Open Letter To HouseValues (CC. Active Rain)

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Open Letter To HouseValues (CC. Active Rain)

First of all congratulations to Jon, Matt and the rest of the AR crew.

Now that HouseValues is an investor in Active Rain, maybe some HouseValues people are here on board reading blog posts, and if so, I would like to offer them my suggestions.

Dear House Values,

First of all, make use of Active Rain's blog search. Click Search, type in the word "HouseValues". Take some time to read through the various blog posts, on all pages of the search results. I suppose it's possible that HouseValues management is not aware of how their company is perceived by agents on the street.

While I'm sure some agents have had great success with HouseValues, many others have lost money and have been highly disappointed.

Part of the problem, of course, is in the very nature of any lead capture system. People do not want to give up their personal details when they are simply researching information. I don't. If I am web surfing and I arrive on a site that requires me to register, usually I will just leave. If I really want to see the information behind the registration wall, I'll fill the registration form with fictitious information just to get in. That's human nature. So in the HV lead capture system, agents were being charged for leads from Wilma Flintstone and George Jetson.

So there's item 1 for the suggestion box: Confirm, verify, and validate leads before you sell them.

Item 2 for the suggestion box: Lay off the heavy handed telemarketing. You are an internet company, develop an internet destination that pulls agents in to you. Busy and successful agents do not appreciate the annoyance and interruption caused by telemarketing calls.

Item 3: Shorten your contract terms. Allow agents to end a contract without a cancellation fee. Many agents have a poor image of HouseValues because they know of other agents pushed over the financial edge with cancellation fees.

Item 4: Develop a pay-referral-fee-upon-closing model as an alternative to the pay-for-leads model. Read Brian Brady's post on Bloodhound Blog, read the comment thread, and especially read Brian's comment #6. That thought alone is probably worth your entire investment in AR.

Item 5: Brian's idea again here: Develop the Market Leader tools as a stand-alone suite, with a low monthly access fee, positioned as as alternative to Top Producer.

The new association with Active Rain is a great opportunity for HouseValues to clean up its image. Please don't blow it.

Posted by Cheryl Johnson on 01/24/2008 09:23 AM

Comments (124)

housevalues, active rain

Originally posted at: Random thoughts on art, technology, stuff, and occasionally Real Estate: Open Letter To HouseValues (CC. Active Rain)

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124 Comments on Open Letter To HouseValues (CC. Active Rain)

JAN

2008

Cheryl,

I just have to say it: "Great Post!"

Cheryl, your ideas are great from a realtors stand point. I think as long as HV continues to draw in new realtors (I dont see longtime realtors joining it) they will not change their process. When ever one of those internet lead companies contact me I tell them I would be happy to pay a referral of 25% upon closing.. so far NOT ONE has taken me up on this business concept.. I wonder why? :)) And as you know that is how we realtors work between each other.. pay on closing of a transaction. It is the tried and true method that benefits all.

Cheryl, eloquently stated and I LOVE the ideas! We'll cross our fingers. :)

Great Blog and posts so far! I totally agree with everything said. I can understand why they like to get paid up front from a business point of view, but they KNOW how agents get paid, at closing. So they should addopt that policy. I wish their telemarketers would call on our office phone, so I could say "Just a moment", unfortunately they always call on my cell, and I don't want to eat up valuable minutes keeping them on hold.

Well said Cheryl- I always tell telemarketers, don't waste time with me- I never pay for a lead- but will definately pay at closing. They're not happy when they hear this.

House Values just laid off 45 people according to Inman News this morning.

Cheryl....Very well said and I hope HV reads this. It will be interesting to see what happens as all this unfolds. I do not want to pay for my own leads from my own AR posts...

HV needs to change their model. Paying a huge monthly fee for leads that are not validated is worthless. I'll pay for a valid referral lead at closing! No questions asked. Though I would suggest that perhaps the scale should slide based on the dollar of the sale and commission being paid.

From Inman News: "In a regulatory filing, HouseValues said it expects to post a net loss for the fourth quarter and year, but will save about $5 million a year from the latest layoffs."

Interesting to see that the layoffs offset HV's cost of investing in AR. Also, does anyone know what was paid for RealtyGenerator back in November? Just curious.

Here it is in black and white - what most agents think and how to get our business back. From their IMO deceptive ads of the crystal ball to consumers thinking that some great database in the sky would accurately and freely give them ' the price' and then pocketing huge sign up and continuation fees for their 'limited time only sign up for a zipcode' pressuring comeon from the agents just doesn't build good rapport on either side. So now they know - will they listen??

@cherylljns :). You said it well.

Oh you picked that tidbit up already. I was assured they will be turning the corner on the way they do things for agents. Seems like thats a lot of telemarketers that are out of a job.

Bob: $5,000,000 divided by 45 people equals $111,111.11 per person. Those were some pretty well-paid telemarketers, if you ask me. :-)

You spanked that one out of the park, Cheryl. I guess I'll have to read Active Rain again to find out if anyone else has added their $.02 about HV.

Scott: It took me a minute to digest what you're saying. You're thinking that whenever someone contacts me using the AR "Email me" link, that message would first get routed into the HV database, where it would be then be sold back to me as a "lead"? Now that's an unpleasant thought.

Good letter Cheryl... gosh wasn't it more than 45 people? I have never used HV. I have heard from their telemarketers.

would be wonderful if they would lay off the telemarketing. Love the post thanks for doing it.

Brilliant, Cheryl.

I hate to simply say "Great post" but if the shoe fits...

I hope having a lead generation/sales company for a minority partner will not negatively impact AR.

Cheryl - you rock for writing this post!!

I second everything Monika McGillicuddy said, and I sure don't want any leads from MY posts going to someone else either. Since all email inquiries that come through AR go through AR servers, where will they go in the future? Scott raises a very interesting point in his comment.

I thought Brian's comments on BH were great over there, and they're even better here where we know HV has been reading since the announcement.

Ann

Cheryl, Great post. Unfortunatly, you do not realize how much lousy business can cost you!

Cheryl, I echo some of the comments here. Great post, and hopefully HouseValues will take it in. I've heard so many negative experiences that it will take some positive stories to their service to bring me in, if then.

Excellent post, Cheryl. I hope they read it AND act on it. But I am dubious (sorry, that's the pessimist in me). The funding is great but I wonder what this means for the future. HV has breen practicing the same ways for years now, so what is the motivation to change? They are helping to fund AR and as investors will want some sort of return. I can think of a few things that could be.

Jeff

Cheryl,
Great post, thanks so much for sharing it! I definately learned a good amount from both your post as well as the comments that were left before mine. I definately look forward to seeing what changes occur due to the merger, etc.

Very well said Cheryl. You have some business sense. What will you do if HV offers you a job?

I have had horrible experiences with other lead generation companies and not only VOWED TO NEVER USE THEM AGAIN, but also to educate as many agents out there about how big a rip off they are! I never used housevalues, but I have also not heard good things about them. I definitely agree with the comment to LAY OFF THE TELEMARKETING! Chances are if you are finding an agent on the internet because of a city search, they are already successful and DO NOT NEED OR WANT YOUR HELP!

THANKS FOR READING THIS COMMENT!

You are so right - How much credibility does an Internet lead company have, when it uses old-fashioned telemarketing for its own leads (without regard to the do-not-call lst). ALL your suggestions are good ones - I just hope their Board of Directors is reading and taking notes. And most of all, I hope they don't mess with ActiveRain!

Cheryl, your post should come with this disclaimer..."Ideas stated here are liable to make the imagination run wild and the blood boil...All of which culminate in indigestion for the stomach. More than just a little uncomfortable, but definitely fascinating to watch."

Excellent suggestions Cheryl, I'm sure they are reading right along with the rest of us.

On another note, I guess I should dispense of Wilma Flintstone's and George Jetson's Mortgage Applications, and here I thought I was going to have a monster February.

Wayne >>What will you do if HV offers you a job?<< What an interesting idea!!!

An honest answer would be, like everyone, I have my price. If they offer me super-mega-bucks, how could I turn that down? If they offer me just your run-of-the mill six-figure-income, then, no thanks.

CJ,

I think that "thought" came from the Realtor.com experience. Jim Lee was quite vocal about that at one time.

Cheryl -- Ironically, I got a call from a HV telemarketer yesterday evening. . .had I not read of the funding connection with AR, I would have declined to listen to the sales pitch. But I hung in there and let the guy go through his paces.

The entry level package would guarantee me 3 leads a month at the reasonable rate of $190. Wow -- bargain prices just for me!!! For $1000/mo I would be guaranteed 30 leads. . .fabulous! 30 unscreened raw leads. . .where do I sign!

Unfortunately, the man on the other end of the phone did not understand that I generate 30 plus leads a month, on my own, for FREE. He did not understand how I could pass up the bargain he was offering.

I offered to give him the names of three realtors in my area for the bargain price of $190 -- he was not amused!

I wrote what I think is a very accurate portrayal of my year with HV in a post a couple days ago. Here is a link to that post My Year with HV . I wanted to totally slam them but after reading my post I think I was very truthful and I did receive some positive things from the relationship.

Cheryl - I'm one of the unhappy ones around here. While I understand the need for AR to have capital, I just wish they would have found a different way. No matter how many times they tell me they won't sell my name, harvest my blogs and steal incoming leads, I just don't trust it. I have cut back on my blog quite a bit since the announcement and in fact, gave up the #1 spot in my state. I've spent the additional time researching doing something completely different (and expensive) but it's something I know I will own, nobody else can manipulate. Call me paranoid. I just don't like change, I guess!

Cheryl - Thank you for the refreshing post. I don't see how HouseValues, or any other lead generation company adds value to the consumer or real estate agent. Most of us participate on ActiveRain for the purpose of developing our overall web presence. HouseVaules only motive is to get in between us and the consumer, so they can charge a fee.

Seriously, what does HouseValues add to the home buying experience other than a fee?

People in my office had used them and had bad experiences with them so I stayed away. Great post. I hope they get the message.

1st - I agree, leads need to be verified and confirmed as much as possible. However, let me ask you something - what if George Jetson gave you an accurate address and possible email - and the home happened to be a million dollar home that George Jetson DOES want to sell within a year. Would you REALLY want your lead generation service to withhold that lead from you b/c it's a fake name and #? I don't know about every other agent out there, but I'm totally up for the challenge of tracking down Mr. Jetson if it gives me a chance to list a million dollar home.

2nd - While I agree that HV and other companies like them need a strong internet presence to pull in agents, let's face it - telemarketing ain't going anywhere. I'm sure plenty of leads in agents' pipeline wish they would lay off the phone calls and focus more on emails and websites to draw in their business, but that's not always the most effective way to earn business, is it? HV is in business to make money the same as Realtors and every other company with a sales dept. is.

3rd - The problem with the whole "pay a referral fee per closing" is: MANY AGENTS ARE LAZY - they're not willing to put in the time necessary to actually convert a lead - they don't want to have to chase the lead down and "sell" them on working with them - they want a listing or buyer on a silver platter. Meanwhile, HV is spending the SAME amount to generate the leads - but unless they can trust an agent to put their all into closing a lead, it is just not a sound business model. Would you really want to trust your livelihood to hoping your assistant will do all the work and come back to you with a signed contract?? Probably not...

Other than that, I agree with a lot of what you said - and NO, I do not work for HV. I've simply had experiences with several lead gen companies - some have been good, some have been bad - but I'll say one thing: the harder I work the leads, the more success I tend to have. If I spend $2000 a year on a lead gen company but wind up making anywhere from $5000 to 10000 from it, I'm more than happy with that.

Cheryl, thanks for laying this out. I like the community here and I hope the HV won't make negative changes.

tHEY LAID OFF PEOPLE AT HOUSE VALUES BECAUSE THEY NOW HAVE AN IN ON AR TO CAPTURE LEADS FROME 65,000 BLOGGERS

ive gotten calls from HV...i was never interested in paying for leads. the referral idea is the way to go but they'd have to rely on the individual agent's ability to close the lead. oh well, that's better than trying to charge people awful fees for a name and a phone number. i'd rather cold call if i have to do that.

Thanks Cheryl,

We too are listening and watching carefully. We have subscribed and although we have had some disappointments, we have always been able to justify what we took away from it. Now they are sadly faltering with the rest of the market. But they do provide a service and I believe they have a stand alone for the market leader suite.

Brian Brady said it best....."cautious optimism" is the watchword of the day. I trust the guys at AR to make the right choice. Have never been a fan of lead generation sites. Perhaps if HV gets their ass kicked enough times they might listen to the people who made them who they are in the first place. I know, the glass is still half full for me.

The Market Leader and the Forum of HouseValues were great tools. When we left they were going through some really hard growing pains, so things were not so good. We did acquire a client or two from the leads, but we would never go through them again.

On another note, I'm quite curious to see what their relationship with AR is going to bring.

The blog search was replaced with a Google custom search feature.

I have found that leads from other web sites that have not been confirmed or verified are worthless and not worth paying for.

I for one am very sad to see that AR has partnered with HV in this way. I have used HV before...and now am a direct competitor. I value and appreciate the open forum on AR and feel that the involvement on HV will only taint the 'honesty' and eventually the over all integrity of this site. Its a sad day for everyone on AR.

My fellow agent's experience is that alot of the leads they sell to agents aren't even from people looking to buy or sell. A lot of agents feel that HV just purchases leads from other businesses and sells them to agents. Pair that with alot of fake leads and runarounds and agents lose alot of money by getting suckered into the HV scam. Plus their "never give up" telemarketing plan is a joke -- how very annoying. I've requested the calls to stop multiple times as I'm on the "DNC" list and they kept calling. One day when they called, I acted like I was interested and led them on for 20 minutes asking alot of questions, pretending to be impressed, etc. Then when they asked for my credit card info, I hung up. Sounds mean, I know but they finally have not called back! So it was well worth feeling like a bad person for a few minutes. :) LOL

HV and most lead generations companies like them are 95% bogus. They take money from hard working agents(who haven't been tipped off about the HV scam) and give them time wasting leads in return. I don't know how they sleep at night. Then again, I don't know how most of those that have their hands in agent's wallets/pocketbooks sleep at night(i.e. Local boards, brokerages, newspapers, RE Publications, etc).

Cheryl, I too am concerned about the partnership. I have worked hard on my posts and felt this was a wonderful place to put my time and energy into and now have concerns over what will happen to AR...Thanks for the enlightening post and Congratulations on a wonderful, well deserved feature.

I use Housevalues and LOVE IT! If I get a bogus - lead they take it back. My terms were negotiated at the beginning (I wanted 6 months vs. the 12 month standard). It is like any company, you need to negotiate up front. As far as the fees - they more than pay for themself with one transaction - I had 6 sales in 6 months from them. I also want to say if you are having a slow period with no sales and are worried about the monthly fee - they are more than happy to cut it in half for a few months. Another thing - if the email or phone numbers for the lead are fake - Housevalues will take them back. I have to say if you can't get a sale with Housevalues, maybe you are in the wrong business!

Hi Cheryl,

Hope you don't mind, but I've referenced your wonderful post a couple of times in my own blog - Our company was founded BECAUSE of a very poor experience with HouseValues, so I sincerely hope that our feedback causes them to act and not just re-act.

Wonderful insights. Thank you for saying what's on everyone's mind :)

I don't know how happy I am about Housevalues being investors in Active Rain. I am cautiously hanging in to see how this goes but as much as I love and enjoy Active Rain I will leave if things begin to look shady. I think this could have been a very bad move.

Is it really true? If HouseValues is part of ActiveRain than I may have to end writing anything here. HouseValues was the worst experience and biggest waste of money in my whole real estate career.

If my leads get redirected to them, I'm outta here!

Just wondering here.....did you think Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone?

For Debby White: you state "I just don't trust it"

I want to know exactly what is it that makes you NOT trust ActiveRain? What have we done to loose your trust?

HV has ZERO access to any of ActiveRain's info, any of your contact messages, any of Anything!!

So HV will not be intercepting your leads and selling them back to you!!!

They are free to participate here just like any other member participates here and will be given no special priviledges. In fact, they just purchased advertising here on Friday, just like any other member would.

Make sure to carefully read the announcement. They have made a minority investment. That investment does not come with any power over the direction of ActiveRain or over any factors of the ActiveRain business model. The same people that have created and maintained ActiveRain will continue to make decisions with the foremost interest being the success of our members, period, end of story :)

Cheryl,

Certainly some good suggestions. I believe it wise for any company who's business model could be considered antiquated to consider making upgrades to match the needs of their customers, HV included :)

Cheryl,

...Looks like you have started quite a discussion...and I am especially getting a laugh out of the telemarketing angle...there is almost no way to get anyone voice to voice on the telephone.

I do think Realtors are finding out the more available they are-especially on the phone-the quicker they can get a buyer.

And as far as HouseValues goes, let's hear what they have to say. And keep asking questions.

Steve

Bob,

So glad you piped in here..... I don't mean to be nasty, but let's just be patient and wait and see what happens people.

The AR gods have mentioned and stated over and over and over that our best interest is what is important to them.

I've never done business with HV, my opinion of it was if it seems to good to be true, it probably is.

I take Bob Stewart as well as all the other rain gods at their word (including the one asking about Lee Harvey Oswald :) ........ Let's just not jump the gun and start a negative energy in this wonderful community.

Ok, I'll probably piss some of you off for being positive and standing up for the AR guys, but oh well... Sue me.

This kind of negativity just breeds discontent in my opinion.

Personally, I think it's really sad that the founders of this platform have worked so hard for so long, to provide such tremendous value to their members, AT NO COST, and when they generate capital to keep this network FREE, everyone gets critical...

And Cheryl - Thank you for posting this article, and for contributing some excellent advice.

Rich - I have a customer waiting for me so I'll be brief. It is not that Active Rain lost my trust, it's just that HV never has done anything to earn it - in fact, quite the opposite. I've seen what they've done to agents and I'm not going to waste bandwith arguing about thier business tactics. They are the ones I don't trust. I hope you have better attorneys than last time someone wanted in. I have to leave now and will not be back online until tonight but you are welcome to go to my profile and contact me on my cell if you need further clarification.

My Experience with them hasn't been bad, but the service is not worth the money. The vast majority of people that I visit with have been Just curious, not looking to sell any time soon. They either have recently remodeled or are concerned with the housing market. I will be dropping it once my conttract runs out, and reallocating my funds to more productive advertising.

I agree with Judy Greenburg - I'll gladly pay them at closing. If the leads are so good, why would they have a problem with this.

Great post! I'm amazed at the wide variety of responses and thoughts on the subject. I'm constantly researching various offers that come my way to see if they really seem to be of value in purchasing and usually I find myself unsatisfied when I start to dig.

I agree about the annoyance of telemarketers. Next time you get one on the phone, just say, "can you hold on a second?" and set the phone down and walk away...although I did like the comment someone made about selling other local realtors' names for $190! HA!

I think I'm going to look up blogs on some of the other offers I've been getting thrown at me...thanks!

Rich:

I totally agree...... I do not think that the original post by Cheryl was in bad taste but some of the comments became a little vicious against the people who brought us this community totally free and many of us have gotten good leads, clients and closings because of AR.

I'm sticking with my idea of taking the AR gods at their word because their word is good with me. They've never said they were going to do something and didn't follow through and they've done it all without funding up to this point, so let's give the guys a break.

Ok, stepping off of soap box.... and I'm not going to slip.

As I've blogged before, I use HouseValues and love them. I closed 10 transactions in 8 months in 2007. I have two closings this month from HV and one of those leads gave me a referral and she is closing next month. I met a couple on Monday that are preapproved from HV and showed them 3 homes. I am meeting a buyer TONIGHT that is paying cash for a house at 5:00pm from HV. I have met a wonderful lady whose husband relocated here and she is still in New Jersey. I took her out to look when she was here visiting and she is looking at $600,000 homes (from HV). She signed an exclusive with me to show me her loyalty and we email each other everyday. I'm working with probably 20 buyers right now that I consider hot and another 20 buyers that are slowing responding to my emails/phone calls.

I give back crap leads to HouseValues...if they are wrong phone numbers or email addresses, they take them back and they don't count against you.

But if the person simply doesn't respond to you, you need to figure out a way to get them.

Honestly, I don't like the HouseValues training. I thought it was ridiculous. Since I owned my own marketing,advertising and public relations company for 9 years, I threw everything they said out the window and did it MY way. I can't keep up with the leads. I created my own way of introducing myself, an awesome letter that they read and respond to. It took me several months to get there but once there, I am closing non stop on the leads. I wasted easily $2000 and was really frustrated but not now. I know my way works. Of course I wish I could recoup the $2000 but now I'm doing awesome.

I'm concerned about the direction of AR now that HV is in the mix. You already see their ads all over AR. My guess is that within three months there will be some restrictions coming down the pipe...be on the look out.

Tamara - you've been a member here long enough. In the time you've been a member, have the owners of ActiveRain ever said anything that would cause you to question the integrity of their word, or cause you to lose your trust in them? Don't you think that the infusion of capital will only help ActiveRain continue to provide an even greater level of benefit to its members?

Rich, I do hope that everything continues to get better! Don't hate me for being 'concerned', just voicing an opinion. The AR folks have done a monumental service to the real estate community with this site! I have been on many listservs, but what this community has to offer to the general public and as a networking group is phenomenal. Creativity and vision at its best I say. I think that a lot of agents have gotten a bad vibe from 'lead generating' companies in general, and maybe are fearful that AR will morph into that type of business model. That's all.

Cheryl, Pretty well sums up the markets' attitude about HV. Lets hope they put some of their talented people to work revamping the HV business model.

We just joined AR in November of last year. I'm not concerned about the decision makers at AR, but I am concerned about the new-found "pull" that HV may have on them. I don't know how much of a stock you have to have in a company to be able to influence their decisions though.

I have nothing wrong with you all wanting to generate some capital to fund this outstanding community. I just hope that the capital doesn't come at a cost of losing the community we all enjoy.

I for one can't wait to see how ActiveRain grows and develops this year. The gods at AR did a good thing by putting their heads together to bring us all a place to congregate online. We've made it great by providing users with honest opinions, tips and advice.

One group can't work without the other - so wait and see.

I think time will tell how this plays out. I think that Bob Stewart and Rich Jacobson's remarks help to put things into perspective. I have trust in them and in the rain gods -- On the other hand, I have heard a lot of the same criticisms of HV as raised in this post and it may be instructive to them.

Okey Dokey Then...

At this point I had better hush...

It kind of ticks me off that so many are so quick to assume.

Assumptions are the "Mother" of all screw ups...Don't ya know that people?

TLW...ROAR!

Rich -- I don't know about Oswald. But last time I saw Elvis, he sure looked good for an old geezer. :-)

Cheryl, I must say that I agree with every one of your points in this post.

Tamara - I don't 'hate' you, and you have every right to voice your opinions. Such is the beauty of this venue. I just don't think it's fair to make unfair predictions, and warn others to "Look Out!" when there is no precedence to warrant such alarms. We have been extremely transparent, especially for a corporation that doesn't charge for your membership. We genuinely care about this community, and want nothing more than to see its success and value continue!....

Elvis is still alive???

Cheryl - I have no doubt your post is well thought out and presented with the best intentions. I am not surprised at the various doubting Thomas responses.

People that are unhappy with their experience with any vendor need only look in the mirror to discover the person responsible for their feelings. There is not one person that can produce a contract that indicates any thing other than what they received.

Verbal agreements have no weight. My God, how can you be a real estate agent and not understand contract law? As has been shared since the days of the Old Testament - Let it be written, let it be done.

I have no doubt that the majority of the unhappy customers were seeking the fast track to success. They were blinded by the thought that you could be successful and earn a living by purchasing leads. They listened to the boiler room sales pitches and were singing hallelujah before the choir began the closing hymn. Then, when they realized that they were receiving Internet inquiries, they cried foul.

Sure, they all preach that 20% of the inquiries become a transaction within a year. They do not promise that you will be the agent involved. They do not promise that the inquiry was not also made to three or four other lead generation companies. Perusing the contract reveals...they promise nothing more than crude numbers.

Nobody likes to admit that they were dumb. No one likes to admit that they failed to read what they signed. No one wants to share that they did not protect themselves.

Peel back your onion. If you do not read what you sign, how can you expect anyone to trust that you will protect them in a contractual obligation.

The truth about HV is that you do get what you pay for and when unhappy many refuse to pay for what they get.

If they change their business model and go through the steps to verify leads, the cost of the leads will increase substantially. If agents begin to take care of their personal business affairs, they may see a reduction in their customer base. Should that occur, they may change their model.

They have gone through significant growing pains. They have had to adjust for the change in the market. Their reduction in staff is no different than any other company that is servicing the real estate industry. They are not immune to the downturn.

Regarding the comments questioning the behavior of the owners of this site, what planet are you on? You are reacting like this is some sort of hobby for the folks at AR. You are challenging the veracity of their word and questioning their judgement. You are fortunate that they don't just pull the plug and leave the disgruntled with no where to earn precious points or dazzle their community with their drivel.

It must pain those that created this meeting place to see the callous way they are regarded. It must strike to the core when they read that their statement of purpose and intentions are disregarded like some drunken promise on a late Saturday night.

Paranoia runs deep.....................

Real Estate Client Referrals - as I expressed to you in my phone message, as hard as it may be to fathom, we consider your membership here on an even keel as that of HV. As Bob Stewart indicated previously, they just signed on for advertising, and paid for it, just like any other member would do. There will be no preferential treatment. For that, you will simply need to take us at our word. You are welcomed to participate, as you have been, in our community. There is plenty of room in the Rain!

John - wow....thanks!...yeah, it's a bit disconcerting, and I'm just a demi-god. I can only imagine how Jonathan, Matt, and the others feel who've invested so much of their heart & soul into this platform....

Gracious Rich...

TLW...ROAR!

I like the fact that this post invited HV to look at their public perception. Perception creates reality. only when you know how you are perceived can you really change so that you want to be perceived aligns with how you are perceived. Make sense? (Read Who Do They Think I Am? (Relationship Building, Part 1) for more on that topic.)

A/R is free for me to use. Pretty good deal. A/R is not ( I don't think anyway) a public company. They can do whatever they want.

A/R is free for us Realtors, yet this is a cash sucking new enterprise for Bob and the guys. Let's not forget that. If they needed an infusion of cash, cool. They figured it out.

I find it hard to believe that their goal was to gain our trust, then sell our leads to somebody else, when from the looks of most of us don't buy leads anyway......

So, now that I've been thoroughly tarred & feathered for speaking my mind...

Rich and I had a good talk today. He did listen to my concerns and knows that it isn't the Active Rain people I am not feeling a great deal of trust towards. It's the other guys! It's always been the other guys. I care very much about the future of AR. Just a few months back, we had a close call. Someone promising to be their savior was instead trying to do them in.

I do feel better about the whole deal, but I'm still cautious. Years of life, business and the school of hard knocks have jaded me somewhat. Those that know me understand. Those that don't know me might not ever understand. But I assure you Rich knows and while we aren't in total agreement, he understands.

Be who you are and say what you mean because people who mind don't matter and people who matter don't mind.

I don't like how they will call you and say can you handle more buyers or seller. Like we will say NO! I never tried housevalues.I have tried other lead companies and I will say I will never pay for any lead capture companies again because they are all junk.

Cheryl, you wrote a well-thought plan that could greatly benefit HV, it's a shame it is being turned into a "can we trust AR" debate. That said, I would pay for Active Rain (and will probably when they FINALLY get their outside blogs up, lol) but even it I did pay they would still own the company and be able to do what ever they want with it.

I'm on the record already, I don't particulary care for for lead generation companies, but I certainly don't hate them and everyone is welcome to build their business platform however they choose. I also don't care for some of the business platforms other brokers choose for their business, but I still share information here, co-op with them locally and hug them at networking events.

It boils down to the gods could sell the platform (basically us) at any moment, they have that right! I would hope they care enough about what they built to choose the best fit but they don't owe us anything! It is a weighted risk - learn, participate, generate business and if it all goes to h*ll one day, pull your stuff off quick! I haven't met any of the gods, in fact I've only spoke with one - Bob caught me on the phone, before I started drinking one night, but for some reason I trust them, so I'll just keep playing in the rain and hope they don't disappoint me.

I have been writing many posts about my hope that AR does not sell us out. I really hope this is not the first step in that process.

Micky Mouse, Michael Jackson and Popeye Sailor were all leads I paid for... as well as a dozen local agents checking it out. Never again would I do business with that type of company. They weren't operating on a "business model" but rather a con job. Unless they have seriously altered the way they do business, 45 is just a beginning.

I think the judgment of the Active Rain executives should ALWAYS be questioned. In fact, I do it monthly.

Why? For 18 months, this network was run on a shoestring budget. I asked, 14 months ago, "how ya gonna make money?". I felt that was important to understand that their objectives were aligned with mine. When the Move fiasco happened, I questioned their judgment again.

Please take note that I used the work "questioned", not accused. I always question people's judgment and motivation. I expect the Active Rain owners to act "in their best interest" and I've always understood that/ As long as the quid pro quo (content for SEO) is equitable, they could sell the Company to The Emirate of Dubai, for all I care.

I questioned their judgment, again, after the HV investment. Consistently, the conclusions I've gathered are that Active Rain ownership acts in its best interest...and that best interest is aligned with mine. So, while I question their judgment, the answers, have been, that their judgment is sound.

Try to remain in a state of curiosity rather than a rush to judgment.

Who's been the one to judge them? I see people here questioning them. I see people being wary. I see people being concerned. I see people even being critical.

I feel that perhaps my comments are the ones being taken wrong, but I assure you Rich listened, and understood where I was coming from. After the previous fiasco, I think he truly understood where I was coming from, and understood why I was concerned.

So, if you are following this thread, and think I'm attacking AR, feel free to contact Rich or Bob.

Wow, I'm an ActiveRain Executive now?....sweet! Does that come with a key to the Men's room?

Cheryl- I did subscribe to HV because another agent that I met really raved about how great their leads were. Of course I was new and didn't know any better when I paid them. I worked very hard trying to get one of those so called quailfied leads to close, no luck. The one thing that I really liked about HV was their contact management system thru e-mail. I did not renew with them, but I did come away with some good e-mail templates.

State of curiousity...an excellent approach!

Debbie - I don't think anyone is accusing you of judging us. I totally respect Brian's thoughts, and would have the same level of scrutiny and caution. Even though we have not paid for this network, many of us (yours truly included) have vested a considerable amount of time and content, doing our part to make ActiveRain a success. The only thing that really concerns me are those who pull the fire alarm when there's no indication of a fire. It just gets everyone excited unnecessarily, and the rumors/speculation spread.

By all means, question what we do, and why we do it. But when we answer, openly and honestly, try to give us the benefit of a doubt.

As far as AR getting an investor? Awesome! I think that is great!!! But the only thing that it better mean to me is more exposer for ME ME ME. Otherwise I'll just take my notes and move on along.

But I can tell you of something that has been fact since 2002: I will never buy another Internet lead. I haven't for years and never will again. They are:

(A) Overpriced - I can generate my own leads any time for less and when a lead calls me they are SERIOUS.
(B) Over-sold - how many exclusive leads aren't? Most of them.
(C) Nobody I mean NOBODY knows my target customer like I do.
(D) Internet leads are usually:
     1. Bored with nothing better to do
   2. Drunk and forgot they filled out the form
     3. Pissed at their husband and going to sell the house
     4. Too lazy to actually deserve my years of excellence

Rich if you are still reading these comments I wish you all the greatest success in the world and you'll enjoy it with or without any of us if it is due you. I run a very successful mortgage company and you have a good forum here. I know it's not what you originally intended to have and you've had some dashed hopes and great moments along the way. Kudos and best wishes to you!

Debbie-

I am not judging them, (nor do I accuse you of doing such) I question their judgment (as you did, too). I think that's a brilliant idea.

Rich- you're an executive, now

Awesome! I think that is great!!! But the only thing that it better mean to me is more exposer for ME ME ME. Otherwise I'll just take my notes and move on along

Egoism defined. Ken, we're kindred spirits

I truly care about the future of Active Rain.

I'm also a mom.

So, mother's ask, have you considered (A) or what if (B) were to happen?

That was our discussion. If you'd like more detail, let me know.

So, mother's ask, have you considered (A) or what if (B) were to happen?

Daily Debbie. That's called questioning judgment; it ain't a bad thing.

Oh and yes, Rich did answer my questions openly and addressed my concerns. So, while I'm still cautious, and still exploring my personal options, I am giving them the benefit of the doubt here.

Aren't they laying off people? Good post. Perhaps they will be listening.

Companies invest in other companies to reap a good return on their money. Obviously HV believes that they'll receive a better return on that $2.5M than somewhere else in the stock market. So as Brian says, one of the first questions I pondered was "where will that ROI come from"? I have my thoughts, but I'll keep it to myself.

As has been said in posts that are nearly a year old, the Rainers and their posts are what give value to AR. HV needs to keep that in mind.

I personally hope they don't start spamming us with even more emails or telemarketing calls.

JAN

2008

Yes. I'm hoping that this marraige will bring with it some advantages... hopefully that housevalues will learn a great deal from active rain.

One of the comments that was made to me when I questioned what "might" happen was "Do you have 2 Million Dollars? If so then complain, if not."....(something like that).....well, that shut me right up.....Money Talks......that is business, and AR is a business....for them, the Founders, Investors, Techs, and all of them. And it is a Business for us....everyone that is on here to try to improve something about their business....more leads, more exposure, somewhere to learn for free, whatever it is why we're here..........

But the Bottom line is a business is a business, and sometimes the Owners have to make tough decisions, and sometimes they make decisions that no one else could understand........and sometimes the decision is without any obvious or evident changes, and sometimes not. Bottom line is I didn't have 2 Million Dollars, and bottom line I don't own this Company.......I just get to use their "Product" .......

With that said.....I am watching, and listening.......not judging. And Richif you come back.....don't ya just love being hired at such an "exciting" time LOL........

AR owes me nothing. I say that with no reservations.

I freely put up content and photos. The benefit that I measure has been mostly mine.

It takes money to run a business. A capital infusion seems fine to me.

Also, I'm comfortable in the assumption that AR can/would be sold to the right bidder.

And it takes money to press a $30 million dollar lawsuit. I'm assuming that HV saw merit after a little legal review and along with an interest in AR, HV bought a bigger chunk of that $30 million for footing the bill for the pedigreed legal beagles.

I hope they cash in.

I used to think that I was suspicious of everyone, but apparently I am not. It never ONCE occurred to me to suspect that HouseValues would steal my contacts and then try to sell them back to me.

It never once occurred to me that Active Rain, as we know it, is ruined...

Maybe I'm more naive than I thought, but sheesh...

I dunno. In some ways I feel skeered that it didn't occur to me to worry about such things, and in other ways I think, man, I'm glad I'm not that paranoid...

Thanks for the complex, guys...lol

Karen needs to see Cheryl's post today:

"Don't Worry, Be Happy!"

LOL

**grin**

Saw it already. My dog was annoyed with the music. LOL

I don't have time to read all of the comments but each of your points is spot on and should be heeded by HouseValues. I tested them for my company and the leads were terrible. Plus, the constant sales calls are truly harassment!

TO ALL OF YOU

I trust Matt Heaton. I asked Jon on his post that announced the sale why they didn't offer to sell us (the members) an interest in AR like Matt had previously told me they might. Matt answered by saying that the legal costs of an offering to us was prohibitively expensive. I can understand that. A private placement is a lot less expensive and quicker, too. Matt restated that HV was simply making an investment in a Tech company that they believed had potential.

Matt also said that the capital infusion would allow them to develop products where they casn make some money.

I for one appreciate ActiveRain. I think Matt and Jon deserve to get paid. I think it is in all of our interests for them to have enough money to pay their employees. We were all "concerned" when Caleb left, but now we have Bob and Rich and the others. I'm grateful for the HV investment. And I hate HV as a company. I think their leads stink. I hate being called on my cell from their telemarketers and I hate their spam email. I think that they get the leads by misrepresentation. But I'm glad they invested in AR. I just hope they NEVER get a majority position.

Bill Roberts

Thanks for all the great comments and education. I also tried HouseValues - or was it one of those OTHER companies - to be honest I don't remember. The leads I received did not pan out at all - mostly it was the lookers who were searching for a freebie CMA but had no true interest in selling. I come from a rural area where not as many leads would be coming as if I were located in the city so I didn't find the service useful. So I cancelled the service - just like so many other ideas and services that have been tried over my 24 years in the business. I just chalked it up to experience and moved on to the next thing.

I've only been on AR for a short period of time - when I first read the article about HV, the article made it sound like HV bought a controling interest (or maybe that was just my assumption based on what I read) but I was also concerned. I immediately logged into AR to search to see if there was any talk about it......I guess that answer is a big YES!

I too am interested to see where HV goes with their investment in AR. So what if they advertise more on this web site - I can ignore them as much as I ignore the rest (sorry, advertisers!).

I urge all to not jump to conclusions and assumptions as I have read through most of these comments and appreciate those who have urged caution. While accumulating points is kind of fun and all, I most appreciate AR for the education and sharing of thoughts and ideas - real estate related and not! If I get a referral or two (or more) from it - more the better. But if I don't, I still win through my association with all of you!

Have a great day!

I firmly believe that the old Homevalues model is dying!!! While the little guys are figuring out organic marketing and localized presence the lead companies are atrophying. Power to the people...

This post and thread is further proof of the beauty of AR. The contributors here are some of the best and brightest in all the land....

That said, this free little forum has brought a lot of us business. Have I closed a loan because of AR, yup. But that isn't the real reason that AR has benefited me. I get to learn daily from some of the smartest and most experienced professionals across the country and that will prove to be priceless.

We live in a capitalistic society and AR was born & bred in that same society. To live in such a society typically takes a dime or two or three.....and while I question everything, I understand this decision within the realm we live and it helping AR continuing to breathe.

Such is life, now can I have the key to the men's room Rich....I have to go potty:-)

Wonderful Post. I do hope HV reads it! I am currently with housevalues and can't wait to get out of the contract 2 more months!! I have spent alot of money so far and have not earned a commission yet from it. They do need to change there system to get agents returning.

Luke Hilliar

I like Bill Roberts' comment.

Cheryl,

This is a great post.. you noted most of my gripes about lead aggregation companies in general and HV in particular.. That said I also agree that the AR Honchos have the right to do what they wish with their company..and are certainly entitled to make a few bucks off their creativity.. As Brian Brady noted as long as our needs are compatible I'll be here for the ride.. AR has been a great tool for me.. and I have the utmost respect for everyone associated with AR. But if I suddenly start getting bombarded by calls from HV I will be very disappointed...

Rich....please come back and give Jason the key to the "Mens Room" ....you did get a key didn't you :)

It would take a lot, and I mean A LOT, for me to want to purchase anything from housevalues. I hold that company in the lowest esteem. Changing their 'business model' wouldn't be enough.

Great post. I didn't read all the comments. I am curious as to whether anything was responded to. So, it looks like to the comments I go....lol.

JAN

2008

I've read every comment so far. Very interesting trail of remarks. I don't know if I feel smarter or less smart, but I do appreciate the new terminology: AR Execs! Also, thank you Bill Roberts for answering a burning q regarding members investing in AR. Darn!

JAN

2008

AR Leaders,

Thanks for this great forum. You deserve to run it like a business. And it would be silly to think you should not make at least enough $$$ to cover your time and expense. It is beneficial to all of us.

HV -- don't like their company, don't like their training, folks in our office who have used them (various ones on and off for 6 years) have had a negative return on investment. I am really tired of them calling to solicit me. I have asked every time to be removed from their calling list, got one last week. About a year and half ago, the affiliated (started) their own real estate brokerage. Now this was in direct competition with the agents they were selling cruddy leads. Didn't work out. I tell all the new folks in our office to check with one of the veterans before they spend their money. At least they can get our perspective.

Thanks again for keeping AR solid.

List and Sell (and don't buy leads or anything else if the ROI is bad) Gary @ RentonHomeFinder

I tried HV for a time and found it extremely expensive and the leads weren't panning out. I hope they revamp. Thanks for a great post. Maybe they will wake up and smell the coffee.

JAN

2008

Cheryl

Excellent! Your suggestions are right on the mark. Recently I have been besieged with telemarketer calls which are disruptive, unappreciated and unsolicited. It is counter productive to me ever wanted to do business with any of them.

We are in sales too.... rule Number One. If a customer wants what you are selling...they will call you!

Thanks Cheryl and Brian for a post well said.

FEB

2009

So it's true that Housevalues is an investor.... Was there ever an official post about this?

Victor: Yes, HouseValues (not MarketLeader) is a minority investor in ActiveRain. It was formally announced HERE.

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Cheryl Johnson

Highland Park, CA

More about me…

Cheryl Johnson, Bob Taylor Properties, Inc., Los Angeles, CA

Address: 5526 N. Figueroa Street, Los Angeles, CA, 90042

Office Phone: (323) 257-1080

Email Me

Caution: CAT BLOG AHEAD

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Enjoy!

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