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What Came First, The Chicken or the Egg?

Ohio City's Main Strip Architecture courtesy of ohiocity.com Hey All You Don Quixote Home Builders....Were you the chickens or the eggs? Did neighborhoods start to get revitalized before you built new construction homes or condos? Or did you go into the neighborhoods and lead the way?

To a large extent, a lot of Home Builders seem like they enjoy a good challenge, playing the odds. What made home builders decide to go into urban areas and take a chance and revitalize a neighborhood? Americans have always been drawn to pick up and move farther out, claim a stake and put up a white picket fence, So it seems less risky to me to be a builder in the suburbs.

I'm talking about the builders who went into the neighborhoods and said OK, let's build. We have a neighborhood in Cleveland called Ohio City (my office is located there). Before I left in the 70s, people were talking about how that area was going to be revitalized. It took a while, but now it is a mix of old and new, fancy and eccentric, every ethnic group represented by a restaurant in only a two mile radius (I of course love this part). But some people had to be the pioneers, and some of those pioneers were builders. I also know that redevelopment corporations played a big part in helping to restore structures like Churches and other historic properties. There was partnership monies available in the wild west of revitalizing decaying neighborhoods. But builders intrigue me. In most Cleve's oldest indr/outdr mkt...since 1840, Ohio CIty, courtesy City of Cleveland neighborhoods, it was NOT a matter of 'if you build it they will come.'

This is making me pensive today. I went on a second listing appointment to work with a newer town home complex with just a few more to sell. It is in a neighborhood I have blogged about before. A non sexy but wonderful neighborhood full of working class people, industries, shops, parks and soon to be brand spanking new schools. But not much new construction! The average house sale in this neighborhood last year was below $100,000. Yet a few years ago, an enterprising builder went into the neighborhood and put up town homes at almost twice that sale price. And it has not been an easy sell. Did the pioneering builders in other neighborhoods that now ARE considered sexy, sacrifice themselves for the good of the people?

Don't get me started on urban sprawl, that is for another post or series of ten posts lol. A city stays vibrant because of it's neighborhoods. I am so thankful there were pioneers in building. We have all sorts of non profits working together to help rebuild neighborhoods. I get the connection between government and non-profits and jobs and schools. What intrigues me are the builders.

Who were the builders who pioneered in your neighborhoods? And if you are a builder, what are your insights on this. I bet I am not the only one intrigued by this.

Peace Out - 3C

Posted by Carole Cohen Realtor®, ePRO on 01/04/2007 06:13 PM

Comments (62)

cleveland history, cleveland neighborhoods, community development, new construction, 3c, cleveland

This post has been included in Ohio Information Cuyahoga County, OH Information Cleveland, OH Information

62 Comments on What Came First, The Chicken or the Egg?

JAN

2007

3C: I bet the Rain gods are THRILLED with this post... it SCREAMS LOCALISM. THIS is GREAT community/consumer based blog... and your personality is coming thru loud and clear.

After reading what you wrote... I'd actually like to visit Ohio City. And that is something considering how I feel about Cleveland! LOL

Oh no, Carole, not pensive adiago? I wonder how many builders on are this site? I also would like to hear what they have to say. Great post BTW..!

Hi Fav Craig: well it was on my mind today lol. And if it gets you to Cleveland sometime then that alone will be worth it LOL Thank you for your kind words. Ohio City awaits you.

Karen, pensive is the way I am most of the time! Othewise I'd never get anything done. We don't have that many builders I dont think, but you never know!

Great post, Carole. Consumers will enjoy this, I think. We saw so much of the same thing happening in the greater Boston area, especially as prices started to go up. Ohio City sounds much like some parts of Cambridge where I lived and worked.

Jeff

It's possible there are some similarities Jeff. Now if we can get the jobs in Ohio City that are in Cambridge we will be all set :-)

I'm still mad that the Browns left Cleveland all those years ago but I'll be objective here. Your post made me miss the city. (Being from Pittsburgh - it's a 'burgh thing.)

I loved "It took a while, but now it is a mix of old and new, fancy and eccentric, every ethnic group represented by a restaurant. That's what I miss about the city.

Carole...

I am intrigued by Builder's as well. But not in the same way you are. My intrigue goes in the other direction.

Being in Florida we are subject to quite the mix of Builder's. We have good Builder's and bad Builder's. The bad Builder's are the ones that jack up prices using their own in house lender's. So many people here have been ripped off by Builder's. When we go to list a house that is only a year old we find out that a Buyer paid waaay too much for the house and they are unable to get out from under the mortgage and debt that was created by a Builder. This is causing a foreclosure problem here. It 's killing me to watch this happen to so many young people that trusted the Builder that did this to them. :(

Now, we also have really good Builder's in our farm area. Their houses are priced right and they are not ripping people off. They are reputable businesses that we have known for many many years. But the fact that they are reputable makes it hard for them to compete with bad Builder's. It's hard to watch this too.

So, yes I am intrigued. I guess there's good vs bad in every aspect of life and business. :)

Bingo. Checking out (good way of putting that) with the PASSION. Sorry folks that's just a little game I play with my Passion fruit.

TLW "The Lovely Wife"...Hey Hun Get Me A Beer Will Ya? LOL...ROAR!

Carole... I live and work in a small town..I can't imagine what your cities are like LOL...country chick here..my town Hampstead maybe pushing 8000 people. Jeff mentioned Cambridge Mass...which I can relate to and that is very Big to me. Great post Carole..well deserving the gold star!

Here's a cuervo with lime :-) TLW you are saying that builders have their own lenders. Instead of the chicken or the egg its the fox in the chicken coop lol. We have some of the larger national builders here but also a pretty good selection of home grown builders who do quality work. I'd be happier if price points were lower on much of the new construction but I guess that is pie in the sky. I do know one builder who is getting ready to do the best development I've seen here. So that's exciting.

Moni: we must have been typing at the same time, as usual! Yes, city decay and then revitalization is a whole other ball of wax lol. Your town must have builders though no? Or do you just always keep up what you already have? I'm on the other end, never really knew much about small town living. We can compare notes lol

Here in St. paul we have district councils and small area plans. I participate in the district council process and have been on the board so I guess I can honestly say that I have had a hand in various projects in St. paul. i have also opposed some and supported others that did not make it. I have a great relationship with our city council representative and have been known to talk to our mayor when i really need to vent.

I was out showing homes in an area that the builders have transformed from being mostly small starter homes on tiny urban (suburban-urban) lots to being half million and up infill housing. Unfortunately there is one particular builder who is known for his low quality homes. He's got at least a dozen homes sitting. This area was never 'blighted' or even in need of revitalization, but redevelopment has completely changed it from how it was when I was a kid.

That's interesting Teresa, and St. Paul is not that small. I have been getting to know my councilman who is also the Council President. Our redevelopment centers though are really at the core of neighborhood revitalization here in Cleveland City. We have a lot of non-profit grassroots groups too. Cleveland had this amazing grass roots structure and a belief in business and residential partnerships...this was when I moved away. I got to Maryland and was disappointed in my City there, everyone wanted to treat business owners like they were four horned devils.....there was not much love lost between developers and residents there lol. Here we have a few developers, like Forest City, who are very instrumental in the coming shape of downtown Cleveland, but our business partners, (large manufacturing companies, other biggies like Eaton, they are the ones who have stepped in during the really lean years to try to get things moving.

HHHHmmmmmm I think neither.... I think it was the caveman that made the chicken that hatched the egg. But what do I know.

Carole.... awesome post...well written. And I am intrigued because it made me think of the city of Philly... and then grabs my attention to the suburbs and how they can either hurt or help a city.

Overall, I loved your opening paragraph. And I myself would love to hear a builders take on this. Basically stating as you did, are you a leader or a follower? And how would you go about helping the growth of an area, in regards to business and such. I believe a builder can help influence this. As I have said before, I took Architecture and Landscape Architecture courses in college. I was going to major in this...but long story. Hence, business was easier at the end.

Anyhoo.... Carole... I need to check out your Ohio City blog.... thanks

MO, we must have crossed typing, a lot of that happening! So you have the starter homes next to the new infill luxury home? In a way that sounds kind of cool. I think so far everyone is describing a totally differnt building environment. We have one local builder - I'm not that impressed with the quality of his work. So I hear you. In your case though it sounds like consumers know it too. Here we have one national builder with that reputation :-)

Jeff there are plenty of times I wish I could go back and get a degree in Urban Studies. But I've gone back too many times (to school) now. We have builders who are definitely paving the way like you say. I was just wondering how difficult it must have been to be a ground breaker. I feel the pain of the builder in my neighborhood listed above.

Carole, the downtown area of where I live (Middletown, CT) has been going through a lot of renovation including housing, and the downtown is starting to get some life back into it again. The downtown area was almost dead a few years ago, but now it is actually becoming a place to go.

Great blog, interesting topic. Has provided inspiration for a blog that I'm writing now.

George: so your town had mixed use development going on, at least that is what it sounds like. I like the theory that unless the core cities are thriving it's really hard for the outer ring and inner ring suburbs to thrive as well. Cleveland is starting to look at things regionally now; that I think might help. Well, as long as the outer 'region' is friendly to us lol

Melissa hi! And thank you. I can hear the wheels turning in your head now :-)

Linda! I must be tired tonight I just saw your comment, I am so sorry. Pittsburgh has done a great job with the downtown no? There is that glass building in Downtown Pittsburgh that looks lilke a church; it is gorgeous. If you ever come back for a visit maybe we can lure you to Cleveland too. As long as the Steelers don't slink away like the Browns did lol.

Carole,

I haven't seen a builder show up here yet. Maybe they are someone Active Rainers need to start inviting!

Carole, the wheels are turning but are getting sleepy. I think I'll end up finishing it tomorrow.

Great post. It is a wonderful thing to see a neighborhood come to life. I have met clients who raved about their neigborhood in the city. Living in the country with the houses far apart does not allow me to have that experience.

I've always bee n the Chicken person myself...

John Occhi, Hemet Realtor
www.JohnOcchi.Com

JAN

2007

Builders are a different breed. I am too chicken to be a builder. i would rather sell the eggs they lay.

Hi Carole, love the post but don't really have anything to add. My area Poinciana Fl, which is the only place I have ever sold Real Estate, was nothing but cow pastures and tress before being changed into the second fastest growing PUD in the country. The oldest properties were bilut in 1973.

Karen: I am not aware of that many builders on AR, at least not active ones. Crossville and Synergy are the only ones I have seen posting or commenting. I would definitely like builder perspective too

Jennifer: I don't know if I could be happy unless I had the bustle of a city around me. We moved when I was in High School, lots of land, no sidewalks; it scarred me for life LOL. Joking, but it was way too isolating for me, especially being used to living in the middle of Cleveland up to that point.

John: lol thanks for that!

Randy: very eloquent lmao I could be a trailblazer but I think I'm a bit too faint of heart for that kind of pioneering too.

Bryant: I guess in 30 years or so you will know if this becomes a pertinent discussion in Ponciana! 1973, what is the closest 'old city?'

Carole, This is a great post. I love the photo. "Heils Block" CITY BUDDHA - What is that? Is that building being re developed into an apartment building?

What came first the chicken or the egg? - That is the $64,000 question. I think it's a little bit of both. I have seen neighborhoods change after a new development comes in, usually retail follows. I think we are going to see more re-urbanization and a lot less suburbanization. Cities are making a big come-back. I think builders who take a risk and develop fringe areas can buy the buildings or land at much lower prices than if they were to develop in an already desirable area.

Gentrification intrigues me also. I've seen neighborhoods go from "West Side Story" to Yuppie City.

Carole,

Thanks for the post. I agree with Craig, Ohio City sounds like my kind of place. So many inner city areas are going through this type of transition. My observations in the northeast have been that those with little money and lots of elbow grease have been the pioneers. Followed by the big money boys, who see the interest of the common man and a way to make big money!

TLW, igot some of that passion fruit as well!

Carole - Great topic for research down here in the Phoenix area - who were the builders? Del Webb was one of them to be sure, but I'm sure there were many more.

Carole...Kissimmee is the answer to that question. :)

William...Ahhhh. The Passion. :)

I say the egg - eggs are for breakfast and chicken is for dinner. You should eat breakfast before you eat dinner! :-)

very different and thoughtful blog. Builders are a different beast all together. I have worked with a few throught the years and it seemed that the ones I worked with anyway were all about numbers. I am talking about your Net Return period. Perhaps that builder could pay a certain amount per square footage and knew he would get such and such profit back. I doubt that builders risk themselves. for the good of the community. I know that some have the reputation of helping beautifying the area..but at the end its mostly so their "name" is respected. I am keeping this blog..Now its mine, mine, mine, mine. Seriously its refreshing you are presenting an idealistic view of some builders, though I doubt you really think they are so innocent and giving.Perhaps good builders can also be winners.

Hi Mitchell,

We have a lot of buildings from that time frame that are named after the people who built them; that is the case with the Heil Block building; only in his case, since it's a corner building, he decided the entire block is his? lol I know how you love old buildings too so not surprised you honed in on that- CIty Budha is the retail shop in there now; if you need a budha for your desk let me know LOL It's a few storefronts away from my office. I hope it's a real shift in thinking, re-urbanization; although keeping a bit of 'west side story' is kind of cool too :-) I'll add a few more photos to this I think. Yuppies and DINCs lol

William: Typical scenario then and I like it; those without pave the way and then the money guys come in and take less risk but make big bucks. lol I can think of a few places, like seacoast mill towns that remind me of Ohio City, in the Northeast.

Tony: Cool that you can ID the pioneer builder, or one of them. This kind of history fascinates you too I can tell.

TLW: Kissimmee! Has to be one of my favorite Florida names how fun! I always think there should be a bird named after that. Or maybe there is LOL You and William are full of passion :-)

Suzanne: - eggs are for breakfast and chicken is for dinner. You should eat breakfast before you eat dinner! :-) That is classic!

Lloyd: You bring up a good point and a 'duh' one for me, as in, 'why didn't I think of that.' For sure a developer here now is going to spend less on a parcel of land in a 'west side story' area rather than an already yuppified area. Still some risk though! But good point.

Carole,

I see you added a new picture that building looks really interesting like a hangar at an airport? I agree I miss some of the ma pa stores, Banana Republic is getting boring.

A huge store of Buddha's..OMG...I will have to come to Cleveland to rub the bellies. lol

Hi Mitchell! That is The West Side Market; it was built and up and running as an indoor outdoor food market in 1840 and has been a destination point for Clevelanders since then. The Heil building is on a North corner, the W Side Market about ten storefronts down on the south corner of the block. It's a grand building; the only thing that was close to it (to me) was Faneul Hall in Boston (which now probably has your Banana Republic in it) I love this market! I'm going to do a whole post about it in a few weeks. As a single person, I go in and ask for an apple or two and they think I'm nuts so they give me six! LOL

You have the Mecca of Old buildings in NYC but we still have a nice collection!

Yes please come and visit! Lots of Budha bellies for good luck I saw one you could have shipped back to your home, it's about four feet high :-)

Carole,

I love how the City of Buddha kept the integrity of the building with their sign on the front. Is it designated a landmark? The West Side market looks incredible. It's huge. Is it just produce or everything?

Mitchell,

I'll have to check but I bet it is a landmark; Ohio City takes landmarks very seriously. You are right! The signage is perfect for City Budha. The veggies and fruit are outdoors, in a newer annex (not pictured above); it's covered, but open on two sides so a tad chilly in the winter but thats good for veggies lol. The building houses everything from butchers, pastry vendors, cheese, middle eastern food (Judy's Oasis is my favorite), homemade pastas and sauces, fresh fish, the whole gammut. Also local Cleveland food like pierogi and other 'lead weight' food lol Have you ever had a pierogi? I bet they don't make them in NYC lol I buy coffee there too, City Roast!

Carole, very interesting post. I'm seeing the same thing in few of our communities here in Florida. One particular area is Haines City. There are definately a mixture of old and new. By the way, the chicken came first.

Netta, I hope you post about it! And as for the chicken/egg: what about cloning :-)

Is Pierogi like a potato ravioli, i might be mixing it up with something else. The West side market sounds great I can hang out there all day.

You are right, only about three times larger than the normal ravioli lol. I can't believe you knew what it was. You get an A. They can be potato, potato and cheese, fruit, shredded cabbage, I think it all depends on the ethnicity of the person making them. And yes (you've seen my pumpkin head picture lol) I can hang out there all day too.

Kissimmee during the day...Kiss A Me...At night. SVW...TLW...ROAR!

LOL Hi TLW, are you saying if I buy you libations at the West Side Market you and I will smooch? :-)

3C glad to see the this blog SCREAMS LOCALISM.

I smell a future blog!

Carole - I love the kind of neighborhoods that you are describing, new mixed with old - quirky - different and fun! I grew up around Chicago's Old Town before it went completely yuppie.... I loved it. Crate and Barrel was a crappy little storefront operation where you could go buy jelly jars to use as glassware.

*sigh*

FC: You have a good nose for the future LOL And thank you vm for the star :-) I need to go check and see if it's in localism lol. Do we have to check?

Angus that neighborhood sounds like it was fun. I bet there are still old style main street shops in some places in Chicago! I remember a candy/news shop on my street growing up; I was about five and my cousin was in town for the summer working at Ford to make money for college; he'd take me with him, and exchange comic books, which were stacked up at the door, like a comic book library! It amazes me today.

Carole- This is a great post. We do not really have that kind of thing going on here. Our downtown areas are getting more "lofts" but nothing major. I really, really, liked reasing this. You more than deserved the Gold Star!

TY Mariana and hi! Lofts are good for business so that part is good! You have enough natural beauty there to make up for a lack of old buildings I bet

JAN

2007

Carole.. aka 3C.. is that your street name? :)) I like that you call an area 'sexy'.. so I'm not the only one!! plus lots of ethnics restaurant makes for sexy eating! and Carole.. those last words clue me into a part of you.."peace out".. hee heee.. love it. Here is another (and its not a car) I'm Audi 5000-G (Audi as in "Outta here") or in this case, Audi 5000-C ,.. and I thought that 'c' is for cookie... C is for Carole!!

other C's.. cool, clever, comforting, chilly, coolheaded, caring, carismatic, cat lover, cheerful, companion or champion!! How's that?!

Hey Nick: cat lover but not the domestic kind, at least not in my house LOL Audie take a dog though lol. Yes, 3C is my ethernet street name, named by Craig Schiller, for cleveland carole cohen but I thank you for the complimentary (another C) descriptions above. The United States is nothing but a conglomeration (another C) of ethnicity and I love that fact almost more than anything else. Peace Out Nick!

Well in the early 70's there were a lot of head shops (my personal fav was Bizarre Bazaar...) does that count for local flavor?

ANGUS: OMG ! LOLOL Yeah that counts as local color for sure - probably even psychedelic color

Of course there were also great jazz clubs, comedy clubs (the original Second City Theater was there... Belushu, Akroyd, Case etc...) and little hole in the wall shops. The yearly art fair was also great (now very commercial)

I bought my first big collared, flowered print shirt down there in the mid 70's... which I proceeded to wear with my red plaid "elephant" bell bottoms.... I was stylin'

OOOOOH I hope you have a photo lol Great visual even without one :-)

See, Chicago had it going on! And it's not every city that has a musical named after it!

JAN

2007

You would love the novel SWAP by Sam Moffie. It has a Cleveland Indian/Northeast Ohio background.

Thanks Harry I love reading suggestions and this sounds perfect!

JAN

2007

Carole, I can't believe I missed this post of yours a week ago, and I am proud to comment, even late.

I do totally love home building. I grew up in a new homes sales environment too, dad sold new homes through the 70's. I've had the chance to meet and get to know a lot of these men and women who call themselves home builders.

First, suburban sprawl is a problem. Most home builders today know that. We have recently fought politicians here in Porter County Indiana who wanted to mandate 10 acre estate lots "only." This merely uses up hundreds of acres and creates an elistist satisfaction.

Second, urban in-fill and revitalization is a huge opportunity. Neighborhoods can be rebuilt and community recreated where it may have been lost. Now the truth is that urban work tends to be a much larger risk, frankly it's just not as easy. So my experience has been that those who make money in the suburbs get to a point in their careers and pocketbooks that they can finally afford to re-invest in urban areas.

I don't know why the national builders, with huge pockets, don't do more. It seems to me they would try to dominate this market.

I am aware of at least one regional developer here in Indiana, Kosene Development, that has made a major committment to urban renewal and redevelopment. I've met them but don't have anything to do with their company personally. I toured their stuff in Indianapolis recently and was quite impressed with what they could accomplish and make look timeless.

More builders will look to urban ... they'll be forced to because the national builders are pushing them out of business in the suburbs.

Wow Steve, thank you. I appreciate your insight. I would tend to agree with you (though you have more experience!) that a more established builder would take the risk in an area where no new construction exists. And I applaud you for the veto of the 10 acre 'estates' It really is hard to legislate agains people who still want to sprawl, but if the incentives for building are for the 'other projects' then so be it! lol Thank you and I'm off to check out Kosene now. PS I have NO idea how you found all the blogs you did, no worries a bout not finding this one!)

JAN

2007

Carole I found your post from the week in review, and I'm glad I did. I can tell you that for the most part, it doesn't begin with builders, it begins with someone with a vision who has an interest in restoration or preservation. The University of Miami's school of architecture is big on urban planning and redevelopment and there's many studies that show that mixed-use small downtowns is where to put the money. There's been a study here in Miami Shores that began many years ago for our DownTown area and it began with the actual residents and the local chamber of commerce doing a Charrette - now the builders will put our plan into work. There are many communities that would benefit from this and a lot of builders that are paying attention - I only cross my fingers and hope an Urban Planner is behind them to help so they don't ruin the existing infrastructures. Thanks for a great post!

Ines good morning! You make a good point about master planning frequently leading the way, It sounds like you approve of at least some of what they have planned for your area? Usually you can attend planning committee meetings (in my other life in Maryland I used to do this) and comment during the public portion of it. Thank you for your thoughtful comments!

I do exactly that Carole - I am involved whith the town committee meetings and Rick is a director on the board of our Local Chamber of Commerce. And yes I approve a lot of what is planned for our area except that there are always those scared of CHANGE who make it really difficult.

Carole...I am just reading through all of Leanne's AR Week In Review ...it's always fun to read your posts because it feels like visiting you in person. I can hardly wait to hear your Urban Sprawl series. Be sure to let the folks at the ECO group know when it comes out!

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