Standard breaker and and tandem breaker

Home inspectors by definition are generalists, not experts. You even might call us expert generalist. Or perhaps not. The thing with being a generalist is that one must know a little about a lot of things. It is almost a full time job in itself keeping up with all the bits and pieces of knowledge to be a well informed generalist.

Some of the ways to keeps up with all the information in this profession and to stay current is by attending seminars, going to home inspector meetings or reading up on various topics. Reading is always a good source of information, especially when doing an inspection. Reading data tags and labels is a great source of information. In fact I believe in most instances in can be said to be indisputable information.

At least I thought so until recently.

Sub panel with too many tandem breakers

I inspected a larger home that had undergone a complete remodel about 5 years previous when the current owner had purchased the house. Part of the renovation required electrical work. The house has two electric panels. Both are full.

When checking the second panel, a sub panel, I noted a plethora of tandem breakers. Tandem breakers are two circuit breakers that occupy the space of a single breaker. They are sometimes called space savers. Manufactures of electric service panels designate specific areas in the panel where tandem breakers can be installed. Some panels do not allow for any tandems, many allow for them in the bottom four positions and others run the gamut from the entire panel to some where in between.

The manufactures when designating these positions also states the maximum amount of “poles”. Poles are simply circuits or a part of a circuit. A single breaker is a single pole, a tandem breaker is two poles and large breaker such as is used for a dryer is also two poles. This information is printed on the panel label. In the case of the sub panel I was inspecting, the manufactures label showed the maximum amount of poles allowed to be 24. Tandem breakers were designated only for the bottom four positions. This panel had 34 poles with tandem breakers in almost every position.

Panel breaker diagram. Did I misread something?

The issue was written into my report and presented to the seller for correction. The seller hired a licensed electrician to address the electrical issues found during the home inspection, one of which was the over loaded sub panel.

The electrician found nothing wrong with the tandem breakers or the sub panel. His “report” stated, “It is in good working condition and poses no safety hazard”.

I wonder if he did any reading.

 

James Quarello
Connecticut Home Inspector
Former SNEC-ASHI President
NRSB #8SS0022
JRV Home Inspection Services, LLC

ASHI Certified Inspector

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51 Comments on I’m No Expert, But…

20 Most Recent Comments Displayed Show All

MAR
21
2012
424,237 Points 28 Featured Posts Outside Blog Called Shot Master

James~ Yea I got that your particular situation wasn't about out dated equipment! I wanted to point(out dated equipment is what I see getting called out the most), you never know and never rule out anything just because equipment is new! There must be a qualified inspection done, just because it's "new" doesn't mean its' safe & that goes for new construction as well!
8:59am • #32
126,125 Points 4 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Hmm...sounds like a second opinion from another electrician might be helpful to the buyer. The home inspector I use, used to be an electrician in his previous carreer. He even knows what panels typically have issues over the years and makes sure to tell buyer in case they want to change out the entire panel. 
9:26am • #33
498,020 Points 13 Featured Posts Outside Blog Called Shot Master

Hi James, I no expert either.  I would like to know the electrician's logic vs. the manufacturers.
10:59am • #34
202,416 Points 11 Featured Posts Outside Blog Attended Rain Camp

The beauty of being a general contractor is that you don't have to know a little about everything necessarily albeit it certainly doesn't hurt. But truth be known I use subs just for that reason. What I don't know I sub out to qualified licensed, bonded and insured contractors that have workmans comp. Then I've always got someone to point my finger at. 
11:45am • #35
141,133 Points Attended Rain Camp

Dear James,

Looks like these folks are due for a "heavy up." Since monkeying with electricity can burn down your house, I never experiment there. Now if a kid wants to paint their bedroom lilac or dark gray, I might be more open to it.
12:40pm • #36
254,724 Points 9 Featured Posts Outside Blog Called Shot Master

I hope they brought someone in for a second opinion. It sounds like what you found could be dangerous if not repaired.
1:07pm • #37
422,240 Points 16 Featured Posts Called Shot Master

I would go with the electricians recommendation, generally more based on science and common sense, the mfr is generally motivated on their attnys being overcautious and the added incentive of making you buy a larger box when your is getting full.
3:09pm • #38
567,760 Points 140 Featured Posts Outside Blog Called Shot Master

Allen, Tandem breakers are not illegal, each pole is a separate circuit. What you're thinking of is tandem used for a two pole circuit like for a dryer. 

Sandy, Yep I agree too.

Julie, I don't argue with any seller...I let the agents do that :)

Wayne, You got that right!

Judi, I have learned that lesson again and again. 

Don, I find one can be specific and a generalist all in one. This problem was quite well spelled out in the report, whether the electrician ever laid eyes on the report, I have no way of knowing. 

Jon, I get your meaning now (sorry sometimes I'm a little slow) and you are spot on. 
3:37pm • #39
567,760 Points 140 Featured Posts Outside Blog Called Shot Master

Lisa, A moot point, the buyer walked because of other issues. 

Bob, That makes two of us.

John, Interesting business model. Me I'd want to know as much as I could so I could manage my projects. 

Dorte, With this panel being over loaded, there is that possibility. 

Amanda, No need, the buyers walked from the deal.

Bob, How would an electricians recommendation be based on science? They are taught how wire, not theory, that would be an electrical engineer. Also the box is designed by engineers based on science and electrical theory. Lastly when a manufacturer makes a panel that accepts tandems, they can only be put in the designated slots. If an electrician puts tandems in other slots he has used replacements, which are not for that panel (more engineering). 
3:49pm • #40
917,068 Points 178 Featured Posts Outside Blog Attended Rain Camp Called Shot Master

@ Bob, in the case of electrical components if this logic were accurate they would not have panels you could buy that have tons of spaces---so many so that no twin breakers would be necessary or allowed.  The size of panels has more to do with size constraints in relation to where you need to put it than it does cost.  The cost difference between a big metal box and a small metal box is not such a real factor.  When you start putting 20 twin breakers in it instead of 40 single breakers in it is where the cost starts to add up.  Each panel has a UL listing that is obtained by the testing of the engineering that went into the panel.  If it says you can only put 4 twin breakers in it---it would behoove anyone to pay attention.  Technically the UL listing is voided as soon as you add that fifth one---or put them in places not designated for them.
4:00pm • #41

This electrician just treated you and anyone else that was involved as idiots.  He also gave a big black eye to his brother electricians, who should be ashamed to be affiliated with this fellow.  A license is one thing to get, a good reputation and respect is much harder to get, and keep.
7:23pm • #42
1 Featured Post
 

This electrician just treated you and anyone else that was involved as idiots.  He also gave a big black eye to his brother electricians, who should be ashamed to be affiliated with this fellow.  A license is one thing to get, a good reputation and respect is much harder to get, and keep.  (sorry, I should have checked that I was still logged in)
7:24pm • #43
1,023,886 Points 15 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Called Shot Master

I would question that electrical report if I was the buyers.  Another think a good home inspector needs to be is systematic.
9:41pm • #44
MAR
22
2012
567,760 Points 140 Featured Posts Outside Blog Called Shot Master

Ken, The same can be said of those in any field that do not perform their jobs well. 

Gene, So true, having a system is key to doing good inspections. 
3:19am • #45
479,463 Points 59 Featured Posts Outside Blog Called Shot Master

Hi James,

There are inspectors and then there "ARE Generalist's". These generalist's are found to be working in the inspection business for a municipality, county or state. There are way too many inspectors that don't do there job and have not attended a seminar or any online training for years. I have had FPE panels inspected by an Electician and not to see a problem, even with the "double lugging".

And this is what our tax dollars go for.

Have a good day.

Clint McKie
4:05am • #46
292,952 Points 3 Featured Posts Outside Blog Attended Rain Camp

Part of being a professional is knowing what you know and what you don't know. What you claim to know, but don't can result in hassle and financial loss to your clients. You are definitely on top of your game as a professional and a fantastic generalist! Thanks for all your posts, I really enjoy reading them!
5:28am • #47
Outside Blog

Hi James,

Hopefull the Licensed Electrician wasn't the same guy that originally installed the seventeen extra poles into the panel. Maybe a third opinion is needed here to break the tie.
11:51am • #48
MAR
23
2012
567,760 Points 140 Featured Posts Outside Blog Called Shot Master

Clint, Like all things there are some who do a great job and others that just do the job, sometimes even less than that.

Sylvie, Very true, none of know what we don't know. The more I learn, the more I see that I don't know as much as I thought I did :) Thanks for reading my ramblings, glad you like them. 

Jack, I beleive he is the guy that did do the original work. The buyers walked so no need to purrsue the matter. 
3:35am • #49
202,416 Points 11 Featured Posts Outside Blog Attended Rain Camp

I don't recall ever having had a managment problem and I've done several thousand jobs in the past 30 years. But thanks for the counseling.
6:58am • #50
MAR
24
2012
567,760 Points 140 Featured Posts Outside Blog Called Shot Master

John, No counseling, just sayin' if it was me. I spent a bit of time in management. 
5:00am • #51

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