Andrew= excellent writerThis post was inspired by Andrew Lenza’s post Playing with House Money Inside the Titanic’s Casino! Receiving an Offer. If you’ve never read Andrew, here on Activerain, you should, he is a fabulous writer.

 

I was going to comment on Andrew’s post, but realized what I had to comment was too long, so decided to share a situation I had several years ago with some friends, who were past clients.

 

Let’s say Dick and Jane, moved to Ann Arbor many years ago and I introduced them to a builder who built their new home. After a few years, Dick lost his job and although he was able to get a new one it didn’t pay as much. So they decided to sell their home and rent. The market was good at the time. They were going to rent, get back on their feet, and pay off credit cards. 

I asked them if they were behind in any payments. Their response was no; however when they refinanced, County Wide was suppose to make a payment, did not and now they had one payment that was behind. I told them DO NOT MISS ANYMORE PAYMENTS!

We listed their house and over the listing period, of a month had 3 offers. The last one was going to work, all contingencies were met, so Dick took off the week before they were suppose to move into their rental and got all of their furniture and belongings out of their house into the rental.

The night before closing, I went over to get my sign and lockbox. (Never again... do I do that until after the close) The new buyer was there with one of those rolling carpet measuring sticks. So I went in and said hello to them and their Buyer Agent. I asked if they were replacing the carpet, because the house was only a couple of years old and neutral.

“No, we are just measuring the square footage”. “Our lenders appraiser, came up with a different amount,” they said.

When I left the house, I called Dick and Jane and asked them to please dig up the appraisal amongst their many boxes and bring it to closing as there was a discrepancy in the square footage that Mr. Buyer was concerned about.

When I listed the property, the tax records said 3000 S. F. However, when I went to the house to list the property, Jane told me that was wrong that they had an appraisal saying 3500 Square feet.  (my mistake…I should have asked to see it) However, I did not ask to see it and relied on her information. On my listing contract you can see where I crossed it out and added the additional square feet, per appraisal.

No real damage done, or so I thought as the sellers did have an appraisal that said 3500 S.F. She brought it to my office the next morning, which I faxed over the Buyer Agent for his client to review.

The loan was funded, the house appraised for the selling price...

As we were walking out the door to attend the closing, I received a call from the Buyer Agent saying Mr. Buyer was not going to close unless we came down on the house.... $20,000.00 to reflect the difference in square footage.

 “What? I faxed you the appraisal?”

 “Yes, but he doesn’t agree”.

So, I called an appraiser I knew and said I would pay him, but could he “please go over quickly to measure this home”? He did and it was also a different square footage, than the tax records and different than the sellers refinance appraisal. Now we have four different measurements:

Which one do you trust?The builder, the tax records, the lenders appraiser and the one I hired to check the measurements.

The buyer still refuses to close unless we come down $20,000.

The funds are sent back to the mortgage company.

To be continued...

(It gets better) 

 
Post is included in group: Real Estate Risk Managment

45 Comments on A Nightmare to Remember

Missy - Your killing me. I feel like I just watched the last episode to my favorite show and have to wait till next year for the conclusion :)

01/28/2008 07:58 AM by Bill Gassett Metrowest Massachusetts Real Estate (RE/MAX Executive Realty)


Missy, Boy, Nightmare was right!  I can only imagine this scenerio and I too am wondering what happened!!  I am somehow hoping it worked out......

01/28/2008 08:11 AM by Carole Provenzale Owner, Feng Shui Long Island & New York (Feng Shui Long Island & New York City)


Missy- Oh my! A nightmare ! I do not envy your situation at all! Here, many appraisers just do drive by's! Katerina

01/28/2008 08:13 AM by Nestor & Katerina Gasset, Realtors® Wellington Florida Luxury Homes (International Properties and Investments, Inc.)


I had a similar thing happen after an appraisal. The home was about 300 sq ft smaller than stated in the Auditor's record. The Auditor's number was based on the builder's plans. Builders sometimes count the 2-story open space as usable sq ft. The home had been sold 2 times before even though it was a fairly new home, so a couple other appraisers had missed the error. The error was that the Family Room jutted inward not outward as the Auditor showed.

My buyers also wanted $20K off the price, which was unrealistic. I had them work with their attorney, as our contract doesn't cover the issue. They only succeeded in getting an adjustment of $2K.

The seller was upset since HIS appraiser had missed it when he purchased the home. He was going to go back to ask HIS appraiser why HE didn't catch it.

Just shows you how inaccurate an appraisal can be.

01/28/2008 08:19 AM by Elaine Reese, REALTOR® in central Ohio (Real Living HER, Worthington Ohio)


Missy, I totally hate these situations!  Besides which, there are so many different ways to measure square footage.  When I've seen buyers do this, they measure each room and add it up.  Here, the tax guys and appraisers take the outside dimensions, so they include the closets and utility ducts and all that.

And Geez Louise!  They didn't base their decision about what to pay on the land records, but on the house itself!  I hope they get over it!

01/28/2008 08:23 AM by Patricia Kennedy (Evers & Company)


Hi Missy,
This sounds like a nightmare.  In our MLS, we list square footage as a range (example 2200 to 2600)  Has worked well for me so far.  My experience is tax records, builder and appraiser's are never the same.  

01/28/2008 08:24 AM by Cynthia Tilghman, Realtor® Onslow County NC Home Specialist (Kingsbridge Realty, Inc)


Sheesh - good thing someone caught it.  I find this funny though - have always thought the appraisal world was more art than fact...

01/28/2008 08:25 AM by Matthew Rosov, Certified Mortgage Planning Specialist (Envision Lending Group)


Missy, Here in NJ it is very rare, unless it is new construction to find the sqft of the home on the listing. The reason is why is what you just explained. There had been a lot of lawsuits against agents seeking the difference in price. Most people buying a home visit the house a number of times, they can see how large or small a house is. The listings do post room sizes so if someone wants an estimated amount.

01/28/2008 08:26 AM by Jean Doyle Morris and Sussex NJ Real Estate (RE/MAX House Values)


Scary... but very interesting, and I'm looking forward to the next installment.  I just wrote about my first day here in Honolulu (Hawaii is my home) at the CRS 2008 Sell-A-Bration if you feel like taking a break for some 'lite' reading.  

Aloha,


01/28/2008 08:29 AM by Susie Blackmon NC Realtor, Maggie Valley, Waynesville (COLDWELL BANKER)


Missy, I wish people would not be so concerned about square footage when purchasing a house. Instead just look at the house and compare it to ours on the market and their corresponding asking prices and make your decisions.

01/28/2008 08:38 AM by Jill Wente - Spring TX Real Estate (Prudential Gary Greene)


Missy, what a picky buyer. Don't they like the house? Shouldn't they have agreed on the square footage based on one source up front? What a mess.

01/28/2008 08:38 AM by Gary Woltal - REALTOR® Dallas Ft. Worth (Keller Williams Realty)


What a nightmare, with it being 500 sqft more, did it not apprasier higher? I'm lost, why come down 20,000. That is just out right nuts?? Good luck with that one.

01/28/2008 08:48 AM by Jeannette Neerpat, e-Pro Coral Springs/Parkland Real Estate (London Realty Corp)


There are as many "estimates" as there are "experts" taking the measurements.  A few things I learned over the years are:

1.  Standards for square feet measurement were promulgated by the NAHB about 5 years ago.  Builders use this standard, which is often recorded in the tax record if the house is appraised by plans and specs for loan approval and may be in the builder's Master Appraisal Report.  This measurement is based on the original floor plan recorded with the permit office and doesn't always include bump-outs, extentions, room additions like sun rooms, etc.  It's an imperfect measurement but seems to be in a lot of our tax records.

2.  The lender is going to rely on their appraiser's report because that is the only current one and gives them more protection.  The two appraisals may be using a different set of standards.  However, it appears that, since the lender accepted the seller's appraisal and funded the loan, it's a moot point.  I won't commit in print what I think the buyer can do with their rolling tape measurer. 

3.  When a buyer's loan is funded and the buyer is still trying to negotiate the price of the property, the only word to describe it is extortion.  Settlement is scheduled.  I'd go with the sellers and if the buyers don't show, declare them in default and reactivate the house for sale back to ACTIVE.

4.  Next thing you know, the buyers will ba asking the real estate agents to "chip in" some of the commission to "make the deal work". 

5.  I wouldn't want to sell a house to these buyers because, if they close, they will be ripe for a lawsuit based on misrepresented square feet.  Wouldn't be the first time.

You've got a tiger by the tail and I can't wait for the next installment. 

I like Andrew's stuff too.

 

 

 

 

01/28/2008 09:02 AM by Lenn Harley, Homefinders.com, MD & VA Real Estate


Hi, Missy.  i'm looking forward to seeing which rabbit you pulled out of which hat to solve this.

01/28/2008 09:03 AM by Karen Webster...Grand Rapids, MI Realtor (5 Star Real Estate, Grand Rapids MI)


Missy

This is indeed a nightmare

Sincerely

Tom Braatz

01/28/2008 09:20 AM by Tom Braatz, South Eastern Wisconsin (Tom Braatz)


Missy,

My goodness,  how strange to have so many different figures. I agree with Lenn's point #5 ...these buyers are looking for a price break one way or another and even if it closes, they seem like the types that will look for things to sue about after the fact.

Looking forward to the next part,

Jo 

01/28/2008 09:34 AM by Jo-Anne Smith-Belleville, Quinte and Prince Edward Region Real Estate, Ont. (Royal Lepage Proalliance Realty, Brokerage)


Thanks for your comments, I can't answer too much you you will get the ending...

I'll give you a hint...

Two attorneys.... both disguesting.

 

01/28/2008 09:37 AM by Missy Caulk Ann Arbor Real Estate (Keller Williams Ann Arbor)


So what happened Missy. This cliff hanger has me on pins in needles. You have a good writing style, one of the reasons I enjoy your blogs.

01/28/2008 09:40 AM by Maria Couto,ABR,CRS-Berkeley Heights & Long Hill Real Estate Homes for Sale (RE/MAX Classic Group-Berkeley Heights Realtor For Sale/Sold)


Wow, my comments would pretty much echo the ones already posted, so I'll just hang tight to hear the next installment of Missy's Adventures in Real Estate.  :)

01/28/2008 09:44 AM by Lake Wallenpaupack Pike County PA Real Estate | Karen E Rice (WEICHERT, REALTORS® Paupack Group )


Missy - since the house was still fairly new, wasn't the builder still around to verify the square footage with blueprints?  That would have been my choice.

Will be interesting to see the "rest of the story." 

01/28/2008 09:57 AM by Carol Smith, ReMax Preferred, REALTOR®, Toledo, OH (www.calltoledohome.com)


Missy,

Unless you are selling the property on a 'square foot' basis of so much$/square foot...there shouldn't be a problem...the home is what it is. In PA, I advise agents never to sell a property per square foot, even an empty lot...and the 'containing clause' in deeds is one of the least reliable places to look...second would be the tax records...third would be the appraisal! Only the architects figures or the surveyors figures are accurate...and they are human and can make mistakes also!!! Thanks,   Fran

01/28/2008 10:09 AM by Fran 'The Title Man' Gaspari Title Insurance-PA & NJ (Patriot Land Transfer, Inc.)


Wow, I am gonna have to park so I can read what happens.

01/28/2008 10:15 AM by Linda Futral Sells Coweta, Heard, Meriwether & Troup (RE/MAX Today)


I feel really bad for your situation.... I can't wait to read what happens next......

01/28/2008 10:30 AM by Donna Paul Dix Hills,Melville,Wheatley Hgts Homes (Keller Williams Realty Greater Nassau)


Missy... I know people get hung up on numbers when it comes to square footage but didn't think that would be a basis to allow them to renegotiate the contract terms.  MLS data does have a disclaimer telling prospects the information should be verified.

01/28/2008 10:33 AM by Dan Cummings - Connecticut's Running Realtor (Raveis Real Estate)


When is the next installment coming? I can hardly wait...once lawyers get involved, anything can happen. LOL

01/28/2008 11:36 AM by Gail Reeves Reid (Keller Williams Real Estate Brokerage)


Thank goodness I don't work in a state where I would have to measure!  A lot of homes in our town are listed with 0 (yes that is zero) square feet because we have no way of knowing what was permitted and what was bootlegged.  The measurements are left to the appraisers.  I like reading posts like this because it puts out actual situations we can learn from.  Will be checking to see where this went/is going.  Thanks, Missy.

01/28/2008 11:47 AM by Elaine Hanson, REALTOR® ~ Topanga, CA Real Estate Specialist (Pritchett-Rapf & Assoc. Realtors, Topanga)


Missy, This just doesn't sound good at all. I always go by the public records for sq footage and disclose this in the listing. If the sellers say it is wrong then I measure the house myself. Then I round down.

The thing about this though is the house is the same size it was when the buyers first saw it regardless of what the sq footage is. Nothing has changed. They liked it well enough then to make an offer and should still like it well enough to close. If it appraised then I really don't see an issue.

I agree with Lenn that these buyers could be trouble after the closing if it makes it that far.

And of course the lesson learned is verify, verify and then verify again. 

01/28/2008 01:40 PM by Bryant Tutas-Tutas Towne Realty, Inc


Widggy, Are you kidding me? where did you go? come back and finish your story!!!

01/28/2008 02:50 PM by Camarillo CA Real Estate Agent/ Mana Tulberg (Beach View Real Estate)


Missy, I always want something to back me up as far as square footage goes but to be honest I thought an appraisal was good enough.  It sounds like in this case it was not.  Just can't wait to hear what happens once the attorneys get involved.

By the way I have TOTALLY enjoyed Andrew's Blog.  I have been following it for quite some time and he never cease to amaze me with his writing.

01/28/2008 02:57 PM by Marchel Peterson Spring TX Real Estate E-Pro ABR (Results Realty)


Missy ~ Can't wait to hear what happens next.  I agree with Lenn I think the buyers are after your commission next,  definitely sounds like trouble.  Keep us posted.

01/28/2008 04:09 PM by Sue Berger ~ Gladwin MI (RE/MAX River Haven)


Missy, Wow! I appreciate the mention and the glowing compliment. So sweet of you...

Ah, the square footage is the Pandora box of real estate. Some local agents in my market refuse to include square footage -- approximate or estimate -- in the MLS for they very reason you describe. Tax records have been known to be wrong. I'll try and research the property at Town Hall but we're a rural community. Some records don't go back further than the 80's -- go figure.

Square footage used as leverage. Curious how the buyer arrived at $20,000 for the missing 500 square feet. I'll stay tuned. Waiting with baited breath ...

 

01/28/2008 04:36 PM by Andrew J. Lenza (ABR*GRI*MBA) Monmouth County NJ Real Estate Broker (Andrew J. Lenza Realty)


I have my popcorn ready as I wait for part 2. I must share this with my office. Square Footage always makes me nervous. In Rhode Island, the MLS solved the problem by not including it in the listing at all.

01/28/2008 06:33 PM by Linda Davis (RE/MAX Realty Group)


Missy, I have been through the very same thing twice. Both times my seller made a concession but that sounds like too much of one. Does your MLS and the site you placed the listing have any disclaimers that could help you? Our MLS states that all information should be independently verified. I think I would sue for Specific Performance...um...depending on the rest of the story. When will we get that? Deb

01/28/2008 10:01 PM by Deb at Brooks Prime Properties


MISSY: On January 2nd we received this communicae from our MLS: Square Footage violations - Square footage should be the same as on the Assessor's card, which shows all above grade square footage. In remarks additional finished square footage can be discussed. If agents disagree with the Assessor's card the agent needs to work it out with the Assessor's office. Basement finished square footage should be reported separately. Builders should not be allowed to dictate how listings are shown in DMAAR MLS. At first it seemed burdensome, but now it seems like..a good way to keep out of trouble!

01/28/2008 10:48 PM by Matt Grohe CRS, GRI, ABR (Remax Real Estate Concepts)


Missy,

In this business we don't need buns of steel but nerves of steel sure come in handy. I'm looking forward to part II.

01/29/2008 12:09 AM by Susan Peters - Seattle Realtor/Staging Specialist (Re/Max Mutual Realty)


I should have waited to read this till morning - I am going to have nightmares

01/29/2008 01:08 AM by Central Oregon Real Estate | Thesa Chambers, Broker (RE/MAX Sunset Realty La Pine)


Missy- I can't believe you didn't tell us what happened.............4 different measurements, and a buyer wanting  a 20 thousand dollar discount.....so when is the next part of the story?

01/29/2008 01:29 AM by Kathy McGraw ~ Calif Broker (CELLing Realty)


I think this is a scenario that we have all hoped we'd never be in....can't wait to read what happened!

01/29/2008 06:06 AM by


I confess Part II brought me to Part I so I know what happens. How could there be FOUR different measurements? Isn't there a universal way to measure so that there's a teeny measure of conformity? No longer am I including sq. ftg. measurements in my listings. I'm sorry this happened to you, Missy.

01/29/2008 06:35 AM by "Antoinette" Scognamiglio ~ GRI Morris County, New Jersey Homes for Sale (Prudential New Jersey Properties)


I feel for you as in one of our local boards many agents will not put sq. footage at all in the required field. They just put zero. 

Those roller wheels can be off, too.

01/29/2008 08:29 AM by Jay McGillicuddy~Real Estate Broker (Prudential Verani Realty)


Missy:

I have had a few nightmares to remember so thanks for sharing yours so that I can learn from yours as well and not have to make them all myself.  I read this earlier but did not have the time to comment and today I was doing a CMA for a buyer (considering making an offer) and the house she liked seemed suspiciously higher in sq. ft. (over other similar ones and more than public records).  So, now I am going to make sure if we make an offer.

01/30/2008 12:47 AM by Cathy Tishhouse Royal Oak Real Estate (RE/MAX Showcase Homes)


Okay I should have read all of these prior to making a post on story III, the conclusion....oh my gosh!!

01/31/2008 06:43 AM by Karen Moorhead Ann Arbor Area Real Estate (Keller Williams Realty)


Missy - I started at Part III but came back to the beginning to get the full story. Going to read Part II now!

02/02/2008 09:45 AM by Kelly Shoemaker Realtor Broken Arrow, OK (Coldwell Banker SELECT)


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Real Estate Agent: Missy Caulk Ann Arbor Real Estate (Keller Williams Ann Arbor)
Missy Caulk Ann Arbor Real Estate
Ann Arbor, MI
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