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Permits Schmermits

This article reminded me of my experience with the permit process was for a gas fireplace that we had installed last year.

After installation, a very nice elderly gentleman came to our door. This man, the inspector should have retired many moons ago. He was more interested in our ‘nice kitchen' and friendly dogs than the fireplace he came to inspect. I kept directing him toward the fireplace in hopes that our taxes wouldn't go up further because the kitchen has been updated (with permits, mind you).

I picked up the remote to the fireplace and turned it on for him. He lit up as if he'd just walked into the 21^st century... looking quite shocked that a fireplace could be turned on by remote.

Mr. Inspector never got closer than 5 feet from that fireplace. He did not make sure it was set properly into its framing, or that the wiring correct. He did not even look on the exterior wall for installation maladies.

Sure I could have complained, but then what would the city have done in retaliation? My thinking is ‘just blend in'.

So there you have it... $50 for the ‘inspection' and a 10% hike in my taxes this year (ok... that's not all from the fireplace, but it sure feels like it). The only thing I feel good about after this inspection is that the city can't point fingers at me if I end up with a faulty fireplace that burns down my house.

Now I realize that in my professional life I am not to give value to un-permitted additions, un-permitted finished basements, un-permitted converted garages, etc. etc., but I have to say, I understand where people might be reluctant to go to the city when they are quite capable of doing their job and the city worker might not be...

Please note that I have the utmost respect for inspectors and recommend them whole-heartedly to home owners even if they are purchasing a new construction property. I am just blowing steam about permits and one city inspector...

Posted by Sara Goodwin - Portland, Oregon Appraiser on 12/22/2007 11:16 AM

Comments (38)

inspections, permits, appraisal issues, government

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This post has been included in Oregon Real Estate News Multnomah County, OR Real Estate News
Post is included in group: Ask the Home Inspector
Post is included in group: Fixers, Flips, and Rehabs

38 Comments on Permits Schmermits

DEC

2007

Sara, the inspection process is in place for a reason. Not only could your house burn down, but, as you know, there are issues with carbon monoxide. While your fireplace may have been installed properly, think of those that might not have been that this inspector is missing. Please do the right thing and call the city to explain what happened. This gentleman needs to find other work. Somebody's life may just depend upon it! Beautiful fireplace, by the way!

Sara, I understand your unwillingness to stand out from the crowd but in matters of safety just make the call.

You're right Gregory - Having such limited experience with permitting, I got an immediate sour taste in my mouth with that one. I do need to give them a call for everyone's sake. Also, thanks for the fireplace comment!

A very good example why independent home inspections are so important. This type of inspection is so common with municipal inspections. Until the politics are removed from municipal inspections we will have this type of inspection work being done by the code police.

New homes are even worse, in many areas of the country. Those inspections are done many times by a waive from the inspectors truck window! As sad as it sounds, it is a daily occurrence. Many towns make a major part of their income from building permits. The builders know this and if the inspectors get too tough they let the mayor or supervisors know that they can move their operations to another city or town.

Bill - Thank you... you're right, I'll make the call

Scott- I am often more suspect of new construction than anything built between the 20s and 60s (and then there's the 70s...)

Hi Sara, I'm not sure I agree with these earlier comments. I think your original feelings may have been the better way to go. It's highly unlikely that your complaint will accomplish much in terms of this old inspector. But, it very easily could open a can of worms for you, either in past, current or future endeavors.

Good perspective Gregg (especially because you agree with my first thoughts :-) ), Thanks!

There's good and bad in every profession and trade.

BUT, when it comes to safety like this does, you oughta make the call.

You'll never know (whether you call or not) if it makes a difference, but the chances are better that it will change somones life.

DEC

2007

Erby is correct. If the fireplace is not installed correctly there could be some very serious and dangerous hazards. This isn't about complaining, it's about safety... your and someone else's down the road.

I must say that I'm certainly more concerned with my ancient upstairs wiring and the possible asbestos in my attic than my fireplace. But ya'll have convinced me ...

Sara this is why it is so important to have a Professional Home inspector .

AHJ's or municipal code inspectors examine systems only to a minimum standard even when they do their job properly.

Quality of workmanship is never even an after thought .

In Chicago The Daily Herald did a series on how there is a big shortage of Code inspectors in the Chicagoland area.

I realise your professional end of it is financial, but as you can see there is protection of people and property to concider.

Thank you Sara for bringing this to our attention.

Most code inspectors are in and out before you can blink an eye.

This is why I laugh, when a potential client asks if they need an inspection since the city inspects it anyway.

JAN

2008

Well, you know what they say! We're the "City That Works"!! Or sort of.... :))

Happy New Year You!!!

JAN

2008

wink wink, nudge nudge Jennifer (at one time I was joking around about naming my appraisal company that)

JAN

2008

Thank you for the the info. Very true...you often wonder what they are inspecting.

JAN

2008

In NJ, the city had the seller demolish a 2 story detached, heated garage with skylights. The seller had no permits.

Sara, listen carefully to Erby, Joseph, Bob and Scott (and me). Make the call. In my experience as a builder and dealing with inspectors for 30 years---the municipalities want to know, and most have ways of doing it anonymously if you are concerned about any type of "retaliation."

FEB

2008

Heck we don't need no stinkin permits where I live. I called the city to ask about getting a permit to install a half bath downstairs and the city told me I didn't need one as long as I wasn't changing the original footprint of the home. I have a finished walk up attic as well that also didn't require one. If you look at the records for my house online you'd be WAY off in square footage and half a bath short in the bathroom counts.

Kenneth J Miller

www.miller-appraisals.net

While I always get permits, I also submit my plans approved by a licensed engineer. I have had too many inspectors play games asking for upgrades they want that are not required under the code. The engineered plans stop that game dead in its tracks.

FEB

2008

Hi Vincent - Thanks for dropping in!

Peter - I would hope that the city at least inspected the converted garage post-construction before declaring it condemnable?

Charles - Thanks ... I will do that, but what about just a second opinion from another licensed contractor? I mean, should I really trust the city at this point?

Hey Kenneth - That's a very interesting point and I'd love to hear what other inspectors think about cities throughout the country that don't have the resources to have a city inspection department.

Jeffrey - That is an excellent point. I don't think I've ever had a project completed by one professional that wasn't berated or contested not to be up to code by another professional... even after the permits have been signed off on.

The quality of inspections for any municipality and especially Portland is sometimes subject to disgust. It is also not abnormal for Inspector's to get side tracked. The primary reason is that they often cover for each other. An inspector who normally covers Insulation for example and has limited knowledge about Fireplaces may be asked to cover that based on previous inspections.

Example: The case load says that there must be 100 inspections that day with only 10 inspectors to cover. Normally that would be 10 each. However after examining the inspection requests they find that Fourty of the requests have had multiple problems on previous inspections. Hence the more qualified individuals that specialize in that request will most likely cover those problem files while the remainder of the requests may get devided up between the rest of the inspector's. Those inspectors will show up to complete the cycle of paperwork required and will normally only take a cursory look to see if there are any blatant problems.

In addition often times the work being done is by an outside Contractor and not the home owner. Once again the city has knowledge of past inspections by these companies. Those that are known to do the work to higher than code standards are often given only a cursory glimpse where as problem contractors will enjoy the full monte so to speek.

Congrats on feature.

FEB

2008

Thank you, Herb - These are good points and it's understandable when city inspectors are overloaded. There is little they can do about that until the city allots them more money for additional inspectors.

MAR

2008

The devil is the permit you don't get.

I'm in agreement with the value of independent, professional home inspectors though. Never trust a government body to do the job of a professional.

MAR

2008

That is sorta like some of the electrical inspectors around here (used to be an electrician). They walk in the door (if they made it out of their trucks) and glance left/right, and say 'good day'. That is if they didnt just call on the phone and say.... "how deep did you bury it?" US- "2ft" Him- "ok, you passed". HAHA What a joke. Not that we did a bad job, we took our work seriously, professionally, and were proud of it. Maybe after awhile the inspector just knew the kind of work we did and had faith in us.

MAR

2008

Kent - I hear you there.... ("The devil is the permit you don't get.")being an appraiser, we have to break the news to folks all the time that unfortunately that extra addition or third bathroom they installed has to have a permit before most lenders will give them any money -

Matt - It seems like a lot of contractors prefer that over the inspectors that hold up a project because there is a new code change that nobody informed the contractor on....

I like how the government gets paid on both ends with the permit process - On one end, the contractors, electricians, plumbers, ect must be licensed prior to applying for the permits (in most cases) and on the other end, once the improvements are made, it can significantly affect your taxes. I think safety is the last thing on many city inspectors minds... Brilliant, really...

Are there any city inspectors on board here?

Sarah if there were, they might be ashamed to admit it.

MAR

2008

That could be, Bob - But honestly, I don't think that they would be interested in being an AR participant at all...

I feel bad for these folks.

SEP

2008

I do nothing without permits. It's simply not worth the potential porblems and, once they catch you doing somethign without permits, teh inpectors will be brutal from that day forward. Play the game, make nice and pay the fee and all will be well.

Hi Andy -

I'm not sure if any other state has proposed or passed this, but just think if this were on the ballot in NJ. Would you let it slide if the inspectors had no say in the matter? Or have you seen as many hack job do-it-yourself improvements as the rest of us?

NOV

2008

Sara, some people may say, "What the heck are you complaining about? The fireplace passed the inspection." I think that what you are dealing with is called a conscience. Most people would have done a dance after the inspector left, thinking they got a bargain or pulled the wool over someone's eyes. What I have seen with many inspectors is they have been "kicked in the teeth" so many times for doing their jobs, they basically just go along, to get along. If you complained about this guy, more than likely the people you complain to, are the same people who caused the problem to start with but you have to always do the right thing.

In NYC there are alot of uncover sting operations on going to catch inspectors. Some by the media and some by the Building Department, if the inspector accept a cup of coffee he or she will be fired.

NOV

2008

Hi Jerry - My friend will be finalizing a 9 day stay at the hospital tomorrow from smoke inhalation that he suffered due to a house fire with bad wiring. I'm not saying it was due to a hack wiring job, I think it was just old and unmaintained. Either way, it makes you think...

Frank - That's amazing that they are doing sting operations. And it's sad that they feel they have to. I must admit, I would have offered the inspector at our house a coffee if I thought that might keep him there a couple more minutes.

NOV

2008

Since housing has slowed down, many inspectors seem to have extra time on their hands and seem to cite the oddest items. You came out not too bad. I have heard some horrifying stories from rehabbers.

NOV

2008

Hello Frank - I have heard more horror stories about the 'over-inspection' than the 'under-inspection'. That's why I found it odd that the inspector that came out from the city barely set foot in the living room.

I do not know why the inspector that came to inspect your new gas fireplace. Never step foot in your living room to do the inspection it is baffling to me. The first thing I would have ask you is do you have a carbon monoxide detector in your living room, and then I would have started my inspection. In NYC we have had 3 cranes fall and people died, the inspectors wrote up the cranes but nothing was done. Now their are special investigation to see what happen.

SEP

2009

It really depends on who you get and what mood they are in. Sometimes they are in a great mood and would pass anything and other days they are not. I see the same with pest inspectors, sometimes they are in and out in minutes, 5min=$125, not bad.

JAN

2010

My extremely old pool inspector flagged my outdoor grill for being too close to the pool. It was a new grill and we just took it out of the box and set it on the floor next to the pool so we could take the old one off which was about 10 feet away! He didn't bother to look around, or take the time to use some common sense and ask himself why anyone would want to grill on the ground????

That just goes to show just how "observant" some inspectors are!

I feel your pain,

Cody SperberAKA Klever Investor

True true, Frank. We have a couple of bridges in town that are seriously in danger of collapsing (one I literally won't drive over unless I have no other choice). Everyone knows of the danger, in fact there's a group that often sends surveys and polls out to the public to ask 'how important is fixing the bridge?' and yet no one has prioritized it over the other many pot-hole filled activities that are in progress.

James ~ Having worked for the county in the past, I feel confident in saying that good moods are rare, and I was happy to deal with this happy county worker for a change.

So Cody... you're saying this is not even an installed/permanent grill? I suppose it's best to be thorough, aye?

SEP

Well you have had some interesting comments. I am all about safety so better to be certain it is installed correctly. I would call them back and make them send out someone who knows what they are looking for.

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Sara Goodwin - Portland, Oregon Appraiser

Portland, OR

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