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Cigarette Anyone?

I think this is the worst example of excessive smoking/deferred maintenance I have ever seen. This discoloration may represent hundreds, if not thousands, of packs of cigarettes and one has to wonder how much nicotine might actually be present. Should this be considered a hazardous waste site? Who is going to clean up this mess. Can it be painted over? Should it be painted over? According to "How Stuff Works," Sixty milligrams of nicotine (about the amount in three or four cigarettes if all of the nicotine were absorbed) will kill an adult, but consuming only one cigarette's worth of nicotine is enough to make a toddler severely ill!

This is one of those instances where I am not willing to recommend that the buyer just get out the paint roller and "have at it." I think cleaning/removal by trained professionals is called for. Do you think my recommendation is:

A, Not strong enough (the house should be demolished);

B, Over the top (what are you smoking?);

C, Way over the top (I'd let my kids clean and/or paint);

D, No problem, I'll clean it up for the buyer myself; or,

E, Accurate? cigarette stained walls

Charles Buell

www.buellinspections.com

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Posted by Charles Buell, Seattle Home Inspector on 01/28/2008 08:20 PM

Comments (86)

safety hazards, ashi, nachi, seattle home inspectors, cigarette smoking, nicotine poisoning

Originally posted at: Seattle Home Inspector's Blog: Cigarette Anyone?

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86 Comments on Cigarette Anyone?

JAN

2008

Definately E. ! What is the rest of the house like?

I had a listing like this years ago. Makes you wonder what their lungs look like? I think the walls had to be washed and sealed with kilz or something like that because the nicotine kept seeping through the paint!!

I think E!!! Very accurate, this is not a just paint-over issue. That is absolutely disgusting, and definitely could pose a risk. I would definitely recommend some wall cleaning and treatment prior to painting.

WOW. I give it a "B" (Over the top what are you smoking?)

Hi Charlie,

Did the whole house look like that? Remember growing up, when most of the adults did smoke--and in the house! How there would be a "blue haze" in the kitchen. How about the relatives that would "light up" even before everyone else at the table was through eating.

These people were friends and relatives because my folks didn't smoke.

Charles - I have seen homes like this, but in all honesty, had the owner bothered to have painted every 3 - 5 years you would not be seeing this.

We bought a duplex a couple years ago and the walls were so thick with nicotine staining that I had to power wash them with OxyClean! It took me 2 rolls of paper towels and a whole quart of Windex to clean ONE living room window.

When we painted we added about 2 oz. of peppermint oil to the paint and it worked wonders. I'm told that pure vanilla will do the same thing for eliminating embedded odors in walls.

I pick "E". Another reason why people shouldn't smoke, bad for you, your friends, and your house!

Virginia, the rest of the house looked pretty much the same.

Audrey, nicotine stains can be very difficult to seal----lungs are a whole different matter:)

Steve, I lean toward "B" myself---just kidding:)

Leslie, it wasn't too long ago that just about everyone smoked. Remember when you couldn't see from one end of the airplane to the other?

Carol, I get right at that---just let me finish this cigarette:)

OH Gag ..... That is nasty. Just think.......If the walls are that Ugly from smoking ..... just think of what the lungs look like of that smoker. If they are still alive.

Sean Allen

Disgusting! Did the Seller die? (jk)

I have clients who would shoot me for taking them to a house like that. Some of my clients tell me right up front...."don't show me a house that has been smoked in".

I am wondering what your inspection report looked like when completed. I would not buy this!

Perhaps one day we'll have a checkbox in MLS for Smoked In/Not Smoked In and Pets/No Pets Occupying the house. It's a serious issue for people with allergies, and for most anyone if the house is as bad as this one.

I was in a house recently that was similar to this . It also feature several cigarette burns in the carpet. I'm surprised the place didn't burn down

Debe, owner off to the nursing home if I remember correctly.

Sharon, in relation to Barbara's response above yours, I think you may be onto something-----I can see the idea meeting some resistance though----a whole new level of "disclosure":)

If I was buying the house... All new sheetrock in the entire house and probably all new flooring as well. While I'm at, I'd probably gut the whole house.

Charles- somebody actually bought this? My husband and I rented out a property to a woman that smoked...yuck. When she moved out we cleaned,cleaned and cleaned some more. The smoke stains were everywhere. After that we painted with Kilz, and never rented to a smoker again.

WOW!!!!!

Wow...that is all that I can say!

Definitely E. I wonder what their lungs look like.

In the 70's we moved into my stepfathers' house (his portion of the divorce settlement) it was a beautiful custom home in the middle of an avocado grove, but his ex-wife was a heavy smoker and the smoke stains were awful in the master bedroom and bath! As I recall we painted the walls and re-carpeted the whole house.

TSP is usually the best way to clean walls like that but I don't know about that one. Clean, clean, Kilz, kilz & paint 2 coats & maybe youlle get it.

People who smoke in their homes don't realize they have just brought the prospective pool of buyers down about 50% not to mention the price of their home. I know people with asthma that would not be able to purchase a property such as this, even if it were the home of their dreams. I would certainly like to know BEFORE showing that the seller's smoked inside, I can then prepare my buyer and let them decide if they wish to view or not view the home.

You have to look at the expense of professional cleaning (walls have to be washed with bleach first and not store strengh either) then primed and painted. Next, if you have central heat/air, if the ducts/vents/and entire system (condenser & handler) can't be cleaned enough to remove all traces...you then have to replace everything which can be costly. For the right discounted price, a buyer may take it.

I would vote E for this one, but have seen ones that would get an A vote.

Hi Charles,

I was just going to mention what Cris Burlew mentioned above. Many people just focus on cleaning/repainting the walls but you would be surprised by all the ones who forget about having the ducts and handlers cleaned. If they do all the other work and forget the ducts, I mean...what's the point?

-Keith

Charles and Cait, houses this bad almost have to be treated like fire damaged houses----that smell can be really hard to get rid of. In this case the whole interior was to be gutted---floors and all.

Chris, great response. The insides of the heating ducts looked just like the walls---can you picture orange dust bunnies? There really is no way to effectively "clean" a house like this that isn't going to come back to haunt someone later in my opinion.

That is impressive, Charles! Wow is all I can say! I don't know too much about chemistry (my parents gave all of that to my brother who does research for the drug company), but I'd be surprised if that could be corrected without a good thorough gutting. Thanks for sharing!

Dan

This is Great! I went to a repo like this, but believe it or not worse! My buyers are specialized cleaners for Apt. and things like this and some of their stories are great; however, they were amazed at the amount of smoke that had occured in this home. The fridge had a film on it if that says anything! haha, its so gross and this is coming from an ex-smoker! Did this home sell?

I personally bought a home like this to fix up. It looked like it had off white pictures hanging all over the walls. I hired professional painters to come in. They ended up having to paint 3 layers of Kiltz & 2 layers of the paint color (including the ceilings). The house still had a weird smell to it. Luckly some smokers bought it!!!

I remember growing up at Grandma's house... the white walls and ceilings were no longer white. They would all go to the kitchen to smoke. And no ventilation. I can smell the stink just thinking about it!

Isnt grandma's house supposed to smell of freshly baked cookies?

Crazzzz E huh? You seem like a great up to knowledge home inspector! Congrats for being on Active Rain as I commend you!

That is crazy but oh well I am sure youv'e seen it all as well as all of us! So what was the final scenario...

Grab the pot out of the ceiling and run or did the sellers actually clean the place up, lol. Hope you guys made it through that one, as I don't think anything will help.

To all of the viewers of the blog and my comment, actually if you want to help get rid of smoke, take a huge bag of coffee beans and set them in the middle of a room and they actually absorbe the odors of the room, crazilly enuf they do... Wow another trick we all learned on active rain.

Checkitout and try....

Have a good one as I gotzx to go

I imagine another deal killer, is what I like to call a curry house. In South Florida we run into that every so often, and you know its in the walls, because alot of the homes only have tile flooring.

JAN

2008

You did the right thing by warning the buyers. The smell is all over and ceratinly not only on the walls.

Kind of thick! If the wals look like that, I wonder what their lungs look like.

Funny, but I know who featured this.....the AR guy that hates cigarettes :) Me, I would say a good cleaning and paint.......I have seen several like this or worse, and they do clean up......if we just get rid of the initial "uck" factor.

Yes, it makes me wonder what the ac ducts are like. I'd say it needs more than being covered up with paint. I wonder if those companies that come in and clean a home after a fire would know how to get rid of it so it's not under the layers of paint.

Wasn't nicotine used as a natural insecticide years ago?

"Home has been Specially treated with a Natural Insecticide to insure protection from pests for years to come" would make an appropriate headline.

CAROL'S COMMENT about adding Peppermint Oil to the paint is brilliant! As for people with severe allergies, even a new house presents hazzards (carpeting for example) Best advice, consult a professional painter.

great blog. I have seen this kind of thing once and we used kilz, after tsp and all new airducts.

Charles, Holy Cow! That's just disgusting. I can only imagine what these people's lungs must look like, assuming this wasn't an estate sale!

Yikes! I had no idea there were any smokers in Washington State! Thought you chased them down to California! And that picture is totally gross! All you AR puffers, look a it! That could be your house one day! Pee-You!

I've heard that you can't paint over the smell. Supposedly, you have to clean the walls first.

That is one of the most disgusting pictures I have ever seen. How could you live in that house?

Charles - Amazing!! Imagine what the lungs of the person who is responsible for this look like!

Charles - I'm with you. Probably E. Being a former smoker who is now disgusted at my past actions in life, I would say to either have it cleaned professionaly or clean it then paint it with a primer 2coat then a heavy glossy paint 2 coats at least. Sure is sad/funny what people will do huh in their lifetimes. It's been so many years since I quit I can't remembe how long it's been. I guess I'm cured of this insidious habit. thank god.

Hi Charles - that's just downright GROSS!! I've been in houses that I nearly choked to death in from heavy smokers, but that one is probably the worst yet. Imagine what the insides of those homeowners looked like - yuk!!

Ann

Charles, I vote to take the walls down o the studs. Especially if children were goint to live there.

Wow! I'm guessing they never reorganized their home either...lol. This issue could go beyond paint. Think ventilation!

Wow -- I have never seen anything like that before. So, what did you do?

Smells like money to me! Who's the agent? Is it for sale? Give me the info. I may be interested. These kinds of houses are just the kind of properties we love to buy.

Send me the junkers. I have buyers across the Country!

Dan, I had to go back in my records to see what happened to this home---my buyer walked.

George, back then it no doubt had "multiple offers":)

Melanie, under the new disclosure rules (created right here in this blog:), prospective smoking buyers will be autmaticly linked to "previously smoked-in" homes.

Dawn, does anybody's home smell like fresh baked cookies anymore?

Dave, I have heard of that with the coffee beans----never tried it though. Maybe you just leave the bag there forever and the house just smells like coffee forever. I have heard that caffine and nicotine are very close cousins chemincally:)

Chrystina, the problem with cleaning a mess like this is that the nicotine soaks into the wall surface and actually can't be "cleaned" off. It most likely can be sealed-in but it seems unlikely to me that all of the odors would ever be totally eliminated.

Paul, awesome point. Nicontine was and is used in pesticides----pretty scary yes? Love, the silver lining---turning the problem into a selling point:)

Allison, you are right----and I don't think there is any way to predict what materials will bother whom. There are a few that seem to be a "given" but even those don't negatively affect "everyone"----or everyone in the same way.

Patricia, very funny:), yes we do have a few smokers around these parts---being a former smoker myself, it does still amaze me though. It was quite a wake up call to go to Europe (Spain) and see everyone smoking the way it used to be in this country. I am surprised my buddy Steve hasn't chimed in here accusing me of posting pictures of my own house again.

Lisa & Robert, I think most former smokers react to this picture in a similiar fashion----are you sure you wouldn't like just one more cigarette? You can't tell me that if you absolutely knew a huge comet was going to "take out" earth tomorrow you wouldn't have one more---come on tell the truth:)

Lori and Brett, my buyers walked away so I have no idea what happened to the house. Taking everything down to the studs is definitely th best option---in my opinion.

Andrew, everyone is aware of kids and lead paint---how about kids and nicotine paint? Sometimes I wonder if it is possible to protect ourselves from ourselves given all the ways we attempt to do otherwise.

Oh, that is beyond disgusting. I wouldn't even set foot in a place like that. Take it down to the studs. Who knows, maybe 10 years from now we'll be warning our seniors/children/pets about the dangers of nicotine and paint like we do with lead and paint today?

Don't forget, we used to use asbestos to insulate EVERYTHING... We've come a long way but there's still a long way to go.

CHARLES - I think that you should be proud of yourself for giving your real opinion. Quite frankly, I can't imagine how a buyer (other than an investor or someone looking for a fixer) would even let it get to the home inspection stage. That house was disgusting. You can clean it, paint it or do whatever you want, but the only way to get rid of it is to sheetrock the whole house. I bought a house once that didn't smell like smoke, but it had an odd smell. Once we tore down the wall to renovate, the smoke smell was very strong.

Geez, that is disgusting! Raze the place!

Christopher Zabka, Zolve.com

Adam, thanks for your kind words, and you are right. Every wall outlet (Switches, receptalces and light fixture locations, can and do act like little chimneys sucking the nicotine smoke throughout the associated wall cavities----sort of like our lungs:) I had no idea this blog was going to turn into such an anti-smoking campaign:)

Nothing's better than a million smokes after a meal, sitting on a couch in the living room. This photo is so gross.

I think E as well. I cannot imagine someone smoking that much - without any kind of home maintenance throughout time . . .

Sharon

Unfortunately, that's what my great grandmother's home looked like. She lived in her home for over 50 years and smoked the whole time. When she died, my mom cleaned the walls and she let my sister and I help (of course this was 18 years ago). After we scrubbed off as much as we could, we put down a special primer and then painted.

Charles, as a non-smoker who grew up in a smoker's home, I would be able to smell the cigarette smoke if the walls were just painted over. Of course the sheet-rock should be replaced! I wonder if the home would ever stop smelling. . . maybe it's a scraper! Good post, good feedback~

Charles...

Ick...

Looks like a job for a HazMat team if I ever saw one.

P.S. Christy is correct. Home Depot sells a special primer that works quite well.

TLW...ROAR!

I've been through this. Audrey and others are right: wash the walls, let dry, seal with KILZ, then paint.

Works great.

My answer is "F" none of the above.... because I don't see this any worse than painting over lead paint to make sure it is "sealed" in and not toxic... LOL How is this allowed and many people don't see any problem with doing so because it is "legally" alright to do... but, yet you see this and have a problem with it... get a cleaning crew in there and wash the walls then put some Kilts on it and then paint... you'd be good to go.... Do I need to mention the mold that many of people hide....

My personal choice in an instance like this and with mold and lead is to just get rid of it and put up new dry way... because there is also that wierd smell that all of these have that often NEVER really go away.... now, I know this is not always financially feasible...but, this is just my opinnion on this quesiton....

On the other hand... had these people heard of "spring cleaning"..... LOL

Ohh God!! Please paint all the house

Was this an estate sale? Seriously, how could anybody live long enough to smoke that much?

Amazing that someone is trying to BUY this house. Wonder what the owner's lungs look like

Nobody could have come out of that alive.

WOW, that's sick. There's no better way to keep your house from getting sold than smoking in it.

Imagine that person's lungs. Yikes.

Happy Sailing ... _/) Paul -- www.eNewsletterSolutions.com

Oh my goodness. And the people who lived there are still alive?

JAN

2008

Charles,

I totally agree with you!! BTW, if that is what the room looks like, can you imagine the state of their lungs??

I had one like this early in my inspection career and the realtor was the buyer/flipper and he had a crew that had that home looking like new a just a few months! It was amazing! So, it's all in the price, anything can be fixed! May be one of the best deals if you're willing to put in the effort!

Thanks for the photo Charles! Enjoy your posts!

This one I've seen before. Over the years many appraisal inspections reveal heavy stained apartments and homes from tenant and owner smoking.

Thats pretty gross. They make sealants to paint over that with prior to painting, but I think I might want to replace the sheetrock for piece of mind; I would still feel I was surrounded by filth. That house must have been part of an estate sale.

Any cigar smokers out there. I just got back from vacation in the Dominican and had a couple of good ones, including a couple of Cubans.

Don't worry. I don't smoke at my house or on the job. My wife keeps me outside with the garage door open. You would think after 37 years she would be used to it.

But boy do I love the aroma of a good cigar.

Maybe they should make an air-freshener in cigar flavor, then you would both be happy.

Charlie,

The word "shameless" come to mind. 76 comments, 77 with me, and a featured blog. And all that for posting photos of your den. Wish I had a way to siphon off some of those points.

Steve, hey I quit last week----you must be thinking of someone else---I will be smokin by you in points---LOL.

MAR

2008

i'm buying my first home, a condo. The first day we visited I really got to loving this one place-- breezy, windows open-- but today I came back with a mold inspector and the house was shut up, and it REEKED OF SMOKE.

I'm really upset. I've already paid for a regular inspection because I was trying to be careful... and my heart's kind of set on the place. But it was awful. I and my realtor both got headaches almost immediately.

Now I'm trying to decide whether to give up on this place and move on. It is a buyer's market after all.

My question is this: does anyone know of some sort of experts one could call about removing smoke odors from a home? I need to figure out how likely it is I'll be able to eliminate the smell, completely, because I've got health issues that make it impossible for me to go "oh well, it's not too bad." It's kind of ridiculous for me to be spending $600 on a mold inspection when I'm just as allergic to cigarette smoke!

I would contact one of those company's that comes in after a fire causes smoke damage and cleans it up. There are cleansing solution that can be used, and sealants that can be sprayed afterwards that should fix the problem. As you can imagine, if they can remove the smell of soot, they can surely remove the cigarette smell. They're very efficient at their job, I've seen the results before.

Here's one: http://www.restorationsos.com/Fire-Damage/

Ellen, it will be difficult no doubt to eliminate the smell entirely. That said there are cleaners and other means of achieving satisfactory results like Michael has said. "Satisfactory" is somewhat subjective however, and you may always smell the odor because you "remember" smelling the odors.

Nicotine is difficult to remove because it absorbs into porous surfaces, such as walls and woodwork, and it is water-soluble, so it can bleed through latex paint. The best way to get rid of cigarette odors and residue is to seal them with a solvent system. There are several products on the market, but I recommend Zinsser's B-I-N, a shellac-based product. It's a favorite among fire restoration contractors because it permanently seals in smoke odors. The product has a strong hospital-like alcohol smell but no residual odor once the solvent has flashed off.

While it's not necessary to clean the ceiling and wall surfaces before applying B-I-N, I believe you'll get a better bond if you remove as much of the residue as you can.

TSP is a great cleaner, but it's impossible to flood interior wall and ceiling surfaces with enough water to rinse away its crystals, a residue that will interfere with paint adhesion. Instead, clean the walls using ammonia, which leaves no residue, mixed in warm water. The manufacturer recommends 1/2 cup of ammonia to 1 gallon of water for general-purpose cleaning. You can increase the ammonia to perhaps a 50:50 solution and even use it full strength for tough jobs (such as yours). Test your solution first in the worst areas to determine the proper mix for your project.

Michael, thanks for the addtion. BIN is a shellac base primer, which is what they would spray over smoke damaged wood in an attic that had been affected by fire to seal in the odor.

OCT

2009

i recently moved into an apartment that smelt like smoke and cat urine. i contacted pete from http://www.floodhelper.com a fire and water restoration company and they made the place smell brand new.... thanks!

JUN

2010

Charles,

Funny how times have changed. When I grew up almost everyone smoked. See this type of stuff was common. Now it really has changed. I guess thing really do change over time.

JUN

2010

Don, there does seem to be a shift in the number of homes that look like this-----guess that is what happens when a carton of cigarettes costs $80.00 :)

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Charles Buell, Seattle Home Inspector

Seattle, WA

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Address: Seattle, Shoreline, Everett, Lynnwood, Bothel, Kirkland, Bellevue, Mercer Island, Edmonds, Renton, King County, 17123 22nd Ave NE, Shoreline (Seattle), WA, 98155

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