We're so accustomed to having our intelligence insulted by politicians that we rarely complain about the dumbed down worldview that we’re spoon-fed by both sides of the political aisle. The partisan mudslinging that we’re subjected to these days makes it hard to imagine a world in which candidates might campaign by voicing nuanced, well articulated views on the complex issues facing our country. That’s too much to ask for, but at least we get to watch the primaries, which offer up the entertaining spectacle of Democrats savaging fellow Democrats and Republicans bashing Republicans as they fight for their respective nominations.

But there are a couple of issues that I think we should all hold our candidates to a higher standard. One of these is immigration reform.

Even the language of immigration reform is fraught with semantic landmines. Do you talk about “illegal aliens” or “undocumented workers”? Do you open the discussion with allusions to Ellis Island or by invoking 9-11. Is this about security or fairness. Economics or the American way?

But it's safe to say that we're all interested in the state of our economy and national security – these are two tides that lift all boats. And as real estate investors – we’re more interested than most in how the housing market weathers the current storm, not to mention how we operate as landlords and as consumers of labor intensive services like roofing, landscaping and construction.

More specifically – as politicians target employment, benefits, and housing as keys to the illegal immigration question, some municipalities have proposed legislation which would hold landlords accountable for policing the residency status of their tenants. These are bad laws.

The reality of the situation is that it is difficult to take a complex issue like immigration reform and turn it into an effective sound bite, so it’s rare that we see a candidate discuss immigration with any subtlety or insight. But when I hear anyone address immigration I’m listening for a couple of key things…

Does the candidate acknowledge the complexity of the issue, and our society’s complicity in creating it? George W. Bush has lately become fond of invoking our society’s dependence on foreign oil. This is a step in the right direction (although the solutions proposed are all wrong – that’s another post) but as a society we’ve yet to confront the fact that we’re also addicted to imported labor – especially when it comes to difficult, physically intensive, cheap, dangerous work. When I walk into a construction site, a rehab project, a house that’s being cleaned for showing, or a landscaping job I without fail see a group of workers made up almost exclusively of immigrants. Always. Granted, this fact is exacerbated by the fact that I’m in Houston, but many readers will find this to be a familiar observation.

I live in a suburb where the residents, generally speaking, are more inclined to lean towards the Tom Tancredo school of immigration reform than the Hillary Clinton view. But if you walk this neighborhood on any weekday you’ll see the streets dotted with landscaping and housekeeping crews made up of employees who are in the country illegally. It's interesting that the "Assault on America" philosophy of immigration reform is so successfully sold to those socially conservative families who every week enjoy a beautifully manicured lawn for $35 a pop - courtesy of the invaders.

 Does the candidate appeal primarily to fear? In recent years folks who live in my neighborhood here in Houston have been subjected to some of the foulest, ugliest campaigning I can remember as Hubert Vo (D) and Talmadge Heflin (R) squared off for a seat in the Texas State House of Representatives. They both took the low road on numerous occasions on various issues; one of them was immigration. This ad to the right (actual scan of a flier which landed in my mailbox) won the prize for the crassest. According to Heflin, his opponent was so uninterested in the general public safety that if he won then Osama himself would eventually stroll into a local Texas Department of Motor Vehicles and get a drivers’ license.

Heflin lost the election in a very tight race, and I like to think that there were at least a few voters, like me, who were pushed into the opponent’s camp because they were angry about having their intelligence insulted.

Does the candidate talk about people? Immigration is a human issue. Immigration is about people. I think most of us would agree on how we should treat an illegal alien who slips into the country to sell drugs. But how do we treat an undocumented worker who has spent the past twenty years toiling in a Tyson chicken processing plant, paying social security, contributing to his community, and raising his kids who were born here and are now in high school?

If we were to wave a magic wand and magically deport all 12 million people residing in our country illegally, every restaurant in Houston, San Antonio, Los Angeles, Las Vegas, Miami, and San Diego would immediately close. Our crops would rot on the vine. Poultry and meat would disappear from our supermarkets. Hotels would shut down. Residential level construction work will grind to a halt.

Some of these industries would eventally recover – but at a great increase in cost to the consumer.

So ask youself: is the candidate presenting the issue to me in all its complexity?

Related Posts:

 

 

95 Comments on Immigration and Real Estate

DEC
26
2007
144,052 Points 1 Featured Post Outside Blog Hit Router
Great topic to touch on Christopher. You make so very valuable points. I have been struggling with whom I shall vote for in 2008 and this is going to be a big subject. Thanks for sharing your insights and making me think about this with more "Complexity". Happy New Year to you.
12:41pm • #1
579,647 Points 34 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Hit Router

There is a lot of complexity, and everyone seems to think that the side they are on is the right side.  There are a lot of inaccurate portrayals and terms that are floated by one side or the other. 

But, we need to find elected leaders that are ready to take on the issue honestly.  Using PC terms like "undocumented worker" or pushing schemes to offer amnesty... but saying that it isn't... won't solve the problem.   

1:57pm • #2

Ouch Touch Christopher - you are touching on a topic that most either don't understand how complex it is and forget about the human factor. The fact is majority of immigrants in this country work and pay taxes, majority  are not criminals and the number  one factor of job loss in this country is not immigrant but rather company shipping the jobs oversea. In my area there are having been laws gear towards undocumented immigrants -my personal feelings is that most of the folks making these law are afraid of not being majority anymore- and most always think just  of a speciific group when they say undocumented immgrant I'm quite sure if perception of the undocumented immigrant are from western or eastern europe this  will be a completely differernt issue....They are human beings and everyone deserve respect and diginity......  Is just a joke when folks think deporting 12million is going to solve the problem---- I agree with you Chrisopher in that criminals ,drug dealers that are undocumented immgrants should get any sympathy- but what do you do with working people that have been in this country for years paying taxes, paying to social security, have kids here, don't have criminal records. What should be done??????? Just wave a magic wand???

1:59pm • #3
Thank you for this post Christopher...as a Hispanic and US Citizen it is hard when you see people talking about the subject from such a narrow point of view.  It is a very difficult situation with many sides and shades of gray.  I agree that it is hard for our country to continue to receive hundreds of thousands of undocumented workers each year, yet I don't think that taking people from their homes, deporting them and leaving American kids behind to fend for themselves and rely on welfare to be the solution either. 
Giselle Taminez
2:14pm • #4
145,156 Points 2 Featured Posts Outside Blog
Ouch.  I think the idea of making landlords responsible for whether tenant or citizens is a little wierd.  Landlords in general are not trained to check for documentation.  Throwing this responsiblity on the average person that owns a duplex seems like a mistake.
2:27pm • #5
347,837 Points 15 Featured Posts Outside Blog

OK - legal immigrant here. I have been going through the process for almost seven years now and it has cost me thousands and thousands of Dollars in fees to the Government. Does immigration need reform? Well yes it does in part. It should be easier and cheaper. But there are many things we need to discuss here.

Let's start with the laws already on our books that are not being enforced. This is plainly ridiculous and needs to stop immediately. Companies need to be punished for employing people who have BROKEN THE LAW OF THE UNITED STATES. Yes I know that's in caps, but this basic fact seems to be something a lot of people wish to ignore. Well we can't pick and choose which laws we obey and which we don't. We need to enforce our laws. Period.

Deportation of more than 20 million people (12 million? You are WAYYYY into history my friend with that number) is also not an option - but we need to know who they are and where they are. None of this is relevant if we don't seal the borders completely. Please note I used the plural. I don't care where you come from or what your ethnic background is. You want to live here, then do as I did and as millions have done before you. Stand in line!

We need to look at the exploitation of those who are already here. There are people renting our beds - and I mean literally just beds - in eight hour shifts. There are workers being paid WAY below minimum wage.

Enforce the laws. The country would not grind to a halt as this post suggests, but we would force the companies out there to comply with the law as well. Wages would go up and unemployment would go down. Would I have to pay more for my salad? Probably, but it is a small price to pay for living in a responsible society.

Finally - security. I truly dread to think just how many terrorists have crossed our borders because of the failed policies of numerous administrations from both political parties. But they are here and they mean you harm. They want you dead. Make no mistake. The sooner we seal the borders, the safer we will become - even though we will have to deal with those already here.

2:34pm • #6
2 Featured Posts
You make a very valid point in you last paragraph. I am so tired of hearing about people being deported over paperwork issues, people who have been working and raising families for years, and being productive members of society. The whole system is wack, and I have not seen a candidate yet who has a plan that will work.
2:55pm • #7
The current political landscape is ruled by !!!FEAR!!!. It is a problem that more people don't try to cut through the simple ploys of those trying to scare and look deeper into the issues.
3:12pm • #8
288,803 Points 52 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Hit Router

I'm voting for Simon the legal immigrant.

I've had clients that are immigrants too; they all stood in line and came over the legal way.

I don't really care how hard any illegals work and pay to social security (btw, how do they do that without a social security number?) or anything else.

Step up, get in line, get legal, or get gone.

I'm part Cherokee indian. Look what a mess those illegal immigrants the Pilgrims made in our land when they first came in with no green cards or visas. It's been going downhill ever since. ;-)

4:29pm • #9
111,290 Points 10 Featured Posts Outside Blog

I have to agree with Simon. If you are here illegally, then you are breaking the law. Illegal means illegal. It's an insult to those that have stood in line and done it right, to have 10 Million granted legal status at the wave of a pen. Yes, reform needs to be made and it won't happen over night. But contrary to some comments, there are tons of illegals who are being paid under the table and NOT paying taxes.

A few years ago we were rehabbing a house in Florida when Hurricane Ivan decided to come through. We hired a contractor to remove some damaged plaster out of three rooms. Two days later when we walked into the house, we could see to the other side of the home (this was a 4000 SF house). Every wall was removed and taken down to the bare studs, and the 10 workers inside were of another nationality. When we asked the contractor what happened, he claimed ignorance. We finally got it out of him that not one of the workers spoke English. He also begged us not to report him to the city as every worker was an illegal and he was paying them under the table. In the background, a couple workers were talking about us, thinking we couldn't understand them. Little did they know my husband speaks their language...they were cursing us and calling us white scum. Because this contractor had hired people who had no business being in construction, their little oops on our house cost us an additional $10,000 in materials.

So, there are some illegals who are working in professions they have no business in, or experience in for that matter. Those are the ones that need to be taken care of. Yes, there are millions not in this group, but how do you weed out the bad from the good? The only way is to make rules that apply to everyone. 

 I would REALLY like to see the Democrats and Republican candidates address the Immigration issue with actual examples of how they are going to fix it, not just say we need reform. But I doubt any will actually take a detailed stand. It's an issue they are afraid to tackle because they might alienate voters.

4:35pm • #10
278,642 Points 29 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog
Christopher, having lived in Southern California most of my adult life and served as a board member on a fair housing council and a Latino advocacy non-profit, I truly agree this is much more complex than most understand.  But, short of experiencing it first or second hand, how does all of the information get across to Americans who are only looking at the big picture?  One thing that I think all Realtors will agree upon is that Landlords should not be held responsible for the residency status of their tenants. 
4:52pm • #11
347,837 Points 15 Featured Posts Outside Blog
No Diane, as a Realtor I do not agree with your premise. Landlords need to check documentation just as everyone else does. If a particular city's ordinance calls for Landlords to look at ID and social security cards and those landlords do not, then they too are breaking the law and they too should face the consequences. What is it about the word "illegal" that people do not understand?
5:29pm • #12

This is a hugely complex issue.  I used to feel angered when I would have to push option 2 on the phone to hear the balance at my bank in English.  Now it is a small annoyance.

 I learned a lesson last year about immigrants from a nine year old girl whom my daughter was friends with.  She spoke both English and Spanish and translated for her parents whose english consisted of a few words here and there. 

 This girl, Maria, lived in a shelter with her family.  The vice president of our school would drive her to school and then back to the shelter in the afternoons.  Yet, she was appreciative of everything that she had.  She had dreams and inspirations, was a good student and a great friend to my daughter.  She even showed me the shelter she lived at once and boasted about the playground it had. 

 It made me think that I, a single black mom with three children, should know better.  Maria really opened my eyes to some of the reality of immigration.  I don't want the drug dealers, but if I had been born under less fortunate circumstances and had a family that lived in squalor, wouldn't I try everything I could to make a better life for myself and my children, even if it meant going around the system to get there.  The answer is a resounding yes.

How can the government hold landlords accountable to police the immigration problem?  There has to be a better way. 

I would add that some of the jobs that illegal immigrants do are not only important to our economy and our way of life, in some cases they are jobs that others who are here, legal residents, would not take. 

 So what is the real problem?

Rebecca Levinson
5:34pm • #13
354,228 Points 9 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog
This is a complex problem and it will take some careful planning and thought to solve.  There are lots of points of view and we must consider what is best moving forward.
5:38pm • #14
285,692 Points Outside Blog
Before i came into real estate i spent thirty years in restaurants mostly as a chef.My industry was ruined a a career option. Restaurants are a cash business by and large and most of the illegal workers are paid cashyou can also forget about things like overtime or just about any other labor law. If you complain your told go ahed leave I'll get three people to work for what I,m paying you.I used to work in a rather affluent neughborhood and used to joke that if every illegal immigrant was deported it would mean the resident would have to cook their own food clean their own house mow their own lawn and watch their own kids. None of which I think would be the end of the world. I get tired of hereing that its not possible to deport that many people. All you have to do is put some of the people hiring them in jail and the landlords too. Then when people realize there would be no jobs and no place to live and most would leave on their own.Not to mention how it would help health care not having those 20 million uninsured patients.I also here they do the jobs that americans won't. Well I say Americans will do any job if it will support their family if you don't agree i point out the coal minors.
5:44pm • #15
347,837 Points 15 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Rebecca - first of all there are no jobs Americans won't do. There are plenty of jobs Americans won't do for the wages that are paid to illegal immigrants. That is called exploitation - it is in fact a form of slavery.

You say you don't want drug dealers - well what are you going to do to stop them/ What about terrorists?

Finally of course I too would try everything to get my family a better life if I was living in the conditions you describe. That doesn't change the fact that if caught I know that I would have broken the law. I also have to ask if you are suggesting simply throwing open the borders and allowing everyone in. Just how much welfare do you think is out there? We can't simply print more money. The country is already broke.

5:45pm • #16
288,803 Points 52 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Hit Router

Here's a prediction; no hearts and minds are going to be changed by this post.

If, as you say, illegal immigrants take jobs legal residents will not take then who was doing these jobs before the illegals came along? Just curious.

I have rental properties and I have no problem doing a background check  in order to improve my odds of getting a tenant who will A. Pay the rent, and B. hopefully because he has good references, not destroy the place. Not that tough to also see if the prospective renters are legal at the same time.

5:46pm • #17
342,718 Points 5 Featured Posts Outside Blog

border crossing houlton maine,canada,new brunswick,mooers realty

Don't get the general vibe that politicians or John Q Citizen as a whole is worried about immigration.  They all have family members that came over the same way!  I live in Houlton Maine on the US Canada border and back and forth traffic is plentiful and we all enjoy the international sharing whether it be at a youth hockey game or enjoying the dollar buying power when the exchange rate is high either way.

 

5:49pm • #18

The current immigration issue will not go away because we elect a new president. This issue is extremely too complicated and getting worst with the political rhetoric being spewed by the candidates, main stream media, blogs and talk radio. Therefore, pick a lot more issues (in addition to immigration) to decide which candidate will do the less harm to our country.

Immigration Agency: Name change from INS to USCIS but it still stinks

Changing the name of the immigration agencies is not going to make a difference if they are being run by the same antiquated policies. The newly named USCIS smell just as rotten as the original agency (INS), so we need to start here. They are still using the same policies and procedures of interviewing and evaluating the applications since most of our grandparents were born. The USCIS staff needs sensitivity training because they treat interviewees with disrespect and arrogance.

A local Southern NJ INS officer was suspended without pay for two weeks for insulting the client and his representative in the public waiting room. The only reason this disciplinary action was taken was because the local US Representative was able to verify the actions through other eye witnesses. But I have heard of other horror stories about agents intimidating clients (too scared to report abusive behavior by agency representatives).  And this is for LEGAL IMMIGRATION. Therefore, legal immigration needs a revamping of its system and personnel as a part of any Comprehensive Immigration Reform.

Boarder Patrol: North and South - East and West

Illegal boarder crossings conversations usually end up "South of the Boarder", while legally migrating terrorist fly into our international airports. Let us not forget that all the terrorist of 911 entered our country legally. So the war against illegal boarder crossings has nothing to do with terrorism.

But unfortunately, 911 has been a "hook" for a group of citizens with a legitimate concern to "hang" their issues on in order for their fight against illegal boarder crossing to be brought to the eyes of the greater public.

Before 911, the anti illegal boarder crossing groups were not getting anywhere from a national perspective. Now, they could scare the rest of us across the country to think that terrorist would cross the desserts of Mexico and Texas to avoid a blush first class seat on a 747 into New York Kennedy Airport or LAX.

I don't deny there is a serious illegal boarder crossing issue in this country but it has little to do with terrorist. It has a lot to do with local safety issues that have been ignored for decades by the federal government. And as mentioned in previous Blog stream above, illegal boarder crossing has little to do with employment and more to do with the exportation jobs to other countries.

Drivers' License - to do, or not to do, this is the question

In my area, I have seen drivers' licenses from various other states being used by individuals living in my state, NJ. So when they get stopped by the police, the driver shows a license from North Carolina, Motor Registration and Auto Insurance from PA, but when the officer asks for the driver's home address, the driver gives a NJ address. Oh, well - there goes the whole problem with issuing driver's license without a federal standard in the process.

Deportation: convicted criminals should not stay in the USA

I don't know why good community residents that are working, paying their taxes and making sure their children are in school and not the street corners selling drugs be concerned about ICE coming to deport them while they are quietly eating dinner. This doesn't happen as portrayed by pro-immigration reform activist.

The deportation efforts by ICE are for men and women that have been convicted of a crime or have decide to violate a warrant for arrest on a pending investigation.

Landlords: smoke screen, and smoke detectors

Most landlords don't monitor the smoke detectors in their rental properties but we want them to monitor the citizenship of all their tenants. This is merely a smoke screen by tenant advocacy groups that are concern that the rental prices have sky rocketed because families from other countries are willing to pay a higher then market value prices for an apartment. Therefore, making it difficult for highly indebted renters to get a below market price for the apartment or house.

Personally, I don't want my township civil service employee questioning the residents of my town about their citizenship? But I do want them to visit each rental unit at least once a year to make sure there is a fully functional smoke detectors in the unit.

Ignorant Candidates for President - other issues

So get some other issues to help you decide which person is better for the presidency because none of the candidates have a real solution for the immigration concerns in America. It is going to require serious study and true introspect about the policies and procedures being utilized by the USCIS and ICE for us to begin developing real reform with immigration in America.

5:55pm • #19
274,748 Points 15 Featured Posts Outside Blog
Way too complex an issue for me to solve. I would however close the border now and set some rules for new arrivals. We may want to spread them out across the world. We may want more nurses and professionals. Needs change with times. I enjoy doing my own grass. The drugs coming across our borders is killing many or at least in my city that is directly related to drugs and lack of jobs for young blacks. The year is not over and over 200 have been killed. New Orleans is not a big town, less than 300k at the moment. Common sense says we need to be more proactive.
6:06pm • #20
579,647 Points 34 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Hit Router

I agree that landlords are not the ones that should be on the front lines.  Especially since they aren't actually allowed to ask if the potential renter is actually legal... nor is an employer.  In fact, if an applicant presents a SS card, the potential employer isn't allowed to ask the SS Administration if the card (and number) are real and legal. 

BTW, the US admits more legal immigrants that any other country in the world... and IIRC, more than the EU combined (despite the EU consisting of 500 million people, while the US is 300 million).  

No minds will be changed by this post (as the point has been argued to death in a variety of venues), but one thing to keep in mind is this...

If a person broke into your house (or came in invited but refused to leave when asked), would it be any less of a crime if they did some laundry there, or cleaned the bathroom every once in a while?  People that violate the borders are violating the law.  Letting people stay that violate the borders is basically allowing them to benefit from breaking the law. 

I know that I am pretty hardline about this, but I believe in laws.  I respect (and truly admire) those that choose to come to this country, both legally and illegally.  I think this is the greatest place in the world to live.  However, I don't respect the action of breaking the laws to get what one wants.  

Sorry, no nuance or complexity to it. 

6:55pm • #21
4 Featured Posts

Christopher

Needless to say it is an extremely complicated subject, where as a Hispanic born in the US, I've tended to sometimes veer towards looking at the law as the initial basis of what does or doesn't make sense. Truth is, there are far too many complicated issues that drive being able to make a conscious yet compassionate decision. Take a look at a recent story I did with MSNBC regarding this very topic.....I can't begin to tell you how much email, hate mail, and horrible phone calls we received on this one.

http://activerain.com/blogsview/278828/Are-Illegals-to-Blame

Enjoy, and please feel free to critique.

7:08pm • #22
288,803 Points 52 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Hit Router

A slowing economy and some modest enforcement efforts seen to be having a positive effect on the problem.

"SOME KAUS-STYLE ANECDOTAGE ON IMMIGRATION: You don't seem to see as many Mexicans around Knoxville as a few months ago, and I noticed that the landscaping outfit that does the common areas in my neighborhood -- whose workers were all Mexican as recently as this summer -- became kind of scarce for a few weeks and is now back with workers who are all quite obviously non-Mexican." Could this be related to the jailing of a local businessman for immigration violations?

And this story Illegal immigrants "self deport" as woes mount

This tends to make a believer out of anyone committing illegal acts whether wading the Rio Grande or hiring those that do.

Restaurateur gets jail time

Chinese restaurant owner hired Mexican illegal immigrants

A federal judge on Monday rejected the "everybody else is doing it" defense argued by an attorney on behalf of a restaurateur who staffed his business with illegal immigrants.

7:40pm • #23
1 Featured Post
This is a complex issue that will not be solved for a very long time. There are laws and they are being ignored. Who decides which laws we can ignore? I am a landlord and I know that I am not qualified to enforce immigration laws.
7:48pm • #24

Christopher:

You created a lot of controversy. I believe that you present very valid points. I'm with you 100%. There are many people that have been watching Lou Dobbs, the hate monger that has created this fear about illegal aliens or undocumented workers. !!!Lots of terrorists are crossing our borders through the South!!! There is a smart response from Eliud Gautier that points out that all the 9/11 terrorists came into this country legally.  They even took flying lessons legally. I have had the opportunity to interact with many, many hard working Mexican migrant workers that are responsible parents, responsible citizens, they pay taxes, have to work two jobs to feed their families and are in this country undocumented. The drug dealers, the mafia people live in fancy suburbs in Mexico City in multimillion dollar penthouses. The undocumented that I know are house cleaners, hotel maids, cooks, gardeners, construction workers, car washers and farm workers. They are nice people. Decent. They came to this country because Mexico does not provide enough jobs. I also agree that employers that give jobs to undocumented workers take full advantage of their undocumented status by paying sub-standard living wages and if these employers are forced to terminate them, we will all pay for it. We will have to pay more at restaurants, hotels, construction work, car washes and food.   Probably that's what we need to do to stop the servitude.

An immigration policy should be implemented. People that have been working in this country and paying taxes for 5 years or more should be given the opportunity to legalize their status. People with less than 5 years should be given a working permit for a year. You can not kick out workers with families that have made this country their home. Politicians are afraid of dealing with the issue. Employers always took advantage of immigrants since Ellis Island. They are the key to this problem. Well, that's my opinion.

Isaac Bensussen-www.besthomesinlajolla.com

 

 

7:48pm • #25

Christopher,

 Great post and wonderful topic to discuss. This is definately a topic I need to learn more about and stay on top of. Being in the Washington DC metro area, we have tons of immigrants and probably every nationality so it is definately something that is constantly on the forefront.

happy Holidays!

 

Josh Ross-www.jdrrealty.net

7:57pm • #26
343,554 Points Outside Blog
Interesting post. There are many sides to the issue.
11:58pm • #27
DEC
27
2007
Wow what a prickly subject to tackle. Well Done. Maybe one of the answers would be to make legal immigration easier for the people the country needs. I am a LEGAL ALIEN and boy do I have a tough time. I am here legally with a Social Security number but I am still treated like a second class citizen. Lets welcome those who come here legally and encourage those we want to come via the right channels.
12:21am • #28
2 Featured Posts

Good Post.

We even have this issue way up here in Alaska.  Illegal immigrants are often flown here to work on fish processing plants.  They are also in the construction industry in Alaska.

There really are two issues.  What do we do about the people who are already here???

and

What do we do about the people continuing to cross the border illegaly??

I see those as two seperate issues. I really don't have the answers but I think we should at least try to control our borders first, then figure out what to do about the people already here.

 

2:29am • #29
224,760 Points 2 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog
IT's a really tough issue but one that absolutely must be addressed and corrected in some fashion.  What is happening to our health care and schools because of the illegal situation is not sustainable.  Sure haven't heard much from our politicians that makes sense to me.
7:13am • #30
2 Featured Posts

We are all people, and we all put our pants on the same way. The world is changing at an exponential pace, and what is viewed as "traditional" today will be gone tomorrow.

Instead of more walls, what if there were no walls? 

7:37am • #31
4 Featured Posts

Does the candidate talk about people? Immigration is a human issue. Immigration is about people. I think most of us would agree on how we should treat an illegal alien who slips into the country to sell drugs. But how do we treat an undocumented worker who has spent the past twenty years toiling in a Tyson chicken processing plant, paying social security, contributing to his community, and raising his kids who were born here and are now in high school?

Fact is, both illegal immigrants have broken the law the second the set foot on US soil, both should be treated the same way - both should be deported. What each of them does for a living after illegally entering the US has nothing to do with the fact that both broke the law. Working in a poultry factory and raising kids doesn't deminish the fact that a law was broken.

I'm a legal immigrant. I stood in line, I paid the fees, I gave my fingerprints, I did everything INS asked of me. Being a legal resident in the US means something to me, applying for US citizenship means something to me. It's a previleg and it has to be earned, like most things in life.

Last but not least, we are living in a past 9/11 world. We CANNOT afford to let people (meaning anyone from any country)  enter the US undocumented. All the "Let's be friends" chatter is nice and heartwarming but in the real world we are at war.

7:47am • #32
238,343 Points 5 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Christopher,

You are right that this is a complex issue. Personally, for the good of our nation I would like to see an immigration bill passed that would require all the illegials here now to register within 30 days(all that fail to register to be deported) and be issued a green card with the understanding that they are now paying taxes like the rest of us. Then, give them a way to attain citizenship within say 5 years if they continue working, paying taxes and are fine outstanding contributers to our society.

If we deport all the illegial immigrants now, it will make the sub-prime mess actually look not so bad in comparison to the trouble that we will have with our economy.

And, looking on the human side of this, these people (for the most part) just want to feed and provide for their families like the rest of us. How many of you reading this have been displaced from a job that you really wanted but a Mexican illegial got?

Close the border completely and stop the illegial immigration but turn the illegials here now into tax paying (hope to be citizens soon). Can you imagine the contribution to our economy if all the illegials here now that are working suddenly start paying taxes?

  

9:35am • #33
117,746 Points 2 Featured Posts Outside Blog

I come from a family of immigrants. A family who came here legally from Italy and Ireland. They came here for a better life and worked hard. When they got here they learned 2 things quickly, The language and how to get an education. Those are the 2 things missing in our current crop of immigrants. They are not coming here to become Americans. They come make some money, send a lot of it back home and don't pay for as much as they use ie Emergency Rooms at Hospitals, Schools and Social Services.

Most of the workers in farming & construction are working on 1099 income and report no taxes. When they are on hourly they claim 9 dependants. 1 below the Federal limit before you have to prove your exemptions.

I know that deporting 12 million + illegals is impossible but we need a new system. One that is fair for those who are trying to become citizens, paying taxes and schooling their children and getting rid of those who are here to take from us, not pay taxes, substitute our Hospitals for a family physician and overrun our schools.

1:03pm • #34
Great post Christopher... People need to think about the overall success of the country (not just looking at the problem from a personal point of view) As you can see, we need more discussion on this issue..Have a great day....and Happy Holidays...
1:34pm • #35

What a subject to tackle at this time, Christmas just passed we are getting ready to start a new year we should be in a cheerful mood, but you are right. This country was build by immigrants and people need to realize that. We enjoy countless benefits thanks to the immigrants, affordable fresh products, cheep housing, just to name a couple of those benefits. This is a subject worthy of discussion no matter what side you are in. But I believe we need to be open to dialogue on a civilized matter, this situation has to be deal with very carefully there is a lot at stake, countless families that are being slash in half, kid being separated from their parents, people that have been raised here since kid are being sent to countries they don't know cultures they haven't even dreamt about.

Here I go, this is a subject that is berry dear to my heart, my parents came from Mexico and gave me and my siblings a better life, pero bueno.

God Bless!

Fidencio Marquez
3:33pm • #36
347,837 Points 15 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Maybe I need to clarify some things here.

This country was indeed built on the backs of immigrants. LEGAL immigrants.

I don't blame those seeking better lives, I blame our Government for not enforcing our own laws

The people here and the border and two separate issues.

Hope that helps!

9:35pm • #37
DEC
28
2007

I don't know about you all but this seems to be a more broader PRESIDENTIAL issue then abortion and same sex marriage for conservatives; and national health care and carbon credits for liberals.

The IOWA primaries are in less then a week and NJ is in Feb. 5th - and what is everybody talking about - IMMIGRATION. But just like abortion and national health care - it will be debated for decades and little action.

Hence the growing problem of local government entities developing local immigration ordinances that conflict with state and fedral laws. As an example, we have the Riverside, NJ ordinance against businesses employing illegal immigrants and landlords renting to the same.

Eventually, it had already cost the town $100,000 (township taxes) and it was going to cost the township residents another $1,000,000 before it saw the day of light in the Supreme Court. The residents decided to cut their losses and rescind all these ordinances forcing regular American citizens to report on their neighbors if they suspected illegal immigrants working in local shops or renting neighborhood homes.

Could you imagine a township official - trained to be a housing inspector - knocking at your door while you are having dinner to askyou if your cousin by marriage that happens to be living in your second floor apartment - and happens to look different from the rest of the neighborhood - if he is an illegal immigrant as reported by your pain in the butt neighbor that has been angry at you because you cut his tree branch that hung over your fence 20 years ago.

If you don't think this will happen - you live in a fantasy world. So, Yes - something needs to happen but these local ordinances are not going to work. They are only going to create surmounting animosity between neighbors.

Then you have the local rapist and child molester targeting children of illegal immigrants because these criminals know that if the illegal immigrants report this crime - they could get deported and the family could be separated for ever.

So you see, do you think that any of the Presidential candidates are thinking about this local issue right now - NO. they are trying to capitalized on the death of a former Prime Minister from a foreign country.

9:41am • #38
347,837 Points 15 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Eliud - I think you are being way too simplistic. I also don't think anyone is trying to cash in on Bhutto's death - merely pointing out that the world is more dangerous because of it.

As for what needs to happen - our laws need to be enforced. They already exist!! Local ordinances are being introduced because those other laws are being ignored - and yes they WILL work. 

We live in a strange place right now where ILLEGAL immigrants are able to obtain loans. This is clearly NUTS! And who is warning these people (who are routinely exploited) that when they sell these homes, 10% of the sales price MUST go to the IRS because they are foreign nationals? Probably no one because that would probably mean they would not buy.

This is indeed a simple issue. Enforce our laws. Punish the companies. Jail the CEOs and the jobs will go away. Once the jobs go away the people will go home. 

9:55am • #39
Great blog!  Those of us who live in border states are probably more aware of illegals than others.  I am from Tucson.  The only part of your blog that I disagree with is that the illegals are paying social security.  How are they paying into a system if they don't have a number.  If they do have a number, it was gotten illegally!  If we do have a guest worker program, we need a way of keeping track of who they are are and where they are and what they are doing. 
Barbara Ayres
3:03pm • #40

Barbara:

Billions of dollars are in suspense in the Social Security coffers, from contributions made to the Social Security Administration by undocumented alliens with invented social security numbers. Of course, these contributions can not be allocated since the numbers do not match any Social Security accounts. These billions are probably being used to pay for retirement benefits for millions of retirees drawing Social Security Benefits or, at least, to draw some interest income. I do not foresee these billions just sitting idle in the Social Security Administration Bank Accounts.

Isaac Bensussen-www.besthomesinlajolla.com

9:20pm • #41
347,837 Points 15 Featured Posts Outside Blog
$billions of dollars? Really? Just how many illegal aliens have fake Social numbers and are paying into the system that you think produces $billions of dollars? And even if true, just how much have we paid out in welfare and free education and medical?
10:18pm • #42
9 Featured Posts

 Lots of interesting comments here.  Note that my original EquityScout.com post got picked up on Topix.net.  I have to say that the conversation here on ActiveRain has been a lot more balanced (not to mention more literate) than the one over on the Topix immigration site. 

Obviously I can't comment on all 41 comments (and counting) but I'll touch on a few.

Simon Conway:  Hats off to you as a legal immigrant to our country.  One area where I think the United States is actually making some strides is attracting skilled professionals from abroad - from the way that you express yourself in writing it's clear that you're in this camp.  There's a process for folks like you and it works (well it works as well as anything managed by the government can work).  However there isn't an effective process for folks who work in our meat plants processing poultry or working in our fields picking citrus.  We need these workers and for decades we've welcomed them with open arms (once they get across the border) but as it stands currently there isn't a realistic option for an uneducated foreign born worker who wants to come to the United States legally to pick lettuce.  Comparing your situation to theirs is, in my opinion, not fair. 

And regarding landlords renting to illegal residents: it would be simple enough for me, as a landlord, to ask for a social security card.  And believe me - every illegal worker in Houston has one.  I can't tell a real one from a fake one, and I don't want to be put in a position where I'm expected to deny housing to people I find "suspicious" - which in Texas means "Spanish speaking".  These are terrible laws. 

Our labor landscape has changed.  There are lots of jobs that American's won't do.  Americans won't spend eight hours killing hogs on a conveyer belt.  They won't spend seasons migrating around California and Florida picking produce.  Even modest crackdowns in these industries has already resulted in capacity being removed from the system; you can't replace the workers. 

Jim Lee:  You comment "...how do they do that (pay taxes) without a social security number?"  An illegal alien working for Tyson, Holiday Inn, or a large corporate farm will have acquired (easily) a fake social security card. Illegal workers pay around $4 billion per year in social security taxes -  but unlike you and me they will never receive any benefits from the fund that they're paying into.  See Isaac Bensussen's comment, above. 

You go on to say:  "I have rental properties and I have no problem doing a background ... Not that tough to also see if the prospective renters are legal at the same time."  I disagree.  Not only is it tough, it's actually impossible, given today's system.  I'm trying to imagine how I'd react if the INS showed up at my front door ready to cart me off because I accepted an bogus social security card from a tenant.  I don't have the tools or the knowledge to enforce this law, and I shouldn't be asked to it. 

Jennifer Kirby:  Regarding your rehab disaster - your problem isn't that the workers on the site were here illegally; the problem was that the contractor was incompetent.  Here in Houston I'd say that practically every residential job site has some illegal workers.  Some are fantastic and some are bad. 

Hugh Krone:  You say "...Well I say Americans will do any job if it will support their family if you don't agree i point out the coal minors."  You bring up an issue that I won't be able to adequately address in this short comment - but certain industries have been shielded from being structurally changed by the influx of illegal workers.  Walk into any restaurant kitchen or any residential construction site and you'll see lots of illegal workers.  Walk into a coal mine or a high-rise construction site and you won't.  The difference is primarily due to the fact that miners and steelworkers are unionized.  Different ballgame. 

Lane Bailey:  You say "If a person broke into your house ...would it be any less of a crime if they did some laundry there...?  People that violate the borders are violating the law.  Letting people stay that violate the borders is basically allowing them to benefit from breaking the law."  If someone breaks into my house I could care less what they do for a living, or whether or not they're a legal resident of the United States.  What I care about is the fact that they broke into my house.  I'd want them put in jail - and if they're legal, deported.   I don't put a murderer into the same category as a shoplifter.  In the same vein, I don't put an illegal immigrant who's spent twenty years doing difficult, dangerous work in the United Sates, paying taxes into our coffers, and has a couple of American born kids in high school in the same category as some guy who broke into my house and threatened my family.  They're not the same, and I think that it's the American way that we shouldn't treat them the same. 

Bill Nazur.  Great video.  http://activerain.com/blogsview/278828/Are-Illegals-to-Blame  Everyone should watch this.  I've had tenants who are immigrants and your statistics don't surprise me at all.   

Graham Holmes:  Welcome to the U.S. of A.

Adrea Mills:  You say "All the "Let's be friends" chatter is nice and heartwarming but in the real world we are at war."  Who are we at war with?  The terrorists who flew planes into the world trade center on 9-11 were in the country legally and paid cash for first class airline seats.  They weren't picking lettuce or blowing leaves.  When we're speaking the language of war we need to focus on the right enemy. 

11:23pm • #43
DEC
29
2007
111,290 Points 10 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Christopher:

The problems with illegals working on our job site were:

1) They came to Florida after the hurricane to look for a quick buck because they knew there would be work to do.

2) They had no construction experience like ours required so they damaged our house. They DID NOT CARE that this was to be our home. The home was a 110 year old Victorian that had a lot of old wood work. They destroyed nearly half of the antique stairway and destroyed all the molding details on the main floor, during their entire house demolition because they DID NOT CARE. They were the incompetent workers, not the contractor.

3) The language barrier caused a lot of problems. They also showed a blatant disrespect for us and our home. Their attitude had nothing to do with the contractor because he was also Hispanic. We have done numerous construction projects, and this was the only home we had problems with and the only one with illegal workers.

3) Those that come here legally, usually care about this country and care about becoming a citizen. When they come here illegally, from my experience, they don't care about anything but themselves and sending the money they earn back across the border. THAT is the main problem with immigration. Immigration means moving to a new land to call home. Immigration does not mean moving to a country to take advantage of work...that's called a work visa which has a time frame attached.

It really does not matter if you have competent workers in Houston, Florida, California or any where else in the country. Competency does not zero out that fact that they are here ILLEGALLY. Who cares if they are the most fantastic worker in the world. THEY BROKE THE LAW and they are still breaking it by being here.

This is the problem with America today. We don't want to upset the cart. We don't want to be against something because it might make us look bad...some will even throw around words like discrimination and racism to try and shame us into going along with the herd. They ignore the fact that an illegal act was committed and say "ah, give them a break, it's not like they killed someone". In my opinion, breaking the law is breaking the law. Like the signs say "What part of Illegal do you not understand?"

As for the terrorists, almost all of them came into the country on a tourist visa that expired in six months. By the time they killed 3,000 people, three of them had expired visas and were thus in the country illegally. Three of the four pilots attended flight school illegally because study of that type was not permitted with the visas they held. So don't go painting a rosy picture of these guys that they were legally here when the evidence points to the contrary.

10:24am • #44

Simon:

I "don't think" undocumented workers have paid and keep paying billions of dollars in Social Security Taxes. I know. As for all the illegals drawing welfare benefits? Where do you get your information?. I know lots of Mexican-Americans born in the USA, I know lots of African-Americans, I know lots of white Americans; and many people in these groups drawing Welfare Benefits. Undocumented workers are too afraid to go to the Welfare Offices to draw welfare, so they don't do it.

As for medical attention, our system stinks. There are millions of Americans without health insurance. Many of uninsured Americans go to Emergency Rooms in Hospitals and never pay the bills. Also, many undocumented workers. Many of these workers are denied Health care benefits because employers know they are here illegally.They have to go to private clinics and pay for the services and some time to Emergency Care at Hospitals. They are not the only ones. Last time I was at Scripps Hospital in La Jolla, a Russian Immigrant, maybe Tourist, hurt his arm in an accident. Emergency Care fixed his arm. After they fixed his arm, when he was asked to show his Health Insurance Card, he answered he had left it at his home and also his check book. The Hospital let him go with the recommendation to bring back his Health Insurance Card ASAP.  As soon as he left with a couple of friends and just outside the Emergency room door, they started laughing, with the friends jokingly saying; Sure, you left your Health Insurance Card and check book at your home, of course,Ha, Ha. He got his hurt arm fixed for free. By the way, who can afford Emergency Room charges without Health Insurance.  Finally, school education. I believe that if you pay taxes, since many undocumented workers pay taxes through their employment, you are entitled to send your kids to learn English and be educated in public schools like the rest of us. Until you secure our borders and effectively create a fair Immigration Policy based on reality the problem will persist. Well, that's my opinion.

Isaac Bensussen-www.besthomesinlajolla.com  

11:57am • #45

Christopher:

By the way, great answers above.

Isaac Bensussen

12:13pm • #46
9 Featured Posts

Jennifer:  Sounds like this company was terrible and did awful work.  No argument there.  I've dealt with dishonest companies before and I know how you feel.  However, you're making an implicit argument (you're not exactly clear on this) that the company was bad because they were using illegal workers.  You go on to say that "They were the incompetent workers, not the contractor", a statement that I don't really understand and which doesn't make much sense.  Are you stating that the problem was not the contractor, but the workers that the contractors hired?  Is the contractor not responsible for the job?  I don't really understand this. 

As for terrorists: it's simple enough for sophisticated, well financed terrorists to come into the country without violating U.S. laws.   The 9-11 terrorists were not migrant workers or manual laborers.  They were sophisticated, well educated men who were fluent in English and who understood our legal system.   This isn't a rosy picture that I'm painting (not sure why you say that) - I'm just pointing out that the 9-11 is not a solid argument for cracking down on illegal migrant workers.

I won't change your mind on this point and I won't try.  I would, however, like to make sure that my central argument is clear.  There is a huge underclass of workers who have been in the United States for decades, and our society has welcomed them with open arms because we needed them to do certain types of jobs on the cheap.  Our laws were words on a page which we, as a society, completely disregarded.   We offered them illigal immigrants work and security (albeit dangerous, dirty and low paid), we accepted their tax money, and we implicitly encouraged them to establish communities here in the United States.  These are people I know and have dealt with. 

I was an officer in the United States Army so I'm not some radical liberal, but I don't believe that it's the American Way to categorically treat every one of these people as criminals.   A few years ago I wsa probably a little closer to your end of the spectrum on this issue, but now after having spent years in Latin America and now that I'm living in Houston and investing in real estate I understand that the picture that is painted by our politicians and on talk radio is disingenuously simplified and fundamentally dishonest. 

Isaac:   I can second some of your observations on health care.  My wife is a physician, an obstetrician/gynecologist.  If you want to see our health care system at its worst then come to a hospital in Texas and spend a day in the labor and delivery ward.  Every American with no health insurance - illegal and otherwise - places a huge drain on our system.  Preventive medicine (insured folks) is cheap and effective.  Emergency room medicine (uninsured folks) is ineffective, inefficient, and expensive.   

1:07pm • #47
111,290 Points 10 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Christopher -

My husband was a pilot and officer in the United States Navy and we were part of the military system for 15 years.  I have lived in enough places to see how immigration works. I have also lived in China and seen what it's like to live under communist rule. Every picture has to be painted in a simplified manner or the average American doesn't get it. Liberals and conservatives have their agendas and both think they have the best ideas to solve the problems we face. I don't think politicians are being dishonest, but that they truly believe they have the solution and sometimes get a little tunnel vision. (By the way, most military officers and enlisted I have know are conservatives). Maybe you are saying that since you have seen life in Latin America that you can sympathize with their place in life. I understand that. After living in China and seeing the fear citizens have of their government, my heart goes out to them. But the only ones that can truly change their way of life, in their own country, is the people themselves. It's a hard battle and takes decades, but it can be done.

You and I just believe differently. It cannot be any simpler  than the word "illegal". Sure, they are not hard core criminals by being in the country without permission, but they are breaking the law. A shoplifter and a murderer are not lumped together into the same group, but each is a law breaker and gets the punishment that fits the crime. Same with illegals, they get deported, not sent to jail for 10 years.

As for the workers on our job site. We never got to meet the crew until it was too late. The contractor was at fault for hiring them...they didn't know what they were doing. But the issue I see is that illegals come here for work, and will take many jobs they are not qualified for. They just want the quick buck and don't care if they do a poor job. Such was our case. There are some things that happened that aren't fit for print, but the illegal workers were very rude, offensive, and spoke to us in foul language...all because we complained about the damage they did to our house.  Like I've said, we've done many construction products, with legal workers, and have never been treated like this group treated us. It could have been an isolated incident, but I doubt it.

I guess I am not the type that solely blames management for problems. While the contractor should not have hired them, the workers themselves took no pride in their work, so thus my statement, the "workers were not competent". The destruction was their fault, not the contractor. As we all known, the GC does not stay on the job 24-7 and the reponsibilty has to fall on the crew. Hopefully this makes sense.

6:20pm • #48
347,837 Points 15 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Christopher - unfortunately you are not entirely correct. There ARE American farms who only employ LEGAL workers; There are American construction companies who only employ LEGAL American workers. There are Pool Boys in Florida who immigrated here legally.

As I stated above, it really is simple. ILLEGAL means exactly what it says. They have broken the law of the United States. I cannot believe anyone wishes to encourage our laws to be continually broken.

JAIL THE CEOs of the companies employing and exploiting these ILLEGAL immigrants and they will go home because the jobs will disappear. The laws exist. Enforce them and seal the borderS - the cap bold "s": was of course deliberate.

Oh and if you want to just give amnesty, then please refund every single penny I have paid to this Government to be here legally.

7:32pm • #49

 

The basic problem with legalizing 12 million illegal immigrants are the following:

 We are a country with severe long term problems. We face an energy shortage, severe competition from China/India and aging population. Most of these problems can be solved only by taking a drastic 30-50% hit in the living standards.

 By legalizing 12 million illegal immigrants you are sending a message to poor people in Mexico and Central America to come to America and to break out laws.

VP Shawn
8:54pm • #50
DEC
30
2007

Wow!  Thank you for having the "HUTZPAH" to speak out on this critical issue !  And I applaud you for the research you did.  Very intelligent, well written piece.

 

3:59pm • #51
DEC
31
2007
4 Featured Posts

Christopher,

Just because we (and I assume "we" stands for the American people) welcomed illegal immigrants with open arms decades ago doesn't make their status any less illegal and it also doesn't give them any special status. They have broken the law, period. That's all there is to it!

I'm not saying you're a radical liberal but having served in the military doesn't automatically mean you are not.

I also don't understand why "The American Way" would keep us from treating criminals as criminals.

Last but not least, have you considered organizations such as La Raza, Atzlan and Mecha? Are you aware of their agenda?

7:20am • #52
347,837 Points 15 Featured Posts Outside Blog
Andrea - you make great points. I also wonder if there is a number at which point those who say "let everyone in" would start to have a problem.
7:33am • #53
123,183 Points Outside Blog

A few politicians have found the ideal hot button to push.  Screaming about "illegal immigration" is a great way to draw attention away from the miserable economic performance of the current administration in Washington. 

Xenophobia is nothing new.  It doesn't take long to incite people to rally against a particular group.  Unfortunately, Hispanics are being targeted.  And it astounds me to see real estate licensees jumping on the bandwagon.

The line about "breaking the law" bears some scrutiny.  Immigration laws can be altered with the stroke of a pen.  The colossal crime of wanting to live and work in the United States is not exactly on a par with drug trafficking, lying to Congress or obstruction of justice.  Our government can be selective about which crimes they choose to enforce in this country, particularly when immigration reform makes such a convenient campaign issue.

Most amusing was he comment above, suggesting that the author of this post is a "radical liberal" for expressing his views.  I don't see name-calling as elevating the dialogue on any topic here.

To those who proudly identified themselves as "legal immigrants", I commend you for your effort and your success in becoming citizens of the United States.  But citizenship does not automatically carry with it the right to look down your nose at those who aspire to come here after you did.

7:45am • #54
347,837 Points 15 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Eric - if you choose to twist my words to try and make your point, what you actually accomplish is making my point for me! There is nowhere in my words where I have said I am against people coming here. That would be nuts really and I'm not nuts. What I said was "stand in line" just as I have done. If there is a legal process then surely any normal person would agree that everyone should follow it. Everyone should pay the fees involved; Everyone should be issued with a social security card and pay their taxes. If you don't agree with that, then scrap the legal process and let anyone who wants to come here do just that. And while you're at it, please show me where to go to have all the fees I have paid to the Government to be here legally, refunded.

Finally - you are absolutely right when you say that name calling does not elevate the dialogue - which makes your use of the word "xenophobia" quite interesting don't you think? You don't know me in the slightest, but for the record, I don't care where you come from; what your skin color is; who you call 'God' or what language you speak. I just want you to do as I and countless millions before me have done. Obey the law!

7:59am • #55
123,183 Points Outside Blog

Simon, my comments were not directed at you individually, not at all.

Any discussion of "throwing those people out" makes me uncomfortable.  Please understand that I have been a Fair Housing instructor in the past, that I have taught other agents to avoid even the appearance of discrimination.  And I feel the popular public diatribe against "illegals" is overwhelmingly targeted at people from Mexico who seek to live and work here.

With a stroke of a pen, Congress and the President could change the status of currently-despised undocumented aliens to "legal" aliens.  All crimes are not equal.  Large corporations have played a role for decades in luring aliens to come and work in this country.  Those same corporations have taken huge advantage of undocumented workers, who receive substandard pay and no benefits.  The same corporations have, on numerous occasions, violated child labor laws and state employment laws and Federal reporting requirements.  But no one is calling for punishment of those corporations (or their executives) that have broken the law.

 

8:35am • #56
123,183 Points Outside Blog

I neglected to compliment Christopher Smith for this post and for his excellent replies above.  Christoper, you did a tremendous job of researching this subject and bringing up complex issues that have been too often neglected.

Christopher, I've added you as an Associate and have also subscribed to your blog.  I'd encourage everyone else who has read this post to follow suit.

8:39am • #57
347,837 Points 15 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Well Eric, I took it as a comment to me because of your reference those of us who proudly identify themselves as "legal immigrants". I am one of those people. And also if you check up about ten comments ago you will find one from me that talks about the exploitation of illegal immigrants by companies. In that same piece I call for the jailing of the CEOs!

And yes - Congress and the President can change the law with the stroke of a pen. Prostitution could be legal; drugs could be legal; abortion could be illegal, but none of that matters. What matters is that we have laws and they should be obeyed.

8:43am • #58
123,183 Points Outside Blog

Simon, don't you think it's a bit excessive to compare immigration law violations with drug trafficking or prostitution??

It's a great idea, but do you think our government is really going to jail CEOs who have encouraged undocumented immigrants to work here?  I wonder how much lobbying money has made its way to certain politicians from those corporations that were responsible for opening the door to immigrants. 

8:52am • #59
9 Featured Posts

Andrea:  You state "Just because we (and I assume "we" stands for the American people) welcomed illegal immigrants with open arms decades ago doesn't make their status any less illegal and it also doesn't give them any special status. They have broken the law, period. That's all there is to it!"  The idea that you express probably comes the closest to nailing the fundamental disagreement that I have with folks like you and Simon. 

In the ‘80s we welcomed wave after wave of these illegal immigrants to do certain types of work.  And of course they came, had kids in our country who are high school aged American citizens, established families and communities, and paid taxes.  To decide now, some twenty years later to round ‘em all up, split up their families, and forcibly abandon the lives and investments that we, the American people, encouraged them to make - I'm sorry, but that's not my vision of the American way.

As for the organizations you mentioned (La Raza, etc) - the ideas that I've expressed here are not ideas that I've gotten from some special interest group.  They're my own ideas that I've formed from living in this country and interacting with people.  I'm not a spokesperson for anyone.  I'm expressing my own American values of fairness. 

Simon:  You state "I also wonder if there is a number at which point those who say ‘let everyone in' would start to have a problem."  Wow - is someone on this board saying "let everyone in"?

You're arguing that everyone should follow a process: stand in line, pay a fee, get a social security card, etc.  I think that this is a good idea.  Our country has put into place mechanisms of this sort which, to some degree, have been effective for admitting literate, educated skilled professionals from other countries.  Sounds like you fall into this category.  However, our country has never respected this ideal when it comes to the uneducated, largely illiterate workforce that we've been welcoming under the table for decades.   I'm not saying "let everyone in" - I don't think anyone on this board is.  What I'm saying (and you appear to disagree - fair enough) is that we have an ethical obligation to acknowledge that millions and millions of immigrants came into our country and spent decades working in jobs which our society made readily available.  Our government knew.  Our communities knew.  We, the consumers (meat, vegetables, fruit, hotels, restaurant kitchens, you name it) knew it.  To now say "ok, leave your English speaking American kids here (foster homes?  relatives?) but you need to go back to Monterrey where you came from" is wrong.  Not my vision of family values. 

Regarding jailing the CEOs:  That wouldn't be any more effective than, say, jailing me as a landlord for renting a property to an illegal immigrant.  Those companies will argue that if someone applies for a job picking lettuce and produces a social security card which says "Juan Jones" and Juan happens to be the best man for the job then they're obligated to hire him.  How are you going to hold CEOs (and landlords) responsible for enforcing a policy that's been treated by our federal government with wonton neglect?  You'd successfully sting some of the small guys who don't even bother asking for a SSN and who don't pay minimum wage (or at all!) but trying to turn our current shame of a system into something enforceable would only make all of the actors stick more faithfully to the whole charade.  The system is hopelessly broken. 

Jennifer Kirby:  You say that "...every picture has to be painted in a simplified manner or the average American doesn't get it."  I don't think this is true!  I work with people from every social level in our society, and I'm firmly convinced that the American people, in general, is fully capable of digesting a more nuanced policy view than the polarized emotional soundbites that the leading candidates insult us with.  That, actually, was the main point of the original post: that we should demand more. 

9:20am • #60
347,837 Points 15 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Christopher - Let's see if there are some areas of agreement between us.

1. Seal the borders and mean it!

2. 1/1/2008 - anyone enterin g the country after that date should be locked up and then deported.

3. Enforce the laws we already have.

4. Stop exploitation of illegal immigrants by these companies who also don't obey our labor laws.

 Let's start with those four and see where it takes us.

10:37am • #61
288,803 Points 52 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Hit Router

"A federal judge on Monday rejected the "everybody else is doing it" defense argued by an attorney on behalf of a restaurateur who staffed his business with illegal immigrants.

"This is happening every day in Mexican restaurants," attorney Charles Torres argued on behalf of Pun Wun Chan. "As an immigration practitioner, I see these types of situations every day. It's hard for me to take it as a serious crime because it's a constant ongoing (thing)."

U.S. District Judge Tom Varlan sided with Assistant U.S. Attorney Will Mackie, who told the judge, "I don't think there's any justification because others may do this."

Varlan sentenced Chan, 51, to a year in prison for conspiring to harbor, house and employ as many as two dozen Hispanic illegal immigrants at his Number One China Buffet restaurant on Papermill Drive from December 2003 to January 2005."

THIS has made a believer out of lots of Knoxville employers.

11:25am • #62
347,837 Points 15 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Jim - this is GREAT news! And I believe it is happening with increasing regularity. Well done to US Attorney Will Mackie!

OK - I think I've had enough of the back and forth stuff here so I'm going to blog the counter argument myself. So I've done it - Immigration and Real Estate - the Counter argument

1:08pm • #63
197,658 Points 56 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

Ok,  I just really don't get a lot of this argument.  It seems as though the argument is going on and on and nothing is being accomplished.  Christopher, like you, I'm from Houston.  I hear very few people say to send them all home.  I actually believe that very few really in their heart believe that this is the right thing to do.

Before I was in Real Estate I was in the Restaurant industry.  Management actually.  One day, a lady walks in off of the street crying.  She stated that she was undocumented and she would do any work that I asked her to do.  All she was asking for was $3/hour cash but she absolutely had to make some money Please, Please, Please.  What?  Your comment above about how the company would be obligated to hire someone if they showed a social security card?  I'm sorry, that is just not true.  I sadly had to turn this lady away.  There are numerous laws that would have been broken in this instance.

As far as jobs Americans won't do?  Has anyone asked any of the people in line for unemployment lately?

I have to say that I am in the middle of the road on this issue.  but there MUST be a way to track for MANY MANY reasons.  The Social Security numbers that some (not all you notice I said) undocumented workers use ARE REAL PEOPLE'S SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBERS!   I'm sure if you were notified by the IRS that your numbers were being used by someone else, you would not like it much.  So, who pays the taxes there?  This topic....gets me going.  Health care, on and on.

Christopher,  this issue is a tough one in our area.  As far as landlords having to find out if a person is 'legal' or not.  I don't really know how I feel about that issue.  I believe it puts us, as agents, in a poor situation.  Somewhere along the line would this be considered a Fair Housing Violation?  One does not have to be a 'legal alien' or citizen to buy property here.  ????  Why would, atleast on our side of the business, would renting be any different?  That, IMO, would be discriminatory in some ways.

Well, as everyone has said, it's a very complex issue and one that I do not see being solved any time soon.  Until then, the Human Factor, as you say it...we need to remember that.   In every day life, and especially in this industry.  Hopefully one day there will come a win/win situation for everyone.  Just as there are some felons that are not legal, there are many that are citizens. 

This is a tough one.  Can't believe you wrote about it on a Real Estate Forum though.  :)

3:08pm • #64
9 Featured Posts

Stephanie:  Yours is a great comment.  And I agree - if a applicant presents herself as an undocumented worker willing to work for below minimum wage then you'd have an ethical obligation not to employ her.  I'd never imply otherwise.  What I did say was that employers (and landlords) aren't in a position to turn away job applicants (and tenants) who present a valid application, are qualified, and present a social security number.  I suppose I could use "common sense" and refuse to hire hispanic looking Spanish speaking applicants, but you see where that leads us...

Likewise, I'd never wish to imply that it's ok to use a fake SSN.  What I did say is that there is no way for employers and landlords to track this.  This isn't an endorsement of the practice.  Fixing this identification system would be a big step towards at least creating an enforceable set of rules. 

As for presenting the topic in a real estate forum: the original post centered on the impact that various positions on immigration reform would have on the real estate industry, and potential effects for landlords and real estate investors.  So it was sorta relevant at first.

So you're probably more or less right about nothing being accomplished here, but I think that just opening a dialogue is uesful...so thanks for participating!

3:42pm • #65
4 Featured Posts

Christopher,

we got a problem with illegal immigration. No matter how warm and heartfelt your vision of hardworking illegals is, the fact remains that they broke the law and they need to be deported.

I did in no way mention or even indicate that your ideas have anything to do with LaRaza, Mecha and/or Atzlan. I was merely inviting folks to take a look at the hidden agenda many illegals carry across the border..........they want their turf back.

6:12pm • #66

Christopher:

I read a beautiful quote in the Editorial page of the New York Times/Sunday December 30 regarding immigration.

"The thruth is this: Americans can not expect immigrants to serve them- to make their beds and meals, feed their babies and ailing parents, and pick their crops-while living in fear and hopelessness".

Isaac Bensussen-www.besthomesinlajolla.com

 

7:42pm • #67
347,837 Points 15 Featured Posts Outside Blog
Go read my blog Isaac.
8:02pm • #68
JAN
02
2008
105,170 Points 12 Featured Posts

Christopher - Thanks for a reasonable attempt at opening the channels of communication. It is apparent that opinions are varied and strong regarding this issue.

I see than many feel it is simple to correct. They feel the government should just enforce the law. They are very careful to target immigration law.

I don't have facts, but I would bet that the same people calling for stricter enforcement of the law would absolutely howl if -

  • Every police department was outfitted with technology that guaranteed you would receive a ticket in the mail for every time you drove over the speed limit.
  • Every vehicle in use had a breathalyzer attached to the ignition and the vehicle would not operate if anyone in the front seat had a .05 alcohol content on their breath.
  • the parents of every delinquent teen were held responsible and charged as co-conspirators for every offense their children committed.
  • parents were taxed at a higher rate if they failed to participate in their children's PTA.
  • the government introduced a system that would carefully scrutinize and analyze every tax return.
  • if convictions for DUI or any other offense involving the use of a motor vehicle while impaired resulted in the immediate impounding of that vehicle.
  • if states governing real estate transactions took over distribution of commission payments and denied payment to any agent that failed to have proper paperwork signed and submitted.

I could go on. My point is we are eager to pick and choose our battles. This one is easy. The other side has no legal ground to defend.

It is a big issue. A broad media brush will never capture all the nuances. Immigrants are the new American "negro". They live and operate at the bottom of our socio-economic system. As of yet, they do not have an organization representing them in the same fashion that the SCLC represented the down trodden Black African American in the 60's.

The louder the sabers rattle, the darker their night appears. I take heart in the words of Dr. King, "But I know, somehow, that only when it is dark enough, can you see the stars."

We prefer to see the immigrants as a faceless mass of people. One day, a leader will rise up and unite them in their struggle. They will manage to coordinate a strike that will impact Americans. They will manage to effectively boycott firms. They will demonstrate the power they possess. Only then will the powers in the House and Senate recognize them for what they are. They are men, women and children that are here making their lives and our lives better. They are people and deserve to be treated as such.

So thank you for speaking out.

12:48am • #69
111,290 Points 10 Featured Posts Outside Blog

John - I have to say that your argument just doesn't hold water for me. To compare your long list to immigration is a long, long stretch. We are in FACT talking only about immigration in this post, and not about drunk driving, speeding, taxes, etc.  Illegals are breaking the law. To compare illegals to blacks is also a long stretch. Blacks in the 60's were here LEGALLY and are CITIZENS. Your damn right their rights were being violated. But an illegal in this country? He has no rights..no rights to health care, no rights to welfare, no rights to social security, no right to vote, etc.

Strike you say...bring it on. It will do the country good. Our country has gotten too laid back. With illegals going on strike, others will pick up the torch. See, that's what makes America great, and too many people are selling our country short. If something happens to us, we go on. Sure, a strike will put a glitch in the system, but only temporarily, because Americans have the ability to adapt and go on. The power you mention is a faint illusion that too many people have swallowed and excepted as fact. If a leader rises up among them, then I would love to hear him defend the illegality of the group.

You make the point all of us are trying to make with "The other side has no legal ground to defend." Yeah, they don't, because they are here illegally!

9:22am • #70
123,183 Points Outside Blog

John MacArthur, I was glad to read your very enlightened comments above on Christopher's excellent post.

To all agents on ActiveRain who wish to join and champion the crusade to drive undocumented aliens out of the county, I'd say have at it.  And while you're at it, I'll be glad to take all the prospective clients who will be offended by your stand on this issue.  There are many.

Better yet, let's see all the agents who are so passionate about building border walls and deporting aliens place a statement about their political opinions about this issue on their website, blog and in all their marketing materials. 

3:09pm • #71
347,837 Points 15 Featured Posts Outside Blog
I find it fascinating that people like Eric don't even want to go and read the counter argument. I wasn't aware this was a cheerleading blog.
3:34pm • #72
111,290 Points 10 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Eric - I thought this was an open discussion. I didn't know that those of us that disagree with you don't have the right to our opinion. If I lose business because of my beliefs, then I probably don't want those people as clients any way. Shoot, I've lost business only because I am not 50 years old and look to have been the business for 20 years. To say that I must be politically correct and not voice my opinion so as not to lose any business is pathetic. If you are denying who you are and what you believe just to make a buck, then go ahead. That's not my way. I was taught to stand up for your beliefs and to have no fear when you are going against the herd.

Minnesota is largely a Democratic state. Do you think that because I am a Republican that I keep my mouth shut on issues because it might make some liberals mad? I don't think so. Christopher opened himself up to this debate by blogging about Immigration. We all have a right to post a comment. As far as your snide remark about posting topics like this in our blogs and marketing, why would we? I don't have a place in my real estate blog that would warrant such a discussion. Why would I put an article about my views on immigration on a marketing piece for my clients? It isn't warranted. I am sure there are things in this world you don't agree with, maybe with your religion, but I bet you wouldn't go putting on your marketing materials that you are against a controversial topic.

The very use of your words "undocumented aliens" tells me all I need to know. You see absolutely nothing wrong with them breaking the law. And THAT is what is wrong with our society today. People pick and choose what laws they think are ok to break, and use /or don't use the law to fit their own needs and agenda.

I guess I should get scared, keep my mouth shut, and let liberal views take over this country. But I don't want this country to end up like Europe, so I will keep speaking my mind....and I won't apologize for offending you.

3:56pm • #73
111,290 Points 10 Featured Posts Outside Blog
Here, here, Simon. Some just can't stand to have an open debate where their views are not believed in by all.
3:59pm • #74
347,837 Points 15 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Jennifer - standing ovation! Truly you should go and check out Immigration and Real Estate - the Counter argument

As for Eric - as you can see (well you would if you could actually stand to read the counter argument), my views are regularly posted on my blog. Just as they are regularly discussed on my radio show. I will never pretend to be someone I'm not just for a deal (or for any other reason). I hope YOUR clients are reading this because now they must question what your true beliefs are.

4:04pm • #75
105,170 Points 12 Featured Posts

Jennifer - So much heat and passion in your response, I did a double take when I noticed this. "THAT is what is wrong with our society today. People pick and choose what laws they think are ok to break, and use /or don't use the law to fit their own needs and agenda."

Those are your words. So at some level you seem to be aware that people pick and choose what laws they will obey. On another point, I just don't want you ranting and possibly making a fool of yourself in the future. Doctors and hospitals are required to provide care for those in need. There are Hill-Burton funds to cover the cost of this care. The Hill-Burton act does not identify whom should receive the care beyond the fact that the person must need the financial assistance. There is no WELFARE. There is aid for dependant children. There is a food stamp program. Welfare in the form of checks being doled out has not existed in this country for years. Social security benefits are only given to those that have contributed to the system. Anyone working with a false social security care will have those taxes deducted and never receive any benefit. It a strange way, the undocumented workers that are doing so are actually increasing the social security fund. No one can vote that is not registered to vote.

Should a leader rise up, he or she will not defend the illegality of the group. A leader will work to have the issue resolved in a fair fashion. I do not have a problem with the issue being resolved. I do have a problem with the racist bend the conversation takes.

This is not about sharing or hiding ones views. It is about having the decency our forefathers expected us to develop over 200 years. This is about compassion. This is about putting a face on every undocumented resident and coming up with a plan that will resolve the problem. This resolution will have to include how we will deal with the thousands of immigrants that have gone through the normal process.

As the volumn of this debate increases, it is nearly impossible to hear the quiet whisper of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

5:01pm • #76
9 Featured Posts
 Simon:  in principle I don’t disagree with your four points, but I think they’re all tactics (specific actions) which might succeed once we’ve solved the issue of the millions of illegal residents who are already here.  I other words, I think that these eventually will be good steps, but we can’t start with them.  I’ve patrolled a border before as a soldier stationed on the DMZ between North and South Korea, and the idea of a 1,500 wall between the United States and Mexico manned by U.S. soldiers with shoot-on-sight orders strikes me distinctly un-American.  And with our current situation no measure short of this will truly seal our borders.  I hope this is a mission that our military would be wise enough to resist to the extent allowed by our constitution.  

Jim Lee:  Your story is a good example of a quick win – and one that we’ll probably expect to see more of, regardless of what happens with immigration reform.  I saw an unbelievable story recently about an Oklahoma manufacturer who imported and enslaved a whole team of steelworkers from India.  

These guys are thugs and criminals, and on top of that they’re stupid.  But walk into ExxonMobil’s headquarters in Houston at 6:30 pm on any weekday.  Or Continental Airlines’.  You’ll see an army of exclusively Spanish speaking workers filing into the building to clean it.  Or any major hotel chain.  Or major farm. Or meatpackers.  These companies won’t be busted because they’re following the rules of a broken system.  I’ll elaborate if you’re interested.   

Isaac Bensussen:  The problem with that NYTimes quote is that most American’s don’t really expect immigrants to “…their beds and meals, feed their babies and ailing parents, and pick their crops-while living in fear and hopelessness.”  They don’t “expect” anything at all because they haven’t really thought about the issue.  And they haven’t thought about it because it’s never presented with any insight or complexity.  

John MacArthur:  I don’t really think it’s relevant to compare the plight of illegal U.S. residents (who’ve lived and worked here for decades w/ the full complicity of our society and economic system) the drunk drivers and tax cheats.  

No one is inviting Americans to drink and drive or cheat on their taxes.  But for decades we’ve rolled out the red carpets for immigrants from poor countries to come to America to do dirty/dangerous/low paid jobs.  Our government and corporations have encouraged this behavior.  And people have come and raised their families here because of it.  Do we split up these families?  Liberal firebrand Mike Huckabee said it well: “We are a better country than to punish children for what their parents did.”  There’s something disingenuous about cracking down on an underclass of illegal workers who have simply done exactly what we’ve collectively encouraged.  

Jennifer Kirby
:  As for a public discussion, please do note that this is a topic that is directly relevant to real estate – particularly for real estate investors, who are my primary audience.  I did post it in a public forum (my own blog.  Interesting to note that for days I couldn't find the counter-argument that Simon was referring to.  The reason: Ii wasn't logged on and it's hidden.  Simon’s immigration post is visible only to ActiveRain members – which would imply that either he feels that the topic isn’t relevant to real estate or he doesn’t want the general public to see his thoughts.  


Simon:  Ok, sorry for referring to you in the third person – I should have directed that comment directly to you.    
7:54pm • #77
347,837 Points 15 Featured Posts Outside Blog
Christopher - my blog is viewable by the public. It was an original mistake that it was members only.
8:49pm • #78
111,290 Points 10 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Christopher - there was a statement made that those of us disagreeing with legalizing illegals would be afraid to speak about this subject on our websites. I made the point that on MY websites and marketing, such a discussion is not warranted. I do have a problem with legalizing the millions of illegals are here. From my research:

  • illegals contribute $16 Billion a year in taxes, but cost the federal government almost $30 Billion a year in costs like Medicare, treatment for uninsured, food programs, prisons and court systems, federal aid to schools, etc
  • if we were to legalize all of them, they would still be a drain on the system. In fact the Center for Immigration Studies says that with nearly two-third of illegals lacking a high school diploma, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments - not their legal status or their unwillingness to work.

I am also curious what would happen to the cost of goods were everyone granted legal citizenship. If this were to happen, employers could no longer pay ridiculous low wages and would in fact have to offer at least minimum wage, possibly more should unions get involved. Companies would then be paying more in wages and would most likely have to raise the cost of their goods and services to turn a profit. Granted, they should have thought about this before taking advantage of illegals through low wages, but Americans will not be too happy when the cost of goods increases. My main point is that the law has been broken, and legalizing them all with a swipe of a pen will do more harm then good.

John- I don't know if you are implying that those of us disagreeing with you are racist, but putting that comment in makes it seem you are. We are in fact citizens that care about this country and want what is fair to happen. People like Simon have done it the right way. Legalizing millions will only cheapen what he has done for the love of country. Many of those looking to be made legal aliens could care less about becoming an American.

As for your comment, "No one can vote that is not registered to vote". Do you have any idea how many illegals are registered to vote? Enough to throw elections. So here you have people with false identification that allows them to vote, when they have no right to do so. I have a problem with that.

As for the Hill Burton act, please get your facts straight. Only hospitals that agree to the rules of the act receive funds. Not every hospital or facility participates. In fact, funds are only given for facility costs, not doctor costs. So those coming into such a hospital will still have to pay for the doctor bill, and care is not automatically free. Those seeking to have the cost covered must apply and meet requirements. They can even be denied for the following reasons:

  • Your income is more than the income specified in the Allocation Plan.
  • The facility has given out its required amount of free care as specified in its Allocation Plan.
  • The services you requested or received are not covered in the facility's Allocation Plan.
  • The services you requested or received are to be paid by a governmental program such as Medicare/Medicaid or insurance.
  • The facility asked you to apply for Medicare/Medicaid or other governmental program, and you did not.
  • You did not give the facility proof of your income, such as a pay stub.
  •  

    9:19pm • #79
    9 Featured Posts

    Simon:  Public....great!  I figured that must have been an oversight. 

    Jennifer:  $16 Billion in taxes vs. $30 Billion in services?  What's your source for that statistic (just curious).  And a more interesting question...assuming it's true what do you think about it?  Here's something to consider: any low income worker - street cleaner, dish washer, migrant worker - is not going to contribute that much in terms of taxes (they don't make much).  And that low income worker is going to use more in terms of public services (wealthy people don't need subsidized lunches and medicaid). 

    Our tax system, which is not punitive by global standards (ask Simon how much one pays in the London for a gallon of gasoline, most of it tax) is a system for the redistribution of wealth.  Millionaires pay more.  Janitors pay less.  Millionaires (generally speaking) get less from the government than they put in.  Janitors generally get more from the government than they contribute.  

    This particular issue isn't one of illegal workers vs legal workers.  It's one of rich folks vs. poor folks.  It applies to the dishwasher who was born in Memphis the same way that it applies to the dishwasher who was born in Monterrey, as long as they're washing dishes in the U.S. of A.  With one exception: they guy born in Memphis will eventually qualify for social security, whereas the Mexican born worker with the fake SSN pays into the system but won't qualify when he's ready to retire.  

    On another note: you pose an interesting question when you ask "what would happen to the cost of goods were everyone granted legal citizenship."  But...your logic is a little backwards!  You're under the impression that this would raise the cost of goods and services because the workers could not be as easily exploited.  But compare this to the impact of deporting all those workers.  If/when this occurs then an entire segment of our labor force will disappear entirely.  You wouldn't have to pay them more because they wouldn't be here at all - you'd have to find American citizens to do the jobs - work in slaughter houses, clean office buildings, pick lettuce, etc.  The supply of workers would go down, and Economics 101 tells you that when supply goes down, cost skyrockets.  

    And maybe your view is that this is the price that American society must pay.  Fair enough - but if that's your idea then just say it.  Proposing the view that legalizing workers is the more expensive option is one that you can't rationally defend.   

    11:17pm • #80
    123,183 Points Outside Blog

    Christoper, the National Immigration Forum website debunks many of the anti-immigrant myths and misleading "statistics" perpetuated by groups like the Heritage Foundation.  You may want to check it out

    http://www.immigrationforum.org/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=61

     

    11:44pm • #81
    JAN
    03
    2008
    9 Featured Posts
    Eric:  I'm not familiar with that group, but when it comes to statistics I, as a general rule, try not to quote any source left of the New York Times or right of the Wall Street journal.  That helps us focus on the ideas being discussed instead of debating the special interest group agenda of the source.  But thanks for the link. 
    1:13am • #82
    111,290 Points 10 Featured Posts Outside Blog

    Christopher- I went back through my comments and not once have I suggested that all 20 Million illegals be deported. You are missing my point. First, the cost to deport them all would be ridiculous, but we shouldn't' be scared to do so for some. Second, all of them should not be granted legal status just to make it easier on all of us. A system needs to be set up for getting them to citizenship, maybe start with a work visa, then go to green card, then finally to citizenship. But rewarding them for breaking the law with the swipe of a pen goes against everything this country stands for. The American Dream has never been given to anyone on a silver platter...people have to earn it. If you don't earn it, then it means nothing to you.

    For workers and their cost to the fed, if you legalized them all at once, all 20 Million, they would put a huge drain on the economy for the very reason that the tax from their wages is less than the services they require for living.You prove my point in your very comment. Maybe once you get past the first generation, the next generation will increase their education and things will be better, but only time will tell. I think one thing people forget is that the solution is a long term one, which cannot be fixed overnight.

    Forgive me but I don't see your point on "its' about rich folks vs. poor folks". Please tell me you are not trying to blame this on the rich.

     

    8:59am • #83
    347,837 Points 15 Featured Posts Outside Blog

    "Rich" is not a dirty word. I'm not going to get into that, because I don't want to change directions here. We have to start with the borders. Apart from anything else, our security depends on it. And yes Christopher, I do believe we should build a 2,000 + mile long DOUBLE fence and yes I do believe it should be manned by our military and I do believe they should have "shoot to kill" orders for anyone trying to cross it illegally. That's the first step. The second step is to hold employers accountable. Just like in Arizona where the law changed on January 1st.

    The law punishes first-time violators who knowingly hire illegal immigrants, with a 10-day suspension of their business licenses. A second offense means they lose it.

    The measure also requires employers to use an online federal database, dubbed "E-Verify," to check the employment eligibility of new hires in Arizona.

    So far the biggest fall out is Carl's Jr hamburgers who say they will expand into Texas instead of Arizona! That's almost funny.

    Then we have to deal with the anchor baby law - it simply has to go!

    Finally we need to deal with the people who are already here. As I said on my own blog, those with US Citizen children get to stay and pay a hefty fine which they can make payments on. Those without US Citizen babies have to leave and go home and apply properly. You could even introduce a measure whereby they are fast tracked.

    9:29am • #84
    9 Featured Posts

    Jennifer:   I think your pathway to citizenship: starting with a work visa, on to a green card, then finally to citizenship, makes a lot of sense. 

     

    on Economics:  I understand your point perfectly, I just disagree with it.  Your statement was that legalizing illegal workers would mean that companies “...would most likely have to raise the cost of their goods and services to turn a profit.  This is an untrue statement.  Compared to any other alternative legalizing illegal workers would be the option that is least likely to result in an increase in the prices that American consumers pay.  I think that we all agree that the status quo is not sustainable (and not desirable).  Of all of the things that we could do, legalizing workers would keep prices the lowest. 

     

    Interestingly enough, it seems that providing a path to legalize these workers is exactly what you've proposed in your last comment - a point on which we agree.  This would help stabalize our economy.    

    on Wealthy people and poor people:  I'm not proposing that we eat the rich - I'm just pointing out a simple fact of economics.  I’ll elaborate.  You stated that you had a problem with legalizing illegal workers, in part because they contribute $16 billion in taxes but cost almost $30 billion (statistics for which you provided no source.)  But let’s assume the statistic is true.  The reason for the disparity (workers costing more than they pay in taxes) is because they’re poor, not because they’re illegal.  A poor person pays little in tax, but will be far more likely to require subsidized school lunches, use Medicaid, be uninsured and therefore require expensive emergency room visits to public hospitals, and so on.  A rich person, by contrast, pays a lot in tax (generally) but is unlikely to use public services like Medicaid and the emergency room at the local public hospital.  They don’t need subsidized school lunches. 

     

    In our economy we're always going to have a class of people who cost more than they contrute in taxes.  They're called poor people.  Fixing our illegal immigration situation won't change this fact, so it's a red herring to this discussion; not relevant.  But we have to acknowledge that these workers make an enormous contribution to our society.  We need people to do this work.  

    There’s nothing in that line of argument that could be considered “blaming the rich”. 

    You say that “For workers and their cost to the fed, if you legalized them all at once, all 20 Million, they would put a huge drain on the economy for the very reason that the tax from their wages is less than the services they require for living.”  This doesn’t make any sense.  These 20 million people are already here.  If you legalize them then we have a mechanism to collect income taxes.  Legalizing them will increase the amount that they contribute to the government.  This would improve our fiscal balance. 

    Finally, you comment “Maybe once you get past the first generation, the next generation will increase their education and things will be better, but only time will tell.”  I’m not sure what you mean by this (things getting better) but the bottom line is that our country needs people to pick lettuce, pick citrus, clean buildings, kill hogs, dig ditches and carry drywall.  You're not going to find a lettuce picker - legal, illegal, blue, green or purple - who generates a net positive tax impact.

     

    The one notable thing about illegals, however, is that they pay into Social Security without ever getting anything back out.  Wanna see a negative tax drain?  Wait till the baby boomers retire...then you'll see some fiscal fireworks.    

    on Earning our citizenship:  You state that “The American Dream has never been given to anyone on a silver platter...people have to earn it. If you don't earn it, then it means nothing to you.”  I couldn’t agree more!  Now here’s my question to you:  Who’s earned their stripes as an American more: a well educated, well funded immigrant who files his paperwork, pays his fees, and stands in line (perhaps while working as a Realtor in Orlando, Florida) or a Mexican who has spent twenty five years cleaning a building for ExxonMobil in Houston or butchering hogs in Mississippi, providing goods and services for Americans at minimum wage while she raises American kids.  We’re going to accept decades of that woman’s labor with a wink and a nod, then suggest that we’ve handed her something on a silver platter?

    Ok...this is the last coment I'm gonna make for a while.  It's been interesting discussing this; primarily w/ you, Simon, John and Andrea.  Good luck!

    10:01am • #85
    9 Featured Posts
    And I can't resist one last note to Simon on your shoot-to-kill double border fence:  No American soldier or marine will ever shoot an unarmed Mexican who is running across a field in the hopes of finding a job in the United States frying hamburgers or picking oranges .  I was an Army officer, I know soldiers, and I know that soldiers will be incapable of carrying out this order.  The American soldier has a moral compass that few Americans truly appreciate, and many soldiers have given their lives in Iraq and Afghanistan because of their unwillingness to endanger unarmed non-combatants.  An American fighting man will never train his M-60 on a group of illegal workers swimming the Rio Grande.  Never. 
    10:15am • #86
    111,290 Points 10 Featured Posts Outside Blog

    Christopher - the information I reference is from the Center of Immigration Studies which is a non-partisan, non-political group. Legalizing 20 million people will put a drain on the economy no matter how you try to spin it. The amount of taxes they will pay will not come near what they cost in state and federal programs. The poor use more programs and pay little in taxes. Millions of illegals do not work so they would not contribute anything to the tax base, but would utilize government services to live and thus cost the economy more.

    I don't think putting in your time toiling in a field, as you put it, as an illegal and breaking the law qualifies you for immediate citizenship. Let's be honest, not all illegal immigrants have been here for 20 years. Millions just got here in the last five years. If you want to become a citizen, then put an effort into it by going through the process like Simon did. Simon has been doing it right and it has taken 7 years for him to become a citizen in 2008. So yes, if you grant all illegals immediate citizenship, they will be getting it handed to them the easy way, which is not the American way. If you give them a path to follow, then slowly absorbing into the population will be the best bet for the economy, and they will appreciate becoming an American more.

    As for social security, I truly think the whole thing should be abolished. When baby boomers retire, it most likely will get sucked dry. So right now, I pay into a system that probably won't exist for me in 40 years.

    10:58am • #87
    123,183 Points Outside Blog
    The "non-partisan" Center for Immigration Studies promotes itself in its Mission Statement as advocating a "low immigration vision which seeks fewer immigrants".  This statistical source doesn't sound all that non-partisan to me.
    11:09am • #88
    111,290 Points 10 Featured Posts Outside Blog

    Eric, why don't you quote their entire mission statement instead of picking words out of it to try and make an argument.

    Our Mission
    It is the Center's mission to expand the base of public knowledge and understanding of the need for an immigration policy that gives first concern to the broad national interest. The Center is animated by a pro-immigrant, low-immigration vision which seeks fewer immigrants but a warmer welcome for those admitted.

    They are pro-immigrant, which you happened to leave out, but seek to limit immigration, so that our country doesn't have a "come one, come all" immigration policy. Please don't try and mislead people.

    2:14pm • #89
    JAN
    04
    2008
    123,183 Points Outside Blog

    Jennifer, I leave it to anyone who wishes to examine that site to determine if they truly believe it is "non partisan".

    A mission statement which is predicated upon the words "low immigration" and "fewer immigrants" is not pro immigrant.

    Calling that site non-partisan is something like putting perfume on a pig.

    10:46pm • #90
    123,183 Points Outside Blog

    Christopher, I agree that our government is unlikely to ever approve the idea of shooting those who attempt to cross the border.  Here's why.

    The act of shooting unarmed civilians, including those of foreign nationality, would fall under the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court in the Hague, Netherlands.  Among the offenses classified as punishable under international law, are

    • Directing attacks against civilians
    • Murder
    • Summary execution without trial

    A government-ordered policy authorizing that border crossers be shot (in effect, summarily executed without trial), would likely fall under the jurisdiction of the Hague Court.  There is a well-established body of International Humanitarian Law which also covers such offenses.

    Christopher, it would be an excellent idea to place your post in the Hispanic Real Estate Professionals group

    11:02pm • #91
    JAN
    05
    2008
    393,154 Points 15 Featured Posts Outside Blog

    Hi Simon:  In your comment above, you are for giving "shoot to kill" orders to the US military who would guard your double-fence border.  Then you would give employers who get caught employing illegal aliens a ten-day suspension for the first offense, and for the second offense you would close their businesses.  Question:  If fair is fair, if we should shoot those trying to come across the border illegally, why don't we shoot the employers, too ?  And the lenders who give mortgages to illegal aliens, let's shoot them, too.  How bout the Realtors who sell to illegal aliens ?  Let's shoot them !  And apartment managers who rent to illegal aliens.  Shoot them also.  Why... I guess... because... Simon Says !

    I ask you... WWJS ?   Who Would Jesus Shoot ?

    12:32am • #92
    226,904 Points 22 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

    Hi, Christopher: I'll admit, there is an awful lot of pandering to the electorate where immigration is concerned.  That we need reform is not in question. The current immigration laws need to be enforced until real honest to goodness reform can be accomplished. 

    We need to make the immigration system much easier and less expensive to navigate.  We also need to take those businesses that exploit illegal immigrant labor by the scruff of the neck and strip them of every cent of profit they made by using that same illegal immigrant labor. 

    We are a welcoming society... there are just a few that have run out of tolerance for folks climbing over the proverbial fence in the middle of the night.  Quite frankly, I don't care if an illegal immigrant spent 20 years diligently working in a Tyson Chicken plant or spent 20 years selling drugs on a street corner.  The base problem is that he/she is here illegally.  Crimes committed post-immigration are a separate matter; please don't try to tie them together.

    I also can't agree with your last paragraph. If we deported all 23+MM illegal immigrants, it would have an impact on some businesses.  However, all crops would not rot... all poultry and meat would not disappear from grocery stores... all hotels would not shut down and certainly not all residential construction would come to a screeching halt. 

    What would happen is that those businesses employing slave labor, which is in essence what they are doing, would be forced to pay market labor rates.  This would undoubtedly cut into their bottom lines, which I could really care less about.  Those who chose to remain open would be forced to sacrifice some profitability for legality. 

     

    2:08am • #93
    226,904 Points 22 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

    Hi, Christopher: I'll admit, there is an awful lot of pandering to the electorate where immigration is concerned.  That we need reform is not in question. The current immigration laws need to be enforced until real honest to goodness reform can be accomplished. 

    We need to make the immigration system much easier and less expensive to navigate.  We also need to take those businesses that exploit illegal immigrant labor by the scruff of the neck and strip them of every cent of profit they made by using that same illegal immigrant labor. 

    We are a welcoming society... there are just a few that have run out of tolerance for folks climbing over the proverbial fence in the middle of the night.  Quite frankly, I don't care if an illegal immigrant spent 20 years diligently working in a Tyson Chicken plant or spent 20 years selling drugs on a street corner.  The base problem is that he/she is here illegally.  Crimes committed post-immigration are a separate matter; please don't try to tie them together.

    I also can't agree with your last paragraph. If we deported all 23+MM illegal immigrants, it would have an impact on some businesses.  However, all crops would not rot... all poultry and meat would not disappear from grocery stores... all hotels would not shut down and certainly not all residential construction would come to a screeching halt. 

    What would happen is that those businesses employing slave labor, which is in essence what they are doing, would be forced to pay market labor rates.  This would undoubtedly cut into their bottom lines, which I could really care less about.  Those who chose to remain open would be forced to sacrifice some profitability for legality. 

     

    2:09am • #94
    347,837 Points 15 Featured Posts Outside Blog

    Karen Anne - it would really help if you actually read the comments. When it comes to the ten day suspension of a business licence and then the removal of it for a second offense, that is not my idea, that is now the law in Arizona as of 1/1/2008. I understand that Texas is considering a similar law.

    The lenders who lend to illegal immigrants should tell us if they are informing them of the 10% rule? The Realtors should too. Because if that is not going on then it is certainly fraud and a breach of ethics.

    By the way, before you get so judgemental, you should perhaps read my post on this subject on my blog.

    You seem to want to allow everyone in and so now I will sit back and wait to read the Karen Anne proposal.

    8:49am • #95

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    Christopher Smith

    Houston, TX

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