For those who haven't read the other post, PAP is pole aerial photography.  Stick your camera to the end of a pole, hold it up on the air and take pictures of listings.  It just gives you a different look from the typical front photo of a house.

PAP

I started off by attaching my little Sony DSC-P71 to the end of three bull float handles.  Bull float handles are aluminum poles which are six feet long with a male thread in one end and a female thread in the other.  This allows you to screw together as many as you need.  With three I had 18 feet of height, but it was very unmanigable and really needed two people to get it up and positioned in time before the timer went off.  In addition, I would take a photo, then review it to see which way I needed to turn or tilt the pole to get the shot I needed.  I would say it took six to ten shots to get the one I wanted.

I later realized that if I just had two handles (12 ft), I could manage it by myself plus, it's so light that I could hold the whole thing above my head.  This means the base is six feet off the ground giving the original 18 feet I had in the first place.  Then I added a pocket TV at the base so I could see what the camera sees.  This meant I got the shot I wanted the first time.

The nice thing about the bull float handles is that they are very light and once screwed together are very ridged.  Each pole (handle) is six feet long, so you will need the space in your car to carry them.  I kept them under the seats of my Caravan and no one ever know they were there.

The mount I was using for the camera was disabled, so I built another mount out of a paint roller.  See photo below.  The base is a peice of aluminum cut to length.  I drilled one hole for the 1/4 20 bolt to hold the camera and two holes for the nylon straps that go around the roller wire.  Originally I had mounted some turn buckles to the plate to allow me to adjust the tilt by pulling strings.  It turns out that there is enough friction on the straps that the camera will stay in whatever position you put it in and tilting the pole was all the minor adjustment I needed to get the shot.  I'm learning that adding complexity is not a good thing unless great benefit is derived.

PAP

Here's a picture of the monitor mount at the bottom of the pole.  I use a pocket TV and those rubber bracelets that are so popular to hold it to the mount.  Like the camera mount, all hardware was purchased at a home supply store.

pap monitor mount

To be honest, I never really used the home-made paint roller camera mount.  My new 30' telescoping pole came in at that time and I focused my attention there.

Below is my current system.  The pole is a Hastings Hotstick which telescopes up to 30 feet.  The two things I like about it are the push button locks make it quick to deploy and it's fiberglass so it doesn't conduct electricity.  The camera mount on this one is also home-made (okay, that's not true).  I had a friend make it for me in his shop.  But really it's just a peice of angle aluminum with two holes drilled in it.  I got the thumb screw and big wing nut from a hardware store.  That's what we used to have before the home supply stores ran them out of town.

Below the mount is a strap with three links of chain so I can attach the strain clip for the cable and guy wires for night shots.  The monitor mount is an old car phone mount I cut the ear piece off and glued it to the back of the TV.  So the monitor has the cool quick release that I never use, but I digress.  I put the whole thing with camera, cable, monitor and all on the scale and it came to exactly 15 pounds.  The total height collapsed is less than six feet.  I can extend the pole to 30' and back down in about 15 seconds.  From parking to taking pictures takes less than two minutes.  The system is simple, versatile and does exactly what I need.

PAP 2.0

pap in use

pap up close

I have spoken to guys who have 50' PAP systems.  They tell me how great they are, but any height above 30' requires some sort of mount.  A stationary mount means you need a pan/tilt unit at the top of the pole.  In turn this means more weight, more complexity and more time for setup and take down.  The 50' systems are great for certain applications, but for what I do, this simple system I have works well.

With everything including camera, remote shutter release with zoom control, monitor, cables and pole, I have about $1,000 in the whole thing.  For less cost and complexity, I would go with a painter's pole or two bull float handles (about $22 each) and a portable DVD player as a monitor.  As long as the pole is short enough to raise and position in ten seconds, use the timer method.  Longer poles will need a remote shutter release.  I use the DigiSnap 2000 from Harbortronics.

Margaret Hokkanen says she uses two painter's poles joined for greater height and a six foot step ladder for extra height.  I think that's very smart.  Just be careful.  The whole reason for PAP is so I don't have to get off the ground.  Not that I mind, it just adds to the risk.  I'm a pilot and have even jumped from a balcony because I got locked out of a vacant home during a showing, but that's another story.

 
Post is included in group: Aerial, Pole, Kite, and RC Photography
Post is included in group: Photography
Post is included in group: Photography, Advanced

32 Comments on Evolution of my PAP system

DEC
07
2007
165,573 Points Outside Blog
Love the pictures but is a lot of work to get them.  Hope your sellers appreciate you but they probably don't/
2:45pm • #1

Once you get the process down it doesn't take much more time than using a tripod.  I probably get more favorable comments from other angents than anybody.  The most important thing is that I want the house to get noticed by a potential buyer and this does that.  The photos are good, but more importantly they look different enough to stand out from the typical photos.  So when a potential seller is looking through the homes magazine for thier next agent, they may see that I take the extra step to get thier home noticed by potential buyers.

Do I have more listings than I can handle...no.  So does this work...I don't know, but it makes me feel good that I'm doing a good job.  I guess I just need to market the idea better.

4:34pm • #2
5 Featured Posts

Lee,

You have an awesome rig!  The only thing that occurs to me is that I don't see how you can put the camera into portrait position if you want to take a portrait shot.  (For most of my brochure covers, I prefer the vertical orientation because it is being printed on vertically-oriented paper.)  What do you do if you want a vertical pic?

I have a dumb question: Do you raise the pole vertically (i.e., the pole is in a vertical position and you push each segment up until you get the height you want)?  Or do you extend the pole and leave it lying on the ground and then lever it up into a vertical position?  Have you considered trying to make a stand to hold it up vertically so you're hands-free?  (I've thought about using a 3 ft metal pole attached to an X cross bar so that you could stand on the X while you're taking the pics.)  Any thoughts?

NOTE TO THOSE THINKING ABOUT DOING THIS STUFF: I agree completely with Lee that 95% of the photo shoots require LESS than 30ft in height.  Why? Because at 40 ft, you'll be looking down on the house, and the roof isn't very interesting.  There have been rare situations where I needed a taller pole, but it is rare (e.g., shooting OVER a 25 foot home to see the ocean behind it).  Trying to lever a 40 foot pole is difficult (if not dangerous) due to the forces in play - trust me I know from experience.  Keeping a 40 ft pole vertical is also difficult, and if it tips very far, you can easily lose control with your $400 camera accelerating towards the pavement.  (One of my cameras bit the dust, literally, that way.)

Margaret Hokkanen

 

5:44pm • #3

I currently have no way to orient the camera in the portrait mode.  I guess I would shoot wide and crop for portrait.  Honestly I have never used my photos for large print layouts.  They are usually used for Internet and small print layouts which means cropping in this situation wouldn't be too bad.

 The pole is stood vertically.  I raise the top section, then the next and the next and so on.  As you mentioned, laying the pole out and trying to tip it up would be very difficult.  Early I thought a stand would be important, but after much study realized unless the pole was staked down by guy wires, I could never really walk away from it.  Even with a tripod or base, the wind could easily blow or tip it over.  Remember there is a huge moment arm there.  Having realized that a stand would just get in the way and after much use with this pole, I've put away the idea of a base or stand.  It is very easy to collapse the pole.  If I have to walk away from the pole for some reason, I just collapse it (about 5-10 seconds of time) and lay it down.  Since my pan and tilt are twisting and tipping the pole, it's not like I'm going to walk away from the pole to take a picture anyway.  I really like the simplicity.

TO ADD TO MARGARET's NOTES:  If you use a wide angle lens, you can step closer to the house increasing the down angle making it appear as though you shot from a higher altitude.  I have been able to shoot almost straight down onto a roof of a single story home.  The purpose of that shot was to show the new shingles.  Not artistic at all.  One of the websites which sells the Hastings Hotstick makes note that any pole extended over 30 feet must have two people on the pole.  I too would recommend this.  And they do sell a 40 foot version.  I know a guy in Oklahoma who uses the 40 foot version and he made a mount for the back of his car.  It also includes some guy wires to stabilize the pole from swaying.  Swaying when the pole is fully extended occurs, but I deal with it.  One thing you could do is set your focus to infinity which will reduce the shutter lag helping to you to time the shot during the sway.  If you don't go that high, sway is not a problem.

To continue on about having the pole fully extended: If the bottom of the pole comes off the ground, you will not be able to keep the pole from falling over.  One thing I did was apply the hook side of some Velcro tape to the bottom of my pole so I could attach a dog stake with a strap to the bottom of the pole.  In this way, if the bottom of the pole came off the ground, I could still maintain control.  I see it as a safety measure.  Now having said that, I don't use it much.  It would slow me down.  I also only use the guys for night shots.  I attach two guy wires about 30 feet back an 30 feet to each side then lean the pole against the wires in the opposite direction (front).  I then wait for the oscillations to stop and take the picture.  I think the method works well.  Three guy wires would require two people to set up.

7:45pm • #4

Margaret,  When I first started using the pole, I was very concerned about it tipping over, so I would hold it against my body like a hug to stabilize it as much as possible.  Thats why I wanted the monitor to be extended out front of the pole and not on the back of the pole like on my short pole setup.  In the above pictures, it looks like I'm holding the pole out in front of me and when there's not much wind, I can.  But when the wind is up I have to careful a deliberate with everything that I do.  One thing that surprised me once I got used to the pole is how far I could lean it over without loosing control.  Below is one of the photos I took last year of the master's sandcastle contest.  I could have leaned the pole over further and taken the shot straight down.  I did that for other shots, but I'm sure the masters would not appreciate a pole coming down on their work.  Then I would feel bad, loose my camera and be hated as well.

sandcastle

7:55pm • #5
I have one more comment tonight.  Yesterday I needed photos of the front of a new listing but I didn't have my PAP gear with me.  I did have my tripod.  So I extended the legs of the tripod, set the timer and lifted the bottom of the legs up to my chest to stabilized it.  That got me to about 10 feet in height and the photo came out just fine.  If you are shooting real estate, you need a tripod.  Give this a try for a while until you get the nerve to go big (or rather tall).
8:06pm • #6
DEC
09
2007
167,084 Points 17 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

Lee,

Great post with clear directions on how to implement your PAP system.  I would like to give it a try and my husband, a really handy guy, would be able to put your system together no problem.

Thanks,

9:21pm • #7
DEC
19
2007
5 Featured Posts

Lee,

Well, after having seen your rig, I was so pumped about building a better rig that tonight I did so.  I didn't want to spend the money for one of your linesman poles.  So, I went searching at Home Depot and found that they now have 8 ft painter extension poles that extend to 16 ft.   So, by purchasing two of these, I am able to get to a core height of 24 (8+16 due to the fact that the extension provides the support between pole 1 and pole2).  The good news is that it's still light enough that I can pick it up, getting me to 28 ft easily.  I could probably get 2 more feet by having a small part of pole 1's extension adding height.  The quick release mechanism seems to be pretty good, too, and, having been a bit sloppy on my first rig, I used extra care when drilling holes this time (fiber glass can shred pretty easily with a drill).  I haven't taken any pictures with it, but I know that it's taller than the peak of my 2 story home, and since the poles collapse to 8 ft, I have no problem getting them in the car.  I'm psyched!  NOTE: After all that work, I also know that I'll rarely need more than the 1 16 ft pole, but I've got the height when I need it. 

Margaret

8:15pm • #8
Great job Margaret!
8:18pm • #9
FEB
23
2008
What great ideas - I appreciate all of the detail you have gone into when explaining this to us!
1:17pm • #10
FEB
26
2008
132,527 Points Outside Blog
I like how you progress to the final product.  I might try some of your techniques first with paint roller and move up from there.
3:34pm • #11
FEB
28
2008

Thanks for the ideas...I'm happy enough with my tripod fully extended and my feather weight v570 raised above my head!  If I need more "oomph" I'll just pack a ladde.

 

11:39am • #12
You know Edward, I was teaching a photography class to agents on Tuesday and that's exactly what I told them.  You really only need to get half way from the ground to the roof line for the best shots.  For a single story home, that's about 8 to 12 feet.  What you are trying to accomplish is a level shot of the home verses one looking upward to the home.
1:53pm • #13

Lee- thanks again for so much detail.  One question - assuming I go with the cheaper route of bull float poles, and go for the monitor integration:

What is the power source for the monitor?  I know how to connect my camera to a monitor (old dvd portable dvd player used in the car for the kids) via RCA cables, but what is the power source for the monitor? 

 Thanks,

 John

Lake Martin Voice
10:59pm • #14

Just had a brainstorm that should work for us cheapskates and help us know where we are aiming the camera without a LCD or monitor.

I have a laser pointer that came with a rifle bore sighter.  Basically it's one of those tiny laser light pointers.  Maybe some of you have one for presentations, etc.  I think it would be pretty easy to velcro one to the camera and have a reference point on the house of where you are aiming.

That way you can set the timer on your cheap p&s camera, stick it in the air, take the pic.  When you review it, you can adjust the next one by aiming at a different spot on the house.  maybe it will cut the trial and error down to 3 pics instead of 6 or 10.

I think you can buy the laser presentation pointers for like $40 or $50.  My bore sight laser cost about $60 and is good up to 100 yards or so to the naked eye.

Thoughts?

John

11:48pm • #15
FEB
29
2008

The power source for me is batteries in the portable TV and would be the same if you used a portable DVD player.  If you use a portable DVD player intended for the car, you will have to rig a power source from a battery pack.  I have seen them on various sites, but Radio Shack should be able to help you.

I had never even considered a lazer pointer.  Not bad!  One draw back is that you will have to photo shop out the red dot out of each photo.  I might give it a shot if I already had a lazer lieing around.  A portable DVD player is less than $100 and what you are trying to do with it is frame the shot, not just try pointing in the general direction.

Now without any preview, you are just pointing in the general direction.  If you get a wide enough shot, you can just crop to get the framing you desire. 

Let me say again that you need a tripod for interior shots anyway.  Holding up the tripod method with timer set is a great first step. 

12:28am • #16

Thanks Lee.  Yeah I think the dot would need to be photoshopped out, if visible.  Usually my pics are viewed in such a small format that I doubt that would matter. 

I have a couple of homes that are on sloped lots and I can't get a great pic of them.  I have tried climbing a step ladder and holding the tripod over my head .... all of this is on a dock over water at a lake .... not fun.  I have been searching for a solution to try to get higher than the tripod / stepladder combo without spending $1,000.  I really appreciate your and Margaret's extremely clear instructions and photos.  I am excited about building one.

All of this makes me wonder how cool it would be to put my video cam on top of a pole and incorporate PAP shots into my video tours. Incidentally, Fred Light has a great Active Rain blog on videography, and he discusses the PAP problem, but he goes high dollar and high tech for outdoors.  Then again, his video tours are truly professional and therefore look great.

Thanks again,

John

 

9:44am • #17
MAR
05
2008
That is really cool!   Thanks for the post
11:39pm • #18
MAY
20
2008

Thanks so much for all the detail.  I have been toying with the idea of PAP for a while now but did not know where to start for a reasonable price.  Definitely some grea ideas here.  Thanks so much for sharing.

9:17am • #19
JUL
30
2008

If didn't have a portable tv and you had a digital video camera, would it work to use that on the PAP and take a good frame from your video?

Louise Speck (Twin Oaks Realty)
9:43am • #20

Louise, are you wanting to use the video camera monitor to see what your still camera sees on the pole?  That sounds like a good idea to me.  What you have to look for is a VIDEO IN socket on your video camera.  If that's available, then it should work.  It's easy to test out once you have the cable.

3:39pm • #21
FEB
21

Lee, Have you ever considered using a tripod base?, I know it limits the freedom of movement, but would make a more managable and stable platform,especially for twilight shots.

You can use a surveyors Aluminium tipod, I believe that the ones with the bigger center hole will take a hotstick, and the hole is actually triangular, allowing you to use three wedges to hold the pole in place. I did see a commercial system like this once, all mounted on a golf trolley, can't remember the supplier though.

I've got a 10m clark mast, but would like something more mobile for walking around the property, I did look at a hot stick, but I think they are a bit too flexible to put a dslr on top, I've also got a 5m carp pole but the canon G5 is a pain to trigger, and almost as heavy as a dslr when it has the wide adapter on it. I might have to invest in a panny LX3 ;-).

marcus
4:55pm • #22
FEB
22

Marcus,  I use guy wires for night shots.  The LX3 is awesome, but I don't think there is a remote trigger for it.

9:11pm • #23
FEB
24

No you're right about the remote, no intervalometer either, but KapChris has an elegant solution:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/kap_cris/3154193529/

marcus
1:58am • #24
JUN
09

Thanks for the info on your PAP system.  I've also been experimenting with it, and with my Canon Digital Rebel with the tri-pod extended and me holding it up I've gotten some good shots.  Here's the results of my using just a tri-pod and taking a timed shot:

PAP in Rocklin

Great for getting a different perspective.

11:58am • #25
JUN
10

Jeff, judging by this shot, the camera has to be at least 15' up.  In using the method you described (I still set the timer and lift my tripod when I don't want to haul out the taller pole) I can get the base of the tripod up about 5'.  If I'm standing in the back of the pickup that still only gets my camera up about 12'-14'.  How tall are you Man?

Great shot.  Even though my pole will go up 30', I find my best shots are usually between 15 and 20 feet up.  I've had people inquire about selling turn-key PAP systems, but I'm not sure there's that much a market for it.  Real estate agents like myself would be the most common consumer and we are cheap or at lease tight.  I'm toying around with an idea what would provide ample height for a compact camera, maybe a video feed and possibly remote shutter release for as little money as possible.  The problem is that there are many cameras out there and not all have the remote shutter capability, plus those that do have this ability use different methods.  Video out doesn't seem to be a problem.  Maybe I should start a blog on the topic to see if there might be any interest.

11:10am • #26
JUN
28

Great looking system. I'm looking into doing PAP for my customers.  

Thanks

4:33pm • #27

You've inpired me, Lee, to try this myself. I went cheap but sturdy: I bought a 6-12 foot extension painter pole and hacksawed off the top (threaded) piece. This left me with a 12 foot hollow fiberglass and aluminum pole.

I bought an inexpensive monopod from B&H and hacksawed off the bottom section. The rest of the monopod (with the ball head attached) slid nicely into the top of the pole. The monopod extended into the pole around a foot, resting on one of the monopod's extension latches.

Next, I drilled two holes through the painters pole and through the inner bottom monopod extension. I inserted two lug bolts with lock washers and wingnuts.

For the camera release, I bought a no-name 10-foot wired shutter release from ebay; works perfectly. It's secured to the pole with a couple of rubber bands.

It was pretty scary at first, plopping my D80 atop this rig, but I know in my gut it is solid and secure. I've gone out a few times with it now, and I'm starting to feel comfortable and confident in its use.

I do not use any sort of monitor - I shoot with a wide angle and crop accordingly, sometimes fixing distortion in post processing. I'm getting pretty good at aiming and angling.

I can raise and lower the pole in seconds. It fits nicely in my car when collapsed. It was relatively cheap to build (around $70, including the wired remote). And, from solid ground with the monopod extended, I get just shy of 15 feet up. I feel that's pretty much all the altitude I need.

An added bonus: it's a great conversation starter. :)

Jon

 

Jon
8:34pm • #28
JUN
29

Great job Jon.  I think you built a very good system.  As I've said many times, you only need to get up about 15 feet to make the difference.  I am waiting on a D5000 to arrive.  It has live view, so I will be connecting a monitor.  I've opted for a wireless remote from B&H and will be adding a wireless video down-link after the camera arrives.

9:16am • #29
AUG
04

I'm not sure if you guys are aware of this, but any Canon DSLR camera that supports live view can also support "Remote Live View" thru the USB cable.  Using the laptop (and a LONG USB cable), the camera can be manually focused, exposure settings adjusted, and remotely triggered as well. 

Of course, this would now be a two-person job if you're holding a pole.  Bogen/Manfrotto does have a 24' tripod, but that's about $650.

Joel
4:41am • #30
OCT
19
1 Featured Post Outside Blog

Thanks for the link, Lee. Great pole! Looks really sturdy (and safe, or safer--read note by manufacturer about powerlines!). Shipping to Canada might be an arm and a leg, though. But I'm often in the States.

Like I was saying in my blog, I have found the easiest way to trigger is with the custom timer feature on many cameras (I have been using a Canon Powershot SX100IS). You can set a delay (I use 30sec), and then how many shots to take in a row (I do 3 while slightly turning the horizontal angle to make sure I got it all in). Usually I get in on the first take up!

Canons also come with proprietary software (free!) to shoot tethered to a laptop, and control the camera with the laptop--as Joel commented above. You can change any setting without bringing the camera back down. We ordered an 16 foot USB cable on eBay and strap it to the pole. It's just cumbersome on my own--great when I've got someone else with me.

3:39pm • #31
OCT
31

Just found your group and host of comments. I've been doing the low level aerials (pole photography) for almost five years now. I cover all of Central Florida. I'm using a 70' and 30' tall mast and do all types of photography, real-estate, weddings, events, sports etc......... I love what I do! In Florida most of the estate homes are ocean, lake or golf front and the homes are about 50' high on average. To get the home and the view I find I need a bit more height. Love all of the enthusiasm you all are showing in your post. Joe

 

Joe Stewart
7:39pm • #32

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Lee Jinks

McAllen, TX

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Coldwell Banker La Mansion

Address: 508 E Dove, McAllen, TX, 78504

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