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The Cleveland Hub Initiative

Will Reviving the Passenger Rail System Be Good for the Economy?

This idea intrigues me, I admit it. The Ohio Association of Railroad Passengers and ODOT are major players in this initiative, which would bring high speed passenger rail trains to cities within a two to four hour travel time of each other, cities like: Toledo, Detroit, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, Toronto, Chicago, Columbus and Cincinnati. Think about it: airlines are struggling, and even if things get better in that industry, how many plane transfers does it take when you leave from Cleveland or Omaha or Pittsburgh, to get someplace like Washington D.C., New York City, Boston or New Jersey. Now you know why the Hub Initiative sounding good?

Vacations, easy to understand. Fast travel, easy travel, no waiting in line at airports, better, faster, more enticing access to cities we didn't have access to before. More available transportation modes, less reliance on cars and planes, could mean more tourists in each of these connected cities.

Business Travel is a biggie. If Cleveland becomes a Rail Hub, then more businesses in these newly connected cities will be encouraged to work with each other. That means more businesses might move to Cleveland, and at the very least, it means more money flowing back and forth between the cities.

JOBS! In the beginning, construction of this Hub will call for (According to the Ohio Rail Development Commission or ORDC) more than 6000 jobs along the rail network lines; they are estimating 1600 permanent jobs to operate the system and then 'indirect' jobs which could be another 1500 to 2000. This is an awesome idea! Look at the photo and see a possible design for the Hub in Cleveland. All of this economic growth could increase property values, encourage and tie in redevelopment plans for Downtown Cleveland, bring in more business, and help our sports franchises as well (many people from Buffalo, for example, like to trek to Cleveland for Yankee/Indian games.....I know, I know, the dreaded Yankees; with good rail transportation available, even more people from NY could make Cleveland a destination on one of their vacations) This all means more money in our collective Cleveland pocket.

If you go to All Aboard Ohio's website, you can read all about this. They estimate the entire system could be built in stages in a nine year period (okay we know everything takes longer than planned). Estimated costs? $500 million. My impression is that the start up monies would be $50 million from State of Ohio and matching Federal monies, giving us $100 million to get things moving. Could be the best money ever spent? You can attend town meetings on this, there was one today in Columbus

I have a follow up on this for next week, with interviews and more information on costs and where the monies come from. But why not get involved yourself? This link puts you in contact as a volunteer with All Aboard Ohio. They do not have any Northeast Ohio meetings scheduled (at least not on their on-line calendar) but I will find out when one will be 'dog and ponying' to a street closer to home.

The rendering above is of a potential redevelopment layout on the Cleveland lakefront by the Cleveland Hub plan - this design combines a new convention center and train station (center-right). It's not real yet, but to me it sounds like a winner.

Peace Out - 3C

Posted by Carole Cohen Realtor®, ePRO on 01/13/2007 09:59 PM

Comments (119)

cleveland, cleveland hub initiative, rail transportation, business development, tourism, 3c

This post has been included in Ohio Information Cuyahoga County, OH Information Cleveland, OH Information

119 Comments on The Cleveland Hub Initiative

JAN

2007

Carole, that's very exciting!! Great news for all those neighboring cities - and nine years is not bad at all. I wonder if my brother-in-law who lives in Cleveland, knows about this.

Hi Ines, how are you? Well, as for your brother-in-law knowing, it's possible, but the problem is, no one publicizes anything here; really. There are public meetings but it's not like there are ad campaigns announcing initiatives. It has been sooo frustrating to me. I'm not the only one, I think it must be a blogging thing. Not this issue but a few others have local bloggers fahklempt over no progress, no public scrutiny, etc. You know the drill, you are an involved person lol. Anyway, I think it's awesome you have extended family here! Thanks for your thoughts

My dad lived in Cleveland for about 4 years not long ago - he's a Civil Engineer and specializes in airport runways. He worked for Parson's at the time. Anyone in the airport gets the inside scoop on the city developments, I'm going to ask him as well. I've gone to Cleveland a bunch of times and love the FLATS area - the bridges take my breath away with the meandering river and all the comotion...it's a pretty cool place.

Good plan Ines, ask him! What a great job he has. He probably knows more about it than anything I have ferreted out so far. Let me know! I do have calls in for more information but it takes time here lol. The bridges are what give Cleveland it's character, I'm not surprised you love them. They do take your breath away, this time of year they are all lit up, some are lit all year long.

Carole, many other parts of the world use rail systems with great success, and as their major source of long range transportation. The US has not used it any where as much as it could. This is a very interesting proposal, but as we all know it will not only take twice as long to build, but will end up being twice as expensive.

BTW let’s take it easy on those dreaded Yankees, they happen to be my team....LOL

George: progress in these areas can be painfully slow - we spend millions in this Country on things that are obscene so spending millions on something like this seems much more constructive. I am hoping the fact that other states would benefit from it as well might help the lobbying effort to move it forward, (I sound like Craig lol) Twice as long to build and maybe 9 years before they get started although I hope not.

As for the Yankees, I can't believe you are making me admit this on a Cleveland blog but I am not an Indians fan lol.

Vacation, Business, Jobs, Economy - Don't forget the Environment. All of those people on a train takes a lot of cars off of the highway. And look what the train did for Denver - wonders with both traffic and hopefully pollution, not to mention nerves.

Carole, with air travel increasingly more tiresome, I would think there could be real market for this.... You have a collection of cities that are just far enough apart to be inconvenient to get to... much like travelling from one European city to the next. High speed would be the key.

Carole, you are brave admitting that on here.

Dena I agree, Smart Homes, Smart Travel and Eco Building yes? You are the queen of Eco Building.

Angus: You are right on as usual. I think they are talking about a 55 mph train until the entire system gets up and running, and then high speed. Very good example with European cities. We agree I'm sure, it used to be fun and efficient to fly. Now I guess the only downside to the argument is how does it affect the economics of the airline industry but frankly, I'm not sure we can put all of our eggs there anymore it just doesn't make sense on any level.

George: as far as I'm concerned all baseball is good baseball no matter what city. As long as Baltimore is in first place lol

JAN

2007

Hey, I have never heard of this. VERY cool. I hope they do the connection to Detroit first! Then they can take it over to Chicago from here. We already have a train, but its not very fast.

Hey this sounds like a great idea. Are they planning a bar car? I need a reservation!

Seriously are they thinking more along the lines of luxury trains or cattle cars?

Minneapolis and St. Paul are working on a light rail system. They started with a short line from the Mall of America to downtown Minneapolis in hopes of attracting tourist trade. Instead the workers are using it. It's well used, but not self sustaining yet. The next proposal is to connect the two downtowns: Minneapolis and St. Paul. The proposed route will go right through the University of Minnesota campus making it very nice for students. The line will be adjacent to our office and to a commercial building that is owned by a parnertship I'm a member of. Am I for it? Yes! Not only financially but for all the development it will bring to some areas of town. Plus, I LOVED the subway in Chicago and New York. Our metro has no good public transit and hopefully this will be a start. Eventually, it's thought there will be a passenger line connecting to St. Cloud as well. That would be awesome.

On the subject of true passenger trains, one our most pleasant trips with our kids was on the train from Minneapolis to Canton, Ohio. We turned the seats so the kids could face us and read books, slept, picnicked, etc. It was relaxing for all of us and we adults were able arrive refreshed instead of tired of driving.

Mo: Yes exciting no? Detroit and Pittsburgh would make a lot of sense to start. I imagine the RR lines accomodating high speed are awaiting the Motor City!

Laurie: LOL Luxury trains well, the only thing i can say is that either way isn't there usually a 'bar car?' I know Moo would vote for the cattle car :-)

Bonnie: Thankfully we already have a light rail system and they are even expanding it a bit. Your new light rail system sounds like just what is needed. I miss the Metro in DC it was such an easy form of transportation. When you were going to Canton were you on your way to the Hall of Fame? You reminded me of my time in England with a Euro Rail Pass which we used for all the day trips; I can still remember all the wild life we saw and how beautiful the scenery was between towns and cities. I'm hoping for productive new development in Minneapolis St. Paul along with Cleveland!

I took a train to the Howard Brinton conference in New York. What a fun and relaxing experience as you travel along the shoreline. I've also taken the train up to Boston. Sure beats driving! And they have really adapted for the business travelers and their laptops.

Seems like a great initiative to get inolved with.

Carole,

How did I miss this last night? Great blog. Great pictures. I love trains. I'm about to get on one in about a 1/2 hour, actually two because I am taking the subway (train) to the Metro North commuter railroad to visit my Dad in Westchester.

I take the LIRR(Long Island Railroad) to get out to the beach (Hamptons or Fire Island) beats all that traffic on the LIE Long Island Expressway...I mean Long Island Parking lot.

I've travelled on trains through out Europe. We even have a train to the plane now . A fast speed train that goes to JFK airport.

Cities with good transportation systems help increase real estate values. I've always wanted to go someplace on the Orient express.

Linda I am sure that was much more relaxing! And Brinton was lucky to have you there :-)

Mitchell, see that is what I'm talking about, linking up to the already existing systems that you automatically have and can rely on. All the way to Westchester, no car needed. And no dead end on the parking lot of life lol

I am checking the schedule on their website right now to see if there is an Express to Scarsdale to save me 20 minutes. Oh good there is one at 3:33 gets in at 4pm...27 minutes.

BTW: Open Houses are packed today. People are walking in the streets carrying show sheets and floor plans

Mitchell, I used to take the LIRR out to the Hamptons on holiday weekends because the LIE traffic was unbearable, it was so easy. One weekend I was so not in the mood I hopped a puddle jumper from LaGuardia, lol.

Laurie, life in the fast lane lol

Mitchell you are bragging and I'm jealous :-)

I remember taking the high speed train in Japan, I could be wrong (this was maybe 1984?) but I think it was the first fast train in Japan. Omg it was fast I loved it. DC of course has the Metroliner, at least that is what it was called I think. Cut the travel time to NYC in half.

Hi Laurie,

I hear you, I'm never in the mood to come back to the city. One time I took a sea plane back to Manhattan early Monday morning and went straight to work. I missed all the ferries and trains Sunday night.

The LIRR has these brand new trains now. There is one The Montauk Express that leaves straight from Penn Station and the first stop is West Hampton. (no switching in Jamaica or Babylon and no more cattle cars)

Carole, The metroliner is great NY to Washington or Boston, if you think about it by the time you get to the airport in both cities go through all the security at the airport you end up getting there around the same time. I think a new rail system for Cleveland will be great.

Who doesn't like the Yankees? Oh yeah those Mets fans lol

Hi Mitchell lol. When David Cone was a Yankee (especially trying for no hitters) I was glued to the games. Now I am sure the Mets fans will be lured out lol (Oh yeah, I was cheering them on in the 80s don't hold it against me lol)

I so agree with you about the Metroliner, and I took it from DC to Boston as well. I remember when I took it to NY, took a cab from Penn Station to the Opera House (for the life of me I can't remember what the concert was) but I remember the cab ride....two opera singers in full tux and a hooker already in the cab. It was at a red light. Being from DC and not familiar with the rules, I asked them through the open windows can I ride too I have twenty mintues to get to a concert. It was an interesting ride LOL

Carole, OMG, two male opera singers and a hooker. I won't even go there. lol only in New York.

Mitchell, Those new LIRR trains sound awesome (throwing some LA at ya, lol)

and hey i like the Yankees AND the Mets!

Carole, Life in NY is the fast lane (fer sure, lol)

Taxicab Confessions Carole? hahahahahaha

This sounds like a great idea. I think i remember something about 5 years back. I thought therewas going to be a rail line between Cleveland and Columbs along I-71 or something. Of course we know with ohio it will cost alot more then they say and our great grandchildren might be able to use it by then. It does sound like a great idea. I would love to be able to take a train to Toronto in half the time it would take to drive,

Hey Laurie, They are luxury double decker trains.

I lived in LA before I moved back to New York. I loved it .... fer sure dude I lived in the valley. lol

I love Long Beach, I used to go to the Long Beach grand prix, I had automotive clients.

Yes Carole tell us about the cab ride

Laurie, I lived in LA when I did some work on a presidential campaign, was there for 8 weeks I think. Stayed in Redondo Beach; worked in South LA. Bellflower? My first initiation with 'low riders?' cars that barely were off the ground? It was fascinating. Still remember the smell of honeysuckle at the ocean at night after a hard days work. Didn't take the train there though LOL

Thomas: If you go to the All Aboard Ohio site they have several different plans in the works, but the Hub plan includes a Columbus connection as well. Let's hope it doesn't take so long as all that!

Mitchell dude: Valley Laurei Girl: The two opera singers were going the same place I was only they were better dressed; we were all looking at our watches; the cabbie was swearing up a storm at the traffic the other lady in the car was asking about what it was like to sing on stage in front of all those people (to them not me) and asking me why I waited so long to get to NY if the concert was so soon. She wanted the cabbie to wait (we were already waiting it was a traffic jam) while she ran into a place supposedly to buy cigarettes; he said no, she got out anyway and wound up talking to some guy, they hugged, we were inching along and she got back in the car swearing as much as the cabbie, only her complaint was he didn't stay put. I have to admit she didn't really talk to me that much (DUH) but she seemed rather intrigued by the opera guys. And she wasn't shy lol

JAN

2007

Mitchell, Those trains sound awesome dude! Got pix? Love your pix! Valley boy! I lived in Burbank before I moved to Long Beach, the valley kinda sux dude, lol. hahahahahaha I just added some live footage of the LB Grand Prix onto my downtown post.

Carole, I love the smell of the honeysuckle and the night jasmine and I love the ocean breezes. That sounds like a cabride to remember fer sure dudette.

I'd love to ride to Columbus or Cincy. Living in Dayton, we travel to both frequently. However, it's a shame that the entire SE corner of the state is not connected. That part of the state could use some revitalizing, too! I'm concerned about balancing the benefits to the rest of the state, with the constant neglect to that area....

Carole:

Studies have ben released that suggest that a publicly-funded transit system is always a losing proposition. That being said, as a consumer, I love to abandon the car for a rise on The Coaster to a ride to the PAdres game. American's just have too large a love affair with their car.

I'm going to put in a plug for the "city to the South". Columbus has the wonderful distinction of being within an 8-hour drive to something like 70-some % of the nation's population. We can "drive" to Detroit, Chicago, St Louis, Atlanta, New York and DC in 8-hours. With I-71 and I-70 junctioning downtown, we are a very good location for transporting goods via trucks and/or rail.

The rail system you mention that would connect the "3C" cities, has not met with much support here. It keeps coming up in the news, but usually viewed as too costly and too risky for being not profitable, in other words a drain of tax dollars. Let's face it, we don't have the traffic congestion that New York does, so it's hard for people to be convinced that a 55mph train is a better alternative than a 65 mph car up I-71.

As a short-haul replacement for airplanes, it would be good. A number of years ago, I had a flight into Cleveland. The puddle-jumper flight to Columbus was delayed for 3-4 hrs while they "fixed" the plane. I rented a car and just drove home in half the time it was going to take with the plane.

Brian: Our job situation is critical here so spending public monies with the support of neighboring states is something I'm supporting heavily. It's a plan to lose money to win money in the long run. I see all the other advantages to train ridership but to me, the economic/job incentives are the most critical and I think that is the idea of the plan. Western New York, Michigan, Illinois, all these states need jobs as much as we do in Ohio. Elaine, that is why I am in favor of the entire plan and not just parts of it. It will cost money. Just like they tell us we need to spend money to make money in real estate (I hate that phrase I have to admit), I do think it's a sound expenditure. We don't have traffic congestion because we don't have enough jobs to have it yet lol. Theresa, if all of Ohio succeeds economically then the rural areas can only benefit from it too. Am I wrong about this?

I look at our health care system in Ohio. It's underfunded and State poor. When you go to a State with great economic development each year, their State monies for health care increase and the number of people who are covered under private plans increases. At least this is how I am reading it. As for the 55 mph train, I read that the plan was to increase the speed to fast train service because that is what would make it viable for interstate job sharing useage. Then we can get some of those pretty trains Mitchell posted above.

I don't want to get into a huge debate on political philosophies but no self-respecting member of the VRWC will let this die.

It's a plan to lose money to win money in the long run.

That just never materializes in public transit (see: Amtrak)

Now, if we want to say that we believe it's a taxpayer-funded "neato idea", I'll go along with that premise. I might even support it because I think public transit is "neato". (I am a user)

Amtrak loses money, airlines lose money, I hear you Brian! I'm saying that in order to drive jobs to Cleveland if this job sharing proposal can get off the ground and work we need it! I'm much more willing to have my tax monies both State and Federal go towards a project that costs more money than it will make on paper than I am to send millions of dollars more into things that also don't work like our Iraq policy. How's that :-)

Oh-h-h, Carole just turned up the heat in this debate! ;-)

LOL Elaine, Brian is a honorable discourser I hope he comes back to argue

Sure, what's good for Ohio is good for Ohio, but what's good for Cleveland isn't necessarily what's good for Zanesville...

Hi Theresa, that's sometimes true isn't it. Zanesville could use some jobs too no doubt about it right? What are the big issues in Zanesville right now? I also think that the reverse can be true though, statewide benefits can come from economic gain elsewhere in the state.

I'm much more willing to have my tax monies both State and Federal go towards a project that costs more money than it will make on paper

FDR-type fiscal policy; It doesn't work.

into things that also don't work like our Iraq policy. How's that

Two totally separate issues:

1- Iraq is a proactive strike at the center of terrorism in the world. (common defense). Let's not debate Iraq policy here, though. Too heated and there are too many unknown variables to pass judgement on the President's decision at this early date.

2- Building a public transit system on taxpayers money in order to "create jobs" while there is record-low unemployment is irresponsible fiscal policy. Public funding of public transit is a progressive tax imparted on the middle-class. If you want to take the "eco-approach", try a user tax on all new vehicles made to fund a public transit initiative. I'd oppose that but would be in agreement with the logic. The problem would be this: Americans won't subsidize public transit if their new Hyundai increased some 30% in cost.

I agree, I'm just not sure that a rail system will benefit the entire state, monetarily... I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. I don't know the details, didn't check into it to see where the money to pay for this is supposed to come from -(500 million? Who are they kidding? Doesn't that sound like one of those deceptively cheap bait and switch guv'mint plans?) .

AND (Oh Lordy- my afternoon caffeine just kicked in, here it comes) I was in Boston this summer just days after the money sucking tunnel began dropping chunks on unsuspecting motorists. That was a huge fiasco, and it sounds to lil ol' me like this could be the same thing. Let's face it- The guv'mint screws up everything they get their _____ (fill in the blank) hands on. I don't believe anything they tell us about construction in the great state of O- HI-O. And that crosses party lines, it's the nature of the beast. 500 million to build? Maybe to start, but halfway through we will find out that they need another 500. 6000 jobs all along the line? Count on 3500 and mostly centered in one city. 1600 permanent jobs? That would be if the rail system is working at peak capacity 24/7. <heavy sigh>

Theoretically, I'm there. In reality, I'm not holding my breath.

Okay, off my soapbox, and back to my pleasant self. Have a nice day! ;-)

You have no idea how much I love this discussion, really! Theresa, Brian, I just received an email from the Hub Initiative Director at ODOT and directions to a 138 page document among other things. Believe it or not this kind of reading turns my fire on lol. So I will be on with more news before the evening is up, not that I will have it ALL read, but you get my drift. One thing I will say now, the monies are divided between Federal and state so Theresa maybe we can request future income tax monies from San Diego to go to Ohio for jobs (I couldn't resist Brian, sorry lol) No one wants to spend money foolishly but spending money like FDR wasn't all bad! ok ok I'm done for now. No I'm not, Theresa I like you 'on coffee' :-)

Carole Brian is right and you are too.

Brian said: publicly-funded transit system is always a losing proposition that is correct. Privately - funded transit system is a losing proposition as well. Long rail travel is not that popular. Commuter railroads and subway systems can be very profitable.

The NYC subway was private and profitable until the IRT went bankrupt decades ago and was taken over by the city/state. All the commuter railroads in the NY metropolitan area used to be private. I don't even remember some of the different names.

The MTA the Metropolitan Transit Authority a NY state agency owns and operates the transportation system. They are profitable. Their assets in real estate alone like the undeveloped west side hudson rail-yards is worth $billions. The MTA has so much money to get rid of their surplus they were giving free rides. They were going to reduce the $2.00 subway fare to $1.50 (like that will ever happen)When they did that the transit workers went on strike because of all the money the MTA had, they wanted raises. As long as there are riders there is money to be made.

On any given day the commuter railroads and subways are packed with riders. The MTA often complains they have no money for needed repairs, there are always bookkeeping discrepancies. NYC has so many bridges and tunnels that 24/7 all over the city there are cash registers collecting $4.00 from vehicles entering and leaving the city.

I don't know to much about Ohio politics but last year or the year before the federal transportation bill was signed that gave states money for transportation. The VRWC. lol It had plenty of pork. If Alaska can have a bridge to nowhere I think Ohio should have a rail system. lol Government is not meant to be a profit center. They should make sure we have an infrastructure if needed and make sure it is safe and secure. Outsourcing infrastructure, transit, ports to the private sector is not in the best interest of our country.

Hi Mitchell and thanks! Yes, this is money that is already there for the taking on the Federal side. I was so glad to hear from Andrew Bremer at All Aboard Ohio a few minutes ago that the plan is very much alive and well and of course money is part of the issue... I can send you the document if you are in need of a sleep aid :-)

It is going to be difficult for me not to like this plan because it's called the 3C's Corridor Plan :-)

3C's Corridor Plan great name you can brand it. It can take decades to build. The closer to transportation the more valuable real estate is. Location Location Location.

We are getting some of that money for the High Line Park. Maybe a better use would have been to connect the subway to the high line so there would be subway service on the far west side.

The High Line looks gorgeous, but I didn't realize it wasn't connecting to subway. It has to be at least close to a stop no?

One thing I didn't mention is this 3C Plan (lol) is also tied in to increased rapid transit useage, new stops, new lines. I think Cleveland was estimated to get 17 new stops by 2025.

OK, one of the points they make that is intriguing to me: money lost by cities on gaseoline expenditure. (now of course trains don't run on steam anymore). But for example, Chicago has lost $6 billion dollars to car fuel when that money could have gone to local restaurants, stores, businesses in general. (This sounds like me but it's from the report).

"money is there for the taking"?!!! Really?!? Golly.

Can I have my portion back? I promise not to pork it away in Alaska.

The closest subway is 8th Avenue. The High Line is 10th Avenue. I was used formerly as an elevated freight system. the trains would go right into the industrial manufacturing buildings when we were still a manufacturing economy. Even though there is no subway connection to the far west the peopl who live in Chelsea and The West Village would never go for an elevated subway right out their windows. lol

Not sure I know what you mean here

Chicago has lost $6 billion dollars to car fuel when that money could have gone to local restaurants, stores, businesses in general. (This sounds like me but it's from the report).

Theresa: yes and the government always gives our money back when it goes unclaimed or unused lol

Mitchell: That ties into their overall philosophy that expenditures of money by individuals and companies are disproportionate to other household and company expenditures. Money would still be spent on transportation but they are (as I read it) expecting an immediate 10 percent cut in costs throughout the entire HUB region, in transportation once the initial lines (which look like half of the overall plan) are operational

Freight moving is a big issue, it's already identified as a reason to increase the rail line infrastructure (nationwide) so therefore that adds to the 'seize the moment and the Federal Money' philosophy. The Federal Hwy system cannot sustain current freight travel via trucks. They feel (studies from the last five years all over the country) going back to the rail system and improving it is the only viable way to go - for freight. The system involves trains eventually utilizing speeds of 110 mph which cuts down dramatically on time to reach destinations, freight OR passenger. It's called the Cost of Delivery To Market

They talk about the LA/San Diego system as a perfect example of how housing investments have increased along that corridor based on the Rails.

They use Boston and Denver and Milwaukee as examples of light rail stations that have increased economic value and jobs and sounder housing investment to areas. They didn't mention the High Line lol.Does this make more sense or not?

They even say that the over fifty crowd is moving in larger percentages, (even AARP identifies it as a need of 'their people'). to areas that make cars optional, that as people retire they are deciding in larger numbers that they do not want to rely on cars but want light rail and longer rail systems in place.

So the idea is to have light rail systems that tie into commuter rail systems in all of these 3C corridor cities so that both types of needs are met. Yes, long time to completion!

"money is there for the taking"?!!! Really?!? Golly.

This is why Ohio is a purple state. This will be a good issue to see unfold. Theresa, after you and your neighbors pay for the Cleveland "neato" line, you can pay for the Interstate 5 widening project in north San Diego County. After all, what's another 3% marginal federal tax to Daytonians?

The VRWC. lol It had plenty of pork

I'm coming down on those RINO's as hard as I drop the hammer here, Mitch. Pretty funny but true statement. I'm consistently "RIGHT".

If Alaska can have a bridge to nowhere I think Ohio should have a rail system. lol Government is not meant to be a profit center

Two wrongs don't make a right. We learned that in second grade.

All right. I'm quitting here. All I have is the usual rhetoric out of the VRWC playbook. I like you both too much to beat this drum. All politics is local so I'll play the NIMBY card and defer to Ohioans. Pick up the ball, Theresa. I'm watching but not commenting.

Theresa, Zanesville isn't that far from Columbus is it? Columbus is in the first phase of this plan. Brian I didn't get the impression Theresa was opposed just cautious lol And you missed this part of what Mitchell said:

The MTA has so much money to get rid of their surplus they were giving free rides.

Frieght moving! Are you saying that the "neato" line would move folks AND frieght ?

Okay. In all seriousness, that's something that IS a huge problem here in Dayton- the I-70/I-75 interchange means we have a large proportion of truck traffic on our interstates. However, last I heard (and it's been awhile, so maybe things change) certain Labor groups have done whatever they can to block the revitaliztion of freight rail systems. So the Unions have given their blessing? Not too many things happen in Dayton without that. Oops. Did I just say that out loud?

Brian- A "purple state"? Never heard that phrase, but it's kinda "neato". I can live with that. As far as picking up the ball, I'll do what I can... lil ol' me... a voice crying out in the wilderness... first explain what the VRWC is? And I vaca in San Diego every few years (family in Scripps Ranch). I agree ya'll really should do something about your traffic problems. But keep your hands off all that money laying around in DC. That's ours, sucker! lol.

Carole- great information! Keep it coming. I'm intrigued, too.

Theresa: The unions weren't discussed but I would call them one of the elephants in the room lol. But of course there are always the Transit workers unions. I sent a link to this post to the Exec Director of All Aboard Ohio we'll see if he has any additions or corrections for me lol.

Carole, It really is a "neato" local issue. You go blog your brains out about it. I'm intrigued too.

Theresa, I'm pretty sure it means vast right wing conspiracy.

VRWC= Vast Right Wing Conspiracy

As you can see, I'm passionate but not without humor

Mitchell my brains will continue to be blogged out into the ethernet about this please be sure to bring your towel.

Brian I do like the layout of that website lolol. Glad to discourse with you anytime!

It's the kinder, gentler Brian. I'm focusing on the compassionate part of "Compassionate conservative".

I always like dueling with you. This issue is really out of my league. I try not to get too involved in someone else's local issues.

It was good to have your perspective on here Brian, and I emailed the post to a couple of the Directors involved with the Initiative, there are a good cross section of opinions and ideas here. Good night Mr. Compassionate! lol

JAN

2007

>>>Brian Brady wrote: Studies have ben released that suggest that a publicly-funded transit system is always a losing proposition. That being said, as a consumer, I love to abandon the car for a rise on The Coaster to a ride to the PAdres game. American's just have too large a love affair with their car.<<<

Common carrier passenger transportation is always a money losing proposition when all costs are considered. Airlines wouldn't be in business without public support of airport and air traffic control infrastructure. Even with the subsidies, the aggregate lifetime profit of the common-carrier airline industry has been zero. Buses wouldn't be profitable if they had to build their own highways, and look at Greyhound, they're in the red for about the 3rd time in 20 years. Water-based transportation wouldn't be possible in many areas without government funded ports and the government picking up the tab for dredging of navigable waterways.

As for America's love-affair with the car-- it's more of a shotgun marriage. We have to drive because alternatives are few and far between. Driving subsidizes are huge and dwarf those of any form of public transit as well as aviation. It has been made artificially cheap. When you total up all the hidden costs and subsidies, it would be equivalent to paying $7-$11 dollars more per gallon of gasoline, depending upon what costs you include.

Regarding the Ohio Hub: the 3-C route will probably happen first, as I understand it. The infrastructure work that is needed on the Pittsburgh-Detroit route-- particularly between Cleveland and Toledo--is the most expensive part of the system.

Some good news on the political front, though: Governor Strickland campaigned on the Ohio Hub and the word is that he wants some part of the system up and running by the end of his first term. This is the first time an Ohio governor has so openly supported passenger rail. For Ohio, this alone is a big step.

VRWC. Ah, I understand now. Brian I followed the link. Scary stuff. And you look like such a nice guy in your pic, go figure. jk. Sorry, can't pick up that ball- I'm a chick. lol btw, I think purple is a very accurate description of my politics.

Carole- this really is great information. And I think you understand I'm not trying to p*** on it just because. I'll be waiting for the response from the directors.

Carole: Andrew Bremer is with All Aboard Ohio, unless he got a new job :-)

As for unions: there is a lot of labor support for the Ohio Hub. Not just from the ubvious ones like the United Transportation Union which represents railroad workers, but Steelworkers and others. Ohio has well over over 100 companies in the railroad supply industry. They will do well if/when the Hub plan goes forward.

Surprising enough, the Ohio Contractor's Association (the road building folks) has come out in support of the Ohio Hub. There are a lot of overpasses and other heavy infrastructure work that needs to be done. Hundreds of overpasses/underpasses alone will be needed and at $4-6 million apiece, that's a lot of money to be made.

Gildone, thank you for your much needed information on this issue! What I read that excites me the most is the new job availability for so many people. That and the fact that the 3C Corridor work is something that would start sooner rather than later.

I think, Gildone, you gave me a great idea about lobbying the Governor for one thing. And I guess I did give Andrew Bremer a new job, sorry about that but I hope it at least came with a raise! :-)

Your answers to some of our questions are most appreciated!

An economic impact study of the Ohio Hub proposal (that was commissioned last year by the Ohio Rail Development Commission) is in the works and will be released some time this year. That will be interesting to see.

Just to clarify: it's the Ohio Rail Development Commission (ORDC) that is spearheading the Ohio Hub Plan. They are independent from ODOT, although a representative of ODOT has a voting seat on the Commission.

Thank you very much for the clarification and it makes sense. I look forward to hearing about the economic impact study. And also seeing how many Realtors and Brokerages we can get on board to help promote this plan which will, when implemented, create a lot of wonderful housing opportunities for Ohioans.

3C... does this mean Cleveland might be come the center of all the activity?

NO I will not stand for it. Write your congressmen, call in the troops!

CHICAGO is supposed to be the king of the midwest.

NOT CLEVELAND! Hrumph...

FC: It means it should be easier for me to get to Chicago and harass you :-)

I think I do some might fine cyber harassing... thank you very much. And I don't need no sticking 'spensive train to do it!

Me

When Cleveland truly becomes the hub of the world, as it should be, we might allow you to visit!

LOL...Carole 70 comments on trains! Wow you go gf!

JAN

2007

Geeze, how did I miss this whole discussion. I'll just ditto everything my fellow right winger Brian Brady said on the whole subject. I could add discussion about the BIG DIG in Boston but that would just raise my blood pressure way too much.

Carole,

This is the blog that just keeps going and going.

I have a question. Where was Ohio in the 19th century when the railroad was built? It's the 21st century and Ohio's major cities have never been connected by rail? I think it is about time. Better late than never.

Moni: Turns out it's a very hot topic lol

Linda: Oddly enough, even Bob Taft, may his political life RIP, supported the 3C Corridor Project. But I'm sure Brian will appreciate the support lol

Mitchell: Good question about why not before. I know that individual states did do a lot of RR construction during that time. I know that the Ohio RR was fraught with mismanagement and debt ridden - certainly the Chessie system (Baltimore to Ohio) was a great RR for a long time. Columbus was the State capital by the beginning of the 1800s and Cincinnati was one of the earliest large cities. Of course Cleveland was the only city used heavily for transport by industries that relied on steel Today Columbus is larger than Cleveland in population density and Cincinnati is home to giants in industry like Proctor and Gamble. So I agree with you completely, better late than never. I'm thinking also that during the RR construction time frame there was the building of the Erie Canal. Don't know if Ohio monies got used up for that, you give me a reason to research lol

And to all Ohioans: here is another reason to support this Plan. Our State is still 30,000 jobs below our totals from 2001. For details check out the Policy Matters website. We need jobs!

Carole,

Maybe Halliburton can get a blind bid contract to build it. Then the VRWC will support it 100%

No no no Mitchell don't get Ohio involved with them :-) I'm at work but had to chime in lol

WOW.... Carole... how did I miss this one. I am way sooooo late to this party.

I loved the blog....some great info...short and sweet, but easy to read and I liked the info about the jobs and such. I am tired, but will come back to this and read the comments.

A super post! It's a Perfect post for Localism. I hope you have it on localism too!

JAN

2007

Do you suppose they will hook up to minneapolis? Teh I could take the train and see my auntie.

Mitchell: Ohio didn't miss out on the 19th century when it came to rail transportation. Ohio used to have a lot of passenger trains and a lot of different rail companies running through it. The major cities even had more than one train station.

With the exception of government aid for some specific items like tunnel projects and land grants which benefited the western railroads (and only half at that) the rail system was built in the 19th century primarily with private money. An additional factoid: In exchange for the land grants, the western railroads were required to give the federal government discounted shipping rates. This continued through the 1930's, and by that time the discounts had paid the government back for the land grants many times over.

Carole: You'll also be interested to know that it has been estimated that the Ohio Hub will result in a $1 billion rise in property values within the state of Ohio-this was a preliminary number that came out a few years ago. I'm thinking the detailed economic study should give a more specific number.

Bob Taft did support the Ohio Hub, but that's thanks to Jim Seney, the former Exec. Director of ORDC. He did a lot to educate him and gain his support.

Theresa: In addition to the Ohio Hub plan, there is also a plan for nine corridors radiating out of Chicago (Midwest Regional Rail Initiative). Chicago-Minneapolis is one of these, as is Chicago-Cleveland (although this route may just end up as part of the Ohio Hub). Anyway, you will be able to get to Minneapolis to visit your auntie.

Link to Midwest Regional Rail Initiative website:

http://www.dot.state.mn.us/passengerrail/onepagers/midwest.html

And for those interested, a short video about the Ohio Hub:

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/ohiorail/Ohio%20Hub/Website/ordc/images.html

Thank you Gildone! Ok guys, to make it easier to get there, here goes: Midwest Regional Rail Initiative and the Ohio Hub video:

Gildone, Thanks for answering my question

Carole, I just received an interesting article from the New York Observer titled go beneath the Manhattan market with subway. I can't attach a link because like The NY Times the NY observer is now charging for archived articles, I will put excerpts here and email you the article in adobe format.

Go Beneath Manhattan Market With Subway

By: Tom Acitelli Date: 1/15/2007

Manhattan's real-estate chattering classes (reporters and the sources they call for every story) were atwitter this past week over new reports showing slight price drops in the borough's housing market during the last quarter of 2006.

So what?

The average sales price for a Manhattan apartment rested higher in the fourth quarter of last year than in all but one of the quarters of 2005 or 2004, the peak years of the supposed housing boom. The median, a better market barometer, was just shy of $800,000, according to appraisal firm Miller Samuel per square foot still tickled the $1,000 mark, something it's done since late 2005.

Not only did the Manhattan market continue to be prohibitively expensive, but sales actually picked up in the fourth quarter as inventory dropped, meaning that there's plenty of hearty, moneyed folk among us (or from well outside the five boroughs) willing to plunk down an average of $1,554,645 for a two-bedroom spread, to use one example from the Miller Samuel report.

A period nestled amid the hyperbolic boom that never really happened in insulated Manhattan as it did in places like Las Vegas or Miami.

Neither of which has subways.

New York City's subway is nearly 103 years old, and more people keep riding, despite price fluctuations and the threats of more. Last raised from $1.50 to $2 in 2003, the cost of a subway ride may go up again in 2007, though those in the know (including new M.T.A. executive director Elliot Sander) say it's not likely.

It wouldn't make a difference. If the subway fare went from $2 to $2.25, say, or the cartoon like M.T.A. felt generous and dipped it to $1.50 again, ridership would stay the same or, more likely, increase.

In September 2006, average weekday ridership rose to 5.076 million, according to New York City Transit, the highest level since record-keeping was started in 1970. Monthly ridership in October was up to over 130 million, according to the M.T.A., an increase from the same month in 2005, and a 10-month high.

Like the Manhattan housing market, steady demand and limited options buoy the subway's popularity. (Has anyone ever told you he or she rides the L train for convenience or the No. 1 for its smell?) The average apartment sales price has been near or well above $1 million since late 2004, and, yet, at the same time, sales have either stayed steady or increased, such as the double-digit percentage increases in the recent fourth quarter.

While other cities grappled in '06 with genuine housing-market meltdowns (South Florida's existing home sales slid 16 percent through November, The Miami Herald reported), Manhattan's merely bumped along.

The luxury market especially-zipped through last year like the A train during its nonstop run from 59th to 125th. The New York subway has 26 train routes slicing through 656 miles of track. Manhattan has about 10,000 buyers and sellers annually closing deals, with an inventory of (usually) between 4,000 and 7,500 apartments for sale. The options are limited, the prices generally the same. And the location is always Manhattan.

Interesting how trains and high real estate prices are in sync.

Mitchell, I cannot get over those numbers! 130 million riders a month? Yes,

Interesting how trains and high real estate prices are in sync. You hit that nail on the proverbial head.

and the comments in the article about price increases to ride yet ridership still up as well. Thank you - if you really can send the adobe article, or, let me know if it doesn't work and I can go in and ferret it out. This seems like great 'lobbying' fodder. Of course, we can't match the population numbers but with a train system like this we can try :-)

Carole, There is definitely life without a car! Remember the flight to the suburbs in the 60's and 70's it has reversed. There is now a flight from the suburbs back to cities. Re-urbanization. Cities are in! Cities with good transit systems will benefit. 2 hour commutes will be unsustainable when gas prices go to $10.

It turns out that the schools in the suburbs are not any better than the ones in the city. Many people who left to the burbs are miserable and are coming back for lifestyle, and culture. I gave up my car 20 years ago and do not miss it. I rent one when I need to.

Mitchell.... wow, 20 yrs ago. I know I could get use to city life....but more so as being single....or just as a wife. But if I ever had kids, the suburbs..... when I grew up, I loved having 1/2 of an acre to play on... play football on... but cutting it, when my dad decided to go electric mower and trimmer..... oh my god. Talk about punishment.... lol\

Carole.....even though I still haven't followed or read most of the comments, as of now, this has been very interesting. thanks

Mitchell, so true, just like the AARP survey even says that their membership wants the city not the burbs by a large percentage. I would kill to give up my car, or at least only have to drive it to show homes.

I also agree with you completely about the schools. City schools are large which means a vast arrray of elective classes to take in high school, you are not limited to the one math, one science, one english and one government curriculum. 8 different kinds of history classes not just two or three. Orchestras not just bands. Jeff mentions kids in the burbs - people should definitely choose a lifestyle that works for them or for their families. But, speaking as a kid of the city, I LOVED growing up in the city, walking everywhere, knowing everyone in the neighborhood, taking public transportation to ball games and not feeling confined to a yard. I prefer to restrict my grass and space time to hiking or vacations lol

I think if we really got down to the sociology of it all, people who moved away and came back realized they missed the interaction with people!

Carole, this will simply be golden! Love the concept. I prefer taking trains on short distance travels and have often taken the train over a plane from Baltimore to NYC. The savings in wait time at the airport and delivery right into Penn Station in NYC is simply more efficient. This should do the same for your area.

Hi Jeff and Carole,

I grew up in the suburbs, we had a beautiful backyard, I had a good childhood but boring. When I started going to summer camp around 12, I met kids from the city. They were smarter, hipper, worldlier, sophisticated, independent, less sheltered. I was jealous. They went to good schools too, Bronx High School of Science, Stuyvesant High, HS of Music and Art. I think there is so much more oppotunity for kids in the city, they can pursue any interest. My neighborhood and building is very family oriented and many of the kids have have good lives. Within a few blocks is The Museum of Natural History, The Hayden Planeterium, Chlildrens Museum, Parks etc.

Westchester was nice beautiful rolling hills, duck ponds and nice homes. Segregated living. We would go to White Plains and go to Macy's for excitement lol When I got a little older I would take the bus to the subway to go into the city. Central Park fascinated me. I'm a people watcher. When I got my license all we ever did was drive around looking at nice houses (early interest in real estate) There were some beautiful estates not far from our neighborhood.

It's a choice, my sister and brother (recently brother moved to Nashville) live in the same neighborhood where we grew up. Some people prefer suburban life. I'm not big on malls and I hated moving the lawn so it's not for me.

Manhattan is not for everyone and it's much cheaper to live in the suburbs. I've also travelled a lot and I could live in many places - cities like London, Paris, Milan, Los Angeles, San Fransisco, Chicago, Boston, DC, but that is my preference many people hate cities. I need the energy of a city.

I am getting so many empty nester retiree buyers and they are finding me on the internet, so so much for the stereotype about only young people using technology.

Mitchell.... some great insight to your childhood. Thanks for sharing. I myself, I love the city life..... I liked everything that you mentioned. But I also enjoyed building a tree fort in my parents backyard when I was 12 years old. Going to the hardwood store abd buying the plywood with my own money, the nails.. the 2 x 4's.....

I guess you can say that I am in the middle. But as I said,,,, as I am older, I love the city...especially being single or dating. SO much to do....so many restuarants, pubs, lounges to see. Many museums.... hey, I wrote a series on this. lol

Again, thanks for sharing.

Mitchell- Can you hear yourself? (update 1/19- Mitchell, upstanding human that he is, has retracted his unthinking remark. So I will not repeat it here. My faith in humanity is restored)

Of course you live without a car- you live in NYC. A city built for walking and public transportation, not for millions of residents and their cars clogging the streets. And as wonderful as the train system is, so is hopping in the car on a lovely day and cruising into the country. Rolling hills... passing Amish farms.... following a road along a river....stopping at a roadside stand for fresh tomatoes and corn.... When the corn is as high as an elephants eye.... Wait... wrong state.

Carole- I would be interested in reading the study. Did you say somewhere in this fascinating blog that you could send it out?

Jeff,

I also enjoy the outdoors love the country and beach. More and more people today have a home in the city and a country or beach home. I think that is the best of both worlds.

I can find you a nice pied-a-terre or a bachelor pad. lol

Theresa.... I ignored that comment..... because there are two sides to this. I just want to be in the middle and enjoy it all. Yes, have my cake and eat it to.... ;o)

hey Mitchell..... could it hold 10 guys? This way I could afford it... lol I want some room and not a 15 x 15 for half a mill.

Jeff- I know I took the bait. Youre a better man than I.

Theresa,

lol, I'm perpetuating stereotypes. Sorry, I've been reading too many blogs about stereotypes as marketing tools. I hear my self now.

Carole.. I read each of the 97 comments above me. I figured you needed one more and always enjoy my company. I could feel your excitment through the blog! (I hope my DSL doesn't charge extra for that) I'm with you on it.. best $$ ever spent. Cleveland's Collective Cash Cow! Your location would put you in the spot. I experienced the train system in Europe and its like DUH, lets get it done. Rely less on oil, provide easy public transportation. If this blog was a fishing trip, you caught a... uhm.. big fish. yeah a BIG fish. ps. I lied about reading all the comments. I'm leaving the PC after this comment. audi5000 C!

pss. do you like my 'unofficial' active rain signature? --> Florida Real Estate Appraiser

Hi Guys I just got home from a meeting. That is why I said I think people needed to live where they wanted to live and raise their families. All I'm saying Theresa, is that stereotype of the city as a place that is not good for kids isn't true either. I will go to the school here that supposedly participated in the report and see if I can get one. We've had various meetings around the area where school reps have spoken and that is the info I am using. None of these things are ever black and white and that's the truth. I was giving my own personal experience as well, from my heart. I love the city. Theresa I promise to email the stats to you when I get them! What I really like about this whole discussion is how varied it is. Mitchell and Jeff, my perspective was also shaped by having to move to the burbs when I was in high school, my situation was reversed from yours Mitchell. As soon as I could get out of the burbs I did. I do feel that the negative city stereo typing is much more prevalent. Maybe I'm wrong! I've been known to be wrong before :-)

lol Nick I don't know how I missed you! Thanks for sharing your experiences, and your signature is unique, sort of active rain, artsy, kidnapper esque LOL I like it

JT: Thanks, and I hope so! I took that 'sort of ' same route a few times, only from Union Station in DC to Penn Station and once to Boston. Great, relaxing. I used to judge everything by six hr increments. If I could get somewhere in six hrs in a car or train then no need to fly. Don't get to fly or train much anymore we work too much in this business lol

JAN

2007

Carole-Don't worry about the study, I found the information. I was referring to All Aboard Ohio. I'll check it out myself.

I'm a huge fan of cities. I HEART NY, Chicago, Boston, DC... I would love to live in a city, but don't for a few reasons which I'm not going to bore you with- schools isn't one of them. As we speak, I'm checking into a magnet school in the Dayton Public system for my daughter. It could be an excellent place for her. I agree- misconceptions of all types run in all directions. My only concern with a railroad is will it be cost effective for the state. That's it- $$$. I simply need to do my homework.

My comment about suburban kids was referring to something Mitchell said which he has sinced removed...

Mitchell- Thank you for retracting that statement- you're a good man. I really didn't want to have to turn you in to the VRWC. ;-)

I agree the funding of this is going to be the single most important point. And they know it too I'm sure. So we all await the economic report with baited breath. I believe we have to spend money to make money and create jobs, the financial plan just has to be sound.

One of the things I encourage you all to study is the Lautenberg Lott Senate Bill (I am told it is SB284 and was SB 1516). It could be a key to having Federal monies available for the State of Ohio regarding Amtrak lines.

Mitchell IS a good person for sure! :-)

I will post a second blog on this next week as I continue to get more information.

Theresa, I don't always think when typing..yet alone hear myself. When I heard it, I retracted it.

When I started posting here as Gildone, I didn't realize that no one here was using pseudonyms (or at least not obvious ones). I participate in the forums at Urban Ohio.com where everyone uses pseudonyms. Ok, moving along...

Theresa: ORDC did its homework on the cost effectiveness of the Ohio Hub before they began building support for the plan. The pending economic impact analysis is the last piece of the puzzle in that regard. I should add that passenger rail isn't the only beneficiary of the project. Freight rail will benefit as well. A lot of freight originates from and moves through Ohio and some lines are running into capacity issues. The project will provide additional freight capacity as well which will also result in a lot of economic benefits.

Carol: You are right that it takes money to make money. It's also important to remember that economic activity thrives on good transportation infrastructure-- roads, air, pipelines, rail, waterways. The US has erred in this regard by largely ignoring passenger and freight rail for so long. Our transportation system is about as balanced as a two-legged stool. The system is gridlocking, lacks efficient intermodal connectivity, lacks a adequate amount of strategic redundancy. The result of these shortcomings is that it's costing the economy in excess of $100 billion per year.

3C - Is this the post comments ever posted? How do you consistently come up with great blogs?

Ed: Thank you and how I hate to get my hopes up but hope and excitement are two words I have to use when I see you talk about how this can help with a $100 billion dollar shortcoming. A good friend said to me yesterday that every state should have a viable train transport system. How true. And Ohio's time has come. I am ecstatic that even the highway union recognizes the need for a better rail system.

Dena: When you live in a State that is full of good minds with good educations and a need for jobs and you hear about an Initiative like this one, all the excitement just seems to follow. I think that is why people have made such terrific comments here. I am passionate about getting jobs here and still working on my blogging. But you are kind! All the work you are doing on your blogs about the environment, I can tell how passionate you are about that too.

And the UrbanOhio.com blog/forum is very interesting, in case anyone is interested.

I'm excited, but my excitement is tempered after 11 years of involvement in the grassroots advocacy for intercity passenger rail. Longtime rail advocates (many far longer than me) have endured one letdown after another, constant blathering of half-truths and distortions about passenger trains from the anti-rail crowd, clueless politicians, an even more clueless media, and hopelessly myopic transportation officials. For too long, being a rail advocate has been like being a Brown's fan has been for the past 15 years: Lots of hope, but hopes dashed season after season.

That said, things really are coming together this time. For the first time in Ohio, we have an openly pro-intercity passenger rail governor. There is a groundswell of grassroots support for expanding and modernizing our passenger rail system, a bi-partisan effort to reform Amtrak and correct the key omissions in the nation's transportation policy that have held passenger rail development back came together last year with SB 1516, (now SB 284, as Carol indicated).

Although I should add that the people at large have been ahead of our politicians for years on the issue of passenger rail. Multiple state and national polls that have been done in the last several years that show 70-80% of Americans want a modern, expanded, efficient passenger rail system-- that's a super-majority. Public officials are finally catching up to what the American people have known for years. It is very unfortunate that it took 9/11 and the near tripling of gas prices to make the light bulbs go on, so to speak.

Anyway, the governor has appointed some pro-passenger rail people to key positions already, but the real key is going to be who he appoints to head ODOT. It is imperative that the next ODOT director understand that the "T" in ODOT stands for "Transportation" and transportation means more than highways.

The stars do seem to be aligning this time, so PLEASE don't let my lingering bit of cynicism dampen anyone's enthusiasm. I'm extremely happy to see all the support that is building throughout the state and around the country. It's that support that's going to make it finally happen.

Ed you have been persistent on this for eleven years, I am so happy to see you did not give up. The fact that Governor Strickland stated he wanted the first leg of this program to be underway by the end of his first term - tells me we have some hope for a 'Transportation' director that understands this? I am doing my best not to get super excited about this but it's hard not to!

I love the high-speed train travel in other countries (Germany, China, etc.) and wish it was here. However, being more encumbered at the government level by the lobbying and concern for in-place private (vs. government controlled) industries, this is a hard sell unless it is done on substantially private moneys and that's awefully hard given the amount of eminent domain necessary, because to truly do a high-speed rail correctly requires something for a track infrastructure that is WAY different from what Amtrak has. If they derail from time to time at 50 miles an hour, think of how easily things derail on regular tracks going three times that speed over the same not-quite-even tracks! May the dream come true, though, and angel and I will surely be on one of the first trains.

JAN

2007

What you say about the tracks is true Gabriel (and hi!) but I have to say, Germany has less open space than Ohio has so if they can do it we can! And the same is true for the other states. Plus if we don't do it we will continue to be tied to OPEC and economies that don't work as well as they should with the exception of a few major cities (and they already HAVE trains!). The SB284 bill will allow Federal monies to be set aside for the kind of track upgrades States will need. That will be a big help and we all need to lobby for that bill. When you think about it, even if it starts out at 55 mph (which I understand it will) having the ability to tie in major cities from state to state will really help the economy. Ok I'm getting way too excited here -I can't wait for the time when you are on that train!

The Ohio Hub isn't European-style high speed rail (like France's TGV, for example) that's going to require property acquisition for brand-new rights-of-way. It's 90-110 mph trains using existing rights-of-way which is a lot cheaper than TGV.

Eventually, the US is going to have to start building TGV-style high speed rail, but the way to get there is incrementally by first using conventional infrastructure. Europe didn't go from near zero to TGV in one step. They upgraded existing lines for higher speeds, then built the TGV stuff a segment at a time-- and Europe is still building it.

Ohio tried to go from zero to TGV back in 1981 or 82 and it didn't work. It was too big of a step for people considering the costs involved. There is still some truth to this today even though a super-majority of Americans want trains.

In the 25 years following WWII, we let the extensive private passenger rail system we once had die, so we have a lot farther to go than Europe did, because they never let their rail systems die. Now, outside of the Northeast Corridor, California, Pacific Northwest, and a few routes in the Chicago area, there is little rail service in the US to speak of. So, we need to build the constituency back up and get people riding trains again. Once trains become a regular part of people's lives again, then you can sell the cost of TGV.

On a side-note: the TGV-type lines in Europe are two tracks, not four. In areas where there are four tracks, it's probably because two of the four tracks are used by slower regional and local trains. I've been to Italy a couple of times. In some areas, like between Rome and Florence, they had two separate two-track rights-of-way that weaved over and under each other. Two tracks were for the fast Eurostar/Pendolino trains that made limited stops and the other two were for the slower trains that made more frequent stops (some at every single town)

Oh, and 11 years is nothing. I know of many people who have been involved for 30-35+ years.

Regarding SB294: Neither of Ohio's Senators have co-sponsored the bill, yet. They need phone calls from constituents asking them to co-sponsor and support the bill.

The Ohio Hub will have service that starts out at 79 mph top speeds, then it will be upgraded to 90 and 110 mph.

One segment, between Ravenna and Warren-- if they choose this specific segment of right-of-way which I think they did-- will operate at 125 mph. But that would be the only segment in the whole system at that speed.

If Carole doesn't mind: Ed (formerly known as Gildone)- Thanks for clearing up a few questions I had. I really appreciate your contributions to this conversation.

Carole said: I am doing my best not to get super excited about this but it's hard not to!

Carol: You represent an industry that our elected officials need to hear excitement from when it comes to the Ohio Hub. So put that excitement to work by telling your trade association and elected officials why you're excited and why this is good for the real estate industry. From what I gathered, you've begun this already. Thanks!

oops. made a mistake. I thought Gabriel said that to do high speed rail correctly requires four track infrastructure. That's why I made the comments about how many tracks the TGV's run on.

He actually said, "to do a high-speed rail correctly requires something for a track infrastructure that is WAY different from what Amtrak has"

Sorry for the mis-read and resulting digression...

Theresa! As far as I am concerned, this is now your blog post as much as anyone else's who wants to learn and get active on this issue! So comment away! LOL

ED: Thank you VERY much for the info on where the tracks are, and how it is not the same 'plan' for their layout as they have in Europe. See, now I can get even more excited! Do not worry about the digression because as far as I am concerned (and I'm sure Gabriel would agree), this is valuable info!

I am thinking that I will get as many of my colleagues to call the Senators as possible. You would think both of our Senators would have email contacts on their sites, but Sherrod Brown does not. In any event, here is the info in case any of you want to call them or contact them:

Brown, Sherrod- (D - OH)	Class I
UNITED STATES SENATE WASHINGTON DC 20510
(202) 224-2315

Voinovich, George V.- (R - OH)	Class III
524 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510
(202) 224-3353
Web Form: voinovich.senate.gov/contact/index.cfm

And By The Way this Senate Bill 294 is really something for everyone in any State to be lobbying. Here is the official page to search out your Senators' contact information no matter where you are! The Bill can really help with improving the already existing Amtrak service as well! Here is the CONTACT INFORMATION PAGE

Here's another interesting site where you can see all of the currently proposed rail corridors in the country:

States for Passenger Rail Coalition

It is interesting to note that most of the proposed corridors overlap existing Amtrak routes (not all-- the 3-C being one example).

JAN

2007

Cleveland needs all the help it can get. That whole city needs revamped.Thanks for sharing

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