay off the loan (even if it is entirely unrealistic) and reduce the the price regularly until I get down to the price indicated by recent sales or (b) just start out at the price indicated by recent sales and provide the bank with comps to justify the short sale pricing from Day 1?

Thanks,

dcs

FEB

2008

Taylor, Bean and Whitaker in Ocala Florida has to be one of the worst. No short sale unless the offer is within 95% of the principal balance. Hello, have they not read the news??? TB and W will also not entertain a Deed in Lieu of foreclosure. I guess they want to start collecting REO's. When will these lenders wake up?

MAR

2008

I am trying to do a Short Sale with Taylor, Bean & Whitaker. Has anyone here had a successful short sale with this company? 95 of the principal balance is RIDICULOUS, and the price they want is $75,000 more than what the house is worth. I just want to know if anyone has done a short sale with this company. Thanks so much.

MAR

2008

Hi Ray. I find that WaMu and Option One have been the worst so far. Freemont so far has been the best... one closing in five weeks!

Thank you for all the information.

I am very blessed that none of my Short Sales are with WAMU/or Option One. (SO FAR).

There is one thing we all need with all these Short Sales--PATIENCE !!!!!!!! and then you need a little bit more.

We as Realtors were there when times were good. Now, is the time to lend a hand to those borrowers in need. Yes, we are working double/triple to get half the return, but we are still standing tall and will get through this SHORT SALE/FORECLOSURE trend.

Word on the street is that WAMU will be absorbed by Chase in the Second Quarter.

I just recently posted to my blog about email addresses for lenders in hopes of everyone adding in their inside scoop on email addresses for various lenders. I added the email address format for WAMU and it is

firstname.lastname@Wamu.net

For example: lynn.pineda@Wamu.net

Perhaps this could help some of you like it did for me when I was having difficulty in reaching Wamu.

Good luck!

MAR

2008

I have been trying to get a short sale through Wamu. I received an offer on the home, and faxed all documents to Wamu. After calling 10 different phone numbers(some of the numbers are good 1 day and the next they are disconnected) probably 3 times a week for an update, I am told they don't have my authorization on file which I sent 2 times. Finally I get a name of a negotiator, and leave her messages which never get returned. I finally get in touch with the negotiator, and she says it has been transfered to another negotiator, and she won't give me an extension to it. So finally, I look at the tax records on the home today, and it is now a trustee slae. Wamu are absolute idiots. They have what I thought was a responable offer from comps, and they just decide to foreclose.

John Century 21

I am in a cluster $%^# with ASC/Weels Fargo right now. They have a bunch of incompetents working for them. I am amazed at the amount of complaints all over the web about them stalling short sales making the people go into foreclosure...sad.

MAR

2008

I've had experiences just like a few of those above especially like Kristi's. Unfortunately many of these banks are out of state, employees are just following script, and they honestly have no clue what the market is doing in our area!

I think ASC/Wells Fargo can give WAMU a run for thier money on this issue. Feel free to read my post and link to CNN article What the Duck?? Short Sales Suck pt 2!!

Ray you originally posted in November and it seems that very little has changed at WAMU. I thought it was just me, but I can assure you that the quality of the short sale department is still poor at WAMU.

MAR

2008

WAMU is the worst...from a buyers perspective. We found our dream home. The home was a short sale, listed for only 83 days. We made a full price offer (the price was accepted by the bank previously so the agent listed the property for that amount) on a Monday. Then on Tues we were told that the home had already gone to auction the thursday before we submitted our offer. No one was informed of this. The home is now a REO and has a new listing agent. WAMU's assest manager is aware of out offer for full asking price, but the still want a BPO for the new listing agent. The new agent has now sent them his report and now we have to WAIT for the house to be listed AGAIN. We only hope that the price doesnt go up! Its crazy that WAMU would wait to accept our offer for a new listing! ARG

Wow ... Lot's of good feedback from the AR community. I am in the process of several short sales trying to help sellers but none are with WAMU. Thanks for the heads up!

MAR

2008

Hey All!

I have someone that is wanting me to do a short sale on her home. She is in a predicament. Loan amount is $348,000. She has had the home on the market for a year and based on recent CMA her home is worth max $235,000. I have done several Short Sales so I have the knowledge.

What I would like to know is people's experience with Taylor, Bean and Whittaker. I have read just a couple negative posts and am hoping for some positive feedback. Let me know please, I appreciate it.

Ursula

APR

2008

Thanks for the heads up regarding wamu. Saxon Mortgage is up there too for horrible service on short sales..

APR

2008

I am getting ready to list a short sale and they are the lender on the 1st and 2nd, not looking forward to it now.

APR

2008

I am the victim of a investor who was also a Lender who fraudulently got 3 loans on my property through WAMU at an excess of 300,000 over the purchase price. He has now defalted on the loan and my home is going to be forclosed on in 3 weeks. I have a real estate friend who for 3 months has tried to reach someone in the short sale to negotiate the sale amount that was origanlly agreed to. If anyone can help me or my agent to be able to talk to someone before I lose my home to forclosure because of a scam, please let me or my agent know. Thank you,

Chris Brown 801-427-2940

Agent: Shelly Mathie 801-787-5160

Chris Brown 801-427-2940

Agent: Shelly Mathie 801-787-5160

Chris Brown 801-427-2940

Agent: Shelly Mathie 801-787-5160

MAY

2008

I have been having the same bad experience with WAMU. I faxed all the documents 3 times and my fax machine confirms they were sent, but everytime I call them, they are saying they have not received it. So I mailed it to them by certified mail which they have to sign and when I called 5 days after, they confirmed receiving it but it is not in the system yet. I call them everyday to check, and after a week they said they have it in the system, but I have to wait till it is assigned to a negotiator. I kept calling them everyday getting different person everytime and getting the same answer. After about a week, I was able to get a number for Loss Mit--1-866-244-1406, so I kept calling them again everyday. After another week getting different person to talk to, I was told that it takes 2 to 10 weeks before it is assigned to a negotiator. I kept calling them again everyday and the same thing, talking to a different person and getting the same answer. After 2 weeks, one person I talked to says they will order a BPO, and up to now, 2 weeks after, I kept getting the same answer from different person. It's been 2 months already since they said it is in the system, but still no positive results.

You guys are right, WAMU is the worst lender I have dealt with. My experience with CITI Residentail was a record. I was able to get the approval in less than a month, even though they lost $238,000.00 on that deal. We are closing on May 6, 2008, I listed the property on March 14, had a open house on March 16, got an offer on March 23, faxed all documents on March 25, got the approval on April 17, 2008, which is less than a month from submitting all documents.

JUN

2008

I can support everything you all have reported and more. WAMU is the most inept, inconsiderate, unethical institution I have ever had the displeasure of dealing with. Our short sale application took almost seven months to get approved. Here are just a few of the lowlights we had to endure over the course of this torturous process. Our "processor" scheduled a BPO on the wrong property , a property not even in the same state that the subject property was in , not once , but twice, 2 months apart. We had to resubmit complete packets multiple times due to "misplaced" , "not received" or the ultimate insult , our processor decided to jsut close our file because she was "tired of working on it" and she had "more important files to work on" and was "extremely overworked" in her position. Having phone calls returned or accurate feedback any time during the process was impossible. At one point we had a first mortgage, a home equity, a checking and a credit card with WAMU. I can tell you first hand the there is not a shred of understanding as to the concept of customer service or even civility or common courtesy at that pitiful excuse for a financial institution. And the nightmare for us has not ended yet. We still have to deal with their "recovery department". Going on week two receiving threatening correspondence via U.S. Mail, yet all attempts at contact by us go unanswered. Amazing. Any advice from anyone with any experience with this phase of this nightmare, please do tell. Good luck to all, you will need it.

JUN

2008

Take advantage of the issue~

I just completed a modification with a client at WAMU... my attorney worked on a loan modification with me and worked his magic by requiring WAMU to jump through legal hoops and time constaints and they failed miserably.

I am not an attorney but from what I got out of this was due to one fo the RESPA laws the attorney knew that they were required to submit a repsonse within 30 days and the original Note and TIL in 60 days. This was not completed and the letter that documented all this to their legal department triggered a modification to a 4.5% IO on a 5yr arm and forgave $12,600 in rears. They were in an option arm that recasted. (Payment went from $1300 a month to over $2700 a month).

This modification service runs $3500 but if it can save your home and thousands of dollars its worth the fee.

I hate to be the only one with positive feedback about Wamu but I just did a short sale with them and the Loss Mitigator called me in less than 48 hours of receiving the package! He called me! I thought he was awesome. I think you are all building a companies reputation on the one bad deal you might be having with someone that is a little more difficult to deal with. Every Company I have dealt with has had bad Mitigators and good ones. Do you all realize that the files that are closest to auction date get priority?

JUN

2008

Unfortunately we have found that your experience with WAMU is on par with several other lenders we currently negotiate with. It's a matter of persistence and patience! For that reason I formed my short sale processing company - so brokers and their agents don't have to deal with the hassles - and can just sell the property. We've got several files that they've lost the Authorization fax more than 4 times, as well as have had to re-submit the SS package 3 or more times! Hold times can be up to 1 1/2 hours, and that doesn't guarantee the call is not going to get dropped 30 minutes into your hold time! It's no fun - but it must be done!

We've also found that a lot of decisions by the banks are being made right down to the wire - within days of the Auction.

If you want to contract out the paper pushing side of the short sale that's what we do! We've also got a good handle on short sales that you shouldn't even take on.

JUL

2008

Wells Fargo is the absolute worst bank to deal with regarding short sales. I sent them 5 offers on my short sale property a month ago and my strongest offer was 30k over list price. I was talking with wells fargo a few times a week and documenting who I spoke with an what our conversation was in regards to my file. All along I told them that I wanted to extend the forclosure date so that my file would be read by an underwriter. I was told that everything was just fine. At the end of last week I was told my file had been sent to the underwriters for review. I called them this morning and they told me that the property went to sherrifs sale. The loss mitigation department was full of crap and sat on my 5 offers on this property. I am very pissed.

Hi Ray . Thanks for sharing the great tip on this lender. Keep them coming.

JUL

2008

Ray, good post...WAMU is the worst however 5% commission is an industry average, they do have to show "everybody" gave something to the bank examiners who audit the write downs.

Most of the lender's reps were in processing last year and had a 2 day class on short sales before answering the phone

JUL

2008

We have 5 files in with WaMu and over 2 months later we have no communication, no updated notes, no returned calls. Our file handler must be handling files by Trustee Sale date is all I can figure out.......all the other banks we are dealing with are moving at a much faster rate than last year and certainly faster than WaMu.

My worst and longest experience with short sale is with Countrywide. And still holding....

JUL

2008

Ed,
Maybe Wells fargo is not good in the REO departments / asset managers, I have not tried them in that way, but I understand you, Wells Fargo is like that when you try to contact them unless you have a good relationship with them. thanks for your comments and sorry for delay.

Dave,
Countrywide is taking so long these days for answers, oohh well, sorry for delays and thanks for your comments, it is always helping us. take care.
Ray Saenz

Tonya,
what a crap, sorry for delay and thanks for your comments, I still say Washington Mutual is the worst lender ever, still many people are complaining about this.
Ray Saenz

OCT

2008

HELP: Does anyone have any experience with Aurora Loan Services and how commission friendly they are? I have done a few successful short sales and fortunatelly most have been with Wilshire. I have changed my business a bit where I and now trying to work with other Realtors to negotiate their short sales as a Loss Mitigation Company. Since I have never had to deal with Aurora, and now I am in the process of submitting a short to them, I have done a little research and I hear they are horrible to work with. I am very concerned, especially that this of negotiating other people's short is new. I am trying to be very careful to protect the Realtor's commissions and at the same time I'm trying to make sure that the banks in dealing with are ok with a loss mit fee/ short sale processing fee.

Can anyone recomend other banks that are willing to pay a loss mitigation company fee/ and those that do not. Also, I need to inform the Realtors of those banks that do not pay more than 4% commissions.......Please Help!

OCT

2008

yes ray it's october and i'm complaining about them as well

i hate Wamu as much s you do... worst customer service and NO response.. we were assigned a negotiator on 8/15 and i still have not heard from her or am i able to get in touch with her...

real bad service....

OCT

2008

Hi Ray, it seems that many of these banks do not care about the consumer or Realtors that are trying help lenders keep performing loans and avoid bankruptcies. Nice post and commentary Ray.

OCT

2008

Ah! and now they are being bought!

Very happy I did not ever have to deal with them.

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