Special offer

Discrimination By Scoring

By
Services for Real Estate Pros with The Real Estate Investment Institute 1retiredsage

 

My friend George Souto posted a blog about credit scores that I just had to expand on.Why We Have Credit Scores, How They Were Created, & How They Are Used?

It’s a good post as far as it goes!

George tip-toed around the reasons and all of the history and the ongoing problems. This takes nothing away from his post only expands on it.

As you said under the old system "Loan Officers" made decisions. If they didn’t like you, you didn’t get the money! Discrimination happened.

In about 1970 the race questions were removed from the 1003, application form they had been in the client ID box. Less than 6 months later they were returned to the bottom of the form, but below the signature line. None of this made sense because the man (mostly) making the decision had taken the application, he knew who the applicant was!

Next came the anonymous "Loan Committee." The "Loan Committee" was no different, the Fed’s required the racial information on the 1003 and the committee saw it, they looked at the bottom of the page, too! A few suits later and lenders looked for a better solution.

The financial crisis of 1973 saw a huge change in mortgage lending! Until then local banks and savings and Loans had dominated mortgage lending, but the Mortgage Brokers took over and dominated by the end of 1974.

Auto dealers had a 10 point system because dealers couldn’t be trusted to make loan decisions. Mortgage lenders longed for such a system it would end claims of discrimination and allow for automated decisions.

The Fair Isaac Company, FICO came up with a workable model, it’s arbitrary, it’s based on An The financial crisis of 1973 saw a huge change in mortgage lending! Until then local banks and savings and Loans had dominated mortgage lending, but the Mortgage Brokers took over and dominated by the end of 1974. It’s Anecdotal totally eliminating common sense in lending! But, raciest it’s not!

FICO and it’s competitors final allowed for automated mortgage lending! I was the first broker in Nevada on line with Freddie Mac, a friendly in Vegas beat me with Fanny Mae and Gennie Mae.

It was great calling the wholesalers and telling them I had an approved loan what would they pay for it?

There was and there remains a problem! It’s true most people with good credit histories have good FICO scores, but the many people with bad scores are very credit worthy!

To fight discrimination and for continence we/the scoring agencies have discriminated against every one who doesn’t fit the common model! Being different isn’t a protected category.

Good people with low scores fostered the "sub-prime" industry. Most "sub-prime" loans are successful, contrary to public opinion.

I’ve worked under the old system, where it was who you know and do they like you, and I’ve worked under the knew system based on who you are! I can control who I am, but can’t control who dislikes me!

I love the convince, but loath the stupify! I have a solution, allow automated approvals, but disallow automated turn-downs, require human review and allow common sense approvals.

 

Posted by

Bill

William J Archambault Jr

The Real Estate Investment Institute

wja@reii.org      Cell 832-259-7078,      Houston 832-582-8415,       Las vegas 702-516-1569

     http://www.reii.org  Back Cover One House At A Time http:www//reii.orghttp://www.flippingforfunandprofit.info/ http://www.billarchambault.com   

From my past: GRI 1975, FLI 1974, Catalyst from a client 1974 an agent that makes things happen, REII, The Real Estate Investment Institute 1995.

http://www.reii.org

©William J Archambault Jr   ©The Real Estate Investment Institute   ©REII

Comments(33)

Gene Mundt, IL/WI Mortgage Originator - FHA/VA/Conv/Jumbo/Portfolio/Refi
NMLS #216987, IL Lic. 031.0006220, WI Licensed. APMC NMLS #175656 - New Lenox, IL
708.921.6331 - 40+ yrs experience

Bill:  I've seen each of these steps ... if that's any indication to you as to how long I've been in the business and how old I am!  And I'd say I have to agree that each system has its merits and downfalls.  A combo approach would probably work best.  Adding the "common sense" you suggest at the end of your post would do wonders for the industry as a whole.  Do I think we'll see that common sense approach any time soon?   Nope, I don't ...

Thanks for a look into history!

Gene

Jun 10, 2013 12:38 AM
Roger Stensland
Keller Williams Realty Puget Sound - Maple Valley, WA
Let's Move!

What I never really understood is that for those who are less credit worthy, it is made harder for them to make their payments because the interest rates for them is higher than for those with good credit scores.  Yes, I know that this is supposed to account for their added risk, but it never makes any sense for it to make it it more difficult to make the payments if you are already having a hard time maintaining your credit score.  Hmmmm.  When I asked my credit card company why my rate went up, their answer was because of the current economic crisis and that many were not making their payments and as a result, the people who kept current or even paid off their balances were punished with higher interest rates. 

Jun 10, 2013 12:48 AM
Andrew Mooers | 207.532.6573
MOOERS REALTY - Houlton, ME
Northern Maine Real Estate-Aroostook County Broker

Way to tag team and expound, expand on another AR post where we get the full meal deal. Thanks!

Jun 10, 2013 01:14 AM
Than Maynard
Coldwell Banker Heart of Oklahoma - Purcell, OK
Broker - Licensed to List & Sell - 405-990-8862

Those that have no credit are discriminated against. If you have no loans and always pay on time with cash or check you cna't get a loan, because you don't have a good credit score....but, you can have too much credit and have a lower score even if you have a perfect payment history.

Jun 10, 2013 01:35 AM
Lyn Sims
Schaumburg, IL
Real Estate Broker Retired

Tricky word discrimination. FICO will turn out to be another discriminator but being automated you can't see the actual person. Case in point - one person gets 200 off for a short sale on their credit & another only gets 100 taken off.  Doesn't make sense but they say it's fair overall?  We will see shortly that it is not.

Was in a seminar just last week that told of a story on credit recovery after short, foreclosure, etc.  The higher the credit score the longer it took to recover to your premium score (800+).  Seems like the model is based on a mediocre scoring of 650 or so to be honest.  I plan on posting those slides when I get a few moments.

Jun 10, 2013 02:03 AM
William J. Archambault, Jr.
The Real Estate Investment Institute - Houston, TX

Donald,

Thank you.

An understanding of the intentions is the best we can do with allot of government meddling! Just look at "APR" they’ve had truly great intentions yet after 40 years they’ve still not got it right.

Bill

 

Ed,

Indeed it does! Problem is to many Mr. Potter’s.

I was 2 when your father bought that house. My parents didn’t buy their first home for another 3 or 4 years, I remember part of the house, but none of the details.

Bill

Michael,

Thank you!

Bill

Ed & Celia,

It is a "point of view" based on living with in the industry since 1969.

Best Regards!

Bill

 

 

Doug,

Thank you!

It’s easer to explain the history and intentions than the insanity created.

Bill

 

Norman,

Sadly, you are right!

Bill

 

Fernando,

Witch country?

I know a little very dated Canadian thanks to some Canadian FLI brokers and AR.

Bill

 

Bill, Mr Wagner,

Bless you, for mentioning that. It use to be almost exclusively portfolio lending, lenders that lend their depositor money. Then in 1973 we had a huge stealth financial crisis, if you were in the Midwest there wasn’t enough money! If you were in California there was way to much money. We didn’t have weren’t using a system to offer available money where it was needed, then along came the mortgage brokers, they moved money everywhere. Then came the Keeton S & L debacle, Congress jumped in and destroyed thousands of S & L and little banks for no reason other than a lack of public understanding.

Loans do have to be saleable. Brokers don’t have a problem because they sell their loans before they’re closed. Banks and Mortgage Bankers have a problem because they sell their loans after they are closed.

At the bank I worked for we did many of those drive by appraisals, the procedure was a "Corporate Officer" as opposed to just a "Loan Officer" would take a mortgage application. If it was before lunch, he take another "Corporate Office" by the property and then over the most expensive lunch in town he show them the application and if they agreed that the applicant was a good risk and the house look like it was worth it they’d approve the loan. Then they’d call the applicant and explain that it was a risk, but because it’s you we’ll do it. When you like to close Monday or Tuesday? My official title was "Jr. Corporate Officer" so I got every dirty job that came along, but I was often called because I also had a company car and credit card. The Board never meet one loans.

Bill

 

Richie,

Me too!

But, there are problems with loans done after 1974, that’s all loans.

As to how many babies got thrown out, how many laws do we have?

+

Bill

Gene,

I’d say at a a minimum you’re over 60.

Government intervention is occasionally well intentioned, but never involved common sense.

Thank you.

Bill

Roger,

Are you really "less credit worthy" or are you just different from the rest?

There are two answers to your question.

1. Government intervention is occasionally well intentioned, but never involved common sense.

(If a person is going to have trouble paying 7% let’s help him out and charge him 29%, and assure his troubles.)

2. You’re charged more because you’ll pay it!

Bill

 

 

 

Jun 10, 2013 02:37 AM
William J. Archambault, Jr.
The Real Estate Investment Institute - Houston, TX

Andrew,

Thank you!

George got it well started.

I’m just older than he is, but he’s one of my favorite kids. 8>))

Bill

 

Than,

Absolutely! They don’t fit the FICO model.

A real Loan Office with authority to do common sense lending could have helped them. In the mean time try a Local credit union.

It’s the same with the guy with "to much credit," but what is to much credit if you can and do pay your bills on time? I couldn’t help the most credit worthy applecart I ever had, I did call a CU and got him the money the same day on his signature at 1/3 the cost I could have give him if he’d been normal.

Bill

 

Lyn,

Yup!

Scoring doesn’t discriminate against any normal member of a protected class.

Bill

Jun 10, 2013 02:52 AM
Venus Howard
Vindiola Group - Commerce City, CO
CDPE, CIAS, SFR, GRI

Sometimes we fail to realize everything has a reason and a history.  Thank  you for sharing this knowledge. 

Jun 10, 2013 03:04 AM
William J. Archambault, Jr.
The Real Estate Investment Institute - Houston, TX

Venus,

You're welcome.

Bill

Jun 10, 2013 03:27 AM
Steven Cook
No Longer Processing Mortgages. - Tacoma, WA

Bill - this is great post explaining how we got to where we are.  One little problem with your solution -- there seems to be a dearth of common sense these days - so you would have to have test to prove person who was being hired to do such work actually had some common sense!

Jun 10, 2013 03:54 AM
Ronald DiLalla
Century 21 Discovery DRE 01813824 - Anaheim, CA
No. Orange Cty Real Estate

Thanks for sharing the history of the process..very interesting..

Jun 10, 2013 04:17 AM
Frank Harper
Idaho Family Real Estate - Boise, ID
Broker/Owner, Realtor, GRI, SFR.

Great information! This seems to be a pretty hot topic!

Jun 10, 2013 04:28 AM
Jon Zolsky, Daytona Beach, FL
Daytona Condo Realty, 386-405-4408 - Daytona Beach, FL
Buy Daytona condos for heavenly good prices
Very interesting timeline and all the changes. That history part is new for me
Jun 10, 2013 06:26 AM
Bryan Robertson
Los Altos, CA

I wish we had exactly what you describe but I seriously doubt the idiots in the banking industry would ever make it happen. 

Jun 10, 2013 06:59 AM
William J. Archambault, Jr.
The Real Estate Investment Institute - Houston, TX

Steven,

I agree about the endangered status of "common sense."

It would require some vetting of loan officers. All I can say is that I was a small loan officer, assistance manager 14 months out of the Marine Corp when the bank called me. On Friday I had $1,500 authority I started at the Bank on the next Monday 10 days later the Board met me for the first time, the next morning I had portfolio authority $5,000.000.00 just like the Chairmen/owner* in all lines except mortgages that required two corporate officers I didn’t get corporate status until the next quarterly meeting.

*The Chairman owned 80% of the stock, we’d never met until I started work, but they knew my work.

Bill

 

Ronald,

You’re welcome.

My comment of George’s post got a little carried away.

Bill

 

Jon,

The strange part is it’s new to so many.

Always good to hear from you,

Bill

Jun 10, 2013 07:14 AM
William J. Archambault, Jr.
The Real Estate Investment Institute - Houston, TX

Bryan,

So do I, but I'm not holding my breath!

No one gains when common sense dies.

Bill

Jun 10, 2013 07:16 AM
MichelleCherie Carr Crowe .Just Call. 408-252-8900
Get Results Team...Just Call (408) 252-8900! . DRE #00901962 . Licensed to Sell since 1985 . Altas Realty - San Jose, CA
Family Helping Families Buy & Sell Homes 40+ Years

I agree with your statement: "allow automated approvals, but disallow automated turn-downs, require human review and allow common sense approvals."

Jun 10, 2013 09:03 AM
William J. Archambault, Jr.
The Real Estate Investment Institute - Houston, TX

Michelle,

I except that most knowledgeable people would agree with us too.

Bill

Jun 10, 2013 11:17 AM
Rob Arnold
Sand Dollar Realty Group, Inc. - Altamonte Springs, FL
Metro Orlando Full Service - Investor Friendly & F
There definitely needs to be some balance in the loan process. Let more marginal people get a loan if they put down a large down payment.
Jun 10, 2013 11:50 AM
William J. Archambault, Jr.
The Real Estate Investment Institute - Houston, TX

Rob,

Why?

There is no correlation between down payment and loan problems when values fall drastically and only limited connections when value goef up. It's all about education.

Bill

Jun 10, 2013 12:46 PM