Sara,

WOW! I found this through a Google Surch!  Good For You!  Thank you for the call out, I will always try to keep you supported.

You are right about most of the items you point out - if fact most are the reasons that my company was formed the way it was (By An Appraiser - For Appraisers Non Lender Owned)  :)

Just for the record,I do not have any appraisers in the network from your area.  There may be some things different in the North West, but I think you have most of it correct.

Most of the comments were right on the money.  If I can get the bigger companies out there to match what I am trying to offer - higer fee splits, education promoting and discounts for the appraiser and required USPAP & RESPA disclosure & promotion then half of my job and goal will have been reached

Wish me luck.

P.S.

Thank you for noticing

Hi Sara

Wow so much has happened and it's pretty interesting (in a not so good way)  the management companies in this area send their work to the lowest bidder. While they allow the appraiser to set their fee their offices call and tell you "the appraisers getting the most work in your are are being paid $125 for a full URAR" wow, that appraiser must be spending alot of time on due diligence!  The AMC's also "require" the report done in 24 to 48hrs from inspection, while this is completely reasonable on "cookie cutters" the more complex jobs cannot be done properly in this time frame especially when you take into consideration that the AMC's rarely provide the sales contract, give incorrect contact information, and are very slow to respond to needs for more information while demanding a "response within 2 hours".  Cuomo's "agreement" is asking for the cheapest appraiser to do the quickest turn time and once again the appraiser is being blamed for the mortgage mess.  So far the responses I have seen from some funders and AMC's do not in any way improve the manner in which appraisers do their job or maintain a better educated group of appraiser or a more through report.   This appears to be a politial move by Cuomo to say "we are doing something" that something is smoke and mirrors!

In regard to AMCs, consider this, supported by Pam Crowley. We need to stop sp;itting fees, stop workinf for amcs that take our profits and work for ourselves....

A Call To All From: http://by126w.bay126.mail.live.com/mail/ApplicationMain_12.4.0080.0327.aspx?culture=en-US&hash=3612997648#  
  We need to present the idea and the option of the formation of an appraiser TRUE cooperative to every appraiser in the United States.  We need to offer the opportunity to participate to every appraiser in the United States.  After the response to that offer, we can organize with fair representation.  Some of you have skills and resources in the area of information distribution. A universal media blitz.  I am asking that anyone who desires to assist in the above contact me at http://etrac.biz/EMC/mailtNationalValuationService@yahoo.com and we will set up a network to get the word out. This is going to be efficient. We have a wonderful window of opportunity right now. We are not going to bog down with pet programs and personal agendas. I will say in advance, now, that if in this initial move you feel you are utilized below your potential, do not take it personally, there will be ample opportunity for you to do your thing.   This effort is separate, in addition to, and of course inclusive of the IVPI proposal if it is ratified . If not, it will stand alone.   More to Come, Richard D. Frank          http://www.nationalvaluationservice.org/   We are now a growing group of more than 1000 individuals and businesses from across the USA interested in coming together for the betterment of the financial industry and to improve our Appraiser profession for the individual appraiser as well as the businesses we have worked hard to establish.    

Seven internationally recognized cooperative principles are to be followed:

• Voluntary and Open Membership
• Democratic Member Control
• Member Economic Participation
• Autonomy and Independence
• Education, Training and Information
• Cooperation Among Cooperatives
• Concern for Community

In the days ahead, you will be provided materials and infolinks as we work toward establishing a cooperative type of entity.  

Cooperatives-

• Are owned and democratically controlled by their members (YOU) - the people who use the co-op's services or buy its goods-not by outside investors; Co-op members (YOU) elect their board of director from within the membership.
• Return surplus revenues (income over expenses and investment) to members (YOU)proportionate to their use of the cooperative, not proportionate to their "investment" or ownership share.
• Are motivated not by profit, but by service-to meet their members' (YOU) needs for affordable and high quality goods or services;
• Exist solely to serve their members (YOU).
• Pay taxes on income kept within the co-op for investment reserves. Surplus revenues from the co-op are returned to individual members (YOU) who pay taxes on that income.

  More to Come, Richard D. Frank       note: the http://etrac.biz/EMC/mailtNationalValuationService@yahoo.com email account  was set up as a catch all email account for convenience. It is a free       uncluttered dedicated account only used for these correspondences in order to keep them separate and not flood other email accounts in use.

In regard to AMCs, consider this, supported by Pam Crowley. We need to stop sp;itting fees, stop workinf for amcs that take our profits and work for ourselves....

A Call To All From: http://by126w.bay126.mail.live.com/mail/ApplicationMain_12.4.0080.0327.aspx?culture=en-US&hash=3612997648#  
  We need to present the idea and the option of the formation of an appraiser TRUE cooperative to every appraiser in the United States.  We need to offer the opportunity to participate to every appraiser in the United States.  After the response to that offer, we can organize with fair representation.  Some of you have skills and resources in the area of information distribution. A universal media blitz.  I am asking that anyone who desires to assist in the above contact me at http://etrac.biz/EMC/mailtNationalValuationService@yahoo.com and we will set up a network to get the word out. This is going to be efficient. We have a wonderful window of opportunity right now. We are not going to bog down with pet programs and personal agendas. I will say in advance, now, that if in this initial move you feel you are utilized below your potential, do not take it personally, there will be ample opportunity for you to do your thing.   This effort is separate, in addition to, and of course inclusive of the IVPI proposal if it is ratified . If not, it will stand alone.   More to Come, Richard D. Frank          http://www.nationalvaluationservice.org/   We are now a growing group of more than 1000 individuals and businesses from across the USA interested in coming together for the betterment of the financial industry and to improve our Appraiser profession for the individual appraiser as well as the businesses we have worked hard to establish.    

Seven internationally recognized cooperative principles are to be followed:

• Voluntary and Open Membership
• Democratic Member Control
• Member Economic Participation
• Autonomy and Independence
• Education, Training and Information
• Cooperation Among Cooperatives
• Concern for Community

In the days ahead, you will be provided materials and infolinks as we work toward establishing a cooperative type of entity.  

Cooperatives-

• Are owned and democratically controlled by their members (YOU) - the people who use the co-op's services or buy its goods-not by outside investors; Co-op members (YOU) elect their board of director from within the membership.
• Return surplus revenues (income over expenses and investment) to members (YOU)proportionate to their use of the cooperative, not proportionate to their "investment" or ownership share.
• Are motivated not by profit, but by service-to meet their members' (YOU) needs for affordable and high quality goods or services;
• Exist solely to serve their members (YOU).
• Pay taxes on income kept within the co-op for investment reserves. Surplus revenues from the co-op are returned to individual members (YOU) who pay taxes on that income.

  More to Come, Richard D. Frank       note: the http://etrac.biz/EMC/mailtNationalValuationService@yahoo.com email account  was set up as a catch all email account for convenience. It is a free       uncluttered dedicated account only used for these correspondences in order to keep them separate and not flood other email accounts in use.

In regard to AMCs, consider this, supported by Pam Crowley. We need to stop sp;itting fees, stop workinf for amcs that take our profits and work for ourselves....

A Call To All From: http://by126w.bay126.mail.live.com/mail/ApplicationMain_12.4.0080.0327.aspx?culture=en-US&hash=3612997648#  
  We need to present the idea and the option of the formation of an appraiser TRUE cooperative to every appraiser in the United States.  We need to offer the opportunity to participate to every appraiser in the United States.  After the response to that offer, we can organize with fair representation.  Some of you have skills and resources in the area of information distribution. A universal media blitz.  I am asking that anyone who desires to assist in the above contact me at http://etrac.biz/EMC/mailtNationalValuationService@yahoo.com and we will set up a network to get the word out. This is going to be efficient. We have a wonderful window of opportunity right now. We are not going to bog down with pet programs and personal agendas. I will say in advance, now, that if in this initial move you feel you are utilized below your potential, do not take it personally, there will be ample opportunity for you to do your thing.   This effort is separate, in addition to, and of course inclusive of the IVPI proposal if it is ratified . If not, it will stand alone.   More to Come, Richard D. Frank          http://www.nationalvaluationservice.org/   We are now a growing group of more than 1000 individuals and businesses from across the USA interested in coming together for the betterment of the financial industry and to improve our Appraiser profession for the individual appraiser as well as the businesses we have worked hard to establish.    

Seven internationally recognized cooperative principles are to be followed:

• Voluntary and Open Membership
• Democratic Member Control
• Member Economic Participation
• Autonomy and Independence
• Education, Training and Information
• Cooperation Among Cooperatives
• Concern for Community

In the days ahead, you will be provided materials and infolinks as we work toward establishing a cooperative type of entity.  

Cooperatives-

• Are owned and democratically controlled by their members (YOU) - the people who use the co-op's services or buy its goods-not by outside investors; Co-op members (YOU) elect their board of director from within the membership.
• Return surplus revenues (income over expenses and investment) to members (YOU)proportionate to their use of the cooperative, not proportionate to their "investment" or ownership share.
• Are motivated not by profit, but by service-to meet their members' (YOU) needs for affordable and high quality goods or services;
• Exist solely to serve their members (YOU).
• Pay taxes on income kept within the co-op for investment reserves. Surplus revenues from the co-op are returned to individual members (YOU) who pay taxes on that income.

  More to Come, Richard D. Frank       note: the http://etrac.biz/EMC/mailtNationalValuationService@yahoo.com email account  was set up as a catch all email account for convenience. It is a free       uncluttered dedicated account only used for these correspondences in order to keep them separate and not flood other email accounts in use.

Dear Sara,

I am not sure how I confused you but I usually think pretty outside the box... ;>)  or it could have been that real nice Petite Syrah that I had for dinner... It was really nice....

I dont like the idea of working with any AMC. I am a good appraiser with a great clientel and am upset at the idea of losing my clients. Basically they are legislating away my business...  If I have to work for an AMC, then Pam Crowley and the NVS are the only place I want to work. I think our sucess will come from working for just them and turning down all the AMC's that steal from us amd make us slaves. I have been on board with Pam from Day One... This is the only way we can succeed if AMC's become mandatory. If they dont at least I anticipate that they will be honest and fair....

Thanks for watching out for me though...

I appreciate you.

oh okay... then all is well....

Sara Syrah...

cute...

I JUST THINK IT IS CRAZY, THAT WE HAVE TO WORK 2 YEARS AS AN ASSISTANT OR 2500 HOURS, AND THEN YOU ARE FREE TO OBTAIN BUSINESS FROM LENDERS, BUT THEY GIVE WORK TO AMC, AND WE GET  CUT FEES AND THEN THEY ARE NOT REGULATED. THE PROBLEM IS THAT APPRAISERS ARE JUST PLAIN STUPID THIS IS OUR INDUSTRY WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO CONTROL OUR OWN DESTINY. THERE ARE 100,000 APPRAISERS COUNTRY WIDE. WHAT THE HELL ARE WE DOING CRYIN LIKE A BUNCH OF LITTLE GIRLS, IT IS WHAT IT IS. THIS HAPPENS BECAUSE WE LET IT HAPPEN. NOW IT WILL GET WORST. THE ONLY COMPANY THAT I WILL WORK FOR IS EAPPRAISIT, THEY DO NOT PAY GREAT BUT THEY ARE A VERY WELL RUNED COMPANY BUT THEY HAVE HAD PROBLEMS. BUT WHY DO I HAVE TOO GO THROUGH A AMC FOR WORK?????????????? THEY ARE NOT EVEN APPRAISERS. HOW ABOUT IF BORROWERS WOULD COME TO APPRAISERS FOR LOANS AND THEN WE SAY OK WE PICK A BANK FOR THEM AND MAKE MONEY BUT WE ARE NOT LICENSED FOR THAT BUT WE CHARGE $100.00 AND WE DECIDE WHICH BANK TO CHOOSE, WELL IT IS THE SAME THING THE AMC DO TO US. DEAL WITH IT OR LETS DO SOMETHING ABOUT. LETS CREATE A LIST (FREE OF CHARGE) OF GOOD HONEST APPRAISERS, WITH YOUR DEPARTMENT OF STATE, SOMETHING LIKE THAT,

PLEASE ANY COMMENTS

Appraisal Management Petition

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/AppraisalManagement/

Concerned Real Estate Appraisers, Lenders, and Consumers from across America Submit the attached petition (Which is posted on appraisalblogs.com):

To: Mr. Ben Henson - Executive Director
Appraisal Subcommittee (ASC)
Federal Financial Institutions Examination Council

email: benh1@asc.gov
cc: Other state or federal agencies with authority in the following matter:

"The ASC's mission is to ensure that real estate appraisers, who perform appraisals in real estate transactions that could expose the United States government to financial loss, are sufficiently trained and tested to assure competency and independent judgment according to uniform high professional standards and ethics." From the ASC website.

The concern of this petition has to do with "Unearned Fees, and Unqualified Appraisal Managers" in performing real estate appraisals.

We, the undersigned, represent a large number of licensed and certified real estate appraisers, lenders, and consumers in the United States, who seek your assistance in solving a problem facing us on a daily basis. Appraisal Management Companies (meaning any and all of the following: , AMC, Appraisal Servicing Companies, Appraisal Placement Companies, Appraisal Vendors, Appraisers, and Appraisal Companies) have individuals within their ranks, who, as a normal course of business, charge fees that exceed the amount that is actually paid to the licensed or certified appraiser that completes an appraisal assignment. The extra fees constitute unearned fees that are charged directly to the consumer. These companies typically do not staff or employee professionals that are qualified to accept appraisal assignments. The Appraisal Management Companies accept orders for appraisals. Then they contract this work out to independent fee appraisers and keep part of the appraisal fee that is charged to the consumer. The fees that the Appraisal Management Companies keep are in most instances titled as appraisal fees and consumers are not made aware that part of the "Appraisal Fee" is for Appraisal Management Services.
The banking community has been aware of this issue for many years. Bank, Lenders, Brokers, and other Financial or Lending Related Companies that want to profit from Appraisal Fees simply form Appraisal Management Companies in order to pass on excessive fees to unknowing consumers. When Appraiser complain about these unethical practices Lenders and Appraisal Management Companies answer these complaints with the following:

the withholding of business, and black listing honest appraisers.

We request that action be taken to hold the lenders and Appraisal Management Companies responsible for this type of violation and provide a penalty for any person or business who engages in the practice of charging unearned or excessive fees to consumers, not disclosing Appraisal Management Fees and or calling them Appraisal Fees, and Accepting Appraisal Orders for which they have no qualification to complete. Companies or indiveduals that accept orders or contract to manage or complete Appraisal Assignments should be qualified or directly employee qualified appraisers that are USPAP compliant. We believe that this practice has an adverse effects on our local and national economies and that the potential for great financial loss exists. We also believe that many individuals have been adversely affected by the excess management fees that are labeled or titled as Appraisal Fees. We believe that many times these fees are paid to individuals or business that are not qualified and do not employ qualified appraisers that are USPAP complaint. We also believe that consumers are mislead into believing that they are paying for Appraisal Services and do not know that a portion of the fee is for "Management Services". We believe that these kind of fees are deceptive and constitute unearned fees. We also believe that in their desire to profit from Appraisal Fees these companies and individuals have had an adverse affect on the American Appraisal Industry.

We thank you for your cooperation and assistance.

Sign The Petition:

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/AppraisalManagement/
 

Read More: http://appraisalblogs.com

http://appraisalblogs.com/

I too am a trainee located in Washington State and I am one month away from my state cert test and I am panicking with lack of business our small, two-person office is generating (slowing to nearly a crawl within the last two months.)  I feel for the California trainee and too have considered starting an AMC.  (LOL!)

Our local NAIFA (Olympic Peninsula Chapter) is having a meeting tomorrow that will update local appraisers on "Big Changes" that are coming to the industry that will have a great financial impact on our income and carreers.  The meeting notification also mentioned that "some analysts are saying that up to 50% of appraisers will be out of the industry."  Oh my stars!  Any thoughts on that statistic?!?!  

I have been working under my mentor appraiser for three years now (long story...I missed the appraiser trainee education deadline for WA State DOL because I was getting my bachelors degree...tough break for me!) I wish I had some valuable, witty information to contribute...though I feel more like a whiny-wanna-be-appraiser.  Please advise if anyone has any fail proof way to break into the industry and support a family.  I have done a bit of work for eAppraiseIT and all of a sudden the orders stopped (not that I was too heartbroken, but my kids are tired of eatting Top Ramen!) Anyway, upon harrassing them for a change, I was informed that volume is very low in my relatively small coverage area.  I agree, but when our company did a private appraisal for a couple that was getting divorced, they mentioned they just (within a month) had an appraisal done through BOFA (an eAppraiseIT client) and it came in very high.  When I asked who the appraiser was, they mentioned he was from out of the area.  Go figure, travel further away and under-cut the local appraisers that do know our market area!  I am beginning to wonder if I made the wrong career choice... FEEL FREE TO INSERT HAPPY THOUGHT HERE;____________!  Thank you for all the insight. 

Just Think About It For A Second...

I have been worked with Lenders, AMCs, Appraisers, Realtors, and other real estate professionals for the last 10 years.  I believe that the HVCC is a GOOD thing.  Why?

My reasons are twofold.

As a broker and former Realtor and Appraiser, I have dealt with extensive pressure from the BUYERS to meet a value which in turn, I unintentionally put pressure on appraisers, even thinking of talking value ranges.  Large lenders always questioned value and in turn I had to deal with the go between with the appraiser on these questions.  Many times this compromised my integrity as a Broker.  Many times I believed that if I didnt have someone who hit a specific value, I would LOSE REFERRALS from current clients. 

Many people blame AMCs.  They consider that thier ungoverned hands become dirty from client pressure.  Doesn't all of ours?  If you as an appraiser can say at no time you have felt and even succumbed to the pressure of valuing your properties between 2002 and 2006 then you are lying to yourself and everyone else.

What is to say that many appraisers didnt get these great relationships with brokers and direct orders from lenders BECAUSE they 'played ball'.  I beleive many appraisers, if they only offered unbiased opinions, would have no business.  Brokers and Lenders want appraisals that make deals work.  That is the bottom line.  No deal, no meal.

On the other hand, when I started using a trusted AMC (LSI) I felt a load of pressure lifted.  They were the conduit from which all of the pressure I felt could be flowed through.  The AMC has Quality Assurance groups DEDICATED to quality only.  If your value is supported, no problem.  If a value came in low, and the client was upset, they DEFENDED the appraiser!  Imagine that!  Why would they do that?

1. If they dont provide a quality appraisal first, they would have no business.

2. If they didnt defend their appraiser's appraisals, what does that look like to the quality of work they are providing as well?

3. They provided causal information to the lender that only they could explain in laymens terms. If the lender was still under pressure to make the deal work, they would order a second  or review appraisal.  (and review appraisers will tell you they are the cream of the crop) Imagine that as well!  More work for more appraisers.

All of the calls and emails that the AMC's  focused on you are by their client and vendor reps.  They have very little if any call on whether your appraisal is quality. They just want it in on time.  Again, if you didnt provide timely reports for your direct orders from Lenders and Brokers, do you really think you would still have their business? No!

Yes the turn times are slightly tighter.  But FROM EXPERIENCE it takes 2 and a half hours tops to complete a difficult assignment.  Yes you have drive time, yes you have inspections to set, yes you also have preliminary research time.  But you would do that anyway. 

The country is in a customer service oriented mode, why should appraisers be indemnified from that?  They shouldn't.  Everyone wants everything faster, cheaper and better.  If you could buy a quality 52" HDTV for less than a grand, wouldnt you?

Take into consideration your fees.  An average American worker makes $65000 a year.  If you complete 3 appraisals a day working 10 hrs a day for $225 per order, you have made over $130,000 a year!  Double that of the average worker in a 2000 hr workweek.  Many appraisers don't have college diplomas but are concerned over continuing education fees.  What about those making 65k for an $80,000 degree?  We all have to pay for education, gas and our own time, so none of those should be factors in considering the differences in income. We all drive cars to work. Appraisers just drive to more places of employment (I'm talking about the subject property).  Many people drive to and from work the same amount of miles you put on your cars driving to appraisal appointments.  The difference is we can't claim them on taxes!

I am not here to say that appraisers should not get paid, I am just saying look at it from the normal working Joe's eyes.  If you complain about fees and they take the time to add them up, you will get more opposition than you bargained for.

OK now off of that soapbox, the second reason I believe appraisal management companies are a GOOD THING is that they offer you large volumes or actually whatever volume you choose.  Appraisers who do good quality, timely work will get the most work.  If you owned a company, maybe you own an appraisal company, would you benefit more if your appraisers were punctual, ethical and produced high quality work or those that produce the other choices?  It is a no brainer.  Again appraisal management companies offer work to the best appraisers at the best fees, not just the best fees.

Well I dont know who if any of you will agree but it is hard to knock common sense. Most AMC's are built on that.  Many of them will not bend to pressure even though one or two were shown to have done that.  One last thought.  If Cuomo would have caught a specific appraiser with inflating values, would you have wanted everyone to assume that all of you were doing that too?  Just think about it.

The one thing I TOTALLY agree on with all appraisers is that AMC's need to be regulated.  I think all will agree with that.  If banks, brokers and appraisers have to follow specific guidelines then there better be something for them too. But if they were regulated, and if they disclosed fees, would it be a bad thing?  I think that was the main point of the agreement made between Cuomo and GSE's.

Does it take you longer than 2 1/2 hrs after drive time and research to complete an appraisal?  (and if you mean it takes you less, that strengthens my point). 

I don't doubt and know for a fact that many independent appraisers are very, very ethical.  I also know that many are the exact opposite and use their working relationships with Brokers and Lenders to affect their unbiased opinions. This comes from personal experience.

Similar to not wanting one bad egg (or you could use apple!) to spoil the bunch, we still need some styrafoam cartons to cushion the ability of that happening.  The AMC's are those cartons in this agreement. Maybe it isn't perfect but it is a start.  If not AMC's which are already in place, what else can act as this cushion? 

Many people say enforcing current laws and regulations is the way. If this was the case we would have no guns on the streets in the hands of gangs.  We wouldnt have people that still commit murder. (ok gross analogy, but you get my point).  Laws are just laws and regardless of the enforcement they will still be broken or bent at the least.  More enforcement means more regulation which means more enforcement and greater cost to taxpayers and your board fees - do you really want all of that?

There is a great need for a go-between with lenders and appraisers even if you know in your heart you would never give an unbiased opinion.  Could you give me some reasons why, other than your strengthened business relationships (shall I say Corporate?) and affiliations that you used to build your business as well as fees that having orders directly from lenders and brokers is better than getting one from an AMC?  Quality seems to me to be the only argument and even that is debatable at best.

I would like to make that wager with Sara whether appraisers are getting paid the lowest in the real estate profession.  I have worked in most all of the different fields in real estate.  Here are the pay scales for Twenty Five occupations from least paid to highest paid that have something to do with real estate per the Bureau of Labor Statistics:

1. Data entry clerks. (maybe you wouldnt call them a "real estate professional" but they hold the most professions in the real estate industry according to the bureau of labor statistics and there are more of them than any other position, and they are the first to go when times get bad - $25,940

2. Information and Records Clerks -$26,140

3. Vendor Representatives (at AMC' and Asset Management Cos.) Average starting salary is $26,200

4. Client/customer service representatives.  Average salary is $27,950

5. Construction Laborers - $30,330

6. Underwriters - $32,450

7. Roofers - $34,520

8. Title/Closing reps - average is $35, 360 per year

9. Document preparers - $35,500

10. Loan Interviewers - $38,360

11. Loan Counselors - $40,710

12. Notaries who arent also attorneys - $40,900

13. Quality Control Analysts - $42,430

14. Credit Analysts - $45,620

15. Carpenters - $46,420

16. Closing Agents - $47,400

17. Assessors (government) - $52,290

18. Realtors/Agents - $54,150

19. Insurance agents - $56,310

20. Surveyors - $58,900

21. Loan officers -$77,700

22. Civil Engineers - $72, 890

23. Real Estate Brokers - $78,210

24. Appraisers and Assessors of Real Estate - $81,360

http://www.bls.gov/OES/current/naics4_531100.htm

25. Lawyers - $130,620

- I had to search many different locations on the site for averages for some of these different occupations.

However, it is blatantly obvious that appraisers are not the least paid.  Note that almost all of these professions need beginning education in addition to licensing and continuing education in one way or another.

I used to appraise and if it takes you more than 2 and a half hours then you are OVER analyzing.  I could understand why you would be upset over fees if you only have time for a max of 2 appraisals a day.. If you have a b-load of assignments - how are you possibly servicing your client effectively with the process taking this long?  And how did you get to a b-load of assignments in the first place?

I think one of the things taken for granted is that appraisals are mandated for loans over $250k per FIRREA. The pubic doesnt have a choice, they HAVE to use an appraiser.  The only competition you have is between each other. Where is the Fair Trade here? Who is looking out for the consumer in terms of fees that need paid?  You basically get to set your own fee no matter what. Maybe if not AMC's to help ease the burden of appraisal fees, they should put in the HVCC that the buyer get 10 different choices of appraiser and then make a decision on who they use.  But no one wants to put that choice in the hands of the person paying for the appraisal because fee would always be the course for hire.  There would be no justification for quality.  At least AMC's have quality rankings on appraisers.  Maybe those rankings could be mandated as well, who knows.  Either way, the consumer gets burnt in the end.  That is who I have to look out for as a broker.

Now, I am in no way trying to say that appraiser's arent a vital part of the real estate field.  However, to use your income as motivation to keep or deny any form of governing on the appraisal process is unfair and will not be considered valid once the Representatives and Senators start looking at the statistics.

I moved out of the appraisal industry because 1. I have a set schedule (9-5) 2. my family needed me at home. 3. pressure from banks was strenuous anyway.

I thought independent appraisers made MORE money than those with AMC's?  I know probably 50 different appraisers (many that work with AMC's) and none of them only make $43k. And still, at $43k you wouldnt be the lowest paid worker in the real estate industry.

On the Bureau of Labor statistics, they have their own salaries for commercial appraisers, so those values didnt skew their median salary value.  I stuck with residential appraisers.

Lets talk about your extra fees - offices, insurance (personal & E&O), licensure, continuing ed, advertising, accounting.

I pay for my own insurance as many others do, I have to pay for continuing ed too and so do most other people if they want to stay on top of their profession (plus I am still paying 80k for college tuition), and most others have to pay for an accountant if they dont want to do it themselves.

I guess if you have a physical office separate from your home that is your choice but most independent appraisers dont have those, unless you own a company of appraisers, of which you would make extensively more than $43k.

And advertising fees?  Really? I dont see much appraiser advertisements around anywhere I travel.  I am assuming you mean the $100 phone book ad?  Other than that and maybe a business card or flyer (which most professionals also have to pay for).  I would like to know what else your using as advertisement and wonder if you possibly need to rethink if it is actually effective for a return of a $43k salary.

E&O insurance can be somewhat costly, I give you that, but that is a part of your choice to be independent that you cant help and you did choose to be an independent appraiser. As a Broker I have to pay that too. As do most other real estate professionals who are independent.

I am still thrown by 43k.  Is that after itemized deductions?

One last thought is that the bureau of labor statistics is what the government uses to make choices about the economy.  I would hope it isn't too skewed.

Again I think we are off the subject but I do believe this is the first appraisal blog site I have found that will even discuss fees openly without just spouting they are paid too little so I will applaud you for that and for not deleting my posts.  I appreciate the constructive conversation!

David - AMC's do not pressure for values (at least those I work with) and if you would ever know of or work with any AMC that would do that, federally, they are still liable for coercion and I would report them.  Those I work with grade quality first, turn time second, and fee third.  Value isn't even in the equation.  If the CLIENT (me or any lender) has a value dispute we have to either 1. Prove that the appraiser did not follow USPAP guidelines or 2. order an appraisal review. Those I work with don't even allow me to put any value on the order forms...  Also you can search differentiated types of Appraisal positions based off of the type of employment you choose to search.  That is how I found government assessors and other job classes not shown on that specific site.  Also "employers" I thought meant self employed for the purposes of the data they have collected. Unfortunately I was not correct.  Per the OES " Data from self-employed persons are not collected and are not included in the estimates."  I would assume the reason for the exclusion would be because of the lack of accuracy from loopholes of 1099's where extensive itemized deductions can be taken without proper proof (I like these by the way).

I actually cannot find a data source at the moment for self employment wage statistics which is kindof scary.  Who regulates this information and why isn't it published if there are statistics?  I will follow up later.

Sara - I apologize that in your area appraisals are fewer than other areas or that there is an overpopulation of appraisers in your area. That unfortunately has nothing to do with AMC's (the point of this blog).

Can you really believe this is all I have found so far..

Independent appraisers can earn from $1,500 to $8,000 or more per month and
can receive $200 to $300 per day as consultants.  

- That is a broad range I'd say...

So... 24k to 96k a year plus consulting fees.  Average of $60k/yr

Can I ask a question, what are your standard fees for an appraisal?  I will compare data I have from AMC's (I have fee schedules of the actual appraiser fees - If I told you where I got them I'd have to kill you!) and compare them to what you charge to see the actual differences.

I found all of the same data you did, but I am talking a conclusive NATIONAL average for Independent Fee Appraisers.  When you find that you tell me.  No one has one.  Much of your data also does not include independent fee appraisers except for a couple sentences including wide arrays of income.  It is hard to imagine no one "really" knows how much an independent appraiser makes. Most information is only state specific (possibly because states independently regulate Appraisers?)

Education is a basis for any job and usually the more you have the higher the salary, that is almost common sense. 

Wage increases across the country as a whole have been at a standstill for the last 4 years.  The average salary increase is 1.7% over the last 4 years - meaning some actually are making LESS than they did 4 years ago. The median wage has been stagnant with a growth of just over a half of a percent.  Appraisers will be the first to state they have had no wage increases, when in fact, most everyone has not had a wage increase. 

Since 1988 the average commission rate for Realtors on a home sale has decreased from a norm of 7% per sale to just under 5%.  Now, you could argue that values have gone up since then.  However as with real estate it is all cyclical.  In the current market and probably years to come, Realtors will be making much less than they did 10 or 20 years ago.

My profession now, yes we made much more over the last 4 years than we previously did.  That is another reason I chose to broker.  However, ask any broker now, and they will tell you we are making less than we did 10 years ago and many if not most are out of the business.

So in short, you are lucky your income has gone nowhere rather than down.

Similar to my statement earlier, eAppraiseIt, is only one AMC (owned by a lender no less, the main reason Cuomo indicted them!!!).  Would you want to be judged by the worst appraiser out there?  If you want to paint with a broad brush, you must include your own profession.

The software required by an AMC is so that your report can be made digital therefore saving paper cost to the client and saving some trees in the process (I used to appraise and appraised for some early AMC's).  The main software is ACI and a secondary software is LightHouse.  This software is write protected, meaning only the owner can manipulate it. The lender and the AMC have "reception" software that is used to pass and review the appraisal from the Quality Control department of the AMC to the client.  Editing of an appraisal by anyone other than the appraiser is illegal, and almost impossible with this software.  THAT is why they require it. They also don't want to be held liable for a faulty hardcopy report.  They can trace all of the data and changes back to you.

I am assuming you are not relinquishing your fees for fear of competition.  Instead you tell me about statistical fees.  I am not afraid to tell you, that the statistics, if for real, are a staggering wake up call.

Two AMC's Fees TO APPRAISERS are:

2055 exterior - $225

FNMA 1004 - $350 to $500 depending on location

with 1007 and 216 for income producing properties - $450 to $600 depending on location.

Properties over $500,000 to $1,000,000 add an additional $100 (for insurance purposes)

Properties  $1,000,000 to $2,000,000 add an additional $200 (for insurance purposes)

Properties over $2,000,000 are quoted to the client.

Commercial Properties (including income producing over 4 units) cannot be appraised.

Mixed use properties may be appraised on an individual basis, please contact the AMC.

Both of these AMC's GUARANTEE their appraised value (the reason stated for the increase in fee to the lender and broker). They stake their business on you providing a quality report.

Value disputes do not result in the AMC losing a client.  If that was the case, then you could easily make the argument that hitting a value is the sole reason an independent appraiser has such a great "business" relationship with the brokers and lenders.  If a big corporation with many hands, eyes, and ears is being pressured for values then how much do you think is being put on one lonely appraiser with no buffer? 

Now looking at your statistics compared to these actual fees, it doesnt appear your fee independently is any more than what an AMC pays. If it is, I would suggest that YOU are overcharging the consumer.  If statistics are what you like, then you have no case with fees, except I assume with extremely complex properties for which they have no stated fee. To top it off, AMC's normally will provide you with a steady stream of work if you provide a high quality report in a short period of time.  It also states on the fee schedules, pays are Bi-Monthly for one and every two weeks for the other. Standard turnaround for a driveby is 2 days and for an interior, 5 days.  Does it take you longer than 5 days to appraise a property (pending normal access time?) - I actually was blown away after I reread the documents.  We are sitting here arguing over 2 and a half hours a driveby report and they give you two days!

Lastly lets talk about if you really had an AMC that would try to "blacklist" you.  If you are at all up on the recent events over the last few years, you would know several lawsuits have arisen from Appraisers being put on do not use lists by AMC's because of a Lender's request. Why? Because an AMC is not legally permitted to do that.  Appraising is your livlihood.  If they have no reason other than "because they wanted to" to stop sending you work after years of service, you can sue them and win, and win big (see some of the suits in California vs Citibank and Washington Mutual).

Anyway, maybe you won't believe me, maybe you are skeptical, maybe you are a half-empty sort of person. I guss all you need to do is your homework. But maybe if you called an AMC and asked them politely for a fee schedule (as I did just this afternoon as mine were rather old and they sent it to me via PDF) or understand your rights as an appraiser before you reem them in front of millions online, you should probably have all your information first.

I guess I am a realist and I am unimpressed by wingers saying whatever they feel without knowing what is really going on. Sara in no way do I mean you - you posed good questions and assumptions with the original posts and always seemed willing to listn in anything I have read from you, which is why I decided to post here on your Blog.  If nothing else I created some attention. I didnt want it to go down the path of fees yet the cheif argument against AMC's in the proceeding posts was fees.

AMC's do exactly what you stated previously.  They provide an outsourced service for the lender so that the lender (client) can save money in the long run.  The savings arent from fees charged because the fees to the lender are usually higher than that of a typical appraiser.  The savings are from overhead and personnel costs. If you think about it logically, why pay more for the individual service? Basically because in some areas, finding an appraiser is very difficult, and finding a quality one is even harder.  They trust the AMC's to save them time and money in this respect, while paying more for the actual product than they originally would.  I guess that is the reason any service company comes to light.  Do we really need Merry Maids?  I am sure we are all capable of cleaning our own homes.

You are right, the lender is the AMC's client. And the AMC is yours. You are employed by the AMC to complete an unbiased appraisal, just like you would if contacted directly from the lender or Broker.

I think coercion is lessened when there is a buffer, given that buffer remains unbiased as well.  I dont doubt some of these AMC's, especially those owned by the lender in particular, are hard pressed to do the pressuring for the lender.  But find an independently owned and operated one, like LSI with the spin off of LPS - no longer a fidelity company and even Fidelity's own ServiceLink.  The corporate structure there is independent of any bank and the best part is the fees are pretty decent as well. They were also started by appraisers for appraisers so  I guess I choose to use these ones because they don't have greedy hands in the pot. 

I would never use an eAppraiseIt, Landsafe, LandAmerica, Source One or any of these types.  I think that is why the HVCC stated that a bank cant have more than 20% interest in them because Cuomo saw there were legit AMC's and then those that were just an extension of the lender.

PS I think I want to work for/with Shane Leady.... lol

David - My fees to those management comanies are much more.  I pay $450 for a standard 1004 most of the time, my most expensive was $1200 for a 15000 sqft mansion over 5 million. Those are the appraiser's fees.  There are areas (I have been told by friends in the business) like NYC and LA where the fees paid get lower because of all the competition, but they also say the free market competition brings that about anyway, even if there was no AMC.

They arent overcharging me in my eyes because I dont have to do anything but place an order and then wait for the report.  Prior to using them, I had to use my own time and resources (actually had a clerk employed) just to search for appraisers and chase them down with phone calls and negotiating.  Now I dont have to do any of that plus the product is guaranteed. The guarantee is that if I find the appraiser was biased or if they didnt follow USPAP guidelines or was comping to a value, I can have an appraisal review done or order a second appraisal.  If either of those comes within 20% of the original I have to pay for BOTH.  If it is outside of that, I get both for free.

I am betting if I had to employ 1 person to do this while I tended to my clients, a large bank would need a whole department.  The overhead and personnel cost would far outweigh the higher prices of the product itself. 

AMCs make their money by siphoning part of the appraisers fee

This is the biggest misconception of quality AMC's by appraisers.

JC

Wow,  your "information" just does not appear realistic in todays world. 

Are you aware that the new appraisal licensing laws require a college degree?  In Calif for a license you need a 2 year degree -  for certified a 4 year degree.  Yes you can be grandfathered in if you were licenced prior to the current requirements.  FHA work is going to certified appraisers only in the next few months - this has been mandated by the new regs.

In California the biggest AMC's are paying appraisers $150 to $190 for a 1004 URAR with the requirement of 24 hr turn time.  You may have done appraisals in 2 1/2 hours, those days are long gone when an appraiser put unk., or left areas blank in appraisals, cloned reports and did little in the report to fully support and explain their research and value.  Today we must use comps no more than 3 months old, include 2 listings or pendings, support all data with graphs, charts, matched pair analysis etc and most appraisers would be glad to have one job a day, that would be busy in this market at this time.  The liability an appraiser has is huge and the expenses have gone up tremendously.

During the 2003 - 2005 "high times" agents, brokers and that end of the business saw their incomes double and better as their fees are based on the price of the home, appraisers were not getting any benefit of the increased values and were lucky if they could charge 10% more for their work while their cost of doing business was going up.  No surprise you left the appraisal business, except that heck if you can get rich and do nothing "a your posts imply" what made you leave?  9-5 job, there is so little work out there now that the only way your working more than 8 hrs a day is if it takes you more than 8 hrs to do that job you just got from an AMC and are getting a whopping $175 for, spent 20$ in gas to get there and still have all the costs of running a business to cover.

Your numbers just do not work in todays world.  What are appraisers getting now?  Typical full fee independent appraiser is charging $350 - 375 for a job, turning the job in 3 days and spending most of that time on the job of full research and development of a report that is completely supported and well explained.

AMC's here charge the lender $350 - $400 while paying the appraiser around $175 for the same job, they do not provide the sales contract, title report or any support for the appraiser, then they hold up the job once they recieve it in the mandated 24hrs for 1 - 2 days while someone who knows nothing about appraising goes over the report and requests the appraiser change none to no, asks for comments that are already in the report (opps they didnt read it or just have no idea where to look since hey they are not appraisers and have never done an appraisl in their life).

AMC's are charging their client $125 for a rent survey and paying the appraiser $50 for the same survey which the appraiser has to drive so a good portion of that fee goes to gas and guess what you'd be doing good to complete the rent survery properly in 2 1/2 hours with rental information so difficult to get in alot of markets and the additional forms required by the AMC's.

Full disclosure of the fee's charged by AMC's to their client - our charge and what is paid the the appraiser - is needed.

AMCs are good to some extent. They provide the lender with one stop shopping but unfortunately, with an AMC, you get what you pay for, from the appraiser that is...I am an appraiser and real estate broker. AMCs fees for the appraiser are very low and going lower. I get very very few assignments from AMCs because my fees are to high for them. As a broker and review appraiser, I have seen tons of "garbage" reports come from AMCs, hence "you get what you pay for". In simplistic and realistic terms, the AMCs pays little in fees to the appraiser, and this typically results in the quality of the appraisal or appraiser beingpoor. The majority of appraisers doing work for AMCs are on their lists and were on their lists from before because they were not qualified to be approved directly by the lenders.

My point is, if I was a lender I wouldn't mind using an AMC if they provided a quality appraisal by an experience appraiser, that wasn't fraudulent and the fee was competetive to other appraisal fees. That being said, why do AMCs pay appraisers less than market fees for assignments completed diectly for clients and if AMCs provide the level of protection and quality they claim, why was an AMC made the "example" and reason for the HVCC. Obviously they don't provide the level of protection and/or quality the lenders were looking for and if they have changed to ugrade their quality standards, why do they expect to and actually pay appraisers less than market fees?

JC-reading through the past blogs, I didn't see the total amount that AMCs make a year by keeping a large portion of each appraisal fee and let me know if I am wrong, but I assume the anual income for appraisers was not based on the fees paid to an appraiser only from AMCs because I assure you, that number would be substantially less.

AMCs are good to some extent. They provide the lender with one stop shopping but unfortunately, with an AMC, you get what you pay for, from the appraiser that is...I am an appraiser and real estate broker. AMCs fees for the appraiser are very low and going lower. I get very very few assignments from AMCs because my fees are to high for them. As a broker and review appraiser, I have seen tons of "garbage" reports come from AMCs, hence "you get what you pay for". In simplistic and realistic terms, the AMCs pays little in fees to the appraiser, and this typically results in the quality of the appraisal or appraiser beingpoor. The majority of appraisers doing work for AMCs are on their lists and were on their lists from before because they were not qualified to be approved directly by the lenders.

My point is, if I was a lender I wouldn't mind using an AMC if they provided a quality appraisal by an experience appraiser, that wasn't fraudulent and the fee was competetive to other appraisal fees. That being said, why do AMCs pay appraisers less than market fees for assignments completed diectly for clients and if AMCs provide the level of protection and quality they claim, why was an AMC made the "example" and reason for the HVCC. Obviously they don't provide the level of protection and/or quality the lenders were looking for and if they have changed to ugrade their quality standards, why do they expect to and actually pay appraisers less than market fees?

JC-reading through the past blogs, I didn't see the total amount that AMCs make a year by keeping a large portion of each appraisal fee and let me know if I am wrong, but I assume the anual income for appraisers was not based on the fees paid to an appraiser only from AMCs because I assure you, that number would be substantially less.

Zaio -

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www.sunbeltappraisals.com

I reached this site because I was doing research on H.R. 3837, the Escrow, Appraisal, and Mortgage Servicing Improvement Act.  I've been an independent fee appraiser for 22 years and work in an office with four other appraisers, also with many years of experience.  Up until this point, none of us has worked for an appraisal management company.  We have considered it, of course, with the Home Valuation Code of Conduct set to go into effect the first of the year (although now that Fannie and Freddie are in receivership - so to speak - this may be delayed).

One of my longest standing clients recently signed on with an amc due to FDIC rulings, and asked me to "climb on board".  I checked into their fee schedule and qualifications, and found they pay $180.00 for a 2055 and $230.00 for an 1004 (of course you can ask for a fee increase if the subject property is 1)located on an island 2)over 7500 square feet or 3)an act of congress (just kidding about #3).  The turn time is 48 hours, and with a 2055 (their preferred format) they require an interior inspection with interior photos, a floor plan, cost approach, and five comparable sales all closed within 3 months and less than one mile from the subject.  A fellow appraiser signed up with this company, and his first (and only) request was located in a small town 45 miles away.  The amc required no documentation of experience and no work samples were required.  An appraiser must simply be state licensed and/or certified - whether for 10 minutes or 20 years.

When I started appraising in 1986, my fee was $300.00; and I increased this to $350.00 about four years ago.  Each appraiser in our office completes an average of 3-4 appraisals per week, with a 3-4 day turn time because we cover a fairly large geographical 4 county area.  This all seems very reasonable to me, and our lenders have been satisfied.  Given the unrealistic expectations of the appraisal management companies regarding turn times and fees to produce a quality product, my plan is to phase out lender generated appraisals and expand our client base to include estate planners, tax appeals, equitable distribution of property and pricing homes for sale by owners.  Any other ideas?

Hello again!

Been busy surprisingly, mostly with foreclosures.

Sara, thanks for doing some research.  It is true the larger the AMC, the smaller the cut if any.

Orlando, AMC's are large corporations and I would assume they make millions of dollars.  The one fact you need to realize is that the fee to the client is much higher than say, Alex's fee.  Take that into consideration, because it begs the question, why would a lender even pay a higher fee (or an independent broker like me!).

It is because of the security they DO promise and keep.  They guarantee their product.  I dont know what appraisals you reviewed, but any appraisal you find that would be so terrible and I am assuming completed without conforming to USPAP guidelines, I would hope that you are reporting that like a responsible and ethical appraiser should.  Weeding out the bad appraisers is exactly what we need, not to condemn the AMC.

Sara, I have requested from that AMC that I use to get a fee schedule for you in Portland.  I am sure you will see their fees are not low, but competitive.  Let me reiterate that if you were to go down the path of letting the consumer choose the appraiser, we wouldn't be having any of this conversation.  They would drive the cost of appraisals down to next to nothing. 

This leads me to a new topic.  If not AMC's, who should be the body that orders an appraisal?  Consumers/Borrowers are probably the worst option.  We can't let the lenders and banks as consumers for fear of coercion (the real reason for the HVCC). Brokers, possibly. But then again to be with a broker for a tenured relationship, you have to be hitting their values or you wouldnt be completing reports for them anymore.  Without a deal there is no need for the appraisal so there goes that option.  Who is left?  Title companies? A central appraisal organization? (possibly,but leaves much too much politics to be desired).  So if none of these is a good option, who can order and track the appraisals?

Should new companies start up to take the orders from the appraisal management companies, brokers, consumers and lenders to act as servicers?  Wouldnt these be just another form of AMC? I would think that would lead to higher costs for consumers. What are your thoughts?

I have to respond to CAC.

I have never... let me repeat NEVER heard of or saw a 1004 appraisal report from order to completion done in 24hrs unless you are soley dedicating the whole 24hrs to that report.   

I am glad that California has mandated 2 years of a degree for appraisers.  I am assuming you mean that none of your appraisal classes are included in that.  If they are, it is about the same as if anyone else had to go through the appraisal classes without any other schooling.  Just because you "call" taking your appraisal classes over a 2 year time period a degree, doesnt mean you actually are being forced to get a degree.

You obvioulsy do not know what goes on internally at an AMC to provide false claims of uneducated reviewers looking at your reports.  The problem is appraisers are so self centered sometimes that they think any opinon about the report other than thier own is inaccurate.  Take the appraisal institutes report a few years ago that two appraisers, if given the same house to appraise, will come outside of 15% of each other's value.  Who is most right?  I am sure they would both argue until they are blue in the face that both of their reports is the most accurate.

Richard THANK YOU for noting "Appraisers who do fast and cheap and don't do QUALITY will be dropped eventually!"  - This is exactly what happens at AMC's.  Quality first, turn time second - FEE IS A DISTANT THIRD. Although this slightly contradicts

"fast and cheap also means low quality and sloppy methodology!"  Not always.

Also, please don't complain about me working a 9-5 job or imply I am saying anything other than what is written.  If you have so many complaints about the industry, why aren't you getting out of it?

JC

I have been a Cert Appraiser for 17 yrs in Colorado and have yet to meet anyone who is coming close to doing 3 assignments per day ( except for a few who have been disciplined by the State Board for USPAP  violations and shoddy work due to "not enough analysis" ).

Good Luck to you, but as for me and my peers here, completely against AMC's and their being in the middle with no oversight  or liability (USPAP violations)  or licensing, etc.

Mark

Jim - I'm not angry.  I do reserve the right to defend myself when someone attacks me personally.

The appraisal industry is hurting not because of AMC's, but because of bad loans.  These loans start and end with the lender.  Similar to the demise of the steel industry in the 80's, not many people need an appraisal now. Not many people can get the financing to get a loan let alone afford to buy anything in the first place.  The economy itself has drained people of their savings through the stock market. Appraiser's have a hard time making a living, not because of AMC's but because they have little to appraise.

I don't have a boss.  But I do know that if I had one, I wouldnt be getting a raise. Actually I may even be worried about getting laid off.  And it would have nothing to do with my performance on the job. It would have to do with the real estate market coupled with the economy as a whole. I have seen this first hand.

Look at the big picture too. Any position that is within a corporate setting is not getting a raise and most employers have cut out the availability of even getting one to those in the higher ranks.  Employees have been at a wage flatline for the last 5 years. It is going to get worse before it gets better.

I have already agreed that oversight is the key to AMCs, not elimination.

"Everyone here is just discussing a topic they feel affects them.  If it's no big deal to you..."

Jim, this definitely affects me.  It affects the way I do business on a daily basis. It affects the clerical positions that I employ and want to employ. It affects my personal as well as my professional life. So if you feel the only reason that someone can post on a blog is to complain about the subject at hand, maybe I shouldnt be posting.  I apologize that I believed this was a forum for discussion not dissention.

Jim, I have never heard of an AMC doing anything like that and I am sorry you had to go through what you did.  It was unethical as well as probably violated many laws. But I guess if you put up debt like you did to gain the business, you had to suffer through until the debt was paid off.

My issue is that with the HVCC in effect, (if it goes into effect) raising standards would have to be thier concern.  I think entitling the AMC's to receive the business would force them to become even more concerned about the appraisal standards and the quality of the product they are providing.  This also leads to government being given the opportunity to regulate them, because as a private or publicly traded corporation (see Exxon) the federal government has a very hard time regulating them unless they directly own them or the federal government has a direct association with them (such as fannie and freddie).  The only reason why the government was able to regulate banks in the 70's was because they ended up bailing them out and creating oversight organizations in the process.

I don't agree that the HVCC will encourage the AMC's to raise their standards.  When I was sent an application package, they did not ask me how long I had been appraising, they did not ask to see samples of my work and they did not ask how many appraisals I had completed in geographic areas I would be covering. They asked if I was certified,  would I accept their fee and could I provide the requested turn around time.

The AMC's have a vendor management association called TAVMA and they are lobbying to "request that the General Accountability Office (GAO) - not the Appraisal Subcommittee of the Federal Financial Institutions Examination Council - conduct the study of appraisal management companies as proposed in the Moore amendment."

I think I would like to have, say, the US Postal Service oversee and study my work, not the NC State Appraisal Board.  Does that make any sense?  And would it be as effective? 

I really don't know what AMC's you all are talking to.  I can understand your grief if a company will publicly state that all of their orders will go to the lowest paid appraiser.  I don't see how it would be fiscally responsible for them, if quality suffers.  If quality does not suffer then it would be a gold mine, but like potato chips, appraisers arent all cut the same, and alot of their companies have too many fillers (ie people who inspect the houses for them!)

The reason for the use of the General Accountability Office is because they are an unbiased regulatory body much like an appraiser should be.  Using the appraisal subcommittee, loaded with lobbyists for appraisal organizations, would in no way be a fair and unbiased investigative figure.  Someone needs to be able to be fair in the results of the investigation for the well being of the appraiser as well as the AMC, Lender and Consumer.  I am sure that lenders would love if the Federal Reserve was the investigative body for banks.

On their website they state:

The U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO) is known as "the investigative arm of Congress" and "the congressional watchdog." GAO supports the Congress in meeting its constitutional responsibilities and helps improve the performance and accountability of the federal government for the benefit of the American people. We provide Congress with timely information that is objective, fact-based, nonpartisan, nonideological, fair, and balanced.

Our Core Values of accountability, integrity, and reliability are reflected in all of the work we do. We operate under strict professional standards of review and referencing; all facts and analyses in our work are thoroughly checked for accuracy.

Our Work is done at the request of congressional committees or subcommittees or is mandated by public laws or committee reports. We also undertake research under the authority of the Comptroller General. We support congressional oversight by

•  
  • auditing agency operations to determine whether federal funds are being spent efficiently and effectively;
  • investigating allegations of illegal and improper activities;
  • reporting on how well government programs and policies are meeting their objectives;
  • performing policy analyses and outlining options for congressional consideration; and
  • issuing legal decisions and opinions, such as bid protest rulings and reports on agency rules.

Our work leads to laws and acts that improve government operations, saving the government and taxpayers billions of dollars.

The appraisal subcommittee's website states:

Our Mission: The ASC's mission is to ensure that real estate appraisers, who perform appraisals in real estate transactions that could expose the United States government to financial loss, are sufficiently trained and tested to assure competency and independent judgment according to uniform high professional standards and ethics.

The latter is great for oversight of appraisers themselves individually, but not so much for an independent corporate organization. They specialize in making sure appraisers are licensed and follow USPAP guidelines and you can't not be licensed or not comply with USPAP and do an appraisal for an AMC. The Appraisal subcommitte also in mandated by law to give money to the Appraiser Foundation, a privately held not for profit who was defiant against the HVCC and AMC's and promoted letters to be sent to the government during the open comments session after the HVCC agreement was signed.  This body is hardly unbiased.

Here is a good article from the TAVMA:

Thursday, October 16, 2008

Where does the rhetoric end and critical thinking begin when it comes to AMCs?

 

In an interview with Appraisal Buzz newsletter, Antonio Little, Senior VP of New Business Development, at Valocity, Inc., said that his company has about 6,200 appraisers on its fee panel with an average of 11 years experience. He noted that his employer is very particular about who they hire. And that they have a rigorous recruiting process and a thorough quality control process. According to Little, fully 100% of all of their appraisal reports are reviewed by live staff reviewers. And, he said, appraisals are further supported by a proprietary automated review process that qualifies reports against industry standards and client-specific guidelines.

And yet we hear over... and... over... and... over that appraisal management companies (AMCs) attract only inept form-filler-outers who can't get real work from real clients anywhere else so they have to go the appraisal management route.

Come to think of it, the 2007 October Research Corporation National Appraisal Survey said that around 63 percent (63%) of all residential appraisers include appraisal management companies among their clients. Does this 63% make up the group of incompetents we hear so much about?

Now we hear in a report in Valuation Review, that a New England appraisal group is forming a task force to investigate AMC practices to see if there are legitimate reasons to be concerned about them. Among future actions of the task force might be to call for AMCs to be licensed or to seek to establish a set of prohibited practices.

Fair enough. But will this investigation and others like it, look beyond the rhetoric and the (often negative) passions that AMCs incite to really understand the appraisal management business model? I genuinely hope so.

Among my greatest frustrations as a consultant to the appraisal management industry is the lack of clarity about how the AMC industry works, how vendors are selected, their experience levels, how the Better-Faster-Cheaper triangle of vendor management impacts the quality, service, and price of valuation products and delivery of appraisal products and services. So as someone who sees it as his job to explain the appraisal and vendor management industry, warts and all, I'd like to see a reasoned approach to the topic.

Here's hoping that all the parties in the AMC debate - appraisers, bloggers, AMC leaders, and association managers like me - look beyond the rhetoric and rock throwing to really understand what appraisal management is and its role in the mortgage lending system.

AMC's are ridiculous. I have only dealt with a few and they are complete bullies and unprofessional. My partners and I are attempting to coordinate an effort to bring forth this issue to the appraisal subcommitee in Washington.

You all hit on my points exactly.

An AMC is a business - through and through.  However, if we regulate them, and I dont mean with an oversight committee, but with rules and regulations pertaining to the appraisal standards, are they really such a bad thing?

If you choose to isolate AMC's from your business portfolio, you are isolating yourself from the rest of the appraisal world.  The best point I think from that article was:

"Come to think of it, the 2007 October Research Corporation National Appraisal Survey said that around 63 percent (63%) of all residential appraisers include appraisal management companies among their clients. Does this 63% make up the group of incompetents we hear so much about?"

Does it?  Does anyone want to say that 63% of their peers in the appraisal industry are incompetent? I think that if you did, it would be career suicide and death by pride.

Richard, I read your article.  The question I have for that is if these appraisers using an AMC are just "form fillers", then who is doing the rest of the work?  I have never gotten an appraisal from the AMCs I use that looked like cookie cutter values and what I call canned commentary.  I dont think the appraisal would be acceptable to the AMC if this was the case.

You have to keep in mind and I say this over and over that you cannot judge all AMCs because of the practice of a select few.  We then could easily say all automobile salesman are bad, all new construction companies are bad, all politicians are bad, and even all appraisers are bad.

The depth and breadth of this discussion goes (or should go) far beyond fees. Many people are quick to point out that there was no meantion in the HVCC about fees or adequate disclosure.  The lack of that discussion could easily mean just as much that appraisers should be independent with those fees to AMC's and the broker/lender should have no say in the appraiser's fee as much as it is the popular argument that the HVCC neglects to speak of fees because it doesnt care about the appraiser's fees at all.

I digress.

AMC's are only as good as the appraisals they deliver, and only as good as the appraisers that provide them. This could pausibly sum up everyone's point of view in one sentence. However, not all appraisers and appraisals are bad, so not all AMCs are bad, regardless of the fee YOU have negotiated with them.

I am baffeled by everything I read.  Ofcourse, its very slow in the business today and I had time to read everyone's post.

JC: Are you are angry at an appraiser who appraised one of your properties lower than the list or purchase price?

Imagine if there was a "middle man" to come into the Real Estate Agent profession and tell you what kind of percentage per sale you can earn for all of your hard work.  How would that make you feel.

I CANNOT believe you stated "if it takes over 2 1/2 hrs. to produce an appraisal your over analyzing" (paraphrasing).  Would you want an appraisal not is not thorough?  I am proud to say that YES, it takes me over 2 1/2 hrs. to complete an appraisal and I have NEVER had an AMC or Lendor for that matter ask for revisions or addendums.  I guess Im doing something right.

Sara,  GREAT BLOG!

AMC's have the least motivations to be honest to appraisers.  Try over 75% fee reductions from their inbound fee.  I've cought them lying to appraisers regarding other appraisers fees, to try and find the absolutely lowest cost appraiser to throw everything at.  There needs to be fee split cap regulations.

Since when was good American business all about ripping off the worker?  Appraisers, join me in not reducing fees.  The more calls you get from AMC's, the harder it is for them to assign all this low fee work....  Keep at it!!!!   I'm thinking of a disclosure page that they have to sign regarding every appraisal.  Something that forces them to disclose their actual fee's, before I will consider taking the order.  Also indicating that my fee will be clearly disclosed in the appraisal report.

If Homeowners were aware of the differences between appraisal fees, and the appraisers fee, they would definently be able to make more informed decisions.

We need to STOP these so-called "AMC".  They are just taking away appraiser's money for not doing anything.

Appraisers, Loan officers, loan processors, and people with no Mortgage background are the ones reviewing your appraisals for errors..... On a side note Streetlinks National Appraisal in Indianapolis has recently let go/fired/forced out approximatley 100 employees.  Hopefully you all will be doing business with better AMC's and will continue to thrive!

I would be more than happy to share any and all information with you. Especially since last Thursday they dropped another 40 + employees of which numerous were licensed and certified appriasers.  In a previous life/job I was a loan officer..  Do a google Search for Ter Ebeyer greenwood Indiana this is the corporate trainer. ah hell here is the link to that story.  I personally have nothing against this fellow as he seemed to be a nice guy but this is the element training the quality control reviewers. 

http://www.wthr.com/global/story.asp?s=5299483&ClientType=Printable

I cannot comment on the outcome of this investigation as it is not public record yet as I have not been able to find anyadditional info.

Feel free to drop me a line at the above email address.  Hell I still have all of the training material.

I cannot say as I do not know about clients having rough times.   I can say that when I was in training the month of april the company did approx 5000 appraisal orders,  The Month of may we processed 10,000 orders. Late may to early june there was a lot of down time. 200+ quality control reviewers handeling 600 tasks a day.  Keep in mind a task can be a message from the client or the appraiser so of the 600 tasks roughly 5o+% were messages.  Needles to say a lot of down time for employees getting paid $15.00 an hour to do nothing.  Does not take a rocket scientist to see that number of orders was just not there...  They did sign with Flagstar but the biggest client was National City.

Rick

I was just wondering if anyone else is having trouble with StreetLinks?  I have done four appraisals for them in the past two weeks.  Two of these appraisals have been cancelled after I turned the reports in.  I was informed that I would be paid for a trip fee.  I don't see how this is fair.  I have been trying to get in contact over the last one as I still have one open order with this company but will probably not complete it if they don't change their ways.

Donny here is a link for contact at Streetlinks.

www.streetlinks.com/contactus.nsp

Rick

Still a good post. Recent information in the industry is indicating more like a $150 to $200 haircut off the fees to the AMCs for an appraisal - upwards of 50% of the fee charged to the consumer. I do think this runs afoul of RESPA.

Alison Shuman

http://theappraisaliq.com

I'm not sure if anybody is familiar with foxtrot but we want to change your bad feeling toward appraisal management companies. We aren't a huge company but we are always here to help you and our business is always looking to improve. If you have any questions feel free to go to our website or call us at 1-800-727-3506. Trust me, you won't regret it.

http://www.foxtrotcorp.com/about.asp

CAN ANYONE HELP ME OUT WITH GETTING SOME ADDITIONAL WORK. I HAVE BEEN REALLY SLOW RECENTLY. WITH THE FREE TIME ON MY HANDS I HAVE MANAGED TO BECOME A FATHER!! NOW I AM SLOW AS FAR AS WORK GOES AND MY HAIR IS COMING OUT BY THE HAND FULL. ANY SUGESTIONS WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED. I AM IN THE RICHMOND, VA AREA. THANKS.

 I agree most amc's are bad news. I did take the initiative to start an amc, I am an appraiser or was and simply invested what i had to start an amc for the appraisers. I am not getting rich by no means but my amc is alot differnt than the others..... I pay full urar fees I let the appraisers put old clients on my list so that they can recieve orders and still remain compliant and also i pay quickly. Any way there are some good ones out there but it is alot of work and bs but hopefuly someday if this is the way we have to do business people will make us the standard..... Remeber your paying an amc some of your fees so they are supposed to work for you.... Appraisal Management 1

Personally my favorite AMC is http://www.CollateralManagement.org

They are really easy to work with and have great customer service.